The Met's EC145s are about to go Operational!

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Good new for all those Ppruners out there that have been waiting with anticipation for the Met's new EC145 airframes to go operational. The wait is nearly over!!!!

I understand that a small number of the Met's eight pilots have recently completed their type rating on the EC145 type whilst at Eurocopter, Germany. The very same pilots are now currently completing a familiarisation course with MacAlpine Helicopters, Oxfordshire with the remaining pilots to complete the necessary training in due course.

The police observers will also be undertaking further training on the updated and more advanced equipment that has been installed within the the EC145 airframe on their arrival to the Lippits.

I believe the first aircraft is due to arrive and to go operational at Lippits Hill within the next few weeks (date to be confirmed) and the second and third helicopters to arrive over the coming year.

The intention is to type rate all the Met pilots on the new aircraft as quickly as possible prior and to the arrival of the remaining two new aircraft so the Met can dispense with the existing 3 X AS355N as not to finance and keep the pilots rated on two types of aircraft at the same time.

As a result of with the arrival of the new helicopters shortly, for the first time in many years the Metropolitan Police Service/Authority have injected a large funding of cash into the ASU in order to take modern police aviation in to the next decade.

New Hanger doors have, or are about to be installed to cater for the EC145 and a heli-strip is due, again if not already completed, to be constructed within a "stone's throw" of the current T/O & Ldg area.
Not sure at the present time whether the CAT "A" T/O and Ldg will be continued?

I for one have been looking forward to seeing and hearing the new aircraft operating above London and the southeast. The Met police are taking police aviation forward into unknown areas (policing operations) and breaking new bounderies. Never before as this type of aircraft been seen operating over the United Kingdom on a military, civilian or police capability before and only anticipate that other police services with the financing will follow in due course to aquire this type of aircraft for policing.

I am a fairly new contributer to Pprune, but have been a persistant reader for the last few years. My objective to Pprune is to convey a factual account of correct information and don't believe in pure assumption or lies. Therefore, If anyone believes that any of the above information is incorrect, fellow Ppruners please feel free to correct me to the above in order that all Ppruners have been conveyed the correct information. :ok:

[PANews]

Cap'n Cop

I believe you are generally correct in everything except the timing of the feast.

Unless the Met have changed their plans of just two months ago the suggestion that the 145 being operational is imminent [as in by March] I would dispute.

True they have been training on the 145s for some weeks now but, unlike more recent previous aircraft introductions, this is not intended to be an immediate changeover of types. More likely to reflect what they did in changing from the 222 to the 355 [well maybe not so long!] as there is a lot of technology to take on-board. I expect they will again be a 6 aircraft unit for a fair period in the coming year.

Runway? Yes, but again the timescale is 'Not yet' - they have yet to get planning permission on that. As far as I am aware the plans are not yet in so the horses can still rest in their field. Might make the golf at West Essex a bit more exciting with a giant fan whizzing over the flight path of the little balls!

[Brilliant Stuff]

I believe all pilots are now rated but I can not remember what the nice observer was telling us. Though I can confirm the hangar doors being replaced. The runway was still in the planning stage.

[Darren999]

Does the Met having any flying positions at this moment?
Just a thought....:)

[SilsoeSid]

I for one shall be looking forward to the reaction from anyone in London who might want to cry "Police State" when a few doors get kicked in.

Especially as Capt.Cop says "The Met police are taking police aviation forward into unknown areas (policing operations) and breaking new bounderies."

Let them cry what they like when this lot come a knocking!!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/newspapers/sunday_times/britain/article1295061.ece

Not just a film anymore!

http://images.bol.de/images-adb/bf/6b/bf6b7a40-4249-4f77-b907-b5a25d4f908a.jpg
http://www.eurocopter.ca/gallery/images/EC145_09.jpg

"Good Morning Sir!!!"

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/sas/99.jpg

Would you mind accompanying us to the 'interview room'?

Pardon Sir, you'd like to speak to your soya?
Moira? Isn't she a newsreader?
Toyah? It's a mystery, sir, I just can't understand what you are requesting.
You won't talk until you see your employer!
I'm sorry Sir, I understand now, however unfortunately Kate Lawler won't be available until after the Breakfast Show. :ok:

[Colonal Mustard]

"Let them cry what they like when this lot come a knocking!!!!
They`ve been here in london for a number of years now, since the mid 90`s, lets just say north of the river but close to an east london area with a long piece of concrete...":suspect: oops censored"

[Thud_and_Blunder]

seeing and hearing the new aircraft operating above London and the southeast
Well, if the Exeter BK117 is anything to go by, you'll certainly be hearing them. By far the noisiest emergency services heli I've heard in UK service. Was walking the dog on Dartmoor t'other day when I first picked up the sound of that tail-rotor. Four minutes later the aircraft flew past (half a mile south) at max chat. Not sure what speed they cruise, but something that can be heard 7+ miles away ain't going to be music to Red Ken's sensitive lugholes.

Enjoy the new kit, hope the performance is up to the jobs you have in mind.

[PANews]

The EC145/BK117C2 has turned out considerably quieter than the earlier BK's.

Not sure how they did it, a clever tweak of old technology it seems.

All those years [and mi££ions] going down the road of high pitched screams from fenestron's and hiding the fan inside the fuselage to get a measure of quietness and the old technology seems to have largely overcome the problem and ended up almost as quiet as the new technologies.

Still chop your head off if you get too close though! Good job its nice and high on the 145 - and unlikely to be so quiet as you will not notice it!

[bell222]

one of the met 145's has been seen today over south london at quite low level does anyone know if they are online yet or could this be more tests?

[AlanM]

They have been flying for a few weeks now - vectored one around the Biggin ILS in the last week.

Asked the crew yesterday on the RT and they said they are still being operated "privately" so they cannot be used for Police work, just trg and no freeloading ATCOs until they are declared fit for service.

[PANews]

They have been operating more often out of Lippitts Hill more regularly of late which either suggests that they have recently moved operations from pure pilot training [mainly based out of Oxford] or just that the sun is shining and they are more visible from here!

A mile south of the 'office'

[Lord Mount]

One flew into Hendon today whilst I was on a course.
Much quieter than the twin Squirrels.

Looking good lads!

[treadigraph]

Much quieter than the twin Squirrels.

That I am very glad to, er, not hear! :ok:

[bell222]

are all three fully kitted out yet or will one be done at a time?

[jackjack08]

Have the met got external hoist capability on the 145 ? if so, anyone know where the observers did their hoist ops training ?

[CAPTAIN COP!]

From my understanding the Met Police took possession of one EC145
recently from McAlpine Helicopters recently where it is now based at Lippitts Hill undergoing familiarisation by both pilots and observers.
Not sure when it goes operational, though?

As for the second and third airframes they will be delivered in due course!

All three aircraft (MPSA, MPSB & MPSC) are still currently shown on the
CAA database under McAlpines registered name.

I'm sure this will change in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled!

[ppheli]

Think you may be right, they could have full possession of one EC145 now - although that doesn't mean they've made it operational yet.

My evidence? Well, you pointed out that they are still registered to McAlpine, but you didn't note that MPSB was this week marked up as "Potential change of Registered Ownership in progress" by the CAA, and this is the one that will be delivered first. MPSA is the "trials horse" and will be delivered last.

So, what of the high-time 355Ns? Any truth in the report that they will acquire VON# registrations...?

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Thanks for updating and clarifying the thread with regards to the
anticipated official handover of G-MPSB from McAlpine Helicopters to the Met Police.

Your absolutely correct with regards to the CAA database. It does state that airframe G-MPSB is currently going through the "Potential change of registered ownership in progress." The last time I viewed the CAA website I didn't recall seeing the updated entry.

With regards the future of the current 3 x AS355's and the possibilty of
being purchased by the Von Essen Group - that I do not know.

Mind you, with the recent press release that the Von Essen Group has purchased McAlpine Helicopters for £20 million, I suppose anything is possible.

Captain Cop!

[malaprop]

Wow! Macs as well as Premiair! They're really splashing out....

[What Limits]

To set the record straight,

Von Essen own hotels
They bought a hotel with a big heliport at Battersea
They bought PremiAir which does pilotage and engineering from Denham and Blackbushe.

They did not buy McAlpine Helicopters Ltd, which is the engineering company based at Oxford.

Now for the big rumour
McAlpines will be sold to Eurocopter!

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Two days running now I've supplied incorrect information - apologises to all Ppruners!!!

With regards to the last entry I made where I stated the Von Essen Group had purchased McAlpines this is infact wrong as clarified by Whats Limits.

In your last entry you stated "now for the big rumour" regarding a possibility of a take over of McAlpine Helicopters by Eurocopter.
I was always led to believe that McAlpine Helicopters was already owned and is a subsidary of Eurocopter anyway. Is this not the case then?

Captain Cop!

[PANews]

McAlpine is part owned by Eurocopter.

A handful of years ago the percentage was a mere 10% but that may have moved forward. I believe this rumour about an impending sale of the other 90% is not misplaced but I would not want to put a date on it in 2007 any more than I did in 2000 [when a similar rumour was circulating].

The owner, the McAlpine family, will of course wish to do the job eventually - just as they have with that former section of the group, Premiair formerly OSS formerly McAlpine.....

Still at least severing Premiair from the McAlpine family will at least undermine the claim they were one and the same and not two seperate commercial entities! Or will it! :rolleyes:

[bell222]

does anyone have any pictures yet of the new machines the only one i have seen is on police aviation news sometime ago

[CAPTAIN COP!]

I've managed to locate a recent edition of the Metropolitan Police
Service internal newspaper called "The Job. There is an article within
dedicated to the new aircraft and the future of the Met ASU.
I've also found a photograph from the McAlpine Helicopters website:

1) www.scotlandyard.police.uk/job/job977/the_job_issue_7_book.pdf.mac- (http://www.scotlandyard.police.uk/job/job977/the_job_issue_7_book.pdf.mac-)

2) http://www.mac-helicopters.co.uk/news.htm

Enjoy,

Captain Cop!

[CAPTAIN COP!]

There appears to be a fault with the Metropolitan Police Service internal newspaper website link.

If you want to view the "The Job" article type Met Police EC145 into the relevant search engine. Once established, scan through the various pages until you locate the site stating:

01 Final Cover V2 indd
www.scotlandyard.police.uk/job977/the (http://www.scotlandyard.police.uk/job977/the) job issue 7 book pdf.

Hopefully you'll have more success this way?

Capatin Cop! :D

[quichemech]

That Reg on the stab looks a bit on the small side:rolleyes:

[bell222]

also there is no met police coat of arms on display

[Bravo73]

CAPTAIN COP!

This link (http://www.scotlandyard.police.uk/job/job977/the_job_issue_7_book.pdf) should point you straight to the pdf that you are looking for.


HTH,

B73

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Many thanks for your assistance regarding the above.

You obiviously know more about computer than I.

Once again, thank you!

Captain Cop! :ok:

[bell222]

i know this will not happen but would it not have been a good idea to keep one of the 355's purely as a back up aircraft just in case the 145 fleet was grounded for any reason this would ensure some type of air cover
bearing in mind what happened last year when the fleet was grounded due to gearbox probs

[PANews]

The cost of such a contingency would probably be far too high.
First you would need to keep ALL the pilots current on the 355 as a type, then you would need a second line of spares maintained [notwithstanding that some will already be in the hangar], maintain a disimilar type, and bring the single tired airframe up to somewhere near the same standard operationally as its cohorts - buying a new Wescam 15 for a start [the new aircraft are using the 355 Wescams].
If - heaven forbid - this were to be the case I suspect that once the chapter on 355 is closed it would be cheaper to wet lease in 355's [or anything] and just go fly with the local police observers to cover the gap. When the 355Ns were down they were 'replaced' by a leased in AS355F2 G-CAMB while things were sorted.
The Met is perhaps more important than some other units because of their location but such a move was reflected recently in Cheshire. They had their BN2 offline for a Wescam fit and they brought in an AS355F2 to cover the gap period. As a result their fixed wing pilot was temporarily sidelined and another brought in. Not ideal but it did resolve a perceived problem and gave the observers a fully operational mount [spare BN2s with sensor fits being rare].

[AlanM]

Did I really see G-MPSA into Lippits today....??

....then Police 253 doing a 10km orbit of Hendon at 1500ft!

Interesting testing for the beast!!!!

(Go on then chaps... What was that about!???) :bored: :)

[bell222]

why is the camera grey and not colour coded unlike other new 902's and 135's

[Brilliant Stuff]

They mentioned they had to do some operational flight testing by a line pilot and crew for the CAA.

[MINself]

bell222, that could just be the colour that the manufacturer made them in, I have seen similar Wescam turrets in use in the UK (if thats the manufacturer?) battleship grey. They might even get the turrets resprayed to match the aircraft if that doesn't interfere with their internal electrickery :8

[jayteeto]

Spare aircraft are becoming rare. We are not taking a squirrel to cover the next servicing period. Money is tight, keeping 4 pilots current is expensive and rental costs are high. To be honest, no names, but our last couple of rentals were a battle of failing role equipment. We eventually stopped using it and just used binoculars.

[PANews]

The Wescam turrets on the 145s are currently grey because that is the colour they have whilst on their more usual locations under the nose of the white Met AS355Ns. They are not new units - they were acquired last year for the Ns.

I would expect them the change colour [if ever] after the dust of the handover in types settles.

[chopper2004]

http://photo.ringo.com/195/195957475O779756149.jpg

Saw and took picture of the new Suffolk County (NY) Police, EC-145 fit to role by Metro Aviation, at Heli Expo a few weeks ago. Very nice

[chopperdr]

both the stepmounts shown on display of the suffolk ec-145 at HAI were made by our company, meeker aviation
if you would like more info, pm me
dr

[bell222]

just out of interest what will the met be asking for their squirrels ? Will they be sold seperate or together and if they are together will there be a lower asking price

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Regarding your multiple questions, I myself have no idea?

However, there is an update on the "Police Aviation News" website with regards to the new EC145's and their current progress to possible operational service.

Captain Cop!

[bell222]

i have already seen pan this month thanks for your reply

[Coconutty]

Complete with camera shy engineer :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/G-MPSB.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[bell222]

does anybody know who will be policing from the air at the epsom derby this year surrey or the met thanks :ok::ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

It's Surrey, flown by the lightest Police pilot in the U.K. :E

[What Limits]

Is that to compensate for the two heaviest Police observers?

[helimutt]

You know how it must be. Police+Donuts=not much endurance!!!

[SilsoeSid]

Coconutty,

You sure that's an EC145 from Eurocopter? ;)

I hope that was on the paint scheme drawings, otherwise it might be considered as 'Damage to Police property' :=

Funny place for a fuel filler cap...on the door!

[bell222]

are the 145's on line yet ?

[sss]

are the 145's on line yet ?

i think they came on line this afternoon

[Rigga]

Yes! They did.

[AlanM]

Do they have headests that are more suppresive than the last ones??!?!?!!?

Yours

"Say Again.."

132.7/125.625

[aeromys]

It's Surrey, flown by the lightest Police pilot in the U.K.

And also the first female UK Police Pilot on the mainland :ok:

(Yes I know there is one in NI)

[FloaterNorthWest]

Brilliant Stuff,

I know some very light MALE Police pilots, so we need weights before the title can be awarded.

Is this a different female pilot or has the one in NI moved (don't hear her much over here lately)?

FNW

[aeromys]

This a new one, from a Corporate background on the rigs oop Norf.

[oldgit]

What is a corporate background on the rigs?!

[PANews]

Not wishing to downgrade the lady any, but she is 'probably' the first 'directly employed' police helicopter pilot in the UK mainland.....unless you know better!

A bit thin as a first I am afraid!

For the record the lady in NI '[mentioned above] did not think her position was worthy of a round of applause so there was no special announcement made by her then employers.

It seems that the first lady police helicopter pilot was probably Gaye Absolem who flew for the Met in 1974 on the Air Gregory contract. I squeaked when HAI recently declared another to that 'honour' for the 2007 awards and they reluctantly changed it to 'In the USA' .... not that I am sure that Gaye could care less!

Firsts is always a tricky area, the first World and UK police aviation helicopter use just came up and was celebrated [60 years] but as in its day the Cierva Autogiro was called a 'helicopter' it is tricky ground... but as the pilot was Alan Bristow :D perhaps one worth marking.

Where will the firsts stop... first bisexual pilot next?:)

[Brilliant Stuff]

Trust me if any males are lighter they must have been a Jockey in their former life.

:sad::sad::sad::sad::{:{:{:{:{:{

[Helinut]

PA,

At present the Surrey pilotage is still provided by Premiair, so I am not sure about the "direct employed" bit.

[Technbeer]

Anyone know if the CAA have signed the 145s off on the operating certificate?

[AlanM]

I think you will find thta they have been signed off - well, they have been on task over london Cat B at 800ft this weekend!

[bell222]

are all three operational ?

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Just to let you know for your interest, Surrey Police now have a small number of civilian ASU observers onboard and I'm not sure whether the donuts still apply?

From my understanding Surrey Police are one of the first police services
in the UK to employ civilians as observers.

Whether it's a good or bad idea, I'm not sure it's the start of a new trend to spread across the country?

Captain Cop!:=

[ShyTorque]

Over London tonight, buzzing round like frantic, oversized bumble bees!

[JimBall]

Great. Just as all operators are paying attention to noise, last night the front door rattled as 2 of these sheds went down H4. Or one of them went twice.

So - now we'll all have to suffer the consequences of the Met using helicopters that can't fly at a height which would reduce the noise. I remember Eurocopter saying that 3000ft was the optimum for noisy helicopters.

Will we sleep safer in our beds ? Er - no. Even with earplugs.

I heard the Surrey ASU on freq over Epsom at the weekend telling all and sundry that they were going into a position before the main race and "would be following the horses". For what reason do they need to create such a disturbance ? You couldn't hear the filming 44 that was up over the course - but the 135 joined in and suddenly we all knew there was a helicopter there.

[Thomas coupling]

And your point is???

[malaprop]

That everyone should use an ENG R44?...:hmm:

[MightyGem]

From my understanding Surrey Police are one of the first police services
in the UK to employ civilians as observers.


Depends how you class "one of the first". Hampshire have had them for years on their Islander(although I believe they are going back to PCs) and Suffolk have been using them for nearly ten years, I think.

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Sorry if I offended you!

The information I submitted came straight from the Surrey Police
internal newspaper called "OFF BEAT!"

Like most of the police services within the UK they all like to think they're
pioneering and innovative with ideas and trends.

Captain Cop!

[AlanM]

Saw a yellow and black AS355 yesterday on task - I thougt that the 145s were now in use....

confused...!

[Max_Chat]

Capt Cop

Suffolk have had civvies for at least 5 years as far as I know.

I don't see a problem with having all civilian observers. They would be just as good at the job I am sure, and the "they can't deal with the public" argument is a no brainer, make them PCSO's and there you have it, job done, and for a saving of about £5k per observer plus the savings on police training and more bobbies on the streets.

Wonder if I will be in trouble now?

[CAPTAIN COP!]

To some degree, I agree with you with regards to civilian observers carrying out exactly the same role as a police officer observer.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing?

However, it does concern a number of people within the police service
(response officers) regarding appointed civilian observers with the lack of ground/foot experience and have a minimal amount police legislation theoretical knowledge that is paramount in order to assist your police collegues fully on the ground.

It's simply a "grey area" and I'm sure it will continue to bring much interest
"for and against?"

As for the PCSO remarks, you're on your own mate!

Captain Cop!

[PANews]

WARNING!! THIS IS FIRMLY TONGUE IN CHEEK!!!:uhoh:

So I guess - based on seeing them in action on the ground - that a police force seeking to employ PCSO's as air support observers is obliged to fit additional seats in the aircraft.

To date I have rarely seen 'silver tops' wandering around in groups of less than two - usually 3 - at a time.

I suppose if they are very small there may be room in the [excess] baggage compartment.:rolleyes:

[Max_Chat]

PANews.

Your are a very naughty chap!!

[maxdrypower]

Hmmmmm PCSO"s (professional pedestrians) aside . Non Police observers are an idea (cant say Civvie cos police are civvies) If they are recruited having been police observers prior to retirement or for example ex loadies then it might not be a bad idea . The idea of putting someone without policing experience into a police role is never a good one . Whereas observing is not strictly policing , a lotof what they get involved in is. Legislation etc can be taught to anyone , however what cannot be taught is the police way of thinking (if we could please keep this on thread not degenerate into a police slagging thread) If I am an officer engaged in a pursuit and utilising something like TPAC .I want the guy overhead to have experience of doing just that on the ground , I cannot ask the aircraft to find me a suitable spot to deploy stinger or a feeder vehicle if the observer in question has never done this ,and does not understand the dynamics of a pursuit or what the officers on the ground are expecting . A lot of police work especially things like pursuits is based on every one concerned knowing their part. I cannot believe , but I stand to be corrected that someone who has never been involved in a long distance pursuit can effectively grasp the concepts of what is required . This can be shown by questions from our pilots . Whilst I think they are second to none and have experience I could only dream of . They will often ask things that are just impractical, illegal , unprocedural or even dangerous , not through ignorance or stupidity just through never having experienced this from the police officers pointof view .
Now please dont have a go at me , Police pilots are exceptional I am just making the point that it is hard for someone to make important and valid decisions based on no experience of having actually done it . Hampshire I do belive found this out and this is the reason they no longer have non police officers as observers . My own force has thought about it but dismissed it as impractical unless they could recruit ex observers direct.
Not a bad job to retire into though I would have thought

[Max_Chat]

QUOTE

"Whereas observing is not strictly policing , a lot of what they get involved in is. Legislation etc can be taught to anyone , however what cannot be taught is the police way of thinking (if we could please keep this on thread not degenerate into a police slagging thread)"

Just when I thought we could have some fun !

[maxdrypower]

Oh to hell with it , I cant stand the job go for it

[What Limits]

Police pilots are exceptional

Anyone who is paying the wages reading this?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I agree the Police observer should be a serving Police Officer because they know inside out what the guys on the ground need. After all is that not why they employ pilots who are professionals in their field not just a gentleman of the street whom they give a pilotslicence.

I apologise for offending any civilian observers. I am only going by what I have learned by watching my bobbies.

[Regain]

Hey, what about civvy Typhoon pilots? Might save money. Sorry, forgot about the missiles. Civvy Lynx pilots then. Sod it, just civilianise the whole lot. Police, army, everything. Loads cheaper. Until they realise their worth and the unions get hold of it that is.

[ATCO17]

I have the privelage (or sometimes the problem) of providing an Air Traffic service to the Police helis in and around the Heathrow CTZ. I have always found them to be flexible, (when possible, due to the nature of the task) professional and extremely grateful. Many are ex military pilots. They are under pressure from the units on the ground, the Air Traffic Control unit they are working, and, most of all, the guys down the back. As AlanM knows, they are always more then willing, when able, to offer those interested and affected by their operations, a trip around their ops room and a chat with the crews. Give them a call...you never know where it could lead!:D

[Lord Mount]

(Standing with feet shoulder width apart bracing for a slagging off from certain quarters.)

I am a current serving Metropolitan police officer.

The ASU are worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concerned. They have allowed me to more efficiently serve the residents of and visitors to the nation's capital. They have protected my life on more than one occasion.

When I utilise the unit I want to know that the person assisting me has been where I am, has done the job I am doing and has a bloody good idea of what I'm thinking and what I am trying to achieve.

That person has, in my opinion, got to be a serving or recently retired police officer.

I am also a PPL(H).

The pilot has to be, to some extent, detatched from what is happening on the ground. His priority has got to be the safe operation of the aircraft, not only for the people within but also the people below and fellow airspace users. I don't know if a serving or recently retired police officer could confidently maintain that level of detatchment and not get focussed in on the events unfolding beneath.

IMHO the ballance is right.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


LM

[ATCO17]

Well said, your Lordship! However, who would've thought, 20 years ago that the majority of ground trades in the RAF would now be filled by civillians, albeit, many of them ex RAF. I fear we are on a slippery slope leading towards a lack of experience and common sense in this day of PC, HR and EO. It is up to us, those who have been there, seen it and done it, to pass on our experiences and wisdom to those who wish to fill our shoes.....and they ain't always that big! Maybe there is a place for Community Support Officers, or whatever they are called, but when I wander into town and see them strolling along, hands in pockets, shirts hanging out and generally looking like a sack of sh!t, it seriously annoys me. Like us in the forces, the taxpayer (and that's them and us included), pays the wages. I would expect to see a bit more for my money!

[Max_Chat]

I am not sure that a history of plodding around the beat makes a candidate for Air Observer any better than someone that has a history of e.g. taxi driving.

The ability to think outside the box, be flexible, have a will-co attitude, have mental dexterity, etc, etc is more important. I would rather see a highly trained Police Officer doing his job on the street for a full shift rather than sitting around for more than half it waiting for the phone to ring in the office.

Just a point of view.

[PANews]

Having a history of 'plodding around the beat' is just part of the plot. It is no more than an indication that the candidate might be suitable for Air Observer. The ability to 'think outside the box, be flexible, have a will-co attitude, have mental dexterity, etc, etc' is all part of a wider testing process that varies a little from unit to unit but ultimately cost each of them a lot of money.

In the end the judgement has [thankfully] to be made by those already on the unit. If ever it was decided that selection was to be made outside the unit [and all things are possible] that would be a disaster even beyond the magnitute of requiring a unit [or a police force] to have a certain 'mix' of bodies regardless of ultimate capability.

ATCO's comment about his take on the average PCSO may well be based on quite a few sightings but it is probably [hopefully!] not too typical. The point though is that they are a money saving measure dreamed up by those above the 'street' ranks to suit the whims of politicians. Getting two for the price of one does not work when they are always seen in groups of two or three and not doing what 'real' coppers do. Look/observe on a 24/7 basis.

Talking to their companion is one thing but looking deeply into their eyes is not quite the same as scanning their surroundings... the rooftops... the passing cars... the ever darting enquiring eyes that always seem to betray coppers in disguise to the criminal classes!

Such behavior is trained in over years and does not simply dissolve with the pension. That is a reason why off-street plodders need two years in before they will even be considered.

Disregarding pre-trained military etc candidates, bringing an ordinary civvie into air observing would necessarily involve additional training or at best a slow aclimatisation into an observer culture.... just the Achilles Heel now being witnessed with the cheap PCSO's on our streets.

[Max_Chat]

PANews, you make your case well and truly. I shall retire to my box, get in and close the lid. :ok:

[maxdrypower]

Yeh , have to agree with just about everything Pan says there and my colleague in arms his lordship the mount . Max Chat does have a very good point regarding units sitting around waiting for a call . This does indeed happen and on occasion you can sit around for ten hours and not fly . But you cannot have it any other way really its a fine balance that is probably addressed as well as it can be. ASU's are normally small units , although Im sure the mets is significantly larger than my own which has only four observers. Yes they are four officers who could be out on the streets but again thats the line thats drawn .To have an effective asu you have to have it almost as a QRA there is not other way you can do it , unless it is purely re-active, ie GMP's Islander , note they do have a pro-active helo also . The point regarding plodding on the beat making one an ideal candidate , I would suggest is quite a good qualification . You are out on foot 8-10 hrs dealing with jobs ,withtout the aid of a fully equipped vehicle , it is up to you to deal with whatever you come across , you have to be resilient to put up with what at times is pure tedium resourseful and you cannot do it without a will-co attitude , at times its soul destroying, but at least you are out there . Not wishing to start a CSO slagging , I have never come across a more usless bunch of people in my life (I wont justify it I dont have the room and this is not a cso thread), senior police officers aside.
Come the revolution

[Regain]

I shouldn't imagine that taking sworn officers out of the ASU will put them back on the streets - or anywhere else for that matter. This would be a cost-cutting measure remember.

And, ahem, it's..........wilco. Sorry for that.

[Daft bat]

The title of Community Support officer is as the title suggests there to support the community. When they are up in the air away from the public/community are they doing what they were employed for ? or being used in other Police roles to bring cheap Policing in the back door.:suspect:
CSO's do a good job in dealing with anti social behavior and local community problems,let them carry on doing what they we employed for and not used as political pawns.
As for Civilian observers they probably can do some task as good as a Police officer, but as an officer time served on the ground and pursuit tac adviser, I believe I am in the better position to direct and advise a safe conclusion of a vehicle follow.

[maxdrypower]

Like make the brews , yeh they could do that as well as a copper Im sure , although with our present batch , a short course may be needed

[Max_Chat]

Like make the brews , yeh they could do that as well as a copper Im sure , although with our present batch , a short course may be needed


I concur. There are good Kettle operators courses on the WWW, don't know if they are CAA approved, but observers are passengers anyway so I guess it does not matter.

[maxdrypower]

It would be a typical constabulary course one week crammed into four

[Max_Chat]

Perhaps this should be a new thread altogether.

"Air Observers Who Know Where The Kettle Is (and how to use it)".

:ok: := :O mixed emotions about this one.

[maxdrypower]

We normally let the seat to stick interface make the brews .On a serious note
I dont have one to hand but the paom lays down the criteria for CAA agreed pax who can fly with police air support units.Im sure it states that Police staff , which is what PCSO's are , can only fly if it is a flight in line with their police role , or words to that effect .I cannot think of a single reason a professional pedestrian would need to fly in an asu aircraft . This would also apply to non police officers recruited to be air observers . Now I suppose we could recruit persons to be observers who are not officers and give them one assigned role as an observer but this may be stretching the interpretation a bit too far . Now im sure they ill never put these cso in the aircraft ours is used precious little enough but if bobbies knew it was crewed by csos it would become redundant overnight and lose what little respect it has . But as senior officers certainly within my force are ridiculous to say the least nothing would surprise me

[Max_Chat]

Reliable, efficient and flexible. That's what you need, and sounds like you've got it.:D

[CAPTAIN COP!]

I've been informed today by a very reliable source that all three of the Met's new EC145s are now based at Lippits and are fully operational.

As for the existing 3 x AS355N they're now out of service and awaiting their fate?

Captain Cop! :rolleyes:

[bell222]

Thanks for that captain cop,The end of an era but the start of another :ok::ok::ok:

[ppheli]

CapnCop... One 355N is more "out of service" than the others and will require more-than-normal number of parts to encourage it skyward once more.

Of interest from the CAA's G-INFO website and working on approx 1000 hrs pa average per airframe

G-SEPA TT11280 at 31/12/2004 (so approx 13700 now?)
G-SEPB TT11380 at 31/12/2006 (11800 now?)
G-SEPC TT 9124 at 31/12/2004 (11500 now?)

So, very approx figures, these three have about 37,000 hours between them. I can just see the advert now "Genuine one owner from new......"

[headsethair]

One in action here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdICwhYMEzo) over Covent Garden.

[bell222]

very nice indeed, i suppose it is only a matter of time before the met have on official all singing and dancing handover ceremony with bells and whistles.

[sss]

very nice indeed, i suppose it is only a matter of time before the met have on official all singing and dancing handover ceremony with bells and whistles

July is the word on the street


but where are the 355's going to be sold, Ebay?

[Helinut]

The competition seems surprisingly good for such mature airframes - I know of 3 outfits who think they will buy them.

A little phrase Caveat Emptor springs to mind!

[CAPTAIN COP!]

It's now official!

Well, it's now official. The Met Police and their ASU have now officially been launched to the public and are now fully operational (although operational for the past 4 weeks) as shown on the BBC London News this eveing at 6:30pm.

As for the villians out there - let the fun begin, their days are
numbered! :=

Captain Cop!

[bell222]

thanks captain cop :ok::ok:

[tourismkelly]

Apologies if there is a fairly obvious answer to my question, but why have the MET gone for the 145 - size, speed, range, economics? Looking at units across the UK, the 135 seems the machine of choice on offer from EC - I'm just wondering why the MET have gone for the larger offering. Other ASUs across the UK seem happy to take new 135s (West Mids, East Mids, South Wales - I think).

Do you think the 145 will now be the machinery of choice for units looking to replace their current equipment - North Wales for example? I would have thought the larger 145 is ideal for units that offer a HEMS service in conjunction with the police role.

Anyway, thank you all for your time.
Kelly.

[tightrope]

so seeing as though a large part of the justification for the extra money being spent was the winching capabilites of the 145....

when do we get to see it..??

Have they (observers) done the training yet.. and how does that fit with the PAOM..?

[Thomas coupling]

When police a/c come round for replacement, the "management" have to decide what their strategy is for the next (say) 10+ yrs. It seems the Met's strategy requires a white van;)

Winching isn't allowed unless you can demonstrate a SSE capability in the hover during training. That is why the 135 nor the 145 can winch in the police world.
That is why there is no reference to winching in the PAOM II.

Ironically - if the a/c came already fitted with a winch, you can winch: "in anger" to save life, but that would be the first and last time you did it:ugh:

EUOps 3.005(h) App 1, refers.

[tightrope]

hmmmm money well spent then.. :}

ahh well at least the new a/c are quieter than the old ones..
errm arent they.? :E

[Aerodynamik]

'so seeing as though a large part of the justification for the extra money being spent was the winching capabilites of the 145....'
No it wasn't. The unit has one winch for a proof of concept....towering inferno type scenario where it is a matter of life and death. They have no wish to do the role of the SAR boys. They have more than enough work doing 'real' police work!

[PANews]

On Thursday, the day after the official launch the local paper was reporting not the triumph of the new machine but that the neighbours were again up in arms. The beast is noisier than the 355N'. No surprise there then for a craft far larger. The article went on to say that the unit were acknowledging a decibel or two higher noise level.

The neighbours have been whinging for years. First they waited til all the main employers in the area - the local arms manufacturers [RSAF, Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield and RO Royal Ordnance, Waltham] had shut up shop and fallen silent [ceasing almost daily doses of rattles of gunfire, rocket engines and explosions] and sacked everyone then started on the only guns still going off. The MP firearms branch at Lippitts Hill.

They finally drove the guns away from Lippitts [12 miles from London and a good road access] to Kent [25 not so good miles from London].

There are other reasons for the buy of course but now it seems that the Met have had to buy a helicopter big enough to take a reasonable number of firearms officers from Kent to Central London.....

Personally I think they are reaping their own harvest. :)

[jayteeto]

In answer to the question: Is the 145 the heli of choice for all ASUs? No it isn't!! Spoke to Manchester chap this week and they are getting a new 902. They are VERY happy with the MD service and informed us that a lot of the so called 'problems' were overstated. We like our 135, its fenestron and servicability. Personally, I will vote to buy another one (like my vote would matter). A lot of units have just got new aircraft in the 135/902 mould. Unless the home office demand a bigger airframe, I can't see much change in the next 10 years.

[Thomas coupling]

The H.O. don't demand anything from air ops. They 'suggest' and it's not really a heavy suggestion either! ACPO make the big decisions. It is these guys when they get together who decide what to go for next.
Except for one thing: they don't know what they want next (Met excepted).
No-one is advising them what's going to happen over the next 10+yrs, they haven't a clue, so nothing strategic happens.

Believe it or not, it is the humble UEO who can manipulate movement in the ivory towers. If he/she has their ear, things get done.
The changes that have happened over the 13 yrs I have witnessed have come about by a handful of very passionate UEO's and their unrelenting determination to push forward all sorts of progressive ideas. Of course you need a symapthetic ACPO to run with them too:oh:

I think I can safely say that UK police air ops are the most advanced in the world.:ooh:

[tightrope]

well hopefuly the caa will start releasing the reigns a little and allow the aircraft and personel to work to their full potential some time in the near future..:ugh:

[bell222]

would it now be a good idea in light of recent events to have the whole of the uk covered by asu's i.e kent & lincs ? :ugh:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

would it now be a good idea in light of recent events to have the whole of the uk covered by asu's i.e kent & lincs ?

It's all down to Chief Constables and their budgets (with, obviously, significant input from Police Authorities). As many forces have been caught short by the Gov't pulling central funding for the Pretend Police (PCSOs) - who now have to be paid for entirely by their parent Constabularies - some forces such as Dorset have been actively looking at ways of saving money. Guess which particular assets are seen as instant sources of income should the force choose to dispose of them? Don't go thinking that operational effectiveness wins over beancounting, 'cos it doesn't.

I do agree with you though; having spent many happy shifts in the Kent area on the Air Ambo I don't see how (on operational grounds) the Constabulary there can justify not using a helicopter of their own.

[Thomas coupling]

Kent even has its own UEO - but no air support:ugh:

[maxdrypower]

Saw the 145 yesterday doing its bits and bobs over hyde park for the tour along with four other helis , very impressive and certainly the more quiet of the 5 . Can anyone get the ear of the chief of chiddly PD up north and get us a nice H24 heli instead of H10 Islander

[Thomas coupling]

A big bird tells me your wish is about to come true oh purveyor of police aerial tactics.

[handysnaks]

Are they going to share one then TC?;)

[fkelly]

Tourismkelly......a cynic might suggest that the Met simply want to have a bigger, blacker cat than anyone else........but that would just be scurrilous. There is obviously another reason for choosing the 145.

BTW, Are we related?

[VeeAny]

A BBC news report about the EC145s, short and in laymans terms.

http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/playonevideo.asp?videokey=1627

Heliport sorry if this has been posted before, but if it has I missed it. Feel free to delete this if so.

V.

[Daft bat]

On a serious note good luck to any ASU that can get the funding for the best equipment on the market whether that be aircraft/cameras or any roll equipment.
However it does annoy me that our ASU have to find a 10% cut in our budget next year this will be on top of increased operating costs, you can see our UEO has a tough job to find savings and upgrade equipment at the same time.:ugh:
I know that each force control's it's own business plan,but this must advocates a national Air support wing where individual forces are not having to fight the bean counters, that have no knowledge of Air Support.:D
Sadly it only takes a Chief Constable that is Anti Air Support to put your unit behind the technology curve for some years.:mad:
Sorry probably gone off thread subject slightly.

[CAPTAIN COP!]

I was recently informed from a very good source that the Met's new EC145s do not have FADEC installed? Can any fellow Ppruners shed any light on to this and to the reason why?

I can only guess that it to save on weight for the AUTW and taking into consideration the police role equipment.

If the above is true, where the old and defunct AS355Ns could be started and airbourne within 2 minutes, so I was told, now it takes 4 minutes to get the new EC145s manually started and airbourne.

Lastly, I understand the new aircraft have the night sun and camera fitted towards the front of the skids. Not sure which way around, however due to the postion on the skids the nightsun or camera can not be used at the same time which I find odd, considering the new a/c are "state of the art machines" and at the present are suppose to be the most sophisticated police helicopters in the world.

I am very much interested to hear from people "in the know" and what they think of the equipment setup if true?

Captain Cop!

[Thomas coupling]

EC145's don't come with FADEC ...it's MEGAS instead.

Different configurations come with their limitations. Not familiar with this limit they have regarding NS and FLIR.

[CAPTAIN COP!]

Thank you for the quick response with the requested information.

Just for my knowledge, what's MEGAS and how does it differ from FADEC?

CAPTAIN COP!

[handysnaks]

FADEC is an electronic engine control system.
MEGHAS is the acronym used by Eurocopter to describe the Glass Cockpit Flight and Navigation instrumentation with which the Mets EC145s are fitted.

[Daft bat]

You are correct that the Met 145's have their camera and SX16 mounted on the front of the aircrafts skids. This is a similar fit to the Strathclyde Police 135 fit, one of the advantages of this is they still have the low skid configuration and don't have the problem with skid in the picture from the FLIR camera.
I do believe that the McAlpines pod has great uses, however the way forward for them is to try and slim it down and try and get the 135 back on the low skids to reduce the drag factor and aid the pilot from getting the skid in the middle of the picture just when you don't want it there.
I find it surprising that they cannot operate the camera and the SX16 at the same time, hopefully one of the Met observer can throw some light on this.
Overall they look a nice machine and it was good to see that they followed the home office paint scheme.:D

[Helinut]

Captain Cop,
The issue of whether or not an aircraft is fitted with FADEC or not is not really an accessory or delete option for the operator - it is an essential element in the very guts of the aircraft and its certification. The EC 145 is, in terms of its certification, a BK117 C2 - a development of the BK117. It is not a new type, like the EC135.
The AS355N was a very quick aircraft to start and get airborne in the police role - probably the quickest. The FADEC checks happen in a few seconds. By comparison, the FADEC checks on the EC135 take a little longer. The earlier EC135s just had the FADEC delay, which occurred before engine start. However, on the later EC135s, there is another delay after start, whilst the glass cockpit displays and all the SPIFR gubbins checks itself. This is the MEGHAS referred to earlier.
I guess that the manual engine start on the EC145/BK117C2 will be fairly quick, but they may need to wait for the MEGHAS after start, like the EC135. CPDS.

[Rigga]

"The EC 145 is, in terms of its certification, a BK117 C2 - a development of the BK117. It is not a new type, like the EC135."

According to EASA proposals, the C2 is sufficiently different enough, mechanically, to warrant a separate engineering type rating to the A', B's and the C1.

[ShyTorque]

The AS355N was a very quick aircraft to start and get airborne in the police role - probably the quickest.

I agree, we were once timed going for a "pursuit". Just 47 seconds from leaving the ops room to airborne with 3 pob. Mind you, we needed to be quick off the mark to have a good chance with an IAS of less than 120 kts!

[sunnywa]

The EC145 does not have FADEC but comes with an automatic start for both engines. Not exactly sure how it works but would assume it is like a lot of turbine engines that are started hands off by means of a set of relays on a timer box (to poorly describe it). You start it and then use VARTOMS (VAriable Rotor and TOrrque Matching System) that you use to match torques (unlike the beep switches on the BK) and set the rotor RPM. I believe that the RRPM can be wound down to reduce noise (that is the PR but I haven't witnessed it so remain a sceptic). MEGHAS refers to the glass cockpit only.
Not sure how long each engine takes to start but it won't be airborne in less than 47 seconds. Shytorque, the crewroom must be parked very close to the helo and your straps must be self tightening to make it airborne in that time. Good job.

[sss]

As for the existing 3 x AS355N they're now out of service and awaiting their fate?


and they have appeared on a brokers website so finally appear to be up for sale, one careful owner never raced or rallied.

[bell222]

sss do you know the brokers name and website address thanks

[ppheli]

Yes, they are parked up in the open at Lippitts Hill - within the whole site, but a little away from the helipad. If you know the area, or have an OS map handy, you can see them from the adjacent public footpath

[bell222]

hi there i have just seen a met police ec145 over spalding (lincs) would anybody know why or what it was doing thanks in advance :ok:

[zardoz]

It was chasing a UFO

[Colonal Mustard]

They were probably having a transit flight, helicopters can do that you know!!!:}

[irc1804]

The Met EC145's are not restricted to just operating in the Met Police area ................ they can appear anywhere in the UK as the need arises

[bell222]

any ideas why given that most of the country has air support i know lincs police does not although cambs and humberside do provide some cover:ok:

[irc1804]

See above !! :ok:

[zardoz]

It's the only place they can get their Police radios to work