Nimrods grounded rumour

[Tappers Dad]

I have heard a rumour that the Nimrod fleet has been grounded due to corrosion has anyone heard anything ?

[Exrigger]

Extract:

The RAF's ageing fleet of Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft was grounded last night after a crash in Afghanistan claimed the lives of all 14 service personnel on board in the worst single military loss of life in action since the Falklands conflict.

The remaining fleet of 15 aircraft operated by 20 crews was having emergency checks before being allowed to resume operational flights.

[Exrigger]

My apologies for any distress or upset, but the telegraph entry was dated today and with Tappers Dad asking about the rumour that this had occurred I assumed this was what he was asking about, apologies again :\

[Tappers Dad]

No I heard the rumour today 22nd Febuary 2007 from someone who has many friends at the Kinloss Base.

[dodgysootie]

Whilst realising what a sensitive matter this is, This is a public forum who ANYBODY can read and I dont think the operational capabilities of our Air Force should be discussed here. Mods please note.
DS

[The Gorilla]

And pray tell just what operational carabilities of todays air farce are you referring to? This is a rumour board and Tappers Dad was asking about a rumour to see if it is confirmed. :confused:

[reddeathdrinker]

Corrosion? Definately not.

It's a lack of teapot spares, not enough to go around apparently......

[Mightycrewseven]

Careful of the "humorous" insensitivities on this thread lads.

The thread was started by Tappers Dad, and if indeed he is Tappers (one of the crew on the ill-fated Nimrod) Dad, then he has a genuine heart felt reason to ask a serious question.

Sir

If you are Ben's dad, I would like to say he was one of the nicest students I had the pleasure of teaching - I remember his graduation day well.

Regards

M7

[Truckkie]

Only a rumour - but I heard from a friend of a friend they've been grounded because of another weapons bay fuel leak

Only a rumour though!

[Archimedes]

The thread was started by Tappers Dad, and if indeed he is Tappers (one of the crew on the ill-fated Nimrod) Dad, then he has a genuine heart felt reason to ask a serious question.


M7 - Tapper's Dad's first post on this site was, IIRC, a 'thank you' for the condolences expressed on the appropriate thread regarding the loss of his son.

[Mightycrewseven]

Thanks Archimajig, I'm now aware of that.

M7

[scroggs]

This is a public forum who ANYBODY can read and I dont think the operational capabilities of our Air Force should be discussed here. Mods please note

Noted and rejected. You're about 10 years too late.

Scroggs

[Rafsux]

"Grounded" is a loose term really........

Also could read:
Just happen not to be flying while we decide what's wrong (as we can't admit to there being a serious problem), then decide whether we can bodge something together to feasibly get them in the air whilst not have (too many) people believe that they should have been consigned to scrap a long time ago.

Oh, and who's door to lay it on should we have gotten the bodge wrong. :\

[speeddial]

Now on BBC News

"All Nimrod MR2 aircraft grounded for safety reasons, MoD says. More soon."

[SkyHawk-N]

This is now being mentioned on the BBC News web site on the LATEST banner. More news soon....

(Two posts at exactly the same time)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sky now showing it and no surprise the lead story was accompanied by footage of a J model herc landing............journo's:rolleyes:

[mary_hinge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6390737.stm

All UK military Nimrod MR2 aircraft have been grounded as a precautionary measure after a routine safety check uncovered problems with a fuel pipe.
The decision was taken in the last 48 hours after checks on one aircraft, the Ministry of Defence has said.

The fleet was grounded while the issue is investigated but some of the aircraft have already been cleared.

The MoD said the decision should not pre-judge an inquiry into a crash in Afghanistan in September.

[Tappers Dad]

I was right then they have been grounded. 6months after my son and 13 others were killed they are still finding problems with fuel pipes. I pray for all those flying these aircraft but you guys must fight your corner as well.The MOd needs to spend money now and fix these problems

[Spikey T]

Let’s hope that the Groundies fix the snag soon and let the Mighty Hunter free to patrol. My thoughts to ISK folk tonight, new, old and past, chilling reminder it may seem – but remember a pipe is a pipe, it can be fixed, the old lady has many hours left on the clock – Heroes last forever! God Bless

[Jackonicko]

Channel 5 said it was a 'dent in a fuel pipe' but did show footage of an MR2....

[BleepBleep]

Why do we get to know about these things as an organisation through the media rather than our own internal network. I am on DII and there was no indication or release on it by the time I left work and it was only when I saw the Si O' clok news that I found out.

Tappers Dad, your continued concern for those of us in the service is most gratefully received. With regard to your comments about praying that the MOD will spend money to fix problems I am not willing to hold my breath. Our political masters will say everything tthey think will sound convincing in the media, but without any real care about those they are willing to commit to any whim they have. Why else would that idiot the(G)hoon extend the life of the VC10 fleet by another decade at least just before he left office when they are falling apart.

[Laboratoryqueen]

The care and concern shown by Tappers Dad is also shared by family of other members of the crew. I for one would like to see the money, respect and backing given to our forces to which they should, rightly, deserve. I don't ever want to know that another sister is going through what I am by losing my brother Steve in this way, just as no parent should as in the case of Tappers Dad.

[BleepBleep]

I'm sorry I didn't think that any of the most unfortunate (poor expression but I can not find a better one at the moment) bereaved elatives were of a different opinion. Your loss was felt by all of us and our sympathies will be with you for a long time to come.

Laboratoryqueen, I fully agree that we deserve everything that you say; however, while the armed forces are just a means to their end (we keep their place at the global "big table") we never will be part of their grand plan - especially the unmentionable one form North of the Border (he must by now be referred to in the same manner as the Scottish Air Marshall!!!).

Let us see what next week brings.

[Tappers Dad]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=nimrods-grounded-in-fuel-line-scare--%26method=full%26objectid=18668952%26siteid=66633-name_page.html

The Scottish Daily Record says"A check revealed damage to the fuel pipe of at least one of the planes - five months after a Nimrod crashed in Afghanistan, killing 14 British servicemen. "

Five months later and they are still finding problems !!!! What is going on.
To Quote the old Edwin Starr record.

Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives

[TheSmiter]

You might think a keen, enquiring mind (political or journalistic) would be asking questions about the ability of the Nimrod force to fulfil the array of military tasks (including SAR - not including pie and tea consumption) to which it is committed, despite:

a) Regular 'groundings'
b) the serviceability rate
c) the apparent haemorrhage of experienced air and ground crews

See PPrune threads various

You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

[r supwoods]

Dent in a pipe ... how else were they to get it round the wiring?

[ukmil]

this is blown way out of proportion, just because we lost one, the MOD is twitchy, and decide to release this
in the 'REAL' world be get this on a monthly basis [ i am a Tornado Techie BTW]

we get these problems at least once a month, if not more, where we recieve a PWI, of a problem found on a jet somewhere, and the aircraft are technically 'grounded' until the suspect area is checked. usually, this is done on the night shift, so any aircraft that pass, are free to fly the next morning, no probs. We often get these, 'dented' and 'chaffed' pipe checks.

i am sure the Rimnod is no different, and this check is very 'routine', but the MOD felt the need to release this due to the problems in the press the airframe has been having

les face it, we have lost less Rimnods that Tonkas, so why dont they report every Tornado Fault?

[Tappers Dad]

Why, because no one tells the press.
Why because 14 good brave men have not been killed in one.
Why, because you haven't got people like me watching your backs.
People who lost loved ones in the Nimrod accident.
People who are prepared to tell the press when they find a problem in the same area of fuel pipe that was responsible for the explosion that killed their son.
THATS WHY

[Biggus]

UKMIL

Because one Nimrod out of a fleet of 20 odd (don't know the exact number) is about 5%. What would the loss of 5% of the Tornado fleet equate to in terms of numbers of aircarft ...?

The Tonka fleet has the option of a Martin Baker let down if there is a mechanical problem, there is a safety net, what can a Nimrod crew do....?

Because, unfair though it might be in terms of attracting more attention, the loss of a Nimrod results in a large loss of life. What would be the reaction if we lost a Tristar with 250 on board and it was considered that it may (and I stress may) be partly due to the age of the aircraft........?

Need I go on........

[The Swinging Monkey]

UKMIL

What a lot of tosh you speak, and I hope you retract your comments; they are unfounded, inaccurate and display a certain amount of total ignorance on youor part. There is absolutely no way on this earth to compare Nimrod with Tornado, other than they are bothe aircraft. As others have said, a problem with the GR4, pull the yellow and black handle. A problem with Nimrod, tick with it a fight it. Oh what a fool you are.

If you think that Nimrod ops are not the 'real world' then you are sadly mistaken. On the other hand, perhaps you could point out what 'ops' the GR4fleet are embarked on at the moment.

Tappers Dad, I knew your son, a fine boy who I know you and your family are immensly proud of, and rightly so. I apologise on behalf of UKMil, who I can assure you DOES NOT represent the views and opinions of the vast majority of us.
Kind regards to you and your family, all of the boys are still very much in ou thoughts Sir.
TSM

[nimblast]

Tappers Dad, well said.
ukmil, you really need to grow up!!

[ukmil]

you seem to have taken my post out of context

firstly, let say, how can i 'grow up'?? I am probably old enough for some of you 'flyboys'to be my offspring. I have over 20 years Service, as an RAF technician, over which time i have worked the Rimnod, and many other frames, which do not have the bangseat.

The post I raised, was purley to show, that these problems are very much routing [not just in the Tonka world, but in every frame i have worked on in my career]. These checks, such as the fuel pipe incident happen evey week, on EVERY aircraft we have in our inventory, but NEVER get issued to the Press. The fact the MOD has chosen to do this, is merley to try and not 'cover up' any problems that might be 'leaked' to the press about the rimnod.

[FATTER GATOR]

:* Over 20 years experience and your profile says you are aged 35. I would have thought that being in the RAF since you were 15 or younger might have taught you a few things about tact and when to apply it.

As for being old enough for us 'flyboys' to be your offspring; well this one is old enough to know bulls%&t when he reads it.

[Da4orce]

UKmil you state that:

These checks, such as the fuel pipe incident happen evey week, on EVERY aircraft we have in our inventory, but NEVER get issued to the Press. The fact the MOD has chosen to do this, is merley to try and not 'cover up' any problems that might be 'leaked' to the press about the rimnod.

The MOD initially refused to confirm or deny this latest safety incident, the MOD only issued a statement following pressure from relatives of those lost on XV230 and from a handfull of well informed journalists.

We all have the same goal, that is to prevent there from being another 14 grieving families, now you may think that is naive but as the oldest brother of Sgt. Ben 'Tapper' Knight lost on XV230 if I can do anything to prevent someone else feeling like I do then I will move heaven and earth to do it.

Just because these problems are a daily or weekly occurance it doesn't mean that they should be accepted. I am not in the military but I have worked in some very large central goverment departments with there fair share of problems that threatened lives and I know it is very difficult to do anything from the inside. If everyone involved in the Nimrod fleet was entirely happy with the safety of the plane then they why are so many voting with their feet and requesting transfers or ground tours?

[360BakTrak]

And friday before last not 1 airframe was serviceable...out of how many??!??!?

[xcbx]

I think its quite right that the presss were informed this time, and if they are being grounded as often as you are saying, then why are they still in service?! Years after the new Nimrod is due I might add!!

As the daughter to one of the crew members on board the Nimrod crash in Afghanistan, I long to find out exactly what went wrong on that fatefull day. And while they may only be rumours at the moment, any little bit of information that might help me understand is greatly appreciated. Im sure Tappers Dad will agree with me. We need answers!

Charlene Bell
Flt Sgt Gez Bells Daughter

[london06]

I have witnessed first hand how hard all the Linies at Kinloss work to make the Nimrods as safe as possible. The pressure the whole Nimrod fleet is and has been under is causing experienced people to PVR because they are fed up with spending half the year in the Gulf with no answer to the problem of an aircraft that is just past its sell by date.

My concern is for all those who fly in the Nimrod as I can not believe they are as safe as they should be in light of the state of the air frame and the strain put on all those involved in working on it.

In Sept 2006 I felt it was horrifying that it would take the loss of 14 men to make the higher command sit up and take notice. The fact that they have not taken action is sickening.

[Tappers Dad]

Yes Charlene I agree with you but we don't just need answers we need the TRUTH !!
I think the everyone at Kinloss is doing their best with what is a vintage aircraft. Its the MOD and the Government that needs to spend more money and resourses in order to make the Nimrod fleet "Fit for Purpose".
The RAF//MOD are responsible for my son's death and the death of all those on board. They have a Duty of Care under the Health and Safety at Work Act (1974) to ensure that the safety of the Crew, this overrides the Military needs of NATO.
If the Nimrods were a civil aircraft they would have been permenently grounded !!As no-one would want to fly in them.

THE FAMILIES OF CREW 3 120 SQUADRON ARE NOT GOING AWAY AND WILL NOT BE SILENCED UNTIL THE TRUTH IS KNOWN.

[BEagle]

Interestingly, at a meeting to discuss engineering aspects of another ex-civil airliner now being used by the military, one of the delegates announced that he'd been told by others that the Nimrod AAR gallery uses single skinned pipes.....:eek:

Is that really true?

He said that "They'd considered it an acceptable risk for a military aircraft.....25 years ago when it was installed".

[Tappers Dad]

http://www.agingaircraftconference.org/all_files/8/8b/134_doc.pdf

Page 17 of 41
This makes interesting reading about the 1995 Fire on board a Nimrod.Stating "The fire defeated all the design redundancies that were designed to protect the aricraft".

[Jackonicko]

Have they resumed AAR yet?

[NimAGE139]

Reply to BEagle. Yes the refuel gallery pipes in the bomb bay are single skin.

Jacko, no AAR as yet...

Tapper's dad. I know personnally that a number of engineers trying to fathom out this problem are passionate about finding an answer. What they find and what they report ( or are allowed to ) is another matter! I hope too that we get the truth.

[Padraig Murphy]

As an ex-Norman linney can someone help in answering the questions below?

The original AAR fuel lines fit carried out by RAF others like myself during and after the Falklands were originally above the floor leading down from the aircrew escape hatch in the cockpit to the centre of the aircraft around the galley area, as a young FLM I had to inspect these lines every AF, BF & TR for dents, perishing etc. I also had to carry out a nitrogen purge on a regular basis to ensure lines where clear of fuel and vapour, a task that is also required to be carried out after each AAR by the flight engineer.

Q1. BWoS got the contract to hide those fuel lines (damage prevention and ascetics), below the floor however the inspection task was not carried out until the next primary, minor servicing etc i.e. not on a daily basis, is this potentially an error in design in that it made it near impossible for any linney to detect or inspect the fuel lines? Is the BWoS design potentially deficient?

Q2. Don't BWoS have the current maintenance contract for the Norman fleet? Jobs originally done by qualified linney's going to aircraft builders not knowledgeable on operational constraints. Or doing it for £'s rather than heart, sad state of our services today!

Q3. As MRA4 is effectively the same structure as the MR2P or R1 what are the chances that the same design with the same issues is being utilised for the MRA4?

As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.

Tappers Dad I really feel for your loss and all those who have lost love ones on the most recent tragedy and the other aircraft over the years. I still have a relation still flying on these old but reliable jets every time something else happens I worry for him and his family. I really do hope they get to the truth but past experience tells me they'll try to hide it or brush it under the carpet because of operational security or “in the best interests of the country”, I hope I'm wrong!

[LFFC]

Lord Drayson said the following in the House of Lords (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70226-0005.htm) on Monday the 26th Feb:


I am concerned about the Nimrods. Ongoing concerns about certain aspects of the fuel system on board are getting very careful attention. As I speak, the Nimrods have been able to be released to carry out their duties in Afghanistan.

[Exrigger]

Padraig Murphy:

Q1: How can hiding the pipes be an error in design or BAES being deficient, the pipes would have been checked and leak checked before all the flooring was put down. The reason it was done was to make the trial/temporary AAR capability permament and to prevent experienced lineys missing something and removed one more arduous task from the flight servicings.

Q2. Correct, but the guys doing the work are ex raf with experience on type additonally the work carried out by these guys is way beyond lineys skills, so if you are inferring that civilians and BAES are responsible for these accidents you are treading on very thin ice.

Q3. MRA4 is not basically the same structure as it is virtually all brand new build , not added bits to an old airframe, and contrary to the rumour you are starting they design out any potential problems found in earlier marks, its called continual improvement.

Your comment: As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.

This is an RAF comment that the 'linneys' used quite a lot. Also as an ex liney and an ex BAES employee you do not appear to know what you are talking about. Its these comments that do no help to the people who have lost family/friends and is pure speculation and conjecture.

[Rafsux]

You sure they haven't been AAR for the last couple months NimAGE, did they not start again within a week or two of the tragedy? I have heard that they had - apologies if I am mistaken though..........

[Tappers Dad]

They did resume them about a week after the Nimrod was blown out of the sky.However everytime they find a problem with the fuel pipes (which appears to be every few weeks) they suspend them again.:ugh:

[nigegilb]

Crews were flying AAR sorties 4 days after the tragedy and AAR training also resumed shortly afterwards.

Does anyone know if the Nimrod MRA4 has fuel tank protection?

[toddbabe]

Nope no fuel tank protection!
Don't worry though they are only going to get shot down if they are flying, and there ain't much of that going on at the mo!

[nigegilb]

Right then, we will have to do something about that.

[Tappers Dad]

If my sons Nimrod had the fuel tank protection he may have been here now as they were only 3 mins from Kandhar when the wing blew up followed by the rest of the aircraft. Also I have just found out via the RAF Kinlosss website that his aircraft XV 230 was the first Nimrod delivered to the RAF in 1969 !!!!!!!
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/aboutus/nimrodthroughtheyears.cfm
37 years old and they have the cheek to say on there that "The Comet has an excellent record as both a military and civilian passenger transport, having accumulated some 1.5 million flying hours. " Yea right . so I did a bit of research and found this .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,355194,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,355194,00.html)

Passengers appeared to have had no fear of this stretched Comet, but what it had lost on the way to production was the confidence of airlines. Only 74 were sold worldwide: De Havilland had expected orders of up to 1,000. Just as well perhaps as, in all, 20 Comets crashed, killing nearly 500 people.
GOOD SAFETY RECORD I DON'T THINK SO :mad:

[enginesuck]

To be fair Tappers dad the comets you refer to crashed because they had rectangular windows, (stress at the corners) causing the pressure shell to breech at altitude. This was engineered out after and I believe it cured all of these problems.

[MarkD]

not to mention that while they figured it out the Comet lost its' leading edge advantage and the American manufacturers caught up.

[Double Zero]

Maybe this is worth a mention.

My father is a life-long engineer, mostly on aircraft, starting with Seafires ( not great idea, especially at Salerno ) and Hellcats ( great idea ) on Escort carriers, WW2.

He then had a very long hands-on career with Hawkers, ending as main criew chief on development Harrier 2.

I was also on that development team, having first trained in engineering & aeronautics, to join the technical photographic instrumentation side.

Dad & I both agree, after a great deal of study & some direct experience, that DeHavilland were responsible much more than any others for flimsy aircraft.

The Mosquito is remembered in a cosy glow, but how about all the people killed when it was falling apart, let alone being almost unsurvivable in event of an engine out on take-off.

I once photographed a colleague's retirement, upon which John Farley stated " he is the only man I know who's survived a Mosquito engine failure on T.O. "

Even when they built heavy great tanks like the Sea Vixen, they still had flaws enough to overstress & break airframes quite easily ( see the 'widowmakers thread on Pprune ) - and things like the DH 108 were unforgivable - though I admit a lot of the blame there lies in people deciding to continue flying the thing.

It's a sad fact, D.H. have always been fragile designs sticking their necks out - or rather the occupant's necks.

My very best wishes, and condolences, about your son, Tapper's Dad.

[Tappers Dad]

My son used to quote this dialogue to me from the film "A Few Good Men (Usually when I asked him what he was doing ).It is in answer given to Tom Cruise's character Telling Jack Nicholsons character he wants the TRUTH.

"I know deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honour, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post."

I know I am a pain but I only want the truth .And yes I and millions of others are grateful that there are guys like you who are "On the Wall" .I too sleep under the Blanket of Freedom which you provide.
I am sure some people would prefer me to say thank you and be on my way but I am not going. All it takes is a "FEW GOOD MEN" to stand up and say NO enough is enough as they have with the Herc crash and the TRUTH will come out about the Nimrod XV 230 explosion.

NB.You caught me having a bad day :bored:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

TD,

The last thing you EVER have to do on here is apologise for having a bad day :=

If you keep asking you will eventually find out I just pray it does not take you as long as some of the other good folk who frequent PPrune are taking to right injustices.

[enginesuck]

Can you really compare a mosquito and a comet/nimrod? Its like comparing a Ford Anglia and Ford Focus. The Nimrod is a good platform. I have no problem flying in one. It certainly isnt flimsy.

[nigegilb]

TD the crew of XV179 were 6 minutes away from a coalition base when the outboard section of their wing separated due to a fuel tank explosion.

[toddbabe]

I am not sure what your point is nige?
Tappers dad everyday must be a bad day after what has happened, you really don't need to apologise, I am sorry to say this but I don't ever think they will find out what happened to XV230.
Without the evidence it is going to be extremely difficult and without any firm evidence I believe they will steer clear of contraversy and rule out any firm link to AAR or related fuel problems that we have seen since.
Sincerely hope that I am wrong and that they have found something but doubt it v much, I think the mood on the Rod fleet is at an all time low with A/c unserviceabilities, op tempo and general disquiet being common place.
People are ill at ease moaning in public but not too deep down people are peed off and dissatisfied.
This can't continue or long term The RAF and the kipper fleet will suffer to the point of breakdown.

[harrogate]

... sorry to go on a tangent, but found this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4

Not sure if it's been posted before. Obviously Tapper's Dad knows about it.

Stunning.

Myspace at last has a just purpose!

[Strato Q]

harrogate - can you check your link, it does not seem to work.

Works now, not sure what my problem was. Thanks

[harrogate]

... works fine for me. Tried it on 2 computers, no problem.

:)

[fergineer]

Harrogate.......A fitting tribute to the guys for sure, perhaps you should start a new thread with them on it will be well recieved. Brought a tear to the eye that is for sure, whoever did it thought a lot about the guy and the 120 tribute the same, get it the publicity it deserves.

[theotherhalf]

Tappers Dad
I know its late, but hopefully never too late, to say I'm sorry for the loss of your son. I too lost in these blasted wars. I lost my future, only the past is left and a long search for the truth. Sometimes I feel that whatever is the truth is hidden, and sometimes its hidden by the wrong things. Every time I search for answers they are always overlaid by other peoples need to be right. Its so sad and soooo dangerous to suppose that one is right despite above and beyond all other reasoning. I hope you find what you are looking for, I never have and I have to live with the loss and the misery. God speed.

[BootFlap]

Tappers' Dad & 'the other half',
I hope that 'others need to be right' doesn't overshadow the truth, whatever that may be. I can only offer my condolences to you, and wish that you and yours find peace and some consolation in the fact that it is obvious your loved ones meant an awful lot to many others. The video on YouTube moved me, as I am sure it will many others. All the best,

someone going back to Kandahar.

[theotherhalf]

Take care Bootflap.
I say this to all of you that take so many risks. No matter what, you are all special. Despite the comments, arguments, opinions, free for alls and often sanctimonious remarks, the majority of people won't take the risks you do to protect the rest of us. My heart goes with you, be safe, come home where you belong.

[BEagle]

From The Sunday Times
March 18, 2007

RAF rebels quit over fuel danger in ageing spy plane
Michael Smith

E-MAILS from RAF flight crew allege that Nimrod spy planes are being kept airborne despite repeated problems with fuel leaks such as the one suspected of causing the deaths of 14 servicemen.

The Sunday Times revealed last year that a fractured fuel pipe had led a 37-year-old Nimrod to explode over southern Afghanistan in September, killing all on board.

Now e-mails from flight crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in northeast Scotland show that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. But such is the pressure to keep the plane airborne to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once — last month.

Crews have been ordered to resume the practice of air-to-air refuelling — the Nimrod that crashed had just refuelled in mid-air and the board of inquiry believes the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line.

Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resulting blaze caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode. A Harrier filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000ft, where it broke up.

Leaked e-mails from a number of aircrew describe how morale has plummeted because of pressure to keep the ageing aircraft flying.

They state that crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers. “It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said.

“Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy is at an all-time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship.

“More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refuelling after each one.”

Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, insisted in a statement last week that the aircraft was safe and was being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”.

The RAF’s 17 Nimrod MR2s are based on the De Haviland Comet, the world’s first commercial airliner which began flying in 1949.

The MoD said a small number of aircrew had asked to leave Kinloss in January “as a result of increased job availability in the civil sector”.

[TheSmiter]

Nice to see The Sunday Times released their BoI findings last year, far ahead of anyone else.

What is the point of this article? Well, I suppose it keeps the Nimrod saga in the public eye, but it doesn't bring much to the table in terms of hard facts or anything else that hasn't already been fully aired on this site.

The fact remains that Nimrod is still an asset much in demand for lots of jobs in addition to the primary ones of ASW, ASuW and SAR. Unfortunately, the airframe is getting long in the tooth and requires a lot of maintenance. For that you need lots of qualified technicians, preferably with experience of legacy platforms. Where are they?

I hope the official BoI reports soon and provides answers to the families and friends of those trgically lost in XV230. Those still flying the Mighty Hunter have presumably made their own risk assessment. It is believed that some aircrew (front and back) have erred on the side of caution, others have taken advantage 'of increased job availability in the civil sector' as the MoD quaintly puts it!

Will the answers ever be known? Even Sherlock Holmes required evidence and I haven't seen a hangar full of wreckage yet.

The seeds of this tragedy, the loss of Hercules XV179, and all the other military scandals and deficiencies of recent times were sown many years ago. You may all have your own theories and explanantions, but in the first instance I suggest you direct your enquiries to:

Mr G Brown
11 Downing Street
LONDON SW1 1AA

[circle kay]

Smiter,

SW1A 1AA is not GB's postcode. It's a much bigger place at the top of the Mall. I'm lead to believe that the tenant there has a much higher regard for the Armed Services.

If you want to make a complaint to the bloke in 11 Downing Street the postcode SW1A 2AJ will get it to him a little faster.

I'm sure he will give it his full attention. :cool:

[TheSmiter]

Thanks for that CK, more attention to detail required :O

From the 11 Downing St website:

Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP
Chancellor of the Exchequer
HM Treasury
1 Horse Guards Road
LONDON SW1A 2HQ

Couldn't bring myself to put right, honourable, Gordon and Brown in the same sentence.

Wholeheartedly agree with your other comment re resident at the top of The Mall.

For a stinging assessment of GB as his hold on the purse strings draws to a close, you may find this worthy of debate:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1530635.ece

[Tappers Dad]

Perhaps its time to stop calling the Nimrod the "Mighty Hunter" and start calling it the "Widow Maker" .
Mmm doesn't conjure up the same image or have quite the same ring to it. But at least it is accurate. As for the article in The Times I think its good that some one feels that its time the "Widow Maker " was scrapped.

[Da4orce]

I'm Tappers brother, I made the YouTube video. I would rather not have had to of made it but thank you for all the comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4

[Da4orce]

A shortened version of this article appeared in the Sunday Times yesterday. The full article shown below appeared on the Times website. It was written by Michael Smith, if you would like to comment on the article you can do so at this link:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2007/03/the_scandal_of_.html

March 17, 2007

The Scandal of the "Unsafe" RAF Aircraft Forced to Keep Flying

When an RAF Nimrod exploded over southern Afghanistan on September 2nd, everyone I know was struck by the sheer horror and tragedy of it all. It was that incident which led me to set up the In Memoriam (http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2006/11/in_memoriam.html) post on this blog which lists all of those who have died in action since the British deployed to Helmand province. I railed against the MoD’s insistence that the 14-man crew of the Nimrod would not be categorised as having died in action but accepted that it was a mere technicality. Like everyone else I assumed that an inquiry would get underway and the problems that caused the explosion, and the tragic loss of life, would be sorted out. What a fool I was.


A series of emails from a number of air crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in north-east Scotland have been passed to this blog. They show the abysmal way in which they have been treated, forced to keep flying and to continue with the air-to-air refueling process that is believed to have caused the tragedy.

The Sunday Times revealed last year that a leaking fuel pipe led to the explosion that brought down the 37-year-old Nimrod XV230 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/aboutus/nimrodthroughtheyears.cfmWhen). But the emails reveal that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. Such is the pressure to keep the aircraft in the air to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once – last month. Crews have even been forced to continue the air-to-air refueling process thought to have led to the explosion and loss of life.

The Nimrod that crashed had just refueled in mid-air and while the difficulties of investigating an accident in Taliban-held territory have hampered the inquiry, it is believed the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line. Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resultant fire caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode.

A Harrier ground attack aircraft filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000 feet above the ground when the fuel tank in the wing exploded and the aircraft broke up. The emails describe how pressure to keep the aging aircraft flying amid uncertainty over the leaking fuel pipes has led morale to plummet. Angry crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers to other aircraft.

“It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said. “Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy are at an all time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship. More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refueling after each one.”

There was intense anger at RAF Kinloss when the crews were ordered to resume flying just four days after the original explosion. All the most experienced Nimrod pilots are leaving to work for civilian companies with some paying back bounties worth tens of thousands of pounds rather than stay in. The base is short of eight flight engineers, the air crew with the best technical understanding of the aircraft. Engineers from other bases are being forced to move to Kinloss but a number have resigned rather than do so.

In an email written shortly after the aircraft crashed, another RAF officer complained that the way in which crews were being kept in the dark was making matters worse. “We've not heard a dicky bird then suddenly the ACC [the then Air Component Commander] in the Gulf wants us airborne and tanker capable again. So, we had a jet air-to-air refueling over Kandahar four days after the accident!! Unbelievable. I can't see how that could ever possibly be considered to be good risk management.”

Adam Ingram, defence minister, insisted last week that the aircraft was safe and being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”. But one recently retired RAF pilot said: "I would describe the actions taken by higher level commanders following the crash of Nimrod XV230 as reckless. The task is clearly taking priority over safety, and airmen are being asked to take unnecessary risk. This aircraft is so old, I am not even sure it is possible to make it safe, however, the simple step of fitting fuel tank protection would go a long way to providing such safety."

The explosion in the wing tank is bound to lead to demands for suppressant foam to be fitted in the Nimrod wing tanks as well as those of the RAF’s Hercules transport aircraft. US Air Force Hercules and the US Navy P3 Orion, the American equivalent of the Nimrod, have had suppressant foam in their wings since the Vietnam War. As the fuel level in the tank goes down, foam fills the gap eliminating any air and therefore preventing combustion.

But typically cost-cutting left RAF aircraft unprotected until ten British servicemen were killed when a special forces Hercules was shot down over Iraq in January 2005. Insurgents managed to hit the aircraft wing fuel tank which exploded. An inquiry recommended that all operational Hercules have the foam fitted to their fuel tanks. More than 18 months later only seven of the RAF’s 48-strong fleet of Hercules have been converted. The Board of Inquiry into the Nimrod explosion is now expected to recommend that foam be fitted to the Nimrod wing tanks as well. I hope those who decided previously that it was not worth doing so can live with themselves.