logging Instrument flight time

[dynamite dean]

Can somebody clear this matter up for me. ......

This has been covered on pprune somewhere so if anyone has it please advise otherwise a new reply to this would be of great benefit to myself.

I am used to looging Instrument time as the South African air law says '......Instrument time may be logged whilst sole manipulator of the flight controls with reference to the flight instruments , bla bla...' and as a rule of thumb we would use approximatle 10% of total flight time as optimum. This SACAA is the same of the US system too.

However since I have returned to the UK I have heard things are done here when you are under an IFR flight plan. Have I got this right ? That here in JAA land you can log IFR time so long as you are on a IFR flightplan?

I spoke to a pilot who had 5000hrs and he sais he had 3000hrs of I/f time I couldnt believe it! I thought wow this guy has lived permanent in the clag until he said 'oh no mate thats whilst Im on a IFR flight plan'

I have spent years gaining, scraping IFR time in accordane with other CAA's and now I am here in the UK pilots are logging this without any skill level employed just merely by virtue that one is under IFR regardless if you are in blue skies.


I am now in a flying job flying in airways these days but cannot bring myself to simply put all of my flight time in the IFR column where as previously I would log purely the bit that I hand flew in the clag, and you sure knew when you had done some 'real I/F' flying. If all this is true then must I go back over the years and re adjust my whole log book?!
Many thanks and I hope you can put me right.
DD

[Denti]

It is correct, under JAR you can log the whole time you are under an IFR Flightplan as IFR flight time. However you still can log IMC time if you want (in the remarks collum or a free one if you have) which would be roughly the same as the US system. IFR time under JAR is not in regard to sole reference to instruments for flying but rather about the operational condition of the flight.

[wondering]

I gave up logging IFR time since everybody wants something different written down. :}

Anyway, almost all my flying is with an IFR flight plan. I still enjoy looking out the window and try to figure out where we are from FL350. Although, dont you just hate it when the odd passenger asks you where we are and you just cant pinpoint your possition to a physical location on the ground and then you try to explain that we navigate via waypoints and airways. Ok, this has come down since we have this locked door policy :p

[Centaurus]

Australia must be one of the few countries where logged true instrument flight time refers only to time in IMC, which in theory is a mark of flying experience. Even that however, is diluted by the fact the regs allow monitoring of the automatic pilot in IMC to be counted as "true" IMC instrument flight time.

IMC flight on autopilot logged as instrument flight time is nothing more than legalised cheating. The problem in Australia is that some operators demand a minimum of (say) 100 hours instrument flight time as part of minimum hiring qualifications. In turn, this leads to falsifying of log book hours, as in general weather is CAVOK for much of Australia making true hands on instrument flight time (unless under the hood) difficult to find.

[Semaphore Sam]

I've logged over 15,700 hrs; less than 2000 of that is "actual instrument". This whole 'instrument time' is bogus...it goes back to the '30's, when Doolittle 'flew blind' for the first time, and most time was logged either visual, or dead. Of course...you fly on autopilot 'in clouds'...instrument? How about at night, with no moon? Do you use instruments, even though you see lights on the ground? Of course...does that mean 'night VMC' is...actually...'instrument time', even when on autopilot? How about 9 hours at FL350, on autopilot? This whole 'Instrument Time' is archaic; I suggest you log whatever you need to qualify for whatever you need...once you are IFR qualified, the concept of 'Instrument Time' should be superfluous. This is one 'pencil whip' I think in order. Sam

[Jet_A_Knight]

In places where i fly, a moonless night means no horizon to reference off - those odd lights on the ground can blend into the ones in the sky too - and only a fool would fly 'visually' in these conditions.

Flown with primary reference to instruments, i believe it is reasonable to log as actual I.F.

Logging I.F time any time you fly under the IFR is bogus, or at cruise with the AP on.

At the end of he day, one has to be honest with ones self - and be able to back up your figures with demonstrated ability in the sim or on a check ride.

[Semaphore Sam]

Jet_A_Knight said:
Flown with primary reference to instruments, i believe it is reasonable to log as actual I.F.
Logging I.F time any time you fly under the IFR is bogus, or at cruise with the AP on.

This is contradictory! Suppose you fly 'in cruise with the AP on', and, at the same time, 'with primary reference to instruments'? What is it...VMC time, IMC time, IFR time? The whole question is stupid...do you actually...not refer to the instruments in cruise, and, if a deviation is noted, not take action to correct back to correct indications, based on instruments? If you do, you've flown primarily based on instrument indications...and the derivative question as to what kind of time to log, is...even more stupid!

[Capt Fathom]

1000 hrs actual IF in 32 years. Doesn't sound like much, but that's 31 hours per year, and that does appear to be a lot of instrument flying. Who am I kidding?? :uhoh:

Must be time to stop logging it I think! :E

[oceancrosser]

I quit logging day/night IFR/VFR when I acquired my ATPL over 20 years ago. I do not do any GA flying so all my flying is on an IFR FPL.
My issuing authority has never complained when I have renewed my licence, every 5 years.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Semaphore Sam, before you give yourself an aneurysm, i meant what I said about primary reference in the context of night operations with no discernable horizon.

In this country, we have recency requirements wrt IF time - so we have to log it.

[411A]

Well, Sam just about summed it up, I think.
I have noticed younger pilots log books which show 1500 hours 'instrument' hours, with a total flight time of 3000.
Total nonsense.
One wonders, just who do these pilots think they are kidding?
If a new hire pilot showed me this kind of 'log' I would throw him out the door, and perhaps down the stairs...:(

[TheGorrilla]

Isn't every other pilot younger?? In which case throwing him down the stairs may prove difficult!!! :\ :\

[misd-agin]

Applicant shows up with large amounts of IFR time logged? Out the door he goes...

I think my highest IFR time in a month was 8%.

Flying jets the mount of time way down. Havn't cracked 30 hrs/year this decade. .3-.5%.