Angry Post

[Angrywife]

I have never used this website personally but my partner uses it frequently and up until now I have never been interested but it’s the only way I’m going to express my opinion about the whole aviation industry.
My partner spent 65,000 pounds, as I’m sure many other people have too if not more and he has applied for more jobs than I can remember but he is getting nowhere fast and he has been fully qualified since July 2006. How are all these pilots supposed to get jobs when the websites are all down so making it impossible to fill out an application? Also airlines that just don’t respond to applications just to say that it wasn’t successful, is this really too much to ask, you know for a bit of courtesy!!
I’m sure everybody can agree that it is extremely stressful trying to get a job at the best of times but when you don’t get one after spending so much money to train (and it’s not easy), my god what a kick in the teeth!
My partner is under a great deal of stress and I appreciate that others are as well but it’s the wives and families that suffer too.
My anger is aimed at the airlines here and I feel so sorry for the other poor sods that are in the same position as my partner, I also feel sorry for their families having to deal with the stress also.
What is needed? A golden handshake maybe, would this make a difference? Or do you have to be a celebrity like Will Carling to fly for an airline?
What the aviation authority should also think of is the length of time before the IR etc expires. If a pilot doesn’t get a job within a year then it costs up to an extra 5,000 approx to renew these. Honestly this is not possible when you have no income to pay for such things!
Feel free to add comments but I’m sure if the comments come from a person at an airline it will all be excuses and crap. Sorry but my partner is 34 years old and is a lot more mature than some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!
Airlines say that you have to have a certain amount of experience to get a job but how can you do that when you don’t get the opportunity to gain experience? Surely this doesn’t take a genius to work out!!!!
I pray for the day that there is a shortage of pilots and the airlines then need to call upon people with low hours begging them to fly their planes. I hope everyone will be in the position to not bother returning his or her calls!! If Ryan Air can afford to take on pilots with 250 hours why can’t any other airline? At least O’Leary gives you lot a chance…if you’ve got 20K that is….
Good luck boys and girls!

[future captain]

Sorry to hear about that. However he did pass in July 06, which can be regarded as not so long ago. Keep knocking away and one door will open :ok:

Has he had a sniff anywhere? interviews etc? Or is it a case of just direct no? Maybe a rethink in approach is required if he hasn't had any sniffs.

[Callsign Kilo]

First of all, I am very sorry to hear about all the stress and anguish this is obviously causing you and your partner. It is a frustrating experience spending a lot of hard earned cash on your training and then find out that a job is not waiting for you at the end of it all. But without me sounding like I intentionally want to rub salt in the wound; this is nothing new!
I am not an airline pilot, I am currently completing my CPL and will shortly be starting the IR course. I am loving every minute of my training, however not one day goes by where I shed a little bit of anxiety about what will happen when it is all over. I have a wife, who is pregnant, a mortgage and all the other good things that go with family life. I have been honest and have told everyone that is near and dear to me that there is every possibility that I will not walk into a Turboprop or Jet job with a measily 250 hours. And if that is the case, well bugger it, I'll just have to get on with it. Plan B, as they say!
One of the most important things that I was always told that if you don't get the dream job, you need to stay in aviation and make it happen. Maybe do an instructors rating. You will be among pilots every day, you will be gaining hours and experience. Fair enough, the pay is crap, but you are flying. It gives you an opportunity to network. I can count at least 5 people that I know who landed airline jobs from being instructors or working at a flying club. You would be amazed at the amount of people from various backgrounds that you can meet at these places!
Your profile says that you live in the Stansted area. Get your partner to visit various charter / air taxi companies that operate in the South East. There are bloody loads of them. Ask them about the possibility of being a safety pilot. He won't be paid and he won't be able to log the hours. But it is experience, it shows he is proactive and it looks good on the cv. And it could lead to something. There is also the chance of glider towing, dropping sky divers - all things that can be done with a CPL. There are so many of airfields offering this in the South-East. If it were me, I'd go round all of them - continually! It shows the right attitude.
What about trying to work for an airline, maybe in Ops, rostering, throwing the luggage onto the plane even. He would have one foot in the door doing this, it would help with the networking and getting his face known. Showing a bit of enthusiasm and willingness to press on when things don't go to plan often pays in the end - well so I'm told.
So best of luck to you both, stay positive, I really think it will happen.

[geraldn]

I can obviously empathize with you and with your partner even more,however thats the deal with all freshly qualified pilots,it has become even worse in the past few years since alot of pilots are willing to self fund their own type,thus giving the airlines good reason to request it so.

I finished my training up to MCC in July 2006 and was and still am in no position to fund a type rating, only last week have i signed a contract after a long stint as a professional CV dispatcher.

Just a thought...has your partner been probably aiming to high in his job search or limiting his options to the UK market.? i used to apply for anyjob from small turbo prop operators to huge airlines.

Just hang in there and good luck.

P.S. i found www.ppjn.com to be a lifesaver.

[Angrywife]

Thank you to you all for your replys. He has tried to find a job with out paying for the training but has since given up and he recently applied to Ryan Air. He has tried all walks of life not just the big jets. Infact he recently went down to Southend Airport and walked into the Airlines offices..Most were polite but someone was quite rude to him...He went to one called TransEuro which have small 5 seater planes but even they wanted 700 hours...It seenms the only winners are the flight schools

[Callsign Kilo]

There is no suprise that you can descend into negativity about the whole aviation industry when things like this occur. And as hard as it might be, it is important to stay positive. I don't think I am talking out of my ass when I say negative people find it harder to progress. That is not an aviation slant, that is life. I experienced it in my previous career, and it is very evident in the new path that I have chosen to follow. It is not a dig, I know it is very easy to slip into that frame of mind when things aren't working out as intended. However letting yourself wollow in self pitty gets you no where. I hope it works out for you both and your husband gets his break. Be positive! :ok:

[G-Dawg]

I understand completely, it can get very depressing after several months of no flying and no prospects i was in a similar boat, it is very easy to say stay positive but actually living it and experiening it is a different ball game. However, saying that you do have to keep going, keep trying everything, look at aerial photography firms thats where i got my first break. Some will pay fairly well and you'll get some amazing experiences. Apart from that there's very little else one can say other than we're all in the same boat, it's a git of an industry but there it is!!!

[smith]

Just because you have all the qualifications doesn't mean that an airline owes you a job. There are hundreds if not thousands of people in the same boat. Obviously the airlines can be picky on who they employ just like any business. Getting the fATPL CPL/IR is only just the start of the battle. Posts like this really get up my nose, its market forces love, with a glut of qualified pilots an fATPL is not a golden ticket for a jet job. If it was everyone would be doing it!

[bleeds off]

Dear Madam,

First flight as a trainee at 26. First job as a pilot at 34. I'm now 37. In the meantime, like many, I had to struggle with the ups and downs of life, doing sh**ty jobs striving to keep licenses current, undergoing the severe critics of the entourage according to which I was just waisting the household funds, doing only one or two flight a year because of the limited means, applying everywhere I could (that costs money too!!). And had to go to africa to finally get some experience with the prospect of being interesting for european airlines some day. Mortgage still has to be payed but given the salary low level, asked for a stand by period to the bank which has been kind enough to grant it for limited periods that have to renewed on regular basis. Tell me about stress !!! yeah ! That's damn hard!
Not mentionning people who don't know anything about the subject and dare describe you as a looser, since they could have observed the young age of some copilots they happen to have seen in some low cost airline cockpits !!!
Don't get me wrong. I am not bitter. I just want to point out that this is not an easy way, and the strengh you need to face all this lies in knowing what you (your husband) want ultimately and when you agree to go that way, then give him maximum support. Ranting against the system ain't bring anything positive. Keep your enegy to develop resilience against adversity, and be positive. Be totally committed to the job hunting. Then it will happen.

All the best
bleeds:ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

SMITH, If posts like these get up your nose, don't reply to them. There is nothing like stating the obvious. Everyone realises it's hard, however saying that people moaning annoys you just adds to their anger!

[Angrywife]

Fair enough comment. You have your opinion and I have mine!

[geraldn]

Smith ,i agree that no one owes anyone a job,however you must understand ones frustration.

After spending all that time and money towards getting your blue book,the least one must expect is a chance,surely getting your blue book is enough proof of ones dedication and reliability

For some reason when a doctor or a lawyer graduates he/ she is not driven to the point of despair and does not have to beg for a first job wherever it is.

you have to admit that one of the reasons that most fresh pilots are faced with this situation is due to the airlines realising that they will always get what they demand, as the saying goes ''beggars cant be choosers'' & its attitudes like yours that gives airlines the go ahead to behave such

[SamKitch]

Sorry if i missed this point, but which flight school did he go to?

[Angrywife]

Thanks Callsign Kilo.

[Angrywife]

Delta Academy in Sanford, Florida.

[class a]

£5000 to renew a IR!! More like £500

[A340rider]

How you work this £500 out...£300 per hour for flight...approach fee landing fee etc...

so after not doing mullti IR flying for a year you can jump back in the plane and do it all first time with no practice in SIM or practice flights...you must be good....maybe not £5000 but dont think an hour and half of flying...

This is another reason your poor sod husband gets no job....discrimination is too much...French Only?? I speak blardy French can I have job please!

Stopped hiring new F/O's for the 2007 season. Planning to recruit about 15 F/Os and 15 captains (french only) for creating the new air france low cost transavia based at LFPO. 15/Feb/07

[south coast]

I have a job, but I would be mortified if my girlfriend/wife wrote such a thread about me.

He is in the same boat as many, we all had to go through hard times to get where we are, and that is true of any job, be it flying or something else.

Accept it, stay motivated and remember your husband is not the first who is experiencing this and nor will he be the last.

[Angrywife]

Well I guess you're one of the lucky ones. And I think alot of people would agree that I am just supporting my partner.

[angelorange]

Yes it is a huge investment - there are people who have spent 90K with no job.

Owing to financial issues including unemployment, rule changes from national to JAR, depressed airline market, etc, I took over 8 years to get a CPL/IR. Granted that was in the old days (1990s) when you had to get a BCPL then do 700 hrs before sitting CPL exams then build more time to do ATPL (CAA got threee exam fees that way!). Now you can get a frozen ATPL with only 250hrs. That's actually a lot faster and cheaper than the old system but you end up with a lot less experience.

Do not rule out Flying Instruction as an excellent way to develop flying skills (not only in others!). "OK, but why spend 6k when I can get a type rating with 20k......?", lots of wannabees ask.

Be careful what you hope for - flying a 737 five times a day as an FO with zero time on the ground to even visit "duty free shops" during turnarounds, early starts, late finishes, roster changes, and no g-tee'd weekends off, is not as glamorous as some people imagine! Lot's of airline pilots dream of actual hands on flying. With many Company SOPs now demanding autopilot use they tend to do most of the latter in a sim once a year! A long haul pilot might only get 2 landings a a month.

The industry is changing - there are instructor jobs out there offering GBP40k salaries and no i don't mean just the highly experienced Twin IR Oxford/CTC/Cabair postions.

Flying is something you must stay current on or interviewers will think you're not committed enough and you will feel less able to do a sim ride. Get him airborne at least once a month. If that is out of reach finacially, make sure he at least practices on MS Flight Sim or Xplane things like ILS approaches to minima.

Other job options options include local flying club ferry flying, freight flying with light twins, relief work in Africa on turbine aeroplanes, etc etc....

Above all don't give up without exploring ALL the options! All the best!

[scroggs]

Angrywife as I am an airline pilot, and also moderator of this website, you'll probably dismiss everything I have to say. I'll take that risk!

This industry is much the same as any other in that it requires those who wish to work in it to get themselves qualified to do so before they apply for a job. They aren't fully-qualified, but most of the way there. Those qualifications are taken on a speculative basis - the wannabe takes the risk that there may not be a job for them at the end of their training. If you look at law, medicine and a number of other attractive professions, mature entrants in all of them pay a great deal of money to achieve their qualifications - in some rare circumstances, more than wannabe pilots.

However, flying is different in that the numbers who want to do the job are far more than there are jobs to go to, This has always been the case and, even now when commercial aviation is expanding faster than ever, remains the case now. This is no industrial secret; the information was out there before your husband started training. He took the risk, and he must accept the consequences of that risk. If he failed to adequately understand the risk, or to communicate it to you, that is not the fault of the industry. It is not airlines' role to pick up all those people who want to pilot airliners, pat them on the head and tell them 'Don't worry, we'll have a job for you,' before they start.

The process of obtaining a job in this industry is potentially very frustrating and difficult. The 'shelf-life' of a pilot's qualifications is short. Of the many hundreds who start off down this road every year, several - maybe 30% - will not make it to their desired airline job. If anyone is at fault for suggesting otherwise, it is the training industry, not the airlines. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that profits out of people buying training for which there may be no market. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that has a vested interest in getting as many people through the door as possible. They (well, most of them) don't really care whether a student gets employed or not; once they have his money, it's get the next one into the sausage machine. The airlines have nothing to do with that.

You have my sympathy for your predicament, but a read through this forum will demonstrate that you are far from on your own. There are many, many here who have let hope and desire cloud their judgement.

Perhaps there should be an Aviation Anonymous for all those whose uncontrolled desire to fly has ruined their lives...

Scroggs

[angelorange]

Scroggs

AA for wanabee pilots? Whilst I agree flying an aeroplane can be addictive and certainly very expensive I do not think the act of learning the required techniques can be accused of ruining people's lives. GAPAN would surely have something to say here about transferable life skills, communication abilities, spatial awareness, etc.

Unless ......ah ! you may be refering to that other thread about global warming and the evils of aero emissions.......!

[class a]

you dont need to renew the IR in the aircraft it can all be done in the Sim

[LightspeedS]

how difficult are those africa relief jobs to get?

[Fletch]

Your partner is only experiencing what the majority of people encounter when pursuing their first position with an airline. Even in these healthy times of pilot recruitment the market is still very competitive. An article in this months Flyer magazine said that Flybe received over 1300 applications last year for about 70 jobs(if memory serves correct)! There are only a few who are lucky enough to go straight from their MCC and into their first airline flying job. With these sorts of odds I hope your partner did some serious research before parting with £65 000.

If your partner is not a member of BALPA I would recommend him to join as they have some useful information for low hours pilots on how to build hours for the airlines and also information from the airlines on what they want from applicants.

Good luck to both you and your partner and hopefully he'll get a break soon.

[UP and Down Operator]

Angrywife: I am sorry to sound a bit harsh here, but the fact that your partner pays a lot of money and does a lot of training, gives him no rights at all for a job.

I got my own commercial licenses in january 2002 (just after the terror attacks on world trade), and used the following 3 years to brand myself and get a descent job. That was with flying moonlight taxiflying (glad I am anonymous here :E ) , flying skydivers and showing friends and families how the world looked from above in a little 4 seater that i leased. All of it to accumulate hours to get the first job on a turboprop.
After that some years with low salaries where I had to have a fulltime job on the ground to be able to afford flying for the low-paying GA companies.

All very hard work, but it landed the job I wanted, and I am to start in a months time = 5 years + after i obtained my licenses.

I am just glad that the airlines have stopped taking in people with 250 hrs on the big jets, as I don't like to sit as a passenger with inexperienced crew up front. And sorry to say, but you only learn basic flying skills on a flightschool. The real skills have to be learned in the "traffic", just like with a drivers license.
Unfortunately that also means that you can not go directly from school and into a jet so many places anymore, but as mentioned here by others, then that information have been available to your husband before he started the course.

I feel sorry for the financial situation it has put you in, but there is only two things to say to that:

1. That is the same for most other people who starts in this industry, but information about this topic is far mor accesible for newstarters now, via the internet, then for those starting say 10 years ago. It is about doing the research and then sit with the calculator and see if you can afford what it costs to be a pilot. (AND i agree, it IS way to expencive allready).

2. Don't be picky with the jobs. Start from scratch and do the hard work to gather some flying hours and get some experience. It takes time and the road is long, but if you keep working hard the results will show.

Happiness requires hard work :ok:

[sir.pratt]

I'm sure most people on here sympathise with your situation, mostly because many have been there. The reason though that Easyjet et al employ 250 hr pilots is that those pilots have been through an organisation that trains them accoring to what EJ wants. Not to say it's better or worse, but essentially those pilots had a job with an airline before they flew a single hour!

How old is your husband? Can he possibly lower his sights a little and get a freighter job? A parachute job? An instructor job? Maybe he sould get in the car and go and visit some people. Aviation is about who you know, much, much more than what you know, and sausage rolls and Stella Artois are worth 100 times more than an anonomous CV recieved via e-mail.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Before PPRuNe existed and the Wannabes forums in particular I would have every sympathy. The fact that here exists, that every grisly feature of the bleak bleak path is documented many times, that the massive gamble your husband took; all lessen my sympathy.

I am not unsympathetic. I've been there and got the rejection letters.

BUT.

Unsolicted CVs and unsolicted doorstepping of airlines is slightly lower than junk mail and squigy merchants. Silence or a Sod Off is perfectly reasonable from them.

Quite probably your husband will join the ranks of the 60% of people who complete the ATPL exams but never get a commercial type rating. I hope not as otherwise its time, money and effort down the drain. But it is probable.

This far in its often rational to pay for a type rating as its much cheaper than simply writing off the investment so far. Best he does this before someone stops Iran getting a bomb or the UK housing market collapse happens or the next Sept11th happens.

Life is full of risks. Becoming a commerical pilots is fuller than most - of both life and risks. Its why so many try AND why so many fail.

Good luck.

WWW


ps As an aside. Folks. Something often overlooked is the effect your ambition will have on those you love. It can be massively negative. Factor that in.

[BAP]

Sorry but my partner is 34 years old and is a lot more mature than some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!

Angrywife, I do feel sympathy with your situation, but no more than I feel for everybody else without a job.

Your partner is 34, and has completed his training back in july last year..
So to me, he or you has absolutely no right to complain. Everybody knows(if they have made just the smallest amount of research) that when you pass the age of 30, it is going to become harder and harder to land that first job..

Almost every new pilot I know, has been unemployed for atleast a year, but more commen between 1 1/2 and 2 years before they got there first job..

Back the age issue. You do more or less say that your husband is more entitled to a job, because he is more "mature", than other qualified candidates.
I can inform you that I am 23 and is flying big commercial jets, which I have done for about 4 months now. I have gone through extensive screening along with both older and far more experience guys than myself, but they decided to offer me the job, because of my personality. I then got extra training than they would normally give there pilots, in order to make sure that I got to the required standard, before I was released to fly on the line. And I didn't know anybody within the airline or any other airline for that matter!!

I had to wait for 1 1/2 years before I finally got a chance to proof myself to an airline, and just as everybody else, I was sending more CV's out than I can count to.
In the mean time I had to work with something else. I worked in airports in order to try to get to know people, and I was actually offered two jobs on small propeller aircrafts, just before I got the job which I have now..

am just glad that the airlines have stopped taking in people with 250 hrs on the big jets, as I don't like to sit as a passenger with inexperienced crew up front. And sorry to say, but you only learn basic flying skills on a flightschool. The real skills have to be learned in the "traffic", just like with a drivers license.

Well, I am sorry to hear that, but to be honest in order to get the job you will have to pass all the same tests and exams as everybody else, so although you're not experienced, you still have the have required skills to cope with emergencies.

I have personally already tried things that most pilots never experience, and in both cases I recieved great feedback from the captain, because he was very pleased with my way handling the situation and with my help.
None of us know how we react in a real emergency, but I know already. Fortunately enough, both cases turned out to be false alarm!

So please don't say all the crap about you don't wan't to fly with inexperienced pilots, because we will all have to start somewhere...
And why do you feel that it's okay to have inexperience pilots on turbo-props, they are just as likely to be involved in an emergency, where you have to count on the "young" F/O...

That was just my view..
Angrywife, I wish your husband all the best of luck!
/BAP

[bluepeely]

At least your husband has one thing that i, or possibly quite a few as us on here, has not got and thats a wife/missus who shows an interest in achieving his ambition. My missus still thinks i'm living in a dream and its never going to happen and she knows naff all about the aviation industry. Perhaps she will when she gets wind of the re-mortgage but thats beside the point:uhoh: . My point is if he knows the industry and your there to help him and support him his time will come and it'll all be worth it. Read of some sucess stories on here and you'll see its possible.
Good luck

[nomercy]

I can understand why someone who is not familiar with aviation and airlines is shocked and angry about her spouse spending a small fortune and not finding a job. I know it's a bit late now but if you had researched in detail prior to training you would have found many other people are in that situation.
Instructing is a fairly good option if you can find another 5-6K for several reasons - You will gain valuable experience and keep current - you will earn some money - you stand a good chance of meeting people who can help you to advance your career and you will probably enjoy it!
Paying for type ratings is a big gamble that has worked for some and not for others but including expenses a jet rating will cost you between 20 -24k
Another thing you need to take into account is that if you do find an airline job are you prepared to relocate which is more expense. Two out of the three flying jobs i have had have been based over two hundred miles from home and several friends who have just gained their first jobs are Scotland based.
Good luck!

[suger]

i know its not easy i have all this to look forward too and im female trying to get into a mans world so it will be tough for sure....men always say women have equile rights in this game but it bull,just hang in there both of you somethimg will come up i do know easyjet are taking on loads of pilots this year give them a go and if he knows anyone already working for them they have a recommend a fellow pilot thing going on! wish i could give you a hug and say everything will be ok,it will be worth it when he gets a f.o job honest
take care x;)

[Vortex Thing]

class a Errm stop making it up you can't renew every year in the sim anymore.

suger Whoever told you that this aviation malarky is unbiased and equal was lying to you. Everybody knows that being a girl you have much more chance than most of getting an interview and a job as the balance is need of redress. I wouldn't worry too much about being mistreated if I were you :rolleyes:


Angrywife I feel for you and my wife has shared your frsutration but like numerous have said on this thread alone you really haven't looked at the reality of this industry very much if you think that you're situation is anything other than excellent.

Your husband is current and still keen, he may even have to work out of avaition for a few years and still keep current before he gets a reply much less an interview. People above have mentioned waiting for 1-2 yrs before getting a sniff if I am honest I would say that they are being optimistic. There are many many pilots who I met on my type rating who had waited over 3-5 years to get even one interview with an airline.

The suggestions above are very good if you want to support him get of this site except for reasearch and get packing to go round the world with your hubby to anywhere where they will let him fly paid or not. Go to Africa, Asia or even Liverpool and when there are no jobs anywhere then complain.
If this seems too extreme then you have to question if you and him want it enough. If you do then there is no price that you will not pay to get it.
Best of luck for you both. I'm sorry to not seem supportive but being realistic and never giving up is what will make this work. That said a good rant every now and then does help most.

VT

[bluepeely]

"wish i could give you a hug and say everything will be ok,it will be worth it when he gets a f.o job honest
take care x;) "

Well done suger thats what this place needs more love. Lets all get on and spread the love seeing as its a beautiful sunday.

Peace , light and love from bluepeely :yuk:

[Wodka]

Angrywife... if you both went into this thing without your eyes WIDE open then your either

a) an idiot

or

b) extremely naive

Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."

If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!

[spitfire_007]

surely this can't be right?:confused:

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=72atp32mcyhb454zp6rt7ph6h4fryk2vc2bpt3ytp5uf yn48ggp

I am amazed if this actually happens and pilots are prepared to do this, even after the substantial expense of ATPL training.

[geraldn]

Angrywife... if you both went into this thing without your eyes WIDE open then your either
a) an idiot
or
b) extremely naive
Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."
If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!
Now hold an a minute !, i am 100% sure that irregardless of the outcome of any research done any aspiring pilot would take the plunge anyway,it would be more naive to think that a student pilot who reads that the job prospects are all gloom and doom would simply say
"f#$k it then,ill become a plumber/doctor etc",

i personally knew what the deal is and obviously had to wait nearly a year b4 i got my break and nothing would have stopped me from reaching my goal,
so lets stop replying to this post with an "i told you so" attitude and give some support and empathy,after all as some of us said we have all been there,done that and got the t-shirt.

[Cabair351]

I graduated in October. I have applied to literally hundreds and hundreds of companies around the world in the last few months and have not even received so much as a hint for an interview. I am now considering remortgaging my house to do an A320 type rating with line training.

However even before starting my ATPL training i knew how difficult it would be to get a job but i am also certain one day i will get a job.

Just stay positive and something will work out.

[PlaneHomerS]

Instruct or buy a type rating. :(

[class a]

It is his first renewal so it can be done in the Sim every other one has to be done in the aircraft and anyway even in the Aircraft it does not cost anywere near £5000 I just renewed after a long break from flying and the whole thing including the multi engine renewal and it cost me under £1500

[spitfire_007]

Angrywife, stay positive! Your husband will need your continued support throughout his search for a position.

Click on the link below to see, what he will be doing in the future. Hope it cheers both of you up and other qualified pilots out there, in the same perdicament.

spitfire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMDDgrRH2w

[Shiny side down]

Angrywife. We were there too.

It is a risk, and an expensive one at that with no guarantee. But stay positive. As previously suggested, even had you both known in advance how difficult it would be, you may have gone ahead anyway.

For what it's worth, here my path to where I am now.
I started flying (PPL) at 27, ran out of money for a while. Stayed in my old job, got seriously fed up, and finished PPL off much later, with licence issue for CPL/IR in mid 2000, and first job in Late 2003.
How my wife coped is beyond me(in fact we weren't married at the time). Dark times, but also good times. We both worked towards the future, struggling together.(sounds corny, but hey)
75% of the guys on the IR courses with me were in the same boat. As far as I know, all have good jobs now. Some have commands on Jets. Others like myself are getting close to it. Many have been through some lesser jobs first.

Set aside the less helpful posts on here. Look at the many others that demonstrate that this is not an unusual situation.

The first hurdle has been achieved. Licence issued and qualified.
Next hurdle is staying proficient. I used to rent a twin once a month and fly the local procedures. But it's not the only way. I wouldn't even suggest that keeping the IR continuously current is the way to go. Renewing rather than revalidating, may be a wise choice. Simulator is a good way to do this.

What is important now is stay positive, and try not to let the lack of an aviation job define your lives. Get on with your lives. Seriously consider ANY opportunities that are presented.

[Gnirren]

What is important now is stay positive, and try not to let the lack of an aviation job define your lives.

One important point I would stress after personal experience. Aviation I find is unique in that you have to basically let the industry define your life. It can be pretty volatile and if you get laid off or the company goes belly up you'll find yourself moving to get a job again, quite possibly to another country. I fly with countless guys who all have ended up commuting to their families from abroad after flying at home for years because of changing circumstances.

It's a luxury to fly airplanes and be able to live a stable life where you come home at the end of a working day. I think this is something that gets lost on many aspiring pilots who only see the good aspects of flying. Basically flying is a lifestyle, and it will dictate many aspects of your life.

This is the most crucial thing to consider in my mind, for family members definitely. Getting hired is just scratching the surface, ask yourself are you prepared to move to another country for your husbands career? 5 years from now if he gets a base change or gets laid off, are you prepared to move to yet another country to survive? If you have kids settled in school and you stay, are you prepared to have him commuting and seeing him 12 days out of the month? What if he does long-haul and almost never comes home?

I could easily name a number of captains who are working on divorce number 2 or 3 and it's no fun. Not trying to put you or him off, but these scenarios are not extreme in any way I don't think.

Another thing you can do is sign up at this forum, it's basically the wife of a US pilot who started a forum for the families (wives mostly of course) and they can surely give you their opinion of what it's like to live with a pilot.

http://www.pilotfamilies.com/joomla/index.php

[Megaton]

I'm sorry but I don't remember anyone telling me I'd get a job. I don't remember anyone telling me it would be cheap either. And, as far as I can see, not one of the airlines asked him to start training. And completing a CPL/IR does not make someone fully qualified - airlines don't fly light twins.
Before you jump in, I'm older than your husband and married with a young family. I paid for all my training myself whilst working full-time. I also had to leave my former employer before looking for airline work. In my current company there are approx 100 "qualified" applicants for every successful one. And by "qualified" I mean pilots experienced on a current airline-type.
RyanAir can afford to take on 250 hr pilots because their T & C s are rubbish. That company is undermining the industry and giving passengers an unrealistic expectation of the true cost of air travel.
There is another potential issue here. With self-funded training, you have no guarantee that a company will see you as a suitable co-pilot. Flying for a reputable company is more than simply turning up with a licence. Most airlines recrut F/Os with a view to them becoming captains and not everyone has this potential. Perhaps the fault lies with the training schools. I saw people scraping through the course but passing; however, they were never going to get a job in a million years.
Of course, you don't want to hear any of this. You want to blame someone becuase your husband doesn't have a job. Well, it's a precarious job at the best of times - just ask those people who were looking for jobs post-Gulf War I or 9/11.

[Jonty]

You lot aren't very nice are you. The poor lady wanted to vent her spleen and release some of the pent up frustration that she feels, we all do it from time to time.
I have every sympathy with anyone who is in this situation, it took me over a year to get my first job.
My advice is to hang in there, and do what you can to stand out from the crowd. At the moment your partner has the bear minimum for a job, hundreds of others are the in the same boat. Anything he can do to stand out is helpful.
As for airlines replying, the fleet manager in the airline I work for has over 150 CV's on his desk and receives new ones at the rate of nearly 10 a day. So replying is not really an option.
If he needs help with CV construction, networking, and interviews then get in touch with Pilot Pete, he is a frequent visitor around these parts, and can help a great deal in getting noticed.
Good luck in the search and stay positive, and remember that 75% of the people who set out to be pilots never make it this far! And its worth it in the end!

[Callsign Kilo]

Both Flyboy and Ham Phisted make some valid points about recruitment. It is a well publicised fact that every low hour pilot will not walk into an airline job when they have completed initial training, however it is not JUST because there isn't a job there. It is rightly said that people try to get into this profession for all the wrong reasons. Flying a shiney jet around the world, staying in 5 star hotels, being paid massive amounts of money and living a glamorous lifestyle is just some of the disillusions that I have witnessed people having. This, as the majority of people here will know, is not the airline industry of today; yet you would be suprised how many people still believe it to be this way! People read about "Mass Global Pilot Shortages" and dive head first into training; believing that BA, Virgin and others will be headhunting them through their training. I say this with a little 'tounge in cheek,' however in some of the FTO open days that I attended before deciding on where I should train, I found a lot of people in the same position as myself believing this.
The other side of the story is that some people are and never will be suited to the job. They may be one of the most fantastically talented pilots that there is, however their attitude, personality or concept of what it takes to fly an airliner couldn't be anything further than what is required. FlyBe's TP Chief Captain recently stated that a recent low-time interviewee suggested that pilots had no role to play when it came to keeping the passengers informed throughout a flight, as it was the pilot's job to fly the plane and nothing else! Understandibly the interview came to an abrupt end right there. It would undoubtably be the same case for those who maintained a 'know it all attitude' or those who had a personality that would never be deemed appropriate for the flightdeck. These people are out there, I have met some of them, and it comes with no suprise to me that they haven't had recommendations, interviews or jobs. It's also not suprising to note that these are the people wearing the massive chip on their shoulder about the industry, as if it owes them something because they are qualified! I actually find it quite sad to see that they fail to realise that this is more down to themselves than the industry.
I'm sure that this is not the case with your husband, Angrywife - well I hope not anyway! He may be experiencing a bit of bad luck at the moment, however with the right attitude and drive HE WILL GET THERE.

[Lucifer]

For some reason when a doctor or a lawyer graduates he/ she is not driven to the point of despair and does not have to beg for a first job wherever it is.
Unfortunately for lawyers, this is certainly not the case. In fact many pay BPP or others a fortune and equally get nowhere without a sponsorship of a law firm.

Flying is not unique in this respect - there is a market, and it involves a large dergee of luck, skill and stamina to win.

[Rock Lobster]

Angrywife,
I am 34 years old, with a wife and a young son and all the attached financial committments. I started my flying training in October 2004 and completed everything by the middle of November 2005. This I thought would stand me in good stead to get into a right hand seat of something fairly quickly!
However, as many people on this forum will tell you and already have done, there is no certainty in this line of business. Good luck, Big pockets and maybe good looks can have a big influence on how long it takes to get that elusive first job, but at the end of the day, drive and determination are paramount with the addition of self belief.
From my initial job applications going out in January 2006, to the first hint of anything reasonable, took about a year. Now, I am 2 weeks away from starting my type rating on a B737 with a very reputable scheduled airline and the world is looking very rosey again.
There are positions out there, and being in the right place at the right time is vital, but your husband will need to fight hard to get himself in that position in the first place.
The effort can definately pay off.
Best of luck
RL

[TurboJ]

Network, network, network........

[Angrywife]

He has had a few sniffs and some very good ones but people say they will call him and then they don't. This is why it's so frustrating!
Thank you to everyone who has been sympathetic on here it's also nice to have some positive feedback.:)

[bjbb]

Feel free to add comments but I’m sure if the comments come from a person at an airline it will all be excuses and crap. Sorry but my partner is 34 years old and is a lot more mature than some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!

im not in that boat yet, but i can imagine how annoying and frustrating it can be. However, i thought one comment was a little unfair, my father is a pilot and i wish to become a pilot also, it has been a dream of mine for many many years and now im trying to turn it into reality... but just because my father is a pilot doesnt mean im just going to walk in. I am competing with all the other applicants just as everyone else is. Aviation requires the highest of standards as im sure you are all aware and and if any of us cannot meet those standards then we do not fly wether or not you father is in the same company.

Having said that, best of luck that life takes a turn for the better.

[TurboJ]

but just because my father is a pilot doesnt mean im just going to walk in.

Yes it does...your Dad should be able to get you an interview.....maybe not with his company but I would expect he has mates with other companies.

once you have the interview, the rest is up to you.

TJ

[Justine]

Hi Angrywife
I'm in a pretty similar boat - but we sold the house to fund my husband's training.
I am not negative however. He is an instructor right now and is a very happy husband. He has been accepted and is doing the AQC thing with CTC.
Yes, we live in a rented house and I have to work full time to ensure all the bills are paid but we had a fantastic 20 months living in Florida, my daughter proudly tells all her friends that her daddy is a pilot, and the possibilities for the future are myriad.
It hasn't happened as fast as we had hoped, but things are moving forward. The best thing I can suggest is the instructor rating thing, he now has in excess of 1000 hours and that in itself has opened up the opportunity to apply for other airline jobs.

In reply to all those who have knocked you, I would say that they have absolutely no comprehension of how it feels to be a spectator to the ridiculous employment practices in this industry.
I am a professional, however my training costs were subsidised by the government at University and any further skills and additional qualifications required by my employers are funded by them. This is what is deemed normal in the rest of the professional world!

Hope he finds a job soon, but I really think instructing is a good option for him to look at.

[Orvil]

Hi Angrywife,
I'm in the same position as your Husband. I'm a little older and now getting divorced !!
My "partner" up'd sticks and left for a normal life, whatever that is!:eek:
I would ignore all the negative comments and thank the Lord that you are still together.
I'm about start an Instructor rating and have a job to go to when I'm finished. I would advise the other half to think about doing the same but only after a few more months of really pushing himself. I've also found another non-aviation job to supplement the Instructor pay (I'll be working from home), so may be He could do the same (if money is really tight), there's tonnes of Jobs that are pretty flexible. If He does go down the Instructor route before paying out any more I would find the Instructor Job first. I've been told that it makes the training a lot less stressful knowing you've definately got a job.
Considering all my problems, I'm still positive about the future even though my personal life is a shambles :} and I live like a peasent :E
In a few years time you'll both sit back and laugh about the situation.


P.s GOODLUCK!

[smith]

My jibe about McDonald's harps back to a few years ago when there were fewer jobs and the joke was "What do you say to a guy with an fATPL?" "Big Mac and fries please!!". I removed it myself as it is not relevent today and on hindsight was a bit mean.
Personally I sold my house and bought an apartment to fund my training. I still have the CPL and MCC to do, but do it in little chunks while still working in between.
I went into this with my eyes open and do not expect to walk into a job when I finally get all the bits of paper. In fact it actually scares me when I sign up for my next module and arrive at the flight school to see it inundated with potential f/o's. The number of guys self funding at the moment is mind blowing and has certainly taken me aback.
For me I see it like the national lottery "you gotta be in it to win it", if I don't have the bits of paper I won't get a job that is for sure, if I do have the bits of paper at least I'll have a chance. I don't believe anybody owes me a job, yes it would be nice to think that after spending all that money, and in my mind possessing very unique and specialised skills that you would be highly saught after, however it's market forces and I know there will be many, many others out there with the same skills as myself to compete against.

Really Angrywife, you should not be angry with the airlines, they are not charities (or rather they are as they will take money from whatever source they can get) they can not just hand out jobs willy nilly to fulfill someone's dream. They have to make a profit and keep the shareholders happy. If they did just hand out jobs they would exceed the salary budget, put the company in a financially precarious position and jeopordise the jobs of hundreds of people. I can sympathise with you're plight but business is business and can remember the early 90's when people in all industries were being made reduntant and home repossessions were soaring, and these were people in normal jobs who had not paid for any training. Business is a cut-throat game and is there to make money for the shareholders and not to make dreams come true no matter what industry you in.

[spitfire_007]

"however it's market forces and I know there will be many, many others out there with the same skills as myself to compete against."



You better believe it.....there will be more "fresh pilots" banging on the door of airline companies than presents being opened on christmas day!

[spitfire_007]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3139120#post3139120

:confused:

[Vortex Thing]

Justine. You are the epitomy of an aviation wife. I hope that all of your partners are show her post as a tribute to what sacrifice really means.

I wish your husband the best of luck on his AQC and subsequent job. It is worth it and with the sort of support you are exhibiting he will find it many many times easier. :D :D :D :D

I raise a glass to you and all husbands and wifes out there who apply the same dedication to achieving thier aims. :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Justine]

Vortex Thing,

Thankyou for the round of applause.

[Stratman]

Angry Wife,
Your feelings are completely understandable, to throw tens of thousands of pounds into training and see no return on that investment is not desirable but it happens all too often in this industry. There is an earlier post by Gnirren which is very accurate and not often talked about, to do with the realities of this job. It does end up running your life, you may buy a house, settle the children at a school only to be told that your husbands base is to be changed and that may be several hundreds of miles away. He will have two choices at that point move or leave, this industry is very unforgiving in its treatment of staff and is becoming more so due to gross oversupply.There are some terrible companies to work for [ I`ve worked for some of them} Back in the 80`s when I started there were companies whose manner of operation would frighten the life out of many new pilots, I`ll go no futher on that theme because you really would not want to know. Training schools have long since kept very quiet about the `downsides` flying for a living and believe me when I say there are many. They trade on what is percieved as a dream job but there is no such thing and if there is then is certainly is not being a commercial pilot.Yes it can be exciting, satisfying and rewarding sometimes but then again so can many other jobs, what really makes it unique is the crushing amount of financial investment and insecurity of persons in your situation for something that in my opinion after 21 years does not equal the sum of its parts and is getting noticably worse. I wish him good luck and hope he finds what he is searching for.

[High Wing Drifter]

It does end up running your life, you may buy a house, settle the children at a school only to be told that your husbands base is to be changed and that may be several hundreds of miles away.
Long hours, living in hotels for months, sudden family disruption are not things unique to aviation, maybe not as bad as some airlines yet but demanding non the less. Many employers across various industries are now expecting their employees to be incredibly flexible. In the programme I'm currently on the boss now sets the work agenda for the weekend almost as if it is part of the working week. People just take it or else find their future options very limited. The erosion of T&Cs is apparent to many people across many industrial sectors.

[bjbb]

some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!

Im not in that boat yet but i can imagine how frustrating and stressful it can be and I hope he finds a job soon. However, i felt that your comment on younger pilots was a little unfair. Aviation, as we all know, demands the highest of standards from every indvidual regardless of whether your siblings/family are in the airline, however, if one doesnt cut the mustard, one doesnt get a job/qualification regardless of whether your father is in the airline.

This may sound totally crazy, but if you are both flexible enough and he wants it enough then look east, China avaition is booming and there is a shortage of pilots over there. obviously a bit of a lifesytle change...!

Nevertheless best of luck,

bjbb

[davey147]

The problem he has is the same as the rest, he is a low houred pilot.

Get an instructors rating, build up to 1500 hours, then apply for jobs.

Or gamble and buy a TR, I would never do this though unless there is a GUARANTEED job at the end of it. But many people are lucky going down this route.

[almostsane]

To be honest, if your partner only qualified last summer he's not doing that bad.
I qualified in 2003 and have just started a job with an airline. It's a long, hard battle and very demoralising, but you have to keep on going.
I know a number of people who have waited 2-3 years for their first airline job.
Just dont give up and good luck

[shaun ryder]

At 34 you will need a large amount of luck on your side with low hours to progress into an airline. It took me 3 years just to get my first interview, then along came the second and the third spaced approx 1 year apart. I was a working pilot during this time also! There are some valid points on here about spending the extra money to get the F.I rating, gaining the valued hours which can help you progress on to the air taxi pilot role (if you got the balls haha!) Once in this domain, confidence in your self ability increases! You will become a more attractive option to a prospective employer. Remember the age vs experience thing, old age + no experience is not everyones cup of tea. You might want to think about that.

Good luck

[south coast]

You're twisting my melons man...

[shootfromthehip]

Firstly take the positive from these posts.... your Husband needs to stay positive to keep up the energy needed in pursuing this career, and your support will be a great help to him.

From my experience everyone who I did my initial training with, who didn't give up, is now employed (qualified 2001/02), many on there second type. Out of those, three were in their early forties. Those who really want the job (as long as they make the grade ie sim chk etc) will get there.

Staying current is the key.

- Keep IR current (before my 1st job I re-newed my IR for £600)
- Build experience/hours by taking friends/family on trips/glider towing/meat bombing...... any way you can.
- Consider Instructor rating
- Regular jet sim time, as an interview plus sim chk will come with little notice (I don't know where you live but there used to be a Trident sim at Biggen which was cheap as chips!)

When sending off CV's always follow up with a telephone call and try to build up contacts. You'll have to be thick skinned for this!

I might be repeating stuff previously said but I couldn't be bovvered to read all the posts. :=

Just remember it's not unusual to take a couple of years or more to land that first job!

Best of luck Mr&Mrs:}

[zakka]

Aviation, as we all know, demands the highest of standards from every indvidual regardless of whether your siblings/family are in the airline, however, if one doesnt cut the mustard, one doesnt get a job/qualification regardless of whether your father is in the airline.



bjbb, you will be surprised how the aviation industry actually works. As in any other business, it is a definite advantage to know somebody inside the company when you are looking for a job. Sure, you still have to pass the sim, interview etc, but it does help a lot. That's how it works in Europe. Asia is a different story. Most places in Asia, especially South East Asia, if your father is a captain for an airline there, you WILL 95% sure get a job as long as you have a valid flying license and puts on some nice clothes.

With regard to jobhunting: If you ask a flying school, they will tell you right now is the best time to become a pilot, because there are actually quite a lot of people getting jobs these days. The only problem is that these people have paid an additional GBP 20K and probably work with very poor terms and conditions.
Looking at the Aviation industry over the past 10-15 years, it has only got worse with regards to terms and conditions for pilots.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best with the jobhunting. Just suck it up for the first couple years, and then the job is not so bad.

Good luck

Zakka

[scroggs]

The 'Dynamic Apathy' discussion has been moved here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3150825&postcount=670).

Scroggs

[tagdenmedro]

Guys and Gals
I think many of you are very right in your wievs on The Industry. And I love reading about it. Mostly because I have seized to tell my friends and family about it - they simply don´t believe me. They think I'm full of self petty... and it can' be that hard. I know you know all the comments. I finished my training i early 2003. The usual story: Bankrupt schools, bad maintained planes. The Works.Nothing new there..
A captain once told me that the only reason why monkeys don't pilot aeroplanes is because they can' sepak english. Wtith I'm still batteling (as you may allready have noticed, but I'm getting there. The fact is that its actually fairly easy to become a pilot. Takes about 1,5 years and cost about half a house. It does'nt realy take that much brains or skill. anyone can become a pilot.
BUT...... employment - getting thet fxxxxxg job- makes climbing Mount Everest look like a walk in the park.
I have now been sitting in a nice turboprop wtih 1500 good ones in The Book. But getting there was a struggle and I think I know about 10 mio ways of making a can of tomatos and som macarony taste delicious. I still do.
I got my seat emptying the toilets on the same aircraft I'm now F/O on. For TWO YEARS!! I still can't use that same toilet - it makes me sick just looking at it.
My point: Hang in there. One day all you dreams and ambitions are no longer dreams. Get your fingers in the pie.

[spitfire_007]

:confused:

I would not clean any toilets for any airline or hand-out snacks and drinks, after spending such huge amounts on training.........to land a F/O job! You got your job, best of luck to you and your future.....


I'm seriously thinking about investing my £100,000 in something else, where the rewards etc etc etc are far greater than Aviation Industry.....

[Mungo Man]

Spitfire, it just goes to show, there are those who want it, and those who really really really want it. Some people are very very dedicated/persistant people.

I for one spent 18 months baggage handling at LHR. Tough job for a small person, crap weather, cramped conditions, crap pay, got stick from colleagues for studying on the job for ATPLs....

... it was part of the long process that got me into the right hand seat of a jet though.

[EGCC4284]

9 years as an aircraft refueller and I finish this job in 2 weeks time. Start my 737 type rating in 7 weeks time.

I know quite a few who were baggage handlers or dispatchers who now fly jets for a living.

One baggage handler started out at Brymon/BA Connect and has just gone to Monarch.

Another guy I know work at Serviceair at Manchester and is now with Ryanair.

Working on the ramp helps you build up contacts and get inside information.

Network, network, network is the key.

At the last BALPA conference, half the pilot managers already new me

[s artois]

Well "Angry Wife".

In an industry on the upturn your husband must be fairly **** if he can't land a job, excuse the pun!!!:=

Should have bought that kitchen in B&Q:D

[Earthmover]

Angrywife a few words from the ‘excuses and crap’ department. I’ve been involved in training, management and recruiting in the airlines for about a quarter of a century and have as a consequence some sense of what is wanted by these carriers and how the positions within them are allocated.

As many of the posts here indicate, your anger is, sadly, based upon a somewhat false premise – that is that if you go out and fund yourself by fabulous amounts of cash, that this in itself should raise your chances of getting that first job. Furthermore, you seem to feel that there is in some way a moral obligation on the airlines to employ such a candidate in preference to say, someone who’s Father paid for the training or who has in other ways not suffered the same financial stress. In short – you paid a fortune, so we ‘owe you one’ for bothering. It is a simple fact that this is simply not the way it works and the airlines are generally, I’m sorry to tell you, almost entirely indifferent to the source of finance for the original training. The fairness or otherwise of that fact is, I’m afraid, neither here nor there. There is a frequently held view that the passion and dedication shown by re-mortgaging your house etc and putting yourself in debt by enormous amounts will somehow impress the airlines with your fantastic tenacity against the odds and make you the prime candidate. Sorry, but this is bunkum – utter baloney. When we are trying to fill that coveted right-hand seat with a balanced mix of experience we are interested in how well you fly, how well you ‘fit in’ (and there’s a subject on it’s own worth its own thread!) how you present yourself, how articulate you are, whether you’re a closet psychotic, how well you have prepared for both the interview and your career… well, the list goes on and on, but generally your previous financial arrangements don’t feature too highly. Ability does.

As it happens, I personally view the emergence of total self-finance as entirely lamentable, but it is an absolute fact that whether you, your partner or I like it or not, the market dominates. At this time the airlines are not short of applications from inexperienced pilots like your chap – in fact we are swamped with ‘em. It is experienced pilots that are in short supply, and the recruitment people must balance the experience levels across their fleets. You simply cannot have an airline full of what many companies choose to call ‘cadets’ so places for such pilots will be, of necessity, limited. And, by the way, in nearly forty years as a pilot I have only once seen someone shoehorned in by his Father .. and ironically, however much we hated the situation – and we did, believe me – he turned out to be a really first class pilot, damnit.

For what it’s worth, I love the opportunity to give someone like your bloke a chance, but it it’s clearly impossible to give ‘em all a go, and it so happens that at this moment my particular outfit have no vacancies for ‘newbies.’ It’s simply a commercial fact – in no way is it a vendetta against people like your partner. Eventually there’ll be vacancies, but it’s solely the commercial success of the airline that will determine when they occur.

I can speak with some authority on this subject for another reason than the rôle I hold now. I was in precisely the same position when I started. I commenced flight training in my late teens, and checked out in the right hand seat of an airliner at age 29 and I was flat, stony broke when I did - so 8 months is not a huge amount in that context eh? So, keep the faith, keep looking and pray for some luck – an element that holds more of a grip on success than it has a right to.

There has been a lot of really good advice in this thread – and may I direct you again to the post by scroggs – someone who writes total good sense in thread after thread; also the words from the Wee Weasly Welshman .. and ignore the disgraceful post from S Artois.

Good luck - genuinely - good luck.

[Superpilot]

As has been mentioned this is all about expectations and sometimes false expectations. Angrywife in your situation your partner is quite older than most wannabes starting out therefore what I'm about to relate probably doesn't apply but because money (or the lack of it post training) is likely to be the root cause of your concern, I'll say it anyway.

I attained my PPL at age 18 with very high hopes of going commercial before 21. I even missed out on a degree because I was that eager! I'm now approaching 26 and currently in the middle of preparing for my ATPL exams. The big gap was due to a change of heart (post 9/11) realising that the world was not such an innocent place and that war, debt, lack of opportunities and economic turndown were all realities that could put me in a really bad position. I also had a medical scare (which thankfully is a distant memory now) which made me very quickly realise the fragility of any career as an Airline Pilot. All this forced me to look at other careers and I found one. Very quickly earning a respectable salary (£45k) which you'll agree is fantastic for someone in their mid-20s (you see flyboy1818 degrees are really not required to increase your salary; make one more intelligent; or to appear much more hard working!).

A couple of years ago I fell in love with the idea again (as it was the only thing I dreamt of as a child) so decided to enroll onto a distance learning program and complete my commercial training. Making slow progress now because I have all the baggage of a settled man but I'm financially stable and my expectations I think are good. In a nutshell I do not mind one bit if my first commercial opportunity comes at age 30.

I've seen far too many people who consider flying to be the only skill they need in life. People who are happy to skip learning another trade because they see flying as their only career. This to the point that they are quite happy seeing themselves flipping burgers whilst waiting for a flying job. My advice: NEVER EVER want this career by thinking it will be your one and only. Because for a lot of people it never is. Make sure there is another trade which excites you and that can comfortably bring food home on to the table and help you repay your loans and mortgage/rent. This, before, during and after your flight training. Providing you do this, you will not have any sense of urgency or desparation. However, age is not on Mr Angry's side and this is something I'm sure he knew about before he started.

As much as one may love the idea of a flying career as a first and only career, it is getting increasingly obvious that those who do not have experience in another field or after training do not plan to go back to it for the indefinite future will struggle (with loans and life's expenses in general after training) and become impatient (often losing the will to live). Best of luck to both of you.

[timzsta]

I got my CPL/IR/MCC in 2004. After a year getting nowhere fast with 200 hours I decided in the autumn of 2005 to do a Flying Instructor course on a part time basis at the weekends. I thoroughly enjoyed the course, it was hard work lots of reading but a lot of fun although the weather did it's best to drag things out that winter!

Six months later I had my FI rating in my license and a month later I was parked up in my delivery van one Friday lunchtime having a snooze when the phone rang. It was the Ops Manager from the flying club I had been a member at for several years since I got my PPL. "Have you got your Instructor rating issued yet?" she asked. "Yes it arrived yesterday". "Do you want a job for three months working saturday's and sunday's?". "Too bloody right I do, when do you want me to start?". "9am tomorrow".

Well ten months later I am still there both days every weekend. Between May and December last year I added 120 hours to my log book flying at the weekends. I cant afford to be a full time instructor - I have a mortgage now but through Instructing I earn't enough money to keep my multi and IR current and have enough left over to do my Night Instructors qualification (nice way to add some IFR hours is teaching Night Rating). By the end of this weekend I will have flown nearly 50 hours already this year.

Instructing is good fun, it improves your flying skills and it gives great personal satisfaction seeing your students progress as a resulf of your own efforts and encouragement.

So if you could afford all that money to get the CPL/IR can you not somehow find another £5000 to do an FI course? Even if your hubby just works weekends instructing for a couple of years he will have moved his CV further up the pile.

And the reason Transeuro say you need 700hrs to work for them is that it is a regulation that to fly single pilot IFR you need 700hrs.

Now I know somebody who got a job with them because he built up his hours Instructing. Several of their pilots have gone on to get turboprop jobs. And I know someone who got a job on the A320 with a very respectable outfit because the had turboprop time.

So from small acorns etc.....

Good luck, chin up and as we say at my club "don't just sit there - get one up!"

[g1344304]

Superpilot,

If you dont mind me asking, what career did you start that paid you £45k? I will have a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering and hopefully that should be enough to fall back on if I fail to find a job after completing an fATPL. There are lots of graduate courses with banks etc that I know would accept me if I did not find that evasive first job. Then hopefully I could get an instrutors rating like timzsta

[Superpilot]

45k was not a starting salary, but one attained within 3-4 years (relatively quickly) at age 24.

[karam]

Angrywife:

Like most others in this forum, I can empathize with your partner. I too was jobless for a while after my flight training, however, the key is persistence. I got my break 2 months ago and then another one 3 weeks ago. I realize reading about other peoples break is a double edged sword. You're motivated by it but on the other hand you're wondering when and if it'll ever happen to you. THe fact is, airlines will hire you if you have legal requirements to serve as aircrew. More so now as there is a shortage of pilots. Ryanair is hiring like crazy so it's worth continuing to knock on their door. Hope it all works out for you.

K

[Angrywife]

Well I would really like to thank everyone for their support on this post, he has landed himself an interview at Ryan Air. I am extremely proud of him and hope all of his hard work finally pays off.:)
As for the comment above I think you are the only person who has hit so low below the belt on this forum. Im guessing you class yourself as a professional pilot?! I pity any pilot who flies with you and your immaturity!
That's if you even hold a license!!!:yuk:

[g1344304]

Well done to your husband angrywife, I hope he does well and you and your family can relax a little!

[Jam-Man]

Having read all of this thread, and some of the appallingly negative comments from some of the people allegedly 'professionals' within this industry I can only say I hope the Ryanair thing works. Even if he just does a couple of years there and then moves on he will get a lot of very 'sharp-end' experience in that time.

To those who have been so awful I can only assume no one supported you and no-one gave you a break, aaah. Maybe it was your personality that was spotted before your licence! If this forum is not here for our 'community' to assist each other then what is the purpose of it? Just for bitter pilots to publicly air their own little personality disorders to the world?

A lot of us have had major trauma at some time in this strange industry. Surely the civilised thing to do is to try to ensure those who follow us have an easier ride. If we don't make it so, then civilisation (or our industry) will never advance..

Lecture to the primitives over:) :ok: . If your partner has no luck with Ryanair, a top tip is to contact VLM. They are recruiting furiously and continually, are quite prepared to take low hours/ high hours/ young/ older pilots as it is the quality of person they are after, all else (apart from flying skill of course!) is secondary, they have a quality training dept to shape the rest!

Good luck.

[RoyHudd]

Good luck to your husband, AW, and if Ryanair doesn't work out, going back to airlines already contacted (with a 3-month pause in between) may yet pay off. The situation in any given company can change overnight.

And by the way, don't call yourself Angry, it doesn't help. My guess is you are not actually angry, just frustrated. Congratulations anyway on supporting your spouse. Wish my ex had been more like you in that respect.

And finally, I got going in my early 40's, and even with fATPL/IR managed to fail my first (sponsored) type-rating at the last hurdle,...OUCH... before eventually getting my first job in night freight at 44. Flew old bangers for a while, then got onto Airbusses. It can be done, but there are no guarantees. I have a feeling your old man will make it.;)

[jaimz1982]

Hi Angrywife,

I hadn't logged into pprune for ages and only did today and have just spent the last 45 mins reading all the previous posts.

I just wanted to add abit of support aswell and to try to reassure you it is not just the aviation industry that is hard to find a job in.

The example of this is myself, I went to school, college, then Uni and did pretty well. I then came out thinking finding a job would be no problem. Well no-one went near me, I eventually realised that you can be qualified to the hilt but if your not proactive then no-one will want you.

I got really depressed, but then made the choice to go back to Uni, get my Masters and try again, but this time, I decided to network like crazy. I did this and got my Masters, got a published dissertation, even went and met some of the most powerful guys in retail that sit on the board for Tesco. However could I find or get a job, NOPE!

I finished my masters in November 2005, I then applied for everything in sight, but nothing came my way. I tried to stay positive but I got really down again. I was facing a 25k debt to start paying off, and no job to do it with.

I then had abit of time out and started flying as my gf's Dad flys for BA. I loved it and subsequently realised I had potentially wasted the last 5 years of my life at Uni when I should have saved or started flying, or at least learning.

I then got a renewed sense of vigur, started applying for jobs related to my degrees and after about 10-15 interviews (some of which were 3 stages) I finally got a job, this was now September 2006.

I've now started my PPL, started to save and am just staying positive and putting eveything into flying. It may not pay off, but at least I had a go.

I guess what I'm trying to say, like most of the posts on here is, DO NOT GIVE UP, your husband will do it, he just needs to stay positive. Its hard but with patience and dedication it can pay off. I wish him and yourself the best of luck, hopefully one day he'll have his 4 stripes and ill at least have 2.

James

PS to help you out, I'm 25 and owe 25k through Uni, and with the flying training it will be nearer 90K, it's a risk, but you've only got 1 life.

Best of luck!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Gulp. £90k in unsecured debt, 25 and never had a proper job!


Interesting how times have changed. When I finished a university degree in 1996 I owed £4,000 and paid that off in the first year by getting a dull desk job vaguely related to my degree.

I then got a slightly better job, lived at home and saved like mad on £15k. I started the ATPL study course via distance learning to fill my evenings and weekends (what joy). After two years I had saved £14k. I borrowed another £8k off my parents and that was enough to get the a Frzn ATPL CPL and FI rating.

Another couple of years of instructing and saving and I had a Multi CPL/IR Frzn ATPL and 1000hrs TT and could just about pay back my parents.
And I used to worry about my debts and my low pay!

You just couldn't have got the levels of debt you are talking about back then. And we are talking the mid to late 90's and 2000...

At no time did I owe more than £10k and I was in continuous employment of one kind or another from the week after finishing Uni... Save, spend, Save, spend for 4 years... But never paid hardly a penny in interest.

If you can find a way of avoiding such punishing debt then its worth seriously considering. Even if it means taking a lot longer to get qualified.

Good luck,


WWW

[future captain]

Student debt isn't really much to worry about, what I mean is the student loan from the SLC. Debts from card companies is a different story, I have student accounts, but I have money in my account which will be enough to get me through uni, without touching the interest free overdraft the bank is willing to give me. This student loan is paid back only when your earning a min of 15k and then its at around 9£ a week, which is like one takeaway meal, no biggie. It doesn't show up on any checks any loan companies etc do, so when looking for a loan it wont affect you. You have 25 years to pay it back, anything outstanding is wiped off. You only pay it back when in employment and it is taken out automatically, so you wont get "threats" for repayments like the banks would send you.

I'm actually trying to use my uni as an advantage. I like my course its going good atm, enjoying the sport. The slc give 3k to my uni direct for uni fees, but I also get a maintenance loan, which i save and then I can use the total maintenance loan to help towards flight training. It will be around 20k, but it wont be such a burden as if i took 20k from a bank, they would be after me like a pack of sniffer dogs, with the 20k slc loan, you pay back at around a tenner a week and only when earning.

[SinBin]

Angry wife, I'm sure my wife sympathises with you. Take no notice of the negative crap like that on this website, 80% of the negative immature responses probably don't have a licence and therefore aren't in your husband's situation. I've just had my first real opportunity and I'm now waiting on the result of a good sim check with a major UK jet carrier. I wish him all the luck in the world with FR. Hope you can change your nom de Prune to Happywife.

[scroggs]

Even with my mortgage, and as a widebody (the aircraft, not me!) Captain earning near enough £100k, I don't have the level of debt you guys are beginning to see as 'the norm'. You need to step back from it a bit and start getting things into perspective. If it doesn't make sense as an investment decision, you shouldn't be doing it. It is so easy for debt to turn round and bite you, so be very careful what you take on - and have a 'Plan B' in case aviation doesn't work out, which it won't for a significant number of you.
Scroggs

[EGCC4284]

Angrywife

Please let us know how he gets on with Ryan.

[scruggs]

WWW,

Even going to Uni is a far more expensive adventure to pursue than it used to be. When I attended between 2002-2005, I lived at home to save cash, and I also worked 15 hours at the weekends for my beer money.

I took out the 3K (1K for fees and 2K for more beer) a year loan, so over the 3 years ended up with 9K. I know of no-one else in my class who came anywhere near the relatively low amount I borrowed. Sadly some of my friends are now up to their eye-balls in both Uni and Credit/Debit card debt.

Times have certainly changed indeed :uhoh:


Let us know how things turn out Angrywife.


S

[jaimz1982]

Just a quickie,

Future Captain, trust me it isn't that simple, when you've got living costs, food, petrol, insurance, tax, etc etc, that loss adds up.

As for the £9 a week figure, that probably for someone earning 16K. I lose over £120 to the SLC and 250/Month to pay my Masters off. Thats around 4500 lost each year. And trust me, that is a significant figure.

Just remember it may not sound like much but its 9% of your salary over 15k, and if you start advancing quickly and getting good payrises, then that student loan does start making a dent into your salary.

It's a pain, but hopefully not forever

Jim

[Along4Ride]

I too see my pilot husband using pprune regularly and I never post messages. I was inspired by your original post to register today so i could reply to you. I too am in the situation you describe, I have a qualified husband, large debt and have moved around country & county for last 5 yrs following one progressive job after another...have a little baby...

What i would like to say to you is that for all the high costs and vagrant lifestyle..dont completely forget the things that make it so worthwhile. Things like..your kids being able to tell their friends MY dads a pilot! (which he is regardless of employment)...forcing you to move outside your comfort zone, moving town, making new friends all the time..and usually other pilots and their families...the massive excitements when your husband gets a shot at that next opportunity..and knowing that he's going to come home that day and tell you first as his #1 supporter...and other times being the one who gets to offer undying loyalty to him when well-meaning family and friends loudly question the value of continuing when things dont work out. I think I know how you're feeling right now as my husband is in the middle of a ground course and hopes to do well enough to get a job out of it. I really hope that your husbands interview goes really well - fingers crossed 4 you.

[future captain]

jaimz1982

Guess what your saying is real life. Your experiencing it, Im still doing my degree so wouldn't know to much. I see you to are going down the route of commercial pilot, good luck wit it, and all the best :ok: As you say, you only live once, I have seen first hand someone close to me pass away in something he hated, he was just about to move on to do what he always wanted, he didn't get the chance. I am fully aware of how fragile this industry is but unless you don't try, you don't find out.