Oh dear...

[PompeySailor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6379683.stm

Oh dear.:=

Where can we get the CCTV footage.....:O

[ORAC]

"She appeared tearful and she spoke quite quickly," she said. "I formed the opinion she was drunk and upset".

I believe m'lud, my client was just being female, tired and emotional...... otherwise she'd have scratched her eyes out.... ;)

[Wannabe1974]

"Lt Frith, Morton and Petty Officer Dryhurst went out together in Yeovil town centre.All three were staying at Petty Officer Dryhurst's house in the local area, the court martial heard."

Well is it any f***ing wonder then?

It amazes me sometimes that some people have the cheek to call themselves officers....

[forwardassist]

Wannabe
What's your point?

[Wannabe1974]

That Lt Frith should have known better than to get so wobbly that she forgot why she gets to call herself Lieutenant. 40 odd grand a year should get the taxpayer some OLQs.

[forwardassist]

Ah I see. I thought you were going down the route of 3 girlies getting emotional before they could have a pajama party. :}

[airborne_artist]

I'm up for as much fun as the next guy, but you do wonder what was going through Lt Frith's mind as this developed. Did she not realise that this had all the makings of a monumental SNAFU. Did she not listen to anything at BRNC?

I expect she's already had the my office, your hat, no hot beverages interview - bet it was quite something. I'd imagine her boss didn't get off too lightly either.

[Mr-Burns]

They probably had the decorators in. :}

[Mr-AEO]

Wanabee, I find your inference that Officers should know better and not mix with ratings for a couple of beer's offensive. Are you saying that this event would not have happened if they were all BRNC bred - - jeez, I thought that we lost that attitude several decades ago. Obviously not!:*

[Clockwork Mouse]

Mr AEO
I do not see how you can interpret Wanabee's thread as objecting to officers having a couple of beers with ratings. How about officers shacking up with ratings, getting p*ssed out of their minds with said ratings and subsequently indulging in a very public physical punch-up with said ratings and being arrested by the fuzz.

Is that how officers are expected to behave wherever you come from? Unfortunately in Blair's Britain this sort of behaviour seems to have become part of the job description.

[teeteringhead]

Sorry AEO, I may just be a grumpy old crab but I'm with Clockwork Mouse on this one...

..... there's a world of difference between "a couple of beers with ratings (aimen/ORs)" and what happened here ....

..... and then there's the position of PO Dryhurst (m or f incidentally?).

Aren't SNCOs supposed to look after the ruperts and the blighters, not accommodate them and facilitate their public punchups...?

And of course our previous SofS' words come to mind ......"Umm Qasr is a town similar to Southampton", UK Defence Minister Geoff Hoon told the House of Commons yesterday. "He's either never been to Southampton, or he's never been to Umm Qasr", said one British soldier, informed of this while on patrol in Umm Qasr. Another added: "There's no beer, no prostitutes, and people are shooting at us. It's more like Portsmouth."

[bad livin']

gents - going out for a few with members of your division alongside is one thing. crashing over at the house of someone you work with (and may be the DO of) in a seagoing appointment is quite another. i have to say that although no one here is in full possession of the facts, the Lt in question put the junior/snr rates she was spending her time with so closely in a bad position which was unfortunately only likely to turn out one way. badly.

unfortunate indeed, for all concerned. have a drink with your people - then thin out and let them get on with it.

[airborne_artist]

Mr-AEO - do you seriously think this took place after just a couple of pints?:

"All three were staying at Petty Officer Dryhurst's house in the local area, the court martial heard.

"They had stayed there the previous night as well," Lt Commander Weare added.

"The group arrived in Yeovil at around 1500 GMT and visited a number of public houses through the day consuming a large amount of alcohol in the process. "

Read and weep - it really was an accident waiting to happen.

[Pan Pan Splash]

Aren't SNCOs supposed to look after the ruperts and the blighters, not accommodate them and facilitate their public punchups...?

Bit of a grey area that one, I would argue that if said Rupert is a pretty decent boss, then yes, rule above applies..

However..

If Lt Boss is female, and possibly might look good having it up the ronson in full webbing in ones bedroom, then perhaps accomodate and facilitate springs to mind.. couple this with perhaps a female J/R and the possibilities are endless... at the very least I might have lobbed some baby oil on the pair of them and pulled up a ringside seat :}

[teeteringhead]

Exactly so PPS :E

but does anyone know the answer to:... PO Dryhurst (m or f incidentally?).

[Wannabe1974]

It's a first! People are sticking up for me!
Well Mr AEO - perhaps you are indeed behind the curve on this one? There is nothing wrong with relaxing with your division etc. In my experience over quite a few years at sea, familiarity CAN, and very often does, breed contempt - it depends on the people. And officers should be able to interpret the situation accordingly. That is supposed to be what sets them apart (note I am not saying 'better'). You may disagree, but it is indisputable.
When it goes wrong, it can go wrong badly and make your position totally untenable - I've seen it happen to others enough times and it usually results in embarrassing scandals, massive loss of credibility and/or a sacking. I appreciate that standards might not be quite so high in the AEO world! :ouch:
I've been out for more than a few beers with many senior rates and thoroughly enjoyed it. But I went home when I knew my time was up. It might seem old fashioned and I suspect AEO would look at me with disbelief, but when you go out in a group from work in the forces, you still wear your rank/rate whatever it may be.

[Bruiser Loose]

Mr Teeteringhead,

F is the answer to your question, I do believe. But what one might say "Of footwear that does not cause offence to one's feet."

;)

[PompeySailor]

Where do we start? With the obvious alcohol factor - all day drinking sessions are a recipe for disaster, no matter who is involved. All of them are in positions of responsibility, and are paid as such, so at least one of them should have realised that it was going South at some point. I would have expected better of the officer, but it can't all be laid at her door - the killick must accept her share of the blame for being involved in the situation. The only one that seems to be outside the punishment envelope is the PO, but legally that cannot stay that way - failing to exercise proper control should be a laid charge. In fact, the PO should take a fair whack of the responsibility. The obvious solution would have been to recommend that the officer gets in a taxi and returns to the nearest establishment, and the killick is accompanied in a taxi (a different one) to the same establishment - the whole situation should then have been handed across to the OOD. If they were not near an establishment (one that wasn't serving Aftershock, obviously), then the PO should have gripped them both and explained that this was not conduct becoming, and they should sort it out.

The charge only appears to be fighting, not drunkeness, and if there is CCTV then they are both stuffed, as it were.

The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, of course!

[airborne_artist]

PS - what about the catch-all Section 39 charge for the PO? (Section 69 in the ADA and AFA).

[PompeySailor]

The charge should be there, unless the PO has already been tried summarily by the CO on a lesser charge (I assume the PO was not doing Jackie Chan impersonations). The charge should be failing to carry out the duties of a Senior Rate (the ones that were on the back of her promotion certificate, in case she was unsure) - despite there being an hofficer there, as the hofficer in question was clearly incapable of carrying her handbag, let alone her rank. The PO should be disrated, although I suspect this didn't happen, and is more likely to be a fine and a period of unofficial monitoring.

Sordid little situation that should have been kicked into touch when you consider the seniorities involved. Then again, scrub that, as we all know of situations like this which have not been CCTV-monitored, and have never made it past the unofficial divisional chat the next morning, which involve ranks of all seniorities!

[Mr-AEO]

:ouch: Crunch, should have seen those coming!

I still think that we need to have a more modern approach to this. These people were in civilian clothes, off duty and conducting their life - I believe that this has f# all to do with the RN. I know that view is not accepted by the NDA, but it is my view nonetheless. I've never agreed with consequentials, they stink, why do we punish someone twice for a crime?

Consider an exmaple where Officer A visits a family member who happens to be Rating B over XMAS. Does Officer A have to make his excuses and says sorry Dad/Brother/Sister I cannot stay with you for fear that if we have an argument after a few too many beers, then I will be punished for being a poor officer and for that matter you will be too?

Using this sort of example, I cannot understand the underlying principle that is being used against this female RN officer. However, I accept that it is the NDA and QR's so it is the law and hence why so many just blatantly accept it without question.

[PompeySailor]

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "off duty" as far as the NDA is concerned, whether you are in or out of uniform. When a rank or rate is given to you, it is made abundantly clear that you are expected to behave at all times in a manner commensurate with that rank or rate - this is hammered home during leadership training. OK, if they were civilians, then this would not have been remotely interesting. However, they are Service personnel, one of which was an officer, and they are expected (sometimes unfairly) to behave in a certain manner. This is a courts martial based on CCTV evidence - they were fighting in a "military" town, so some evidence-sharing between the local plod and the crushers can be assumed - used to happen in Portland all the time. Sometimes being a Service person on the wrong end of the long arm of the law can pay dividends - but not in places where there is a military presence. If this had been another town, they may simply have been told not to act like prats and sent on their way.

Consequentials - they tend to be a day's pay and time, which ultimately are considered fair in that a civilian employer would also expect you to take leave to attend court. The additional "punishments" are also fairly in line with civilian company redress actions. And yes, we all know that you are punished twice for one offence, but as yet no-one has managed to challenge this successfully in a court. This is not consequentials, obviously, they are not being punished twice - they have been handed to the military for punishment rather than being punished in a civilian court for affray/threatening behaviour/breach/etc.

Behaviour should not be a considered action - if you feel that you are unable to hold your drink, and are liable to "out-pin" if you have too much, then logic dictates that you don't place yourself in that situation. If you place yourself in a situation where you are having to think "if this goes pear-shaped", then arguably you are at the point where you decide that your best plan of action is to remove yourself. That has served people successfully for many years on runs ashore. Notice how the officers disappear first, then the SNCOs, leaving the LHs and the ABs to carry on? It's a judgement call, and sometimes people get it wrong.

The NDA is quite specific - they were fighting, and they cannot choose when and where the NDA applies to them. A sad case of "life in a..." which will probably not affect the LH too much, but will sit in the personal file of the officer for a few years to come....

[airborne_artist]

These people were in civilian clothes, off duty and conducting their life - I believe that this has f# all to do with the RN.

It's no different to other uniformed roles - consider the situation if all involved were serving Police officers - it'd be just as bad, if not worse.

As PS says, life in uniform is not the same as in a civilian job, and people should think carefully before a) joining and b) going out and getting totally ratted.

Corrected for spelling

[salad_man]

You are correct about Police Officers. At least with the Forces you are expected to go out and cause mayhem! :ok: Police Officers are generally expected to have to deal with the consequences and so should really know better. (Whether they do or not is a different matter!)

Anyway, I've found there is no problem with having a beer or two, but as someone said, it's a wise man (or woman) who knows when to make their excuses and leave.

[airborne_artist]

Consider an exmaple where Officer A visits a family member who happens to be Rating B over XMAS. Does Officer A have to make his excuses and says sorry Dad/Brother/Sister I cannot stay with you for fear that if we have an argument after a few too many beers, then I will be punished for being a poor officer and for that matter you will be too?

1. The Navy is so small that'll never happen.

2. If it did, then Officer A minds his tongue, slows his drinking and if it comes to it, has a scrap out of view of CCTV and the public at large ;)

[Pan Pan Splash]

There are a couple of key issues here...

1. If it was lads, this wouldn't be an issue, its standard drill, get hammered, scrap with civvies, and expedite your exit upon arrival of the plod / town patrol, no problem. If questioned by the crushers, lie, lie and thrice lie until said jossman realises he is being outfoxed by a group of absolute professional liars and relaxes his interest. Girls are unable to cope with this basic concept.

2. This is clearly a case of 3 girls, who participate in finger sports involving beans, therefore, there are three offences committed here..

a) They were not covered in baby oil.

b) They failed to publicise the event in advance and provide ticket allocation or at least a free invite to the lads.

c) They failed in their duty to involve the ships phot man.. girls getting physical with each other should always be photographed, I believe its in Queens Regs, if it isn't, it bloody should be.

Girls are unable to cope with these basic concepts.

[DSAT Man]

'up the ronson'

Fantastic! What's a ronson?

DSAT Man

[Pan Pan Splash]

What's a ronson?

You jest, surely???

"Ronson Lighter" otherwise known as "The Gary" (As in Glitter) we getting it yet?? Think Cornish Contraception..:ugh:

[airborne_artist]

Fantastic! What's a ronson?

Ronson Lighter - rhymes with ****er, which is an expression for the anal passage :=

[Dancing Bear]

Wow,

I am amazed there are people out there who actually seem to take thier role and position seriously and appreciatte that there is a time and place to socialise and the time to leave. It is such a shame that this lesson is so rarely learnt before the 12-14 year point, I should know I was an awful offender! Yes they should have known better, yes they should have been seperated but the biggest crime has to be getting caught! Especially on CCTV! Remeber Big Brother is always watching!

[I_stood_in_the_door]

What a laugh!!

Only problem that there was no mud or jelly thrown in the ring (no pun intended!).

If indeed it is three chicks, the judge should throw the book at them for not inviting any chaps to add to said beanfest for a spot of uphill gardening.

Naughty Fish Heads - what happened to the old Navy policy of 'Rum, Bum and 'Baccy!'?

Permission to go ashore, sah!!

ISITD
:8
LFOGOOTFW

PS The crime is not socialising/scrapping/liver licking with your superiors or subordinates - its getting caught as pointed out by DB. Let the laughter commence!!

[DSAT Man]

I naturally guessed that a ronson would have been one of 2 orifices but I had never heard that particular gem of rhyming slang. Thanks for the education; I have learnt something new and the day has not been wasted!

[MarkD]

If that happened in Middlesbrough the guy operating the CCTV speakers would probably have egged them on.

Given the overstretch affecting UK forces I would think that these people should be demoted and posted elsewhere (Falklands perhaps), not dismissed - the latter being a waste of training investment and essentially the easy option.

[Pan Pan Splash]

I'm reliably informed by an esteemed colleague that the "Ronson" and the "Gary" has now been replaced in all cases by the "Council".. as in "Council Gritter"

:D :D