State of Licence Issue, CPL Training Abroad in JAA Land

[BlueRobin]

I have noticed a worrying amount of people who having done their JAR ATPL theory in the UK, have spotted some good looking ads in the mags for CPL training within Europe and decided that yes that's for them. This is without being aware of the "State of Licence Issue" issue, which would generally exclude you from obtaining a commercial licence in another JAA state having done the UK theory. That is unless you can meet the 185 residency rule in the foreign state where you wish to train.

There is a paragraph though in LASORS that leaves the door slightly ajar.



JAR-FCL CPL Modular Course of Flying Training completed in another JAA Member State (other than the UK)

An applicant who has a valid pass in JAR-FCL Theoretical Knowledge Examinations completed through a UK Approved Training provider, wishing to
complete a CPL modular course of flying training in another JAA Member State should in the first instance contact the Authority of that Member State. The
applicant should confirm with that other State that they are willing to recognise their JAR-FCL Theoretical Knowledge Examinations and that they will be the ‘State of Licence Issue’.



The question is then which JAA States offer a blanket acceptance of the UK ATPL theory exams? Particularly so Spain and Greece, which seem quite well talked about here.

[sam34]

Spain, Germany, Belgium do not accept your uk theory... for the spanish CAA, you have to do your CPL where you passed your theory.
About Greece I do not know.
But I think, I am not sure, that France accepts your uk theory! writte them.
The cost is not really different, but the weather is! particularly in the south of France of course.

[OsPi]

That is unless you can meet the 185 residency rule in the foreign state where you wish to train.

Can you please tell me more about that one.

I'm a resident in Sweden wanting to do my ATPL-tehory at OAT and then do all of the flying in Sweden, with Sweden being the State of Licence Issue. According to Swedish authorities I can't because they don't recognise the theory exams from U.K.

[Walk the line]

Basically If you do the ATPL theory exams in the UK, the license issue can ONLY be the UK or Ireland (both CAA's have agreement). If you do your ATPL theory in Ireland/UK you MUST complete the JAA CPL flight test at a UK - FTO (not necessarily in the UK). So....please don't "be alarmed".......

[BlueRobin]

Actually that only seems to apply to those who have obtained a licence and wish to transfer the State.

I thought the CAA's position on exempting and allowing any theory pass (bar PPL) is a surprisingly liberal stance.

[skyhigher]

if you pass your atpls at bristol (for example) can you do the cpl in greece 9for example.

thanks

[BA123]

Yes you can do the CPL in another country.

[jerezflyer]

I am in a similar position to you. I am doing the ATPL with GTS; however you must do the CPL flight training in the same country as the theory, i.e. UK. The IR, ME or FI are ratings and can be done in any JAA state.

[BillieBob]

LASORS makes it perfectly clear that flight training must be completed in the same state as the theoretical knowledge examinations except in circumstances agreed by two authorities. At present, the only such agreement in place is between the UK and the Republic of Ireleand.

If you are intending to take the TK exams in the UK and the flight training in another member state, you will not be able to get the licence issued in the UK. You would be well advised, before parting with any money, to obtain confirmation, preferably in writing, from the authorities concerned that what you intend to do is acceptable to them.

[BlueRobin]

That is the sensible and grown up thing to do ;) Don't be wary of the Authority, go and ask.

I have heard, albeit I hold my hands up readily and potentially unreliable third-hand information to admit on a public forum, that a certain Greek FTO claims the Hellenic Civil Aviation Authority recognise the UK ATPL theory. Thus the claim is a UK JAR theory pass and undertaking a Greek JAR CPL is perfectly acceptable.

So do though be wary of claims made by training organisations. Their interpretation of the law is not binding.

Stroll on EASA I say hopefully with less binding national rules.

[BillieBob]

Any member state may choose to ignore the requirements of JAR-FCL and Greece has clearly, and unsurprisingly, elected to do so in accepting the UK CAA exams without a formal agreement with the UK CAA, in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.065(b).

Whlist this is in the financial interests of Greek FTOs, such as Egnatia, it is not in compliance with JAR-FCL and you should be aware that any other member state would be quite within its rights to refuse to recognise a licence issued under these conditions. It is, therefore, in your interest to confirm with your own Authority that it will recognise a licence or rating based on such non-compliant training.

[frodegh]

Most CAA's will agree that a CPL will have to be done in the same country as the CPL/ATPL theory, based on JAR-FCL 1.065 "State of licence issue". Fair enough.

However, some CAA's also require that the IR is done in the same country as the IR/ATPL theory, while others don't.

Specifically, Norwegian CAA will not allow me to take IR training elsewhere if I do my ATPL theory in Norway, while UK CAA approves this, according to JAR-FCL 1.065 (c) (http://www.lovdata.no/for/grafikk//pdf/sd-20050201-0090-a.pdf) (page 22 in pdf, see also statement 4 in this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2392261&postcount=171) quote from UK CAA)

I just called Aerodynamics Malaga, and they confirmed that lots of UK students (with UK ATPL theory) have done MEIR/MEP with them, and UK CAA approves it without question, as any another rating.

My main question is, are there other countries allowing this besides UK?
(Not just relating to Spain or Aerodynamics, but anywhere within JAA-land?)

Another question is - do the UK CAA let you guys do the MEIR/MEP in Spain/elsewhere BEFORE you do your CPL (after atpl-theory)?


Further details "for anyone interested"..
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am currently corresponding with the Norwegian CAA's "inspector of education" regarding the possibility to do my MEIR and MEP in Spain. He tells me that they consider IR part of "basic training", and therefore the IR theory (standalone or within ATPL) and training will have to be done in the same country.

His position is that I may take the IR rating in Spain, on top of my PPL, as long as I take the standalone IR theory there as well. Norwegian CAA, being the state of my PPL issue, will then add the rating to my PPL, no questions asked, and I may procede with ATPL theory and CPL training in Norway. After being asked directly (twice) for a JAR-FCL reference to back up the "IR = basic training" interpretation, he only states that this is how they consider it, and fails to provide a valid reference.

Any further insight in this issue is much appreciated, be it FCL reference to back up "IR = basic training" or anything else related.

Please note that I am not considering the condition described in JAR-FCL 1.065 (b) (http://www.lovdata.no/for/grafikk//pdf/sd-20050201-0090-a.pdf), relating to agreements between two countries' CAA to let you finish whatever's left of your training elsewhere due to you moving to another country, and similar reasons. (Norwegian CAA seem to allow this)
What I'm after is experience with other countries treating IR like - just that - a rating, and not "part of a licence", "basic training", or anything else.

[JUST-local]

Has anybody applied for an exemption with either authority (Pref. both) to do the CPL training and skill test in spain with ATPL theory from the UK? Florida is a long way away I like to stay local (ish)
Cheers
JL.......

[BillieBob]

JAR-FCL 1.065(a) states "An applicant shall demonstrate the satisfactory completion of all requirements for licence issue to the Authority of the ‘State of licence issue’" while JAR-FCL 1.065(c) states "Further ratings may be obtained under JAR–FCL requirements in any JAA Member State and will be entered into the licence by the State of licence issue."

It is clear that the line taken by the Norwegian CAA is not compliant with JAR-FCL as the IR is, by definition, a rating, whether or not some bureaucrat considers it to be a part of basic training. However, JARs are only 'Requirements' and JAA member states are free to pick and choose which they will comply with - just as other member states are free to refuse to accept licences and ratings where their issue has not been compliant with JAR-FCL as they interpret it (e.g. France and Spain frequently refuse to accept ratings where the training has been conducted outside of the JAA). This should all go away when EASA takes responsibility for ops and licensing in a couple of years time when EASA standards have the force of EU law(although since Norway is not a member of the EU it may still refuse to comply).

It is doubtful that the UK CAA will be very keen on coming to any arrangement with the Spanish authority, judging by the opinions expressed recently by one of their senior staff examiners. The conduct of Spanish training and testing, especially for the IR and FI, does not seem to be held in particularly high regard in the UK.

[frodegh]

From JAR-FCL and Billybob's post I am assuming that most european countries, like UK, allows IR training and ATPL theory being done in different states. I would like to have this confirmed, though. So.. is there anyone here that has actually done this with a state of licence issue other than UK?

Aerodynamics Malaga told me that they only had UK students in this position so far, and that the german CAA also refused to let german students train with them (don't know the details on this one, though).

Is the spanish CAA's position on this relevant at all?
Have they specifically approved to let foreign students take IR training with them, with ATPL theory issued in other states, or are they not involved in this process at all? Has UK students done IR training in other countries than Spain? (with FTO's other than those with special agreements according to Standards doc 31 (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1211))
Or say if someone from UK wanted to take IR training in Norway (god forbid).. Could he be stopped by the norwegian CAA, or would this be an issue between the FTO and UK CAA alone?

Billybob: What type of arrangement between UK and Spanish CAA are you talking about?

[stefair]

Hi all,

Assuming I completed my ATPLs with a UK provider and also hold a Class 1 medical plus a UK CPL but decided to do my MEP/IFR in another JAA member state, for instance Germany --since flying training towards these ratings would be significantly cheaper over there than in the UK-- would the order of training conducted matter? In other words, could I, once done with my ATPLs, get my MEP/IFR in Germany first but followed by the CPL training in the UK or vice versa? Or do I have to get the CPL first before adding the MEP/IFR ratings? I'd prefer to do MEP/IFR first as the hours flown towards completion could be used to meet the total time requirement for CPL issue. I know this is possible if the entire training is completed with a UK school, for instance at BFC and in my view that way I'd kill two birds with one stone and save myself some further £££s.

Thanks a lot for your comments folks!

[BlueRobin]

You can add ratings (MEP, IR, FI etc) to a PPL or CPL. So you could do your ratings or your commercial licence first.

[stefair]

BlueRobin,

Please note I hold a FAA Private Pilot Certificate, not a JAA PPL. Could I still obtain the MEP, IR first or does this change matters?

[BlueRobin]

Hmmm I would from my armchair say you need a minimum of an ICAO PPL so you are fine there. Depends if you wanted to exercise the rights of the licence upon gaining each ticket. If so, a FAA>JAA PPL conversion is not too arduous (but does involve some flying). If not you could I guess submit the CPL application with the ratings paperwork at the same time (assuming the applicaiton period for each signoff hasn't expired by then). Note you may need the MEP for solo rides along the way, this I am unsure of. Best to check with your FTO's Head of Training.

[boberto79]

Hi all,
First time on this really cool helpful site !

I dont know if this would help but I attended OAT Modular Theo classes and 1 of my class mates which came from Cypres with a PPL and Twin rating, when he passed his exams went to Greece (Egnatia Aviation) to do the rest of the ATPL with no problem from where the ATPL Theo were taken.

And has now passed it all and waiting to get a job.