St Elmo's Fire

[AlexF]

Hi. I'm working for the BBC on a new series on natural phenomena. One of the things that we're keen to film is St Elmo's Fire. I gather you military pilots are the best people to talk to about it as you get it on your nose cones etc. when flying through electrical storms (a weird electrical blue glow and sparks). I've seen a bit of home footage on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sA-Hk_jnPg&eurl=), and have even heard that if you put your hand to the window it acts a bit like a plasma ball. I think we could get some fantastic images of it with professional High-Def cameras.

What I'm keen to know at the moment is how common is it? How many people have seen it - is it pretty much every time you go through a big storm or is it pretty rare?

Any information would be fantastic!

Thanks!

Alex ([email protected])

[heights good]

Alex to be honest i doubt there are many guys out there that will have seen St Elmos fire. We tend to avoid storms for the simple fact that they are dangerous. I hope this helps.

[SiClick]

It is as you describe it, but I have only seen it driving airlines. A Herc mate reckoned it was quite common in their world, as they can't outclimb most CB's

[airborne_artist]

Seconded - a stude on the RNEFTS course after me got the Martin-Baker let-down after getting caught in a violent cu-nimb. He landed in Farmer Giles' meadow, while his QFI landed in the slurry pit.

[Rossian]

As the others have said usually the appearance of the phenomenon was the trigger for "let's get away from it - asap". On a Nimrod it would appear on the AAR probe and on the wiper brackets and, oddly, as a slowly rotating "halo" on the intakes. It was also accompanied by rising static levels on HF and UHF radios as we tiptoed away wincing in anticipation of the lightning strike which often followed. Now THAT was a real attention getter. HTH.
The Ancient Mariner
PS. I seem to remember the explanation was that it concentrated on "conductors where the radius of curvature was smallest". (but I could be wrong)

[ShyTorque]

Alex,
I've seen St Elmo's fire just once, in thirty years of flying for a living. It was when I flew RAF Puma helicopters. It was raining, under a CB cloud, in transit at about 1500 feet, on a very dark night in Denmark in the early 1980s. We were taking part in a special forces exercise.

Myself and the pilot in the other seat first noticed small bluish-white dots moving left/right/left across our windscreens. These turned out to be electrical discharges from the nuts holding on the wiper blades assemblies to the wiper arms. The light dots spread out and got larger until they looked similar to the picture painted on a radar screen, but still fluorescent blue. We quickly realised it was something to do with the pattern of the water film on the glass as it was scraped by the wipers. It was bright, enough to affect our night vision.

Very frightening as we thought we were about to be struck by lightning.
Thanfully, we weren't.

[SidHolding]

I've seen St Elmo's fire 2 or 3 times on Nimrods. Flying at night in proximity to CB's. Blue balls on the 4A fuel tanks and 'dancing' static along the leading edge. The pilots called it on the probe too. As Rossian stated, there was a large amount of static on the V/UHF radios. I let go of the metal handle on the beam window, despite what I'm told of faraday cages!!

[Ken Scott]

Alex,

Seen it only a couple of times, both in a C130K which had the AAR probe fitted. The first time it started with arcing & sparking around the wipers, then a large plume formed on the end of the probe, at its largest it was about 4 feet across! Quite impressive to see, but as we were about to (inadvertantly) enter a CB, not something I would particularly wish to repeat for the benefit of the cameras.

The second was similar but without the large plume, although we had arcing on the prop tips as well. That time we were flying between CBs - we were on a medevac & had to fly low to keep the cabin altitude low for the benefit of the patient so we had to weave through the weather.

Bottom line is that the phenomenon is very rare & we usually do our best to avoid close proximity with CBs, especially at night where it's harder to avoid them visually & when they look more dangerous because you can see the lightning flashing inside them. You could try the Americans, they have aircraft that chase storms for met research purposes though mostly by day I think so not ideal for filming. Good luck!

[Bo Nalls]

1990, Op Granby, Tornado GR1.

Returning from a very dark night TF training sortie with a busted radar, we were vectored at 15k into a lively cb by Saudi ATC. Not to recommended. We lost all comms to static and during the turnabout to exit asap the inside of the cockpit started glowing a bluey-purple colour. All of the cockpit & avionics panels eventually had this glow with arcing occuring between the TV-Tabs and canopy arch. Very eerie and it made one very afraid to touch anything.

As soon as we left the cb all returned back to normal and I've never seen it since.

[SuckMyLozenge]

Seen it 3 times in the last 6 years on E3s, always within proximity of thunderstorms. :sad: Never a comfy feeling!

[US Herk]

Touche', Ratty! :)

Have seen it literally dozens of times in Herks - typically starts on the wipers & may be blue, green, or even red in colour, but blue is by far the most common (of course, on NVGs, it's all green! :} )

We have static strips on the nose of our MC-130H - look a bit like zippers - often see streaks of it along there long before anywhere else since they installed those (last 4-5 years for the new radomes).

Have had the good fortune to not be struck by lightning after experiencing St. Elmo's Fire (knock wood) and have seen it not associated with CBs - ie. in the clear or just stratus clouds, but rare - usually CBs are near.

Have seen it dance on the tips of the pitot tubes, prop spinners, & have it make very symmetrical lines along the windscreen repeatedly (like veins of a leaf), but mainly on the wipers (and nose for the MC-130H).

As stated, nearly always accompanied by static on radios.

Typically, we'll try to change level or course if it persists longer than a couple minutes as it has been documented to precede lightning strikes. :eek:

Have heard stories of "ball lightning" entering the cabin & rolling through the cargo compartment - this from a much older C-141 mate.

[4Greens]

Am ex military and civil:

Long haul airliners in the tropics will experience this phenomenon more and longer than any other operations. Suggest, if you want pics, contact your friendly BA or whatever.

[Melchett01]

Have you tried contacting the Met Office? They used to have a Meteorological Flt that used a C-130 although that has been replaced by a BAe-146 http://www.faam.ac.uk/

They would most likely have done the whole deliberate flying through storms thing rather than everyday sqn pilots who tend to like living and so avoid that sort of thing like the plague.

The USAF also has various met research ac, not sure of details at this late hour, but you could try them as well.

[threepointonefour]

Adriatic, 1993.

Flying out of Italy during Op Deny Flight, we regularly flew thru some very big clouds en-route to Bosnia. The thunderstorms in the Adriatic can be real doozies (if that's how you spell it?).

One memorable night-time sortie I watched St Elmos Fire creep down the nose cone twds the cockpit and also down the inboard pylons and along the 'winder (!!!!). There was some in-cockpit discussion about the effects of said electrical phenomenon on the performance of the AIM 9L IR missile, but we came to no real conclusion and carried on anyway!


ps. I'm not sure if anyone else has said this, but even tho it was somewhat uncomfortable, it was also eerily beautiful. Like an electrical version of watching ice form and grow.

[Farfrompuken]

Have seen it about 2-3 times in the mighty TriMotor crossing the ITCZ en route to Ascension.
Looked like the windshield turned into one of those plasma balls with purple "Lightning" effects all over it. Seemed to pulse, possibly due to the heating elements embedded in the panes.
Scared me witless when I first saw it:eek: Didn't feel alot better about it when I saw it again!

[Zoom]

Seen it a number of times in the Phantom, where it has 'drizzled' across the canopy like a blue gauze sheet. Beautiful and dramatic to behold from about 6 inches.

[False Capture]

"The appearance of St. Elmo's Fire was regarded as a good omen to sailors, it tended to occur in the dissipating stages of severe thunderstorms when the most violent surface winds and seas were abating. Thus, it was interpreted as the answer to the sailors' prayers for heavenly intervention as their patron saint Elmo had come to watch over them and see them safely through the storm."

I've seen 2 really good displays in the last year whilst flying B777s through the ITCZ in Africa. On one occasion we avoided the green returns on our radar by about 40nm which fortunately resulted in a smooth ride. However, we still had the most fantastic display of St. Elmo's Fire on the front windscreens. It lasted about 5 minutes with constant flashes of blue branch-like discharges at its most active. Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera with me.

I love watching St. Elmo's Fire and we often invite the cabin crew up to the flight deck to watch these displays.

[AlexF]

Thanks for all your replies so far. It sounds as if contacting the US Hurricane Hunters is probably the best way to try to get myself and cameraman up into a storm. The descriptions are wonderful, so thank you for everyone who has posted or contacted me so far. It really helps us plan if we know roughly what to expect - and if we've only got a few minutes to film then planning's vital!

False Capture - thanks for your description. Sounds like you're in a particularly good place to see it (maybe we'll head to Africa - it is a lightning hotspot apparently). Can you give me any indications of roughly how frequently electrical storms give good displays, or hints as to how to tell if one will? Is it pretty much a case of 'fly into one and you'll see it', or is it much rarer than that?

Thanks again everyone - I hope we can capture this phenomenon safely on camera to let everyone enjoy it from their sofas!

Alex

[threepointonefour]

AlexF: It sounds as if contacting the US Hurricane Hunters is probably the best way to try to get myself and cameraman up into a storm.

And people say I'm stupid!! :p

[mojocvh]

Bo Nalls had your cab been CFE'd by that time?

rgds

MoJo

[FJJP]

Over the course of my flying career I've experienced it dozens of times, but only once copped a lightning strike.

It can be mesmerising on a clear, quiet night [Canberra over the N Sea] - the intercepting lightning collected a belt that slightly damaged his airframe. Certainly more extensive and spectacular close to thunderstorms in the Med.

I've found it more prevalent on screens fitted with gold film heating, for whatever reason...

[haltonapp]

In the Vickers funbus, in my experience, the windscreens went blue around the edges, and a blue collar was seen around the probe, but in the scarebus I fly in now, it more like a plasma ball!

[False Capture]

AlexF,

Sometimes when you expect to see lots of St. Elmo's Fire you simply don't see anything at all. On the other hand, on a flight out of London a few years ago, we had lots of St. Elmo's Fire despite no returns from any weather on the radar. As a result, I don't think St. Elmo's Fire is something you can predict with any certainty.

Whilst you're investigating St. Elmo's Fire why don't you also have a look at 'plasma balls' which are seen following a lightning strike on an aircraft. They are usually about 12" in diameter and travel down the cabin from nose to tail at about waist height. Just like St. Elmo's Fire they are the result of a gas being turned into a plasma (ie. an ionized gas) by a high voltage.

[Clear Right,Px Good!]

It sounds as if contacting the US Hurricane Hunters is probably the best way to try to get myself and cameraman up into a storm.


Alex F

Your'e right, these boys make a living out of flying into hell & back, they are certifiably mad !

I have seen St Elmo once , a few years ago on a stormy night in a C130. It was without a doubt one of the spookiest things that I have ever seen. It manifested itself as arcing across the front window panels. I wont deny that I have an active imagination, but it seemed to resemble fingers of luminescent green, creeping across the windows, it was beautiful in a strange way, but also served to remind one of their vulnerability at such times.

If you publish your research, let us know, I for one would be interested.

CRPxGood !

[exMudmover]

I’ve seen St Elmo’s on several occasions when instructing on the old JP. In those days we often blundered into cunims at night: radar cover was minimal, the flying had to be done, and there was a much more robust attitude to risk anyway. You could impress the hell out of your stude by holding out your hand towards the windscreen and getting long plasma streamers from each finger tip. A great conversation stopper!

[betty swallox]

Alex F
Seen it so many times on the Nimrod MR2. I suggest you contact the Kinloss PRO. Think it's still Dawn. Maybe she can get you on a jet...it's a "good" time of year for rubbish (cb) weather! Can't remember the extension number, but 01309 672161 will give you a good start.

[Cactus99]

Seen it about 8 times in the last 9 months!! Flying TPs in the UK. Not always associated with CB activity. fairly commonplace really.:ok:

[Confucius]

Back in '95 I was a nav on a 130K flight from Akrotiri via Adana to Nairobi, our route took us virtually over Khartoum. Due to an air traffic delay at the Adana flag stop the sun was already setting as we coasted in North of Cairo, the forecast weather gave us no cause for concern, even with our flight some 2 hours later than planned.

It was a clear night with nothing showing on the radar, the previous day the weather had been fine from Lyneham to Cyprus so there hadn't been a chance to check the '190 on anything other than rocks. As we headed South the stars started to become less distinct, until all that was visible was a soft grey glow, the lack of populated areas on the ground, we had passed Khartoum by now, meant there was very little by which to check the cloud density.

After a few minutes of zero visibility the ride became subject to turbulence, and the wipers started to attract St Elmo's fire. Gradually a rattling noise became ever stronger, until it seemed as though someone were firing a machine gun at us, the cupola had a thick build up of ice as hailstones about the size of marbles started to stick rather than deflect. As the ride grew ever choppier the St Elmo's fire spread to the probe, on looking out of the windows we saw that the wings themselves were glowing blue. It was around this time we surmised that the '190 probably wasn't showing us all that its designer had intended.

That night we all got very, very drunk.

Seen it a few times, just never quite covering the entire airframe as in this case!

[ACW418]

Saw it once in the tin triangle letting down into Finningley at night through the slot in the airway - can't remember what height the slot was now but about 15 to 20k feet I think. We were not aware of any cb activity but since you couldn't see much out of the aircraft that may be an unreliable statement.

We had been told about St Elmo's fire but no-one told us it was associated with danger so we thought it looked very pretty. It just outlined the windscreen but I do not recall what colour.

ACW

[Captain Wan King]

Seen St Elmos fire many times. A purple sparking glow on the nose of the plane seen lighting upwards on the windscreen. From the cabin can be seen (more faintly) dancing on the leading edge. Probability and statistically you need to fly a good number of hours in your career to see the stuff. The chances are it'll be close to a TS, in very moist unstable air. Struck by lightning with no St Elmos fire beforehand though, and seen some really impressive SE fire without any lightning flashes too.

[matkat]

Saw it many times as a flight mechanic on tristars sometimes used to discharge through the cabin real attention getter, I remember one time we had a pax in the cockpit who was a target banner towing pilot flying lears out of Naples he told me that if they encountered it they had to cut the tow cable or it woukld discharge in the cabin with a loud bang!!

[4Greens]

Sorry guys and gals of the military. Have spent hours flying with St Elmo in the tropics, in cruise, in civil aircraft.

[Fred Gassit]

I've experienced it many times, usually associated with light rain close to the freezing level and rarely around storms, definitely prevalent in the tropics though. Plexiglass windscreens seem to attract it more, I thought it was worse on older machines and put it down to static wicks being past their use-by date.

[Jambo Jet]

I too have seen St Elmo's fire a few times in a C130.

The last time was the most spectacular. We were flying somewhere over North Western Pakistan up at 330 avoiding thunderstorms. We had just passed a really large cell and were out of the cloud.

Initially, on the windows just by the wipers, green snakes of light dancing up the screen. I thought the window had cracked as they looked like they were arcing.

Then the colour changed from green to blue to magenta, and the whole probe, all the windows and the leading edges of the wings were alight with little spikes of lightening.

The noise became quite deafening, sparking, the copilot was shiittiing himself and screaming and then the most beautiful sight - the probe gave off an amazing canopy like someone had just opened an umbrella of purple sparklers all radial and focused on the probe.

Wish I had my camera

[MelbPilot85]

Same as 4Greens, I have seen it many times flying a civil aircraft (airbus). It was awesome and mesmorising the first time I saw it. Very cool. I believe it is the discharce of static built up by the friction of ice crystals rubbing together or on the airframe that causes it, and it is at least for me unpredictable. I guess it has to do with the different altitudes flown by the military guys due to different a/c that means they don't see it often, because I guarantee you that all the people I fly with see it quite regularly.......

[critical winge]

I also have seen it much more out of the UK and around the ITCZ, frequently the E / W descent in / out of Japan seems to produce a lot of St Elmos. The problem is, you could fly 100 times in the area and never get it or fly 5 trips and see it 5 times! Like most things in nature, this will require many hours of nothing video and then all of a sudden it will be there. Problem also is that you would have to get cockpit access the whole time, probably not possible in these times. I suggest getting the help fom an airline and getting them to carry your camera on a certain route for a few months and see if they are willing to shoot it for you if they will?
Rgds

[Rocket2]

Sat in the back of an Otter floatplane on our way back to Goose Bay from a fishing trip in '79. Windows start to spark from corners to middle, sparking grows rapidly into what looked like a furnace, spectacular but rather scary so we all tightened our seatbelts, then an almighty bang as God's big spark hit us on the prop, engine goes quiet. Looked forward, pilots working like one armed paper hangers to get the mighty Pratt working again. Never got to say thanks guys, but still very grateful!:ok:
R2

[mbga9pgf]

I have seen it regularly in my relatively short career on hercs. I even filmed it through NVGs two nights ago. Looks awesome. Unfortunately, as I am in the sandpit, it will be very very difficult to get to you :-( If your TV prog is being aired after the end of march I can get a clip to you if required.

First time it happened we had two inches deep of "fire" across the windscreen, props and wings, with a greeney-purple tinge, as we flew between two ENOURMOUS cells round Nice/Monaco region. It discharged as a lightning bolt along the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. Very eerie, and the distortion on the radio adds to the tenseness of the situation! Oh, we temporarily lost the wx radar, which was nice!

[betty swallox]

4 Greens. There was me thinking this was a military forum.......!:confused:

[Hilife]

Basingstoke multiplex cinema, 1985 ish. :}

[wileydog3]

Not exactly rare. And while it does occur sometimes when near storms, really all you need is some particles in the air rubbing up against each other creating electric fields. The times I have seen it were in clouds, not necessarily associated with turbulence and also not necessarily followed by a lightning strike.

Have just finished some study on lightning strikes and found some interesting stuff. Didn't know most strikes on airplanes are negative strikes but some (less than 5%) are positive strikes. The positive ones are the ones that can and often do real damage. Negative strikes leave pits and tiny holes. Positive ones can knock stuff off airplanes.

The thing that most associate with lightning is ignition of the fuel tanks and from what I could find, that is an extremely rare occurrence, especially in jets with the very high flash point of jet fuel. With avgas there is a slightly higher risk.

With St. Elmo's you can take your finger and walk some of the charge around on the outside of the window and yes, it does screw up your comm/nav sometimes.

[brakedwell]

From False Capture
Whilst you're investigating St. Elmo's Fire why don't you also have a look at 'plasma balls' which are seen following a lightning strike on an aircraft. They are usually about 12" in diameter and travel down the cabin from nose to tail at about waist height. Just like St. Elmo's Fire they are the result of a gas being turned into a plasma (ie. an ionized gas) by a high voltage.


I experienced this phenomena once during the early eighties in a 737-200 while climbing out of Malpensa with a load of Italian schoolchildren in the back. There were thunderstorms in the area when the lightening strike entered the cockpit near the F/O's windscreen wiper. The fireball passed through the flight deck door, travelled down the aisle, frightening the passengers and cabin crew far**less before exiting through the rear galley. We later found a static wick missing from the starboard elevator. Two things remain in my mind. The loudness of the bang, the brightness of the fireball and 130 normally unruly passengers who stayed strapped in their seats for the rest of the flight to Gatwick.

[AlexF]

We would love to investigate plasma balls as well. I hadn't realised that they were a 'frequent' appearance after a lightning strike (by 'frequent' I mean more than one person has encountered it!), but I've probably heard about 4 or 5 reports of the same phenomenon now. I guess it requires the same conditions as St Elmo's, but we should be ready with cameras to capture a potential plasma ball going down the aisle as well! Anyone have any description of how fast the plasma ball might move?

Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far. I have been following up all the leads you have given me, though not yet pinned down exactly where is the best location - or found myself someone mad enough to take us up there in a storm...

[brakedwell]

Alex
My example moved relatively slowly. After the initial bang of the lightning strike, it was possible to see it move the relatively short distance to the F/D door. If I remember correctly, the cabin crew said it was not "over in a flash", if took a couple of seconds to travel the length of the cabin. It also left behind that acrid smell of electricity. You will need an amazing amount of luck to film a plasma fireball. I only experienced it once (with around twenty lightning strikes) during a flying career of forty years.
BTW, the most spectacular St Elmos fire I have seen was flickering around the spinner and prop blades of the Bristol Britannia east of Bahrain.

[ancientaviator62]

We used to get St Elmos fire on the twin ADF Ae on the nose of the Hastings. That and the ADF unlocking and trying to find the nearest cu nim were usually the only signs that we were anywhere near trouble. No 'cloud and clonk ' in that venerable frame. Also had several strikes in the Herc. Worst was en route Kiev to Lyneham, big bang, flash and a slowish ball of lightning rolling down the cargo compt. Followed by a loud banging on the fuselage roof a la Tony Hancock. One of the Hf Ae had come adrift and frightened us to death. We diverted to Brno where the G/E removed it and we carried on to Lyneham. I believe the exit hole for the strike was up in the 'ducksbill but it seems a long time ago now so I could be wrong. And no the E290 had not given any indication of trouble.

[gravanom]

AlexF - here you go...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=24461f251c

[gravanom]

Disregard my last...that'll teach me to read the whole thread!

[Human Factor]

I've seen St Elmo's numerous times on numerous types. Most visible at night (obviously).

IMHO, if you're struck by lightning as I have been a few times, you will have seen St Elmo's immediately beforehand. However, just because you see St Elmo's, you won't necessarily be struck.

[meadowbank]

Alex
I've seen it many times whilst flying in one of HM pointy jets and have seen it most recently in an A321 on climbout from Birmingham. We were both trying to recognize star constellations when the St Elmo's fire started. We instinctively 'leapt' backwards and I quickly got out my digital camera. Unfortunately, although it was the most spectacular occurrence I'd ever seen, by the time I got the camera running, all I caught were the last couple of flashes. If you PM me with your email address I could send you the file if you're interested.
By the way, we weren't in cloud at the time and there were no storms nearby.
Better yet, I've just a quick search with Google and there's a very good image of St Elmo's Fire as it appears on aircraft windshields at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Elmos_Fire