R22 No Push Stick Foreward.

[bugdevheli]

On my first lesson in a Robinson R22 at no point did my instructor
warn me of the dangerous situation that would occur should i
make a rapid foreward cyclic input. Are there any instructors out
there that have had a near one caused by the student doing
something that was totally unexpected.

[rotordk]

Did he mention dynamic rollover, not to pull the mixture and to stay inside the helicopter ?

[Hilico]

At no point in my first driving lesson did my instructor warn me not to steer directly into opposing traffic. But had I tried, he would have stopped me. By the time I'd had several more lessons, he had covered this point and some others.

[Whirlybird]

I warn trial lesson students about sudden forward movements of the cyclic, and I was actually told about doing so on my FI course. But of course, there are the students who don't listen. I had one guy who thought he knew it all, and interrupted everything I said. So he went, "Oh, I see, if you move it back you slow down. And if you move it forward..." I grabbed the cyclic and reminded him of what I'd said. Then in the hover, I gave him the pedals, which he managed rather well, especially considering the wind was 15-20kts. and he goes, "So if you want to turn right..." And again I took over before he could put in full right pedal, and in that wind we'd probably never have managed to stop it turning. And by this point I was angry, and gave him hell for not listening or doing what I told him.

But that sort of thing doesn't happen very often.

[TheMonk]

The instructor didn't want to scare the student too early into the game. He has your safety covered I'm sure. Things wil come in due time.

[TwinHueyMan]

On my first true instructional flight in a Robbie, I was given a brief overview about pushing the cyclic, dropping the collective, pulling the collective, and pushing the pedals too much. Good brief intro to neg G, VRS, drooping the rotor and LTE followed... and it only took 10 minutes to get a good grasp. The instructor said she did this with everyone, and found it really helped curb the typical overcontrolling of an early student not to mention actually getting into those situations for real.

-Mike

[Head Turner]

A lady fixed wing pilot came for a trial lesson. After a full briefing we got airbourne. Small movements were stressed throughout the briefing and demonstrated during flight. Lady followed through on the controls during the demonstrations. Handling over control of the cyclic for her to perform a level out from a gentle climb attitude. Her action was to push almost fully the cyclic forward. Rather scared me, and I took control. After further demos and confirmation that she understood the difference between her control action and the small movements that I showed her, I again gave her control. Covering the cyclic I asked her to level out. Wow! She did the same thing again. Why wasn't I getting the message through? We then spent a time reviewing the problem. After she affirmed that she would only move the cyclic a small amount when she took control, I handed over the control to her. Guess what....she did the same thing again.
I took control and headed back to base. On the debrief I asked whether she really had a fixed wing licence that she claimed and sure enough she did.
Well thankfully she never came back and I was more than thankful that we had done the trip in an H269 and not an R22. Had it been the latter I would now not be writing this.

[fulldownauto]

Turner,
Perhaps you were speaking tongue in cheek, but I'd imagine you'd still be here if she did that in the R22. . . For a couple reasons: the first being that when giving the student the controls in the R22 for the first time, I don't know anyone who would take their hand completely clear of the cyclic. I usually guard the front. Secondly, low G is a completely recoverable condition, mast bumping isn't and they are not one and the same.
I've had a student (try) to go full forward with the cyclic and full down collective after a simulated engine failure. Was certainly an unusual attitude recovery.
I'm sure the instructors here could fill a 50 page long topic on all the things their students have done, always exciting. . .
Keep your guard up!

[tangovictor]

when i took some lessons in a r22, the instructor said, hold the cyclic as if you were holding another mans unmentionable, 2 fingers, lightly as if you really didn't want to hold it, lol, it worked :D

[PhilJ]

taken from the findings of the NTSB special investigation into robinson loss of main rotor control

"Although flight
instructors should be able to prevent a student pilot from improperly manipulating the controls by
guarding the controls, the Board is concerned that flight instructors may not always or properly
guard the cyclic flight control during long periods of instructional flight because of the somewhat
awkward position of the cyclic-T handle for the nonflying pilot. Based on the Richmond,
California, accident, the Bell Helicopter study, and the Georgia Tech study, the Board concludes
that the low inertia main rotor blade can diverge from normal rotation to strike the body of the
helicopter in just a few revolutions of the blade. This would take less than 0.5 seconds when the
blade is operating at a normal rate of 530 rpm. Thus, unless the instructor is actually holding the
cyclic handle and preventing a large, abrupt input, there is insufficient time for the instructor to
react once a student makes such an input."

[rotorfan]

I was a 20-year plank jockey before starting RW training in the R22. My first flight was just an intro, but the instructor let me try the cyclic. Plenty of PIO. I was then assigned to a brand-new 200-hour instructor. I was his first student. :}
Looking back on it, it could have been a recipe for disaster. My advice to instructors is that the most dangerous people to teach are long-time FW types. Why? Because we're taught that in a stall situation, push over to unload the wing. So, that comes very naturally to a stude like I was. Because my CFI wasn't FW trained, he didn't know to be on guard for it. I thank heavens that I was a good enough student to have read a lot, and learned from the book not to push over on a teetering head. Still, it takes discipline to not do what has been hammered into your head for years. In a panic, that pushing instinct could show up at the worst time.
Oh, yeah, as a long-time motorcyclist, I was also corrupted on which way the throttle turns (opposite between heli and bike). I scared the instructor and myself real nice on that one. :eek:
Non-pilots might be the best students because they're too stoopid to have any bad habits. :ok:
rf

[Enzo...TMBPITC]

Its one of those things where you need to stress the importance of safety without scarying the hell out of someone before they even step foot into the machine. I was never briefed on this particular risk - mind you I was also an experienced crewman with some knowledge in the area so I imagine the instructor assumed that I knew a little bit about the machines and what to do and what not to do. After having worked in various operations, from small singles to medium twins with so many customers and operating crews, you just have to use your discretion each time you fly with someone, whether they be a first timer on their first lesson or someone you have flown with numerous times. You cover the basics and then go from there.

Tangovictor....I was told something different, but with a twist...pretend the cyclic is a fresh turd...squeeze it lightly and all will be ok, squeeze too tight and it ends up between your fingers and it turns into a real mess...just like trying to hover in strong winds when tensing too much - it all turns to poo.

[choppergod]

Head Turner - You are obviously just as incompetent as I first thought. A student is only as good as their instructor (her first flight). There are those who can fly and those who can instruct, you obviously can not do either.You would have served the industry well to walk away with her whilst referring her to a competent instrutor.

Chopper god has spoken!

[choppergod.]

I love you all!

I just want to cuddle you all up nice and snug :)

Choppergod has spoken!

[Disguise Delimit]

Can somebody please pull that dill's probation? :suspect:

[aclark79]

If your in the US (orginal poster) then you should have had some kind of briefing regarding Low G pushover, since its required by the SFAR 73. Now granted you dont have a log book to endorse, but you should have gotten a verbal brief (I always log a note that I verbally gave the SFAR in my logbook). You have to strike a balance between informing your student, and scaring the hell out of them.

If your instructor had been to the safety course (which is almost a prerequisit for instructing in the us due to insurance requierments), then he should have been given the 'Tim Tucker Approved' method of a nice gentle brief that covers all the safety areas without scaring the lving daylights out of a student. ITs what I use with all my intro flights and I think it works very well.

Ive heard of schools that make thier new students watch the Robinson safety video with the straight down Low RPM crash in England complete with the dead bodies.... I think thats a bit over the top.

I have had two students who were very experianced fixed wing pilots and while I 'trusted' them, I always guarded the cyclic incase they tried a stall recovery.

[bladewashout]

My US school made all new students watch the Safety video as the first thing we did after walking into the flying school on day 1, complete with dead people, and an army video about mast bumping. This was before any discussion about flying at all. We then had to do an exam on it before finally discussing it with the instructor.

Scared the crap out of some us, and everyone had the same view - do I really want to do this?

The rather gruff CFI's response when I said it was fairly heavy stuff at 7:30am on the first day was simply to tell us we had better get serious if we wanted to fly.

It did have a very negative impact on me, and instilled a level of fear from before my first flight that has taken a long time to come to terms with.

BW

[scooter boy]

BW, I (as I am sure many of us have) sat through the same "and here are the bodies of 2 people who crashed their R22 just a few minutes ago" safety course. Definitely focuses the attention.:sad:
When the fear instilled by such a course starts to wear off I would recommend doing another safety course.
It is fear (and respect for the limitations of the machine - particularly wrt the 22) that keeps us alive.

SB :ok:

[IntheTin]

My old school, here in Florida, made us watch that video before we went solo for the first time. We were ready for it by then.
As an instructor I never relinquish controls fully anyway, but I always explain about any abrupt cyclic movement. I show them in flight that it's just not needed. I get them to watch and feel how much input I make and then get them to take it for themselves.
I never let them have collective in a demo. I think enough is going on without needing them to have that also.

[slowrotor]

In the book "The Helicopter" by Jacob Shapiro, who was a helicopter engineer says:
"In the helicopter the results of carelessness are of the same kind as fixed wing though not so severe, and it is questionable whether any helicopter can be broken in this way".

I guess modern trainers are less forgiving of pilot error than they were in 1957 when this book was first published.

[diethelm]

I am still trying to figure out the difference between foreward and forward.

[rotarypilot]

My worst and best flight involved a check ride before I took delivery of a new R22 for delivery to Northern Alberta. My check ride was fairly uneventful until the pilot checking me out decided it would be a good idea to check my "bush sense" and asked me to enter an extremely tight confined area (even for an R22) with tonnes of overhanging dead fall, and tonnes of tree stumps. I said no initially, however he explained exactly how he wanted it done and that he wanted me to at least make an effort so after a few dummy runs in we went. Pucker factor of about 8....:bored:

After that I think he just got bored and he decided to demo OGE zero speed auto's and wrapped it all up with a demonstration of Vortex Ring State at altitude. It was needless to say an enlightening experience, but not an enjoyable one. In the end it was nice to see what the aircraft could do but it also gave me a healthy respect for staying within the flight envelope. Who knows maybe that flight saved my life once or twice?

[Kengineer-130]

Hi guys,
as fixed wing PPL I quite fancy doing a PPL(h) at some point, and I am reading this thread with interest :ok: - Can someone explain why sudden forward movements of the cyclic are so dangerous please?

[OFBSLF]

Can someone explain why sudden forward movements of the cyclic are so dangerous please?I'm sure the experts here will chime in shortly.

Helicopters with a teetering rotor system can experience mast bumping in negative g. The results are usually unfavorable.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1488804

[Graviman]

Kengineer-130,

I don't claim to be an expert, and certainly disregard my comments if an instructor chips in...

A helicopter cyclic movement initially controls the pitch/roll acceleration of the helicopter. The rotor responds quickly and the heli starts to swing, but it takes a while for the rate to build up. As the fuselage rolls or pitches the machine then becomes velocity control like a fixed wing. This is caused by the lag in rotor following heli, leading to an equilibrium at a fixed pitch or roll rate - basically the swash plate angle is now generating gyroscopic nutating forces. Once the heli starts to translate (or change its translational speed) flapback then leads to positional control on the cyclic.

Eventually the system will reach the attitude demanded, but the delay in response can lead to overcontroling hence reduced-g mast bumping (or PIO in hover). There is also the fact that the range of cyclic movement required for flapback (heli version of dihedral) increases stick sensitivity.

Actually a suprisingly good way to train your reflexes for the fine movements required is to thermal a glider. Being near stalling, while in a turn seems to make you much more aware of the aircraft feedback. It's been a little while since i flew anything though... :uhoh:

Mart

[Graviman]

Just reworded that last post, having looked it up in Prouty. This was more for my own sanity, since i like to make sure i understand such things.

I would be more than happy if anyone were to correct it, since it would also benefit my understanding.

Mart