ADF/DME for the IMC rating

[grasspirate]

Following some post regarding adf/dme, I've noticed that the caa requires only the provision (for the flight test) of 1 VOR or 1 ADF and there is no mention of DME. So, if you only intend to fly to the legal minimum of the IMC rating and carry 2 garmin 430 on board, does it mean you do not actually need to have an ADF and/or DME ?

[scooter boy]

In UK air space you need ADF and DME if you are conducting a flight under IFR irrespective of whether or not the aircraft is on the G-register and irrespective of the other equipment you have installed.

Rules is rules I'm afraid,

SB

[foxmoth]

In UK air space you need ADF and DME if you are conducting a flight under IFR irrespective of whether or not the aircraft is on the G-register and irrespective of the other equipment you have installed.

And the source of this info is??

You can of course fly IFR in a non radio aircraft with no navaids at all - in VMC you can even do it safely (you do not have to be in IMC or CAS to fly IFR):ugh:

[High Wing Drifter]

Agree with Foxy, the only navigational requirement for IFR in Class G is a compass. Hence the legality of non FM immune VORs outside of CAS.

[denhamflyer]

ADF/DME is for IFR in Controlled and Upper Airpace ONLY

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10105.PDF

[scooter boy]

ADF/DME is for IFR in Controlled and Upper Airpace ONLY

I stand corrected. However these items are mandatory for any meaningful IFR flight i:e instrument departure from instrument airport to instrument arrival at another instrument airport.

IFR with a compass only in uncontrolled airspace - rather you than me
SB

[tmmorris]

Yes, but 'with a compass only' supplemented by a handheld GPS? Much less silly.

Tim

[High Wing Drifter]

Quite! Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting that a compass is all you need, just pointing that it is all that is legally required, your options are open :ouch:

[foxmoth]

However these items are mandatory for any meaningful IFR flight i:e instrument departure from instrument airport to instrument arrival at another instrument airport.

On an IMC rating this is often not possible anyway due to most airfields with an instrument arrival being in CAS. Much more realistic is departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.:p

[unfazed]

The IMC Training syllabus can be completed without ADF if your aircraft doesn't have ADF however I had such a situation with one training aircraft and when I asked the examiner for his views he said that ADF tracking would need to be demonstrated during the test

[IO540]

As written above, no legal need for any of the equipment if in Class G.

Moreover, IMCR training is routinely done as VFR flights (as far as ATC are told) under the hood, which is how you can fly beaten up old bangers to Class D airports for IMCR training.

As regard sensibility, it always suprised me why DME was not taught in the basic PPL. It's the simplest radio nav instrument to use by a long way. I used to use it on my pre-PPL solo flights. Just dial in a few DMEs and you have a position fix - just like that.

[scooter boy]

"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.:p"

Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time?

SB

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I asked the examiner for his views he said that ADF tracking would need to be demonstrated during the test
that may be one examiner's view, but it is not based on a legal position or CAA guidance.
The ADF remained untuned for the duration of my IMC test. In fact, I don't think we were in range of an NDB.:)

[Nipper2]

Last time I did my IMC renewal the DME was U/S. With agreement from the examiner we used the range function on the GNS430 instead. IIRC we even flew a 'DME' arc (and yes, I know these are not in the IMC sylabus).

[unfazed]

Agree that you don't need ADF to train for or pass an IMC test but if the MAP uses an NDB then you won't be using that approach legally and if you are in the soup and you miss then what ?

[S-Works]

IMC pilots are so good they never have to do a miss........ :p

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Agree that you don't need ADF to train for or pass an IMC test but if the MAP uses an NDB then you won't be using that approach legally
Common sense aside, do you have a reference for the legal argument?

Edit: coming back to this post a day later, I think I must have misread the text I quoted because it is pretty obvious that an ADF would be needed in this case. I can't remember what I though I read!

[High Wing Drifter]

CAP 393 Schedule 5 defines the requirements for radio navigation. Schedule 4 for equipment in general.

[Islander2]

In response to:
"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.:p"
Scooter Boy wrote:
Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time? ... and your reasoning for making that association is?

[unfazed]

Common sense aside, do you have a reference for the legal argument?

Was always taught that if the approach is an "ILS/NDB/DME R24"

Then to legally fly the approach you need an ILS/NDB and DME (no dme then still possible but higher minima and radar required )

Sorry no legal reference as such

[foxmoth]

There is a lot of talk of "to fly this approach you need an ADF", I do not think this was the argument, the post started if you only intend to fly to the legal minimum of the IMC rating and carry 2 garmin 430 on board, does it mean you do not actually need to have an ADF and/or DME ?. This does not mean there will be no restrictions on flying without an ADF, and I do not think anyone has claimed as much, just that you can fly using an IMC rating without an ADF/DME.

[scooter boy]

In response to:
"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.:p"
Scooter Boy wrote:
Quote:
Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time?
... and your reasoning for making that association is?

Life experience, common sense and also reading a great many CFIT reports over the years.
They go something like this:
"Pilot X took off in his little plane in poor weather, flew into cloud at 500ft and when he got to his destination (over the hills) the weather was poorer than forecast, he descended through the cloud and hit a hillside/crane/forest the wreckage was found etc..."

Home made instrument procedures scare me to death. The thought of a midair due to meeting somebody else doing the same thing but in the opposite direction with nobody talking to radar or having TCAS also scares me.
My IFR is generally in CAS on an instrument flight plan from instrument airport to instrument airport (with TCAS). This is the choice I make, others are welcome to make their own. I do like being alive though, and it is my intention to die of old age after a particularly fruitful enjoyable life.

SB;)

[foxmoth]

lew into cloud at 500ft and when he got to his destination (over the hills) the weather was poorer than forecast,
Not what I was talking about at all, though even this should be safe if properly planned with decent alternates - I was thinking more of going from (say) Kemble to Goodwood, cloud over the hill but the South coast clear - not an infrequent situation and quite a realistic flight to use an IMC rating on.
My IFR is generally in CAS on an instrument flight plan from instrument airport to instrument airport (with TCAS). This is the choice I make, others are welcome to make their own. is not an option for most IMC rated pilots, this normally needing a full IR.
People do need to understand the limitations of the IMC rating and operate within both the rating and their own limitations.:hmm:

[Crowe]

quote:
Quote:
My IFR is generally in CAS on an instrument flight plan from instrument airport to instrument airport (with TCAS). This is the choice I make, others are welcome to make their own.
is not an option for most IMC rated pilots, this normally needing a full IR.
People do need to understand the limitations of the IMC rating and operate within both the rating and their own limitations.


Just curious, why would this type of flight normally require an IR, as long as you didn't use airways or class A airspace?
You can file an IFR flight plan without using airways, and it's fairly easy to avoid class A and still maintain adequate terrain clearance.
I've used my IMC rating to fly to and from LBA for example under an IFR flight plan.

[S-Works]

Flight in CAS in these circumstances is understood to be Airways.

Yes it is possible to fly around the country IFR without entering the airways system and able to do it on an IMC. I did the same for a long time before doing the IR. BUT it is very limited as there is so much airspace low down in this country.

Generally speaking though SERIOUS IFR flyers are flying from Instrument airfield to Instrument airfield in the airways system. Much easier than all that messing around trying to cross airspace, keep clear of ice and stay above MSA.

Try planning an IFR flight from LBA to Manchester today and see how successfull you are on an IMC.

[foxmoth]

My IFR is generally in CAS on an instrument flight plan from instrument airport to instrument airport (with TCAS). This is the choice I make, others are welcome to make their own.
To be fair, you can plan and fly this no problem - on an IMC rating though you will just be doing it illegally.:mad:

[IO540]

It is indeed possible to file an IFR flight plan (within the UK) without entering Class A but one doesn't normally do it, for any of the following reasons:

1. It is not a legal requirement

2. It causes confusion to the ATC unit to which you sent the FP. IFR FPs are "supposed to be" sent to Eurocontrol and need to be error checked against the CFMU (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/chmi_public/ciahome.jsp?serv1=ifpuvs)website checker. However, many routes thus filed (partially or wholly outside controlled airspace) fail this check and one has to resort to tricks like CPT360000 instead of CPT, or worse. Probably as a result of this hassle, some ATC units, when they see what is "obviously" a flight plan which is non-airways, they handle it as a VFR one which means it gets sent to dep & dest units only.

3. There is no implied enroute IFR clearance, which makes the whole exercise a double waste of time because you still have to ask each ATC unit for each bit of Class D for a transit - and they have not heard of you before you call them up.

4. It confuses some pilots who think that just because they have (somehow) successfully filed an IFR flight plan they are entitled to a service from the IFR controllers (e.g. London Control) but the moment you call up LC they will assume you have Class A privileges and they get mightily confused when you tell them you can't go into Class A.

So, for flying within the UK, one may as well file a VFR flight plan. You can still depart straight into cloud (from a Class G airport, anyway), and you get exactly the same enroute privileges (basically none) as with an IFR (OCAS) one.

The whole IFR flight plan thing is really messy. Bose-x is also right about IFR being easier and it is much easier than VFR for long flights (across Europe) but if you filed an IFR flight plan from say Goodwood to Exeter you will end up going all around the southern UK, being sent up to FL150 or whatever, and what is the point?

The easiest way to get around the southern UK (or anywhere else in the UK where terrain is not a problem relative to CAS base) is to depart VFR, stick to Class G, fly in cloud as required (for this you need to change to IFR but in Class G that is a "state of mind" thing only; you don't need to tell anybody), talk to as few units as possible (perhaps LARS for an RIS), and if you are likely to need an IFR arrival (due to low cloudbase etc) then phone up the destination ATC beforehand and check with them it will be OK. Then, when you call them up, tell them you are IFR and ask for an ILS or whatever (**).

For a longer flight, say 200nm+, I would probably go "airways" at FL100-160 (with oxygen). This really comes into its own for much longer routes than that. But IMC Rating holders (unable to go into Class A) are best doing things as described in the paragraph above this one.

(**) Yes it's a cr*p system but this is the result of the UK (a) allowing IFR in Class G (a good thing) and (b) not providing any meaningful radar service to pilots thus flying (a bad thing).

[Crowe]

Actually what you've described above does cover most of the actual flights I do which involve some IMC (always get a radar service in cloud).

Did the IFR flight plan once or twice on the advice of an instructor to get used to it.

[High Wing Drifter]

IO540, BoseX,

Slightly on a tangent, but what's the deal with out of airways IFR in Europe? Do you get any cooperation, hindrance or just left to get on with it on your own?

[S-Works]

There is actually no concept of IFR outside the airways system in Europe until you actually get into the airway and then you get some really cool DCT routings. I have crossed vast expanses of France in a direct line using the GPS after filing airways flight plans. I just file SG/S on my equipment list and the rest is easy.

[IO540]

what's the deal with out of airways IFR in Europe

As bose-x says, but I think the technical issue is whether the country has allowed DCT legs.

Some allow DCT legs, up to a specified max length, and for these you can file a flight plan which uses DCTs. In others (Albania is one example) the max DCT length is zero, and your filed route has to be strictly on the airways.

Once airborne, the filed plan is largely (sometimes completely) out of the window, all bets are off and ATC will send you all over the place. You can refuse, or request a left/right diversion, "due weather" in which case they have to co-operate.

What most countries do not allow is UK-style "informal IFR" where you can be Class G, non-radio, no flight plan, and pop in/out of cloud as you wish. I think this is a wonderful privilege. In fact it formalises what pilots the world over do anyway illegally. Most of those that think otherwise (i.e. that the UK should be covered in Class E) have an IR (I have one too) and think that everybody else should have one too ;)

[englishal]

Isn't it only the UK which makes such a mountain out of a mole hill with regards to these magical airways, which look so damn wide on the chart? Then again, I don't fly airways in the UK ;) It is not that uncommon to file a /G FP (GPS) in the USA and pick up your clearance as "Direct ABC" - just happens ABC is 300nm away. I tried it once for a laugh (not expecting to get it, but I was feeling lazy :) ), filing from somewhere near San Francisco to Long Beach as Seal Beach VOR (LGB IAF) direct. When I picked up my clearance it was "as filed".

[IO540]

You can file DCTs in Europe too; subject to the max DCT leg limitations. This is a huge subject; the way you can fool the CFMU computer into accepting a flight plan. I have heard of far more ways of doing it than I can remember.

Assuming DCT is allowed at all, you can file an FP like

dep A DCT B DCT C dest

with A B C being either proper waypoints or faked ones like ZZZ360000 (where ZZZ is a VOR, and using the VOR-relative notation fools CFMU into not realising this is in fact on the airway). Or you could use ZZZrrrddd where ddd is a real distance away from the VOR. You can also specify waypoints using lat/long; that stops CFMU realising anything. Most of these tricks fail for various other reasons and knowing those is a closely guarded art which you don't learn without wearing a leather apron and attending certain ceremonies involving an open grave with a skeleton at the bottom of it :)

Anyway, the often repeated thing about IFR outside CAS being prohibited in Europe isn't actually true. Once you are under ATC control, you can do whatever they authorise but you have to be on an IFR flight plan and "in the system". If you look at the relevant AIP, not many actually prohibit IFR OCAS explicitly.

In the UK, you can do a Goodwood-Blackbushe run in the cloud, IFR, legally. In France etc you do exactly the same but you do it illegally.

[tmmorris]

Most of those that think otherwise (i.e. that the UK should be covered in Class E) have an IR (I have one too) and think that everybody else should have one too

Entirely agree. It's just that we make getting the damned thing so hard. I'd love to be able to afford one...

Tim

[Islander2]

In response to:

"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.:p"

Scooter Boy wrote:

"Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time?"Queried as to the reasoning for that association, Scooter Boy wrote:
Life experience, common sense and also reading a great many CFIT reports over the years.
Well, I can only say that your life experience, common sense and reading of a great many CFIT reports results in a very different conclusion to mine!

The thread was about whether or not you need to have ADF and/or DME for U.K. IFR flight. Foxmoth had made the pertinent observation that, for many IMCR pilots, IMC departure to VMC arrival was a more common scenario than departure-to-destination IFR flight, and one in which (he implied) a GPS was of more use than ADF/DME. You then suggested this was a CFIT accident waiting to happen - an association I genuinely don't believe is supported by the facts.

Your arguments in support of this assertion, based on your experience, common sense and reading, seem to be: (i) the weather may be poorer than forecast at the destination; ii) home made instrument procedures are especially dangerous; and (iii) IMC OCAS is dangerous without a radar service or TCAS.

Analysing these:

(i) the weather may be poorer than forecast at the destination. True, as it may well also be on a CAS IFR flight, or for that matter on an everyday VFR flight. And the consequence is identical … weather below pilot/aircraft capabilities/minima, then you divert. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the advisability of departure in the circumstances Foxmoth describes, nor with the appropriate equipment fit for the aeroplane.

(ii) home made instrument procedures are especially dangerous. In some cases: ‘yep’, in others: ‘oh really’. Surely it all depends. Foxmoth was talking instrument departure only, not instrument arrival, and in all probability from one’s home base. For the vast majority of GA aerodromes, is this really more dangerous than instrument departures from within CAS in respect of CFIT (I’m leaving aside engine failure considerations in a single here, you were talking ‘CFIT’)? I’m very, very confident I can find vastly more CFIT departure accidents following departure from within CAS than you will ever find for departure from outside CAS.

(iii) IMC OCAS is dangerous without a radar service or TCAS. If this is a measure of unacceptable risk for you, I assume you never, ever fly VFR! In the thirty years I’ve been flying in the U.K., I can recall numerous VFR mid-airs but there hasn’t been (AFAIK) a single IMC mid-air - actually, I understand you can even go back a further thirty years without finding a U.K. IMC mid-air!

The basis of your argument appears to be one of implying a strong correlation between CFIT accidents and IFR OCAS. Sorry, but you need to extend your reading of accident reports! The truly substantial number of CAS CFIT accidents, both GAT and CAT, over my time in flying gives the lie to this argument.

By far the largest cause of IFR CFIT is loss of situational awareness, whether single crew or multi. And that can kill you inside CAS just as easily as it can OCAS!

Which takes us right back to Foxmoth’s post!! Across my thirty years of flying, the single largest improvement in situational awareness for GA pilots has come from GPS.

Given a flight in the circumstances Foxmoth describes, would I choose ADF/DME or an IFR-approved GPS? There is simply no contest! The moving-map GPS, especially now with terrain alerting functionality, MASSIVELY reduces the risk of CFIT.

Oh, BTW, my flying is also normally IFR on an instrument flight plan in CAS in a TCAS-equipped aeroplane (obviously with ADF and DME!). But there really is no evidence to suggest I'm safer doing that than on the occasions I fly the type of flight Foxmoth describes, even if I were to disable the ADF/DME on those flights.

[scooter boy]

Islander2 I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one. You clearly view yourself as something of an authority here and in the usual condescending way are attempting to humiliate me by proving my assertions wrong.

"The basis of your argument appears to be one of implying a strong correlation between CFIT accidents and IFR OCAS. Sorry, but you need to extend your reading of accident reports! The truly substantial number of CAS CFIT accidents, both GAT and CAT, over my time in flying gives the lie to this argument."

There are always going to be more IMC accidents with an origin in CAS as that is where the vast majority of the (meaningful) IFR traffic is in the UK and the rest of the world. Statistical skew.

What started this was the usual predictable smart-arsed comment about only needing a compass to fly in IMC. When I made my original statement to the effect that ADF and DME were essential equipment it was from my viewpoint of somebody who is almost always in CAS while conducting IFR flights. Those who choose to hop from one boggy field to another over hills and through the soup are far braver than I. My subsequent posting was to this effect.

Here are some examples of CFIT OCAS to refresh your memory:

The accident report has not yet been published on the seneca that tragically went down in the alps a couple of weeks ago but that is a pretty recent example for you - 3 fatalities CFIT OCAS(possibly). I await the definitive report.

How about the turboprop that was destroyed flying a home made night approach to Dunkeswell a couple of years ago. - Home made approach night IMC CFIT OCAS. They hit trees on the approach.

The C172 that crashed in the highlands 4-5 years ago with all on board miraculously escaping. IMC CFIT OCAS. Only got away with it because they were lucky enough to hit the flat top of a mountain rather than the steep side.

The light aircraft that hit one of the Welsh mountains en route from Welshpool to Liverpool a few years back- 2 young lads going to a stag weekend - 2 fatal. IMC CFIT OCAS.

If you look at the US stats there is also no shortage of CFIT fatals.

Not wanting to beat my chest or belittle anybody - my flying experience can also be counted in decades and I too have an IR.

Finally, I was not casting doubt about the excellent addition that GPS has made to situational awareness. Far from it, I wouldn't fly without it and would far rather have it than ADF/DME.

We all make judgements based on evaluation of the risks in aviation.

Mine clearly differ from yours.;)

SB

[foxmoth]

A couple of points here
- the CFIT accidents quoted would most likely have had ADF & DME - the whole point of this thread, not IFR inside or outside CAS which is a separate argument.
Even the airlines sometimes end up flying outside CAS at times (e.g. into NCL)
In VFR you are often not separated by radar, and often near misses are not sighted until they are over -so in IMC without RIS you are in the same situation but with less aircraft around because a lot will be staying on the ground.
In many years of flying IFR I have probably only used the ADF seriously three or four times apart from a height check on some ILS approaches - many do not even have this any more - DME is a more useful tool and not as redundant as the ADF.

[Islander2]

scooter boy,

If my post came across as condescending and an attempt to humiliate, I sincerely apologise. I can assure you that was unintended. I do strongly disagree with the logic of, and evidence for, your CAS vs OCAS IFR assertion, though, and I would have hoped that persuasive argument could prevail.

Of the examples you quote, the night IMC flight into Dunkeswell is plainly irrelevant, since Foxmoth's scenario that sparked this debate was for an arrival into a field "with decent(ish) wx." And in all of all of the others, I am left genuinely bemused as to why you think OCAS was a relevant causal factor. They merely confirm that CFIT happens in IMC! They don't even provide circumstantial evidence that the risks are higher OCAS cf inside CAS, let alone suggest anything that has statistical meaning!

Let's just leave it at that.

SoCal App,

There is nothing to fathom out about my comment! It was a factual observation, as far as I'm aware, that there has not been a mid-air collision in the UK in IMC for more than 60 years. Make of it what you will, but it hardly provides supporting evidence for this being a high-risk activity!

[S-Works]

In the US there is really no reason to put oneself in that sort of position.

For the moment maybe, but with the introduction of user fees you may find yourselves moving towards the UK way!

I gave an interview to an AOPA USA TV documentary and magazine recently as part of a fact finding mission on how user fees effect us and translating them into effect across the pond.

There is nothing wrong with IMC flight without a radar service. You have to remember that so few have IR's or current Instrument experiance in JAA land that on a day when you are flying in IMC outside of CAS the big sky theory just gets a whole lot bigger.

[unfazed]

Just to focus back on the original point "DO WE NEED ADF"

I think it is a practical query relating to UK OCAS not USA where there is excellent radar coverage and full and readily available ATC service.

So to fly in IMC conditions of course you don't need an ADF and GPS is a much better tool for situational awareness. Yes you can even fly a glider in IMC with only a compass and many glider pro's do just that

But on the practicalities of getting from point a to point b OCAS using IMC rating priveliges - you already have a challenge on your hands and if you cross off the list any approaches that require ADF then you are limiting yourself even more. Yes you can use GPS but in UK no approved GPS approaches as yet and most aircraft are fitted with VFR only approved GPS with out of date databases.

So yes you can fly without ADF but if you have it you get more options

[IO540]

There is an argument (on which I have no view either way) that an ADF is not necessary to carry or to use in order to fly an NDB IAP in Class G.

In Class D (or higher) you have to carry an ADF simply because you need to carry one for IFR in CAS.

But there is no UK legislation prescribing equipment usage and this is what leads to the above view.

In the USA, the approach plates apparently form part of the aviation law (14 CFR) and an IAP over there does require the carriage of the implied equipment. But even there no usage is mandated (Part 91 of course).

Bit of a tangent really, but worth examining perhaps.

Bose-x is right about the big sky. I am also sure that a lot of U.S. VFR pilots do fly in IMC - they are just smart enough to not write about it. The FAA is much more proactive in going after violations than the CAA. If you depart "VFR" in the USA and zoom off straight into IMC and a few witnesses report you then AFAIK you are likely to get done for it. Whereas in the UK this is normal practice, especially in 2000kg+ twins. Over there you need to make sure nobody sees you, so basically you have to do it enroute only.

[mm_flynn]

I am also sure that a lot of U.S. VFR pilots do fly in IMC - they are just smart enough to not write about it. The FAA is much more proactive in going after violations than the CAA. If you depart "VFR" in the USA and zoom off straight into IMC and a few witnesses report you then AFAIK you are likely to get done for it. Whereas in the UK this is normal practice, especially in 2000kg+ twins.
IO,
As someone who learned to fly in the US and then moved over to the UK, my view is the whole training and pilot culture is fundamentally different with regard to what I will call 'VFR in IMC'. From the very beginning you are taught

1 - you must be IFR rated and current to file and fly IFR
2 - if the weather is below VFR minimums you must be on an IFR flight plan
3 - if you can not see other aircraft (i.e. are IMC) then there is a significantly increased risk of collision.

In the UK the differences in the VFR and IFR rules is so small as to be negligible (other than the obvious one that if you are in IMC then you must be IFR) as compared to the US, where there are lots of instrument rules (i.e must be on a clearance, must have VOR check in 28 days, must have filed an alternate in certain weather, must carry increased fuel reserves, must be on an airway, above MORA or on a published approach, etc.)
Because getting an IR (and IFR clearance:) ) is so much more achievable (something like 40% of pilots have an IR) there is no excuse for operating IMC and not IFR. As such it is viewed by the regulator, the trade bodies and (I believe) by most US pilots as reckless.

It took my a long time to come to grips with the fact that most UK IMC flight relies on statistics and a flat country to be safe, rather than ATC and charted IFR routes.

[Fuji Abound]

1 - you must be IFR rated and current to file and fly IFR
2 - if the weather is below VFR minimums you must be on an IFR flight plan
3 - if you can not see other aircraft (i.e. are IMC) then there is a significantly increased risk of collision.

Whilst I dont on the whole disagree - you obviosuly havent been to L2K on a day that starts out bright and sunny but clags in later - just watch the exodus of Brits - very very few with IRs and nearly as few with current IMCRs :) .

[mm_flynn]

The three points summarise IFR as it is seen in FAA land. As a long time resident over on this side of the water I am fully aware that 'VFR' flight is conducted in 500 OVC002. I am less sure if our continental cousins are quite as 'creative' with their interpretation.

Part of the difference is the FAA view that see and avoid works in VMC (hence the ability of IFR and VFR traffic to be in close proximity in Class E-C using eyes to avoid hitting each other and conversely the need to be on a clearance to operate in IMC) and the CAAs apparent belief that see and avoid doesn't work. Hence, allowing flight in IMC with no separation and the need to treat class D airspace as functionally equal to Class B.

[IO540]

An IR is readily achievable in the US and there is no excuse to fly otherwise.

and, absolutely crucially, they have plenty of airports with IAPs, so there is much less need to do DIY approaches out there in order to obtain utility value out of GA.

I do have an IR, right here in the UK, and an IFR plane which can do everything short of flying a synthetic (GPS) glideslope on the autopilot, yet much of the UK is not flyable much of the year. Well, it would be if I was willing to do GPS letdowns in OVC005 or my home airfield had an IAP with a ~ 500ft MDH so I could actually get back home afterwards!

This isn't going to get sorted anytime soon, because nobody is willing to pay for the ATC services to control IAP usage at non-ATC airfields. One could self-announce of course, but that needs far more imagination than is to be found in this business...

Re user fees, I read a couple of US mags (Flying and AOPA) and it's fun to see how US AOPA fights the FAA on everything. Their position on the latest IR currency proposals is interesting too, and not unreasonable IMHO.

If the USA got Euro-style >2000kg enroute charges all hell would break loose, with everybody going VFR, and they actually could, legally-ish much of the time due to the 18000ft VFR ceiling, whereas flying VFR around Europe is quite impossible to do without going into cloud on just about every flight.

[S-Works]

"introduction" of user fees.. You are joking - that is light years away.
AOPA is so strong here in the US, that this is going to be an interesting fight and the battle plan is already in place.

I am well aware of the plans afoot hence the reason why I was interviewed for American TV. I don't think it is as far away as you are kidding yourselves!!

[Nardi Riviera]

Pls gentlemen, could anyone be so kind as providing a foreigner with a link or name of publication in which I can find regs on the mentioned IMC Rating?
Tried the CAA webpage, but stopped short of the language barrier.

Regards, NR :)

[S-Works]

As you wish.......

[Nardi Riviera]

Sorry to disturb the ongoing dogfight, but could anyone in UK be so kind as to enlighten me regarding the IMC-rating?

Someone in norway had heard about it, but nobody here seem to have any details. We are curious as to what it means.

Regards, NR :confused:

[Fuji Abound]

Nardi Riviera

Firstly, it is a UK only rating which explains why most Europeans have not come across it. Moreover, it only extends your rights in the UK, with the small exception that for UK pilots it removes the restriction of flying above an undercast in VMC in Europe.

In the UK many would say it is a poor man's IR. Some would say its sole purpose is to "get you out of trouble" and some would say it is very good for "getting you into trouble". Equally there are those who use it in earnest, and are as competant on instruments as those with an IR and better than those with a rusty IR!

However to achieve the rating I think you are currently required to undertake around 15 hours of in flight training and sit one multiple guess paper. You should end up being reasonably proficient on instruments, but would do well to gradually gain more expereince if you intend to use the rating like an IR.

Within the UK you can then do pretty much everything you could do with an IR in IMC except fly in class A or depart or arrive when the flight vis is less than 1,800 m. There are those who will tell you the minima for an approach are higher than for those with an IR - but they are wrong.

Why do we have the rating. Not sure really, maybe goes back to a time when the powers that be realised the weather is rubbish most of the time and the rest of the time the forecasting was even less predictable here than in Europe with the lack of information of weather coming of the Atlantic. It would never happen to day and doubtless the rest of Europe would love to see the end of the IMCR. In fact if only the rest of Europe knew I suspect the pilots would love to see a Europe wide IMCR or at least a sensible private SEP IR.

Never thought about whether you could tag an IR on to say a Norwegian PPL for use in the UK in a G reg or perhaps with consent from the CAA in a Norwegian reg - I guess you could not.

[Nardi Riviera]

Thank you very much, Fuji.

Where can I find the CAA reg's on the rating? (Don't know what you call them in the UK.) If on their webside, I was hoping for a link?

We were thinking more along the lines of whether our own CAA might find the idea interesting in some foreseeable future.

Regards, NR :)

[Brooklands]

Nardi,

You can find all you need to know about the IMC rating in Lasors (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591), which you can download for free (its about the only thing the the CAA gives away). See section E3.

Brooklands

[bookworm]

LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf) section E3 gives information on requirements for obtaining and revalidating the IMC rating. (Note that this is an 8 MB document covering corresponding issues for all UK and JAR-FCL licences and ratings.)

The Air Navigation Order 2005 Schedule 8 Part B (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20051970.htm#sch8pB) describes its privileges.

[Nardi Riviera]

Now we're talking. Thanks ever so much, guys! :D

Then my assigned mission is completed.

Regards, RN :)