Flying Pay

[cnjm1]

Could anybody please shed some light on flying pay in the RAF for me?

I am in the situation where I got accepted for a bursary when flying pay was paid after 72 weeks of flying training. Since I failed to complete EFT pre cut off date it is now not paid until after OCU.

I find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change. If I wanted to back out pre IOT I would have had to repay the bursary, so surely a contract existed. I have heard someone is arguing the same point with the help of a solicitor. Does anybody know if this is a rumour or somebody is making headway?

It seems a ridiculously unfair system where the individual is punished for the length of the training system. This post is not intended as a discussion regarding the whole flying/retention argument or if aircrew should get it.

Many Thanks

[FFP]

where I got accepted for a bursary when flying pay was paid after 72 weeks of flying training. Since I failed to complete EFT pre cut off date it is now not paid until after OCU.
When did you actually start IOT (begin employment)? When did the rules change in respect to that ?

I don't remember anything in the offer of a bursary referrring to Flying Pay. It talks about terms of service, lengths of engagement etc which you could contest if they changed.

[cnjm1]

I started IOT post rule changes.

[bpster]

Hi there,

Not here to winge, just to explain what happened to me.

I started IOT april 03 as a DE. For the next 3 years I was told i was getting flying pay 72 weeks after starting flying training. As I went through APO, Plt Off, Fg Off etc i received the same latter saying nothing had changed. On applying for FP i was told i was not able to for the reasons you outlined. On investigation, the AP was not amended until July of that year then retrospectively applied. 2 of us pushed through a redress. At all times i was informed that as an officer i should keep my self up to date with the AP and i shouldnt have to be informed of the change. This maybe however, I was employed by the Air Force before this change took effect.

On calculation I will be £45,000 behind my mates that i graduated with by the end of my PC. For me, in the fast jet stream just finishing AFJT, Its nearly 6 years from starting IOT to receiving flying pay. Those guys on multis are getting in many years sooner. Somehow seems unfair however an air force redress through it back at me with out really answering the question i asked, being that if i was on IOT before the new scheme was introduced into the AP, why am i on the new system when for the graduates they moved the date to july to account for the delay in amending the AP.

Not intended as a moan, but it just seemed you were in a similar circumstance. Im not taking it any further, its gone as high as I am willing to take it with out sticking my head up. 2 2stars have told me where to go so hint taken!

Hope it helps!

[cnjm1]

HAHA, Point taken. Thanks for the reply, understand it is not a moan just nice to know where you stand. Some people are quick to reply with a 'stop complaining' post when this is not what this thread is about.

[FFP]

Good post by bpster.

I think the fact that you started IOT post rule change leaves you with less weight to any redress. There are people it seems that were even unluckier.

It sucks. Suppose there needs to be a cut off somewhere. Ask those who missed out on the last FRI by a matter of days.

[Set Me Free]

Does anyone know when the rules changed please?

[bpster]

1 APR 03 for DEs (Starting IOT)
31 JUL 03 for Grads (completion of EFT)

started IOT on 6th of April, sucks hey!

AP amended on 27th July 03 or something like that.

[cnjm1]

yeah, I appreciate there are people far more unluckly than me. Ive heard of some guys on the same course missing out by a few days whilst others getting it.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I was told that they had reviewed their decision and concluded it was wrong (others might say illegal) to change and apply the new flying pay rules restrospectively. They then set a new, later date, from when they would apply the changes.
Despite the terms of our dodgy 'contract' surely they can't just decide to cut peoples pay without telling them and do it restrospectively:mad:
Well, jacks alright but I will check with the person who gave me this info (as soon as I remember who it was) and report back.

[Elmlea]

I find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change. If I wanted to back out pre IOT I would have had to repay the bursary, so surely a contract existed.

You didn't sign a contract, you signed an undertaking to agree to repay your bursary if you subsequently didn't enter service. I remember it being very different!

[vecvechookattack]

find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change

Welcome to the Armed Forces.

[EmeraldToilet]

I think you will find that all 3 services are littered with examples of where our lords and masters have removed incentives which were described to us at the time we took the queens shilling. If anyone has ever had any fortune in getting the decision reversed I would be interested to hear about it. I missed out on two commital bonuses, which they then reintroduced at a later date, an FRI, which they quoted the source as the AFPRB which made no mention of the FRI this time round, well last time round.....
But as the above post mentions, its the MoD, they treat us like dirt because, well they think they can I guess.......
Pension trap for me then.........

[propulike]

Your terms of employment (for want of a better description) can't just be changed overnight by the MoD. Your terms are as stated in the relevant Pam(Air) xxx, xxx being the edition in force on the day you were due to swear your oath of allegiance. I joined on a Cadetship in 1987, the flying pay rules changed in 1989, and again in 1993. My flying instructional pay (that's going back some...) was halted, and the initial award of fg pay delayed. After much querying, 18 months worth of querying to be fair, the pennycounters agreed that my terms and conditons were as stated when I joined and I received fg pay back dated to when it should have started, which was a nice lump sum of around 8grand and several years seniority on the fg pay scale. vroom vroom.

It helped that I'd kept a copy of the Pam(Air) relevant to when I'd signed up, and had a friendly and knowledgable P1 staff instead of JPA staff.

If your bursary contained an offer of employment with a full commission in it, you have a case for claiming you're on the 'old' rules. If it was a bursary with no guarantee of employment at the end of it, I'm afraid it sounds as though you've dipped out. Serves you right for not going multi's ;). Good luck.

[J.A.F.O.]

I seem to recall a phrase somewhere along the lines of "If you can't take the air force then you shouldn't have joined a joke", or similar. I'm afraid that that covers this situation, by the looks of it. Once two 2 sars tell someone to poke off then poking off is the only option.

[TurbineTooHot]

Your terms of employment (for want of a better description) can't just be changed overnight by the MoD. Your terms are as stated in the relevant Pam(Air) xxx, xxx being the edition in force on the day you were due to swear your oath of allegiance.
What was the date of your commissioning. Reading between the lines, that's the contract you "signed" and entered into it. The bursary is given to you as an incentive to take up a commission and is not a binding contract on anyone's part, hence the ease in moving the goalposts for you chaps.
My sympathies to you all who got fragged by this particular knee jerk. I do consider it to be very unfair. And it doesn't encourage some of the more mercenary amongst the baby aircrew to push for the FJ stream, when the wait for the end of the OCU can be as much as 2 & 1/2 years later than their RW and ME cousins.
TTH

[Roguedent]

I hate to be the one who says it but. To pay for the FRI, money had to be saved somewhere. Unfortunately it happened to baby pilots. The RAF has a history of taking from one hand to feed another, but in a few years all this will be forgotten. It is a crying :{ shame to all people who missed out, but thats life. Spending money to try and claim you signed up on this contract, or were told this by someone is a waste of both parties time and money.:ugh: If the dates are set down, and you missed the boat, then unfortunatley its tough. The system was very good before, its just fair now, not unfair as was commented. Unfair would be to cut the daily rate of pay (better say that quietly, or it might happen):mad: . As for the FJ boys not getting FP for 6 years, you shouldn't have worked so hard:ok:

[ZH875]

Somehow seems unfair however an air force redress through it back at me with out really answering the question i asked, being that if i was on IOT before the new scheme was introduced into the AP, why am i on the new system when for the graduates they moved the date to july to account for the delay in amending the AP
With sentences, grammar and spelling like that, you do not deserve to be an officer, never mind getting flying pay.:= It looks like you should have done better at school.

Aircrew whingeing, it makes my day so much more bearable.:)

[Flt Lt Spry]

On calculation I will be £45,000 behind my mates that i graduated with by the end of my PC.

Please can you just run me through your maths? I reckon that, if you take 4 years to get to the end of the OCU, by the end of a PC you will be £22,500 worse off than someone who got flying pay after 72 weeks. Take off 40% tax and it's about £13,500 over 16 years. If you do an easy course (multi or RW) then there will be less of a gap.

If you had got a degree however, you would have LOADS more money...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Roguedent, believe the beef is not that flying pay was moved, but it was moved retrospectively after people had signed on the line under ts&cs that declared they would receive it. That's like (in fact... is!) signing a contract to work for asda for 7.50 an hour, working for a few months and then being told they'd rather pay you 5.80 an hour. Not exactly fair play! Not an issue if you'd signed for the 5.80 in the first place, but a bit of a kick in the teeth to do it after you've signed on the line.

[Cockney Geezer]

ZH 875,

Hoo cares about spelling and gramma, dats wot ISS is 4, aigght.

CG

[FFP]

Ah good. The thread had sunk into the depths of "dry your eyes", "should have worked harder at school" and a spelling and grammar marking session.

The predictable PPRuNe path of least resistance :rolleyes:

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

PBA, at least you have got the idea. The other main problem is that the RAF didn't exactly advertise the fact that they had changed the rules, so many continued to serve for a couple of years before finding out they would not be eligible.

[Minstral]

I had a bursary from Aug 02 until I joined up in Oct 04. Whilst on the UAS I did all my flying in the Summer hols as my uni was 1hr30 drive from the airfield and there was no weekend flying. I finished EFT in mid Sep 03 having only flown 19 trips since Oct 02.

If I had prior warning of the impending deadline I could have easily completed my last 10 trips before the deadline, but I didn't find out a deadline even existed until I started IOT a year later. Hence, I had no reason to rush!
My joining letter for IOT states that I joined under the terms and conditions in PAM(Air)96 42nd Edition (the 72 wk scheme).

I am sure that if this was a civil case the management would not have a leg to stand on. I have tried pursuing this through PSF and PMA with the backing of my then UAS QFI who agreed I could have completed the course had we known there was a deadline. The last reply I had was from a GC who didn't respond to any of the points I made in my letter and merely told me that I would not be receiving it.

Apart from taking this up to the Air Force Board there aren't many options left. Even that doesn't seem to get a personal response judging by the posts in this thread!

The thing I really don't understand though, is that there can only be 100-150 people who have a case that they can put forward regarding flying pay. So why don't they just pay up and keep the hardworking trainee pilots happy rather than making them spend their spare time writing letters begging to be reconsidered and making them hate the system before they are even operational!

Guess I'll just have to be bitter for the rest of my career!:uhoh:

And just to add to the pain some of the people on my course who I graduated IOT with are getting flying pay!!!!:(

[Hot Charlie]

So why don't they just pay up and keep the hardworking trainee pilots happy rather than making them spend there spare time writing letters begging to be reconsidered and making them hate the system before they are even operational!
Guess I'll just have to be bitter for the rest of my career!

Quite. I wonder if the retention bonus to keep people in once their return of service is complete will out-weigh the saving afforded by the cut to flying pay?:O

[LuckyBreak]

I must say that it is really a shame the fact that a few of you are effectively getting 'screwed over' with this. If you joined (and by that I mean started IOT, as a bursary is not the employment guarantee many would have you believe) before the retrospective cut-off date was introduced, then I would keep pushing whoever is your current boss to get on the case for you, or at leat put his/her name to it. I know of people who have appealed against it and got their flying pay in the end, so use them as a precedent. Good luck!

PS: Spelling and grammar usage is important, typos can be accepted but using THROUGH instead of THREW is not the way you're going to get your cash! Or is someone fishing........
;)

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Try putting something in writing under a lawyers letter head - that has got the RAF running on more than one occasion and rightly so!

[blackpants]

Just a minor technicality which may have been overlooked. When you join the RAF as a graduate, your actual commission starts on the first day of IOT. As a DE your commission does not start until the day you graduate from IOT. As has been stated several times before the bursary is just a carrot on a stick being dangled in front of people, not actually a contract of employment.

BP

[Mmmmnice]

It's all a rather sad tale of goalposts moving - but nothing new in real terms. The unfortunate fact is that when one is sitting around with no a/c to fly, or secondary duties to chase, it's probably worth browsing through SROs, then AP3392 (Blunt Bible, but full of all sorts of relevant stuff), JPA (good luck), and finally get onto HR Flt and ask them if there's anything about to change. This all seems like the sort of stuff that aircrew are far too lofty/lazy to worry their incredibly skilled minds about (ha ha), but good ammo if one ends up having to build a case. It all sounds a bit muppety but just remember that when you are on leave, or looking the other way, someone, somewhere, is probably doing you up like a kipper!!
P.S in days of yore (1980) one got 99p Flying Instructional Pay from day dot! not much, but a little compensation for all that grief!