Are you staying?

[South Bound]

All

just a quick plea for anyone serving that actually wants to remain within the Service to take a moment and tell us why. I don't know about anyone else, but I am ticking off the days I have left and think it is a bit sad and could use a bit of motivation or a reminder of what it is I am missing. Having been away for a while recently, I seem to be in a majority with very few people looking beyond option/exit points.

Go on, motivate me with your tales of excitement and enthusiasm.

SB

[L1A2 discharged]

Ummm, ........ lets see,
No.:E


110 'working' days:ok:

[Mightycrewseven]

I've got one...........................


!
!
!
!
!

Nope............it's gone :sad:

[Dr Schlong]

What about the ....erm..... ah there's the extra ..... nope that's gone too ... although we did just get .... but quarter charges ate that up ... dammit ... there must be something ...
Feel depressed now :(
Ah ha! (Fine band btw!)
I still get to fly most weeks and I've seen a few nice places amongst the dross -there! :p

[Stupid Boy]

I am staying and are in the process of extending my service to age 55. Am I mad? Well possibly, but lets be honest, my trade has little use in civvy street and I currently get paid a bucket full of money to do very little. The Service gives me the security that I require and saves me having to buy a house in this country (own one overseas).

The RAF is certainly not the one which I joined nearly 20 years ago. It is ridiculously top-heavy (68 Group Captains at Wycombe alone), and the new expeditionary blah is not not what I joined up for, but overall the good points are still outweighing the bad points in my opinion. Had I any viable option in civvy street then I may have left, but having just calculated my pension at my exit point I know that extending my service is the correct decision for my circumstances :ok:

[Avtur]

PAS Pension. Thats it... I'll turn off the lights.

[Stupid Boy]

Ratty

No I am not on the the PAS, wish I was though. That really would be the icing on the cake. Money makes the world go round after all!! :)

[threepointonefour]

L1A2,

I raise you 65 days ... only 45 for me!

And good riddance to me too - I'm far too cynical these days.



Avtur,

Are you saying you're not kept in the dark like the rest of us?

[mutleyfour]

Job interview for me on 5th march then if all goes well its Cheerio from me!

[Ken Scott]

Reasons for staying in:

1. It suits me from a purely selfish point of view - good pay (PAS), good pension (PAS again), boarding school allowance.

2. I live in my own house with a reasonable commute & a number of stations around to potentially serve at for future postings.

3. I enjoy my job, & I hate route flying which would become my bread & butter if I left & joined an airline.

4. If anything changed any of the above, I'm off!

[Overtorque]

6 months and 3 weeks.

Not that I'm counting.

Been a lot of fun, but now ready to go.

[Number2]

Been out over 3 years now (and was reluctant to leave). I now earn over twice as much as I did when I was in and don't have to answer to complete t#2ts (very few good bosses around when I left) and I don't have to be part of Tony Blair's drive for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Had a great time, it was fun - do I miss Service life? No way (sad though that is).

[Biggus]

Stupid Boy - "....my trade has little use in civvy street and I currently get paid a bucket full of money to do very little...."

Given that you are apparently from Lincolnshire that gives several options, E-3D, Typhoon (but you are obviously not a pilot) or the world of training perhaps?

It seems to me to be very much a two tier RAF at the moment. I would guess that the SH and AT world, amongst others, would quiet like to be doing .... "very little". The strain of continued Ops/deployments is undoubtably one of the reasons why people are leaving in increasing numbers.

[D-IFF_ident]

I can think of only one group of people that could have a reason to stay:

Divorced blokes with kids, claiming Boarding School Allowance and not interested in ever getting married again.

16 Months to go...

[spectre150]

Biggus has summed my position up. As one of the lucky(?) ones in the 2-tier system who is not deployed and dicked around on a nearly permanent basis and being well paid in a cushy environment I have no reason to leave. I am not on PAS, couldnt get this salary outside (no transferable skills) and have a youngster with many years of school ahead of him. Now if I was in a branch/trade that was on ops more than I was at home, putting up with all the push factors that are aired on here I would have left already or be about to. There are people who are content - maybe they just dont air their views on pprune as much as the guys who are p*ssed off.

[rudekid]

Number 2
Always interests me that you would be out three years, don't miss it, yet still hang around on a Military Aircrew bulletin board!
Increasingly, this board is populated by people who have already left, gobbing off about bad life in the military is, yet still feeling they have a 100% valid input to the debate.
I've no issue with the guys who are leaving, that's your choice but don't try and take everyone else with you!
Serve your time or leave early if you want, just leave it alone once you're gone!

Diffident

What about people who just like it?

And yes, I don't have much imagination, so I'm staying. Airline flying doesn't appeal to everyone and I am still having a great time with some top blokes who feel the same way. There are still a load of things that appeal to me about life in the military that I would never get close to replicating in the commercial world, either in or out of an airline cockpit.
For those of you who are leaving very shortly, good luck in civvy street and I look forward to reading your input on here over the next few years!;)

[London Mil]

I would stay if:
We actually had an air force.
We had enough people to operate that air force.
We could look beyond those hairy bits in the middle of our noses regarding career management (across the board here - not just talking about occifers)
We stopped pontificating and made some decisions.
We managed to convince various others that we weren't "utterly, utterly...."
Our country looked upon us in the same light that the Americans look upon their armed forces.
We didn't issue mad directives about getting one star officers to approve a £90 EasyJet flight whilst sqn cdrs could still authorise a £300+ Eurostar trip to the same location.
... I had any loyalty left.

[mutleyfour]

Anyone whom has been to either Operational Air bridge these past 12 months or so would see the enormous strain that is affecting morale!

[toddbabe]

wild horses couldn't prevent me from leaving at my option point in a few years.
Am not worried about leaving, am looking forward to finding a job that gives me satisfaction, and rewards me mentally even if not fiscally.
There is more to life than money, not that the mob pays that well, not for what we do and where we do it!

[Comp Charlie]

I am currently OOA in one of those places operating in support of Op Telic that SHOULD be one of the best and cushiest numbers going.

However because of the total and utter inepititude and incompetence of management from Line Supervisor upwards I have taken the decision whilst out here to bang out on my return to the UK.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at the total and utter disregard for people and welfare - I wouldn't treat a dog/ rapist/ murderer the way we are treating people.

I shouldn't be surprised after 16 years in the Mob but I can no longer handle it personally. It seriously makes me want to weep for how inept leadership from the very top down has broken this once great and proud organisation.

The sooner I wipe my hands of the whole sorry mess the better.

Feels a bit better getting that off my chest anyhow.

CC

[BellEndBob]

'Broken' is the key word. After 16 years I am of the opinion that we are broken beyond repair. Our top leadership is criminally inept. People no longer care. Standards are through the floor. Hundreds of Senior Officers but no effective numbers of combat aircraft to support the two wars we are currently fighting!


11 months and counting.

[Number2]

Rudekid

I don't 'hang around' a military forum! I still work in aviation and I feel it's important to keep an ear to the ground - is that so bad?! I'm saddened by what is going on in the Service and, just like my ex-RAF father before me, I will always have an interest in it's 'well-being'. I'm sorry if that annoys you so much! If you read my post, I said I had a great time and I never thought I'd leave. The majority of people like me are still entitled to an opinion aren't they - especially as I did 20 years in the Service.

Good luck with your chosen career.

[mutleyfour]

Spot on Number 2

[rudekid]

Number 2

You may wish to read my original post again. I don't express (or feel) any annoyance, just a little surprise.

I wouldn't necessarily feel I had a 100% valid input to a debate on, for example, why I love my airline job. Sure, I've got an opinion on why I might not like it, but does that make my opinion more relevent.

Opening a response to a thread entitled 'Are you staying?' with the gambit "Been out three years now" still seems a little strange to my mind.

Maybe I should open a thread entitled "When did you leave and why...' and see what the response woud be...:E

[South Bound]

Guys

you are not making me feel any better here.... looking for motivation to stay!

[Lazer-Hound]

Sorry to butt in here, but why is it so difficult to get rid of all the useless brass? Not just an RAF problem, RN and Army have it too. Surely before units and equipment are cut, expensive but unnecessary senior poosts should be cut?

[threepointonefour]

44 days now.


ps. Mutley - I too have an interview around the 5 March ......?!

[225Turbo]

Well, i put my PVR in and Im out in August, after 12 years. I like the job i do, but the extra ****e and clowns that manage me are 'utterly utterly useless'

[225Turbo]

is there a need for them outside?

[Stitchbitch]

A Civvi fluffer? Would have thought your helmet polishing days were over Ratty1:}

[threepointonefour]

Burgers .

[threepointonefour]

I have a private, non-aviation venture (2 actually!) but also have 2 future job interviews in aviation plus a backup of middle east flying.

I met an electrician last month who made 75k in the UK last year. And the year before he made 105k working in Spain. Not Basra or Baghdad, although there are maybe more bullets in Birmingham!?

I have had, as I'm sure others have, the realisation that RAF pay, even as PA, is not actually that good. The truth really is that people who stay either do like their jobs, or just can't be arsed to find another one. If I'd stayed, I'd probably have very quickly become the latter, so decided to go. I've had a good time and will leave with some great memories - it didn't go too sour at the end and I'll look back with satisfaction, pride and a little sadness.

[9.81m/s/s]

south bound : how about staying in to say you had done the triple?

IRAQ, IRAN, AFGHANISTAN....and if you are really lucky... PAKISTAN...
in fact...hell......why not change your name by deed poll to ' Stan Striker ' ?

[pigfist]

Fellas,

Alternatively we could all stay - on the off-chance there's a proper scrap (rather than one the septics started) which may require us to get the job done. Oh, but you guys will all be off, re-routing around the war zone, in your wide-bodies, wishing you were strapped in and doing 550 kts carrying skinny white wingmen. Take the cash and run ................... no honour amongst thieves.

[toddbabe]

Pigfist are you having a laugh? the reasons behind the war are a major cause of dissatisfaction to me but even if I believed in it wholeheartedly I would still think living in a tent in the desert for 6 months a year was pretty ****e!!!
I am not keen to get killed thousands of miles away from my family, just war or not! if that makes me a coward so be it.:eek:

[toddbabe]

Smartchap wrote

Im finding myself doing more 14hr fridays, or 12hr night shifts more and more often, that i feel the will to live being sucked out of myself.

I often find myself working unsupervised on aircraft & on aircraft systems that i would like to be supervised incase things go wrong. Sometimes you get a NCO to work with, thats all depending on how spread we are.

Ive been on type now for 18 months ishy, i think ive messed up twice. 1st was a simple error with no incident (inexperienced NCO asked to do something, NC0 pressed wrong button), the 2nd ended up with an incident report.

I regularly moan at those above me about this, but then im often given an un-trained person to help me, thats all find and dandy, but isnt this the case of the blind leading the blind.

With all this hassle & cut-backs, i think to myself why dont i just leave the RAF & go work for BAE at the same pay.




This should have all of us extremely worried!!!!
You should raise a Murphy report or ahatever they are called to highlight this to the top level, at least then when they ignore it you have some documentary evidence to say I told you so.

[edwardspannerhands]

Your advice to Smartchap about raising a 'Murphy' report has been tried in the past. An individual on a Unit raised one, and those of us in the know could put Tail Numbers to the many instances mentioned on the form. IIRC Channel 4 got wind of it and even done a 'dispatches' type programme on it. Well, here we are 11 years (ish) down the line and what did it all achieve....hee-haw. No Money, no spares, and the light at the en o the tunnel is a 'kin train coming the other way!!:{

[OCCWMF]

Cuz they let me blow stuff up:}

Kidding. It's not the same as when my dad was in - the RAF I wanted to join, but I get to fly, travel the world and do things that civvies don't. I've tried an office and it drove me mad (don't deal with stupid people very well - "did you know that patronise means to talk down to....").:ugh: I've done an OOA and actually enjoyed it a great deal, except the exploding rain. I get paid an paltry sum for my skills (IMHO) but hey.

If all that changes, I'll let you know.

One more thing - if you don't like it, leave - it's just a job. We all carp on about the ethos and camaraderie but it's no different to any well motivated team of people. The RAF owes you nothing (it is, after all just an amorphous concept, not an actual thing) and you only owe it what you agreed at the beginning (and probably some capped actuals you lost the receipts for).:{ Actually, all that said, JPA is the one thing that is making me reconsider. :*

[It's Life Jim 208]

I've been reading PPRune for the last few years and have felt unable to post comments out of loyalty to the service. However.....today is my first day as a civilian for 32 years and I now feel I can comment freely.

I loved the RAF but it is slowly being murdered by lack of leadership from the very top, the first nail in the coffin for me was last year's CASWO's conference. God how I wish I had never gone, to essentially be called a liar by Mr Stirrup himself when I bought to his attention (at his request) details of a contract that was not being fulfilled by the service provider, was disgraceful.

Then came JPA which he had promised would not be unleashed upon us if it had errors in it, shameful.

The pay as you dine debacle (it will come back again I'm sure).

The ring fenced money for project SLAM that disapeared (why on earth would one of the senior officers in our discussion syndicate want me to bring this up with CAS in open discussion?).

Anyhow I used my option to 6 month PVR for over 30 years service. But the RAF had the last laugh as even though I did over 32 years service, JPAC/PSF or whoever is responsible have yet to send me my validictory/testimonial letter. So all I have to show for 32 years is a cheap enamel veteran's badge that the young Man Servs SAC tossed to me when I had the cheek to ask for it on my last working day.
The Civil Servants at Glasgow really don't give a monkies when I ask about pension details and my testimonial (there isn't a single serving officer in their chain of command, so they say).

I feel sad, let down, disgruntled, and disgusted that we are (were) so under-valued, it's not the RAF I knew, well goodbye, I won't hang around YOUR forum guys as I now have another life with an employer whom seems at least to value my existance and efforts.

To all of you who are still in, God Bless, stay safe and good luck...you need it.

An ex PFOM.

[threepointonefour]

Good luck Jim,

Let me know if you have any spare jobs!!

[JamesA]

rudekid,
Like number 2, I am also RAF resigned, have been for over twenty years, ex-Kipper and Shiny Fleets. Left for most of the reasons folks quit these days, even back then we had cuts which meant no spares, airfield guards, exercises, deployments as the nice places to stay had been closed,pay rises were dreams, (nothing is new in aviation). The one good thing was the index linked pension (understand there is still a contract out on the civil servant who thought that one up).
So, now as I sit in the company delay lounge waiting to get the mail to the boys and girls in the sandbox, I think I am quite entitled to browse the public 'Military only' site, having exhausted all the rumours of the day of the outside world. Also, just remember, we civvies pay your pittance salaries.
I am pleased to hear you enjoy service life, but one day you too will have to leave. Start preparing NOW, it is never too late.



Eight screws are better than four blow jobs.

(Old MR saying for the uninitiated)

[rudekid]

James(SuperTaxPayer)

Please read my posts again. No issue with ex-military blokes on the site. I still however wonder why people feel the need to contribute to a thread entitled "Are you staying" when they've patently already left. Similarly, I object to the increasing criticism of current service life from people who purport to be serving military. I KNOW some of these people have already left and misrepresent themselves. If you have a gripe or a criticism, then your opinion is perfectly valid, serving or not. People shouldn't pretend to be something they're not.

As I've already stated, I wouldn't feel I had the box seat on a thread entitled "How relevant was the kipper fleet in 1983" or "How much more than a peasant military officer do I earn" simply because I wasn't there or my view isn't valid.

Your views are welcomed here, I'm sure.

By the way, you must earn millions flying mail to the sandbox. Best I keep an eye out for you in the ST Rich List...Thanks for paying my pittance, you patronizing t@@t. :D

[rudekid]

Jim208

I think that you have been treated very poorly, by the sounds of it.

On the valedictory letters, I may be able to shed some light: I have recently written valedictory letters for people leaving and these should be sorted by your last unit. We wrote ours (even for guys who weren't technically entitled to them) and posted them, following up to make sure they'd been received. However, this was more than a couple of days after they'd left. Maybe that yours is on the way...ever hopeful.

We have had similar issues with our 'leavers' with JPAC. The only help I can offer is that you should copy the Air Sec and your local MP into any correspondence. Seemed to work for our guys, whose snags have been resolved in reasonable time.

[Confucius]

As a Nav who's got PAS it seemed daft to leave and work for a living.

[threeputt]

I left, in 2005, after 38.5 years. Official letter plus a hand written note from my old pilot, who was previously my AOC, duly turned up about 3 months later. Just wait it will come eventually, some things take time. :)
3P

[threepointonefour]

As a Nav who's got PAS it seemed daft to leave and work for a living.


As a nav who turned down PA, I feel I'm leaving in order to get a living ....

There is a common misconception the aircrew (esp PA) pay is pretty good. Not for your accrued expertise, and what you do it isn't. I heard a primary school teacher on the radio last week complaing about his excessive work and he only got, wait for it, £35k. Not a Hd, just a teacher! There is money out there, and jobs too.

Take the mick all you guys want, but as much fun as it's been (and believe me, I've done some v cool things), I couldn't see myself as a nav for another 17 yrs .... especially in this political climate.

[Big Bear]

I'm staying, I have no choice until the return of service for my APET is complete, once it is...I'm gone.

Why? because I don't feel valued, because I don't have any say in my destiny, and most of all because promotion is dependant on getting the right words on your OJAR, whether you deserve them or not. There are too many people who get promoted simply because their spineless ROs produce a work of fiction instead of an honest report.

Bitter....you bet I am

Worried...no, the job offers from industry are piling up already. At least they know what I am worth!

[Junglie]

13 years in the Andrew, ticked all the boxes, all boxes now removed, nothing to stay for, last box i ticked said PVR next to it. Cheersen.
Let's hope i don't feel quite so undervalued in my next employment but then i don't suppose my next employer will spend £10 million to train me and then just write it off, that would be utterly ridiculous........:D :D :D

[jockspice]

Junglie
You could always go back to the Mk4! :ugh: :}

[C130 Techie]

29 years down and 9 to go.

Still enjoying most of it at the moment. Even with an OOA looming again.

I still believe that I have something to offer although I am probably mis- employed at the present.

The money is OK, the job is OK, the social life and cameraderie is good.

The bullsh1t and constant change is still just about tolerable.

When any of the above change it will be time to go and preparations for that day are well in hand.

[TonkaEngO]

To all of the 'not the RAF I joined' brigade, if life for you 'in' is that bad then why not leave now? Yes things are tight at the mo' - I've done my share of OOAs etc etc over the last 26 years, and was in the Gulf on yet another 4 monther last year, but do not be too hasty in jumping ship. Things in BAES (and others) land are not all rosy - health care registration/no access to free sports facilities/lack of flexibility to family considerations etc etc. I still love the job and the buzz that it gives - and I can honestly say that in many respects - but not all - I am very glad that 'its not the RAF I joined'.

[bayete]

I had been asking for a PC for years and been told no, until suddenly with 2 yrs to go to my SSC exit they said yes.
Excellent I thought until I saw the terms....18/40!!
When I asked why, I was told all new commissions were now on 18/40 terms and not 16/38 (in line with the new pension scheme).
I thought the C in SSC stood for commission so therefore not a new commission just a change in exit date!
It was too late for me to change to the new pension scheme (not that I would have anyway), and so I would remain pension able at 38 but would be signed on until 40. If I wanted to get my pension at 38 I would have to PVR and take a cut in gratuity and pension.
Am I just being cynical or did they wait to offer a PC in order to keep me an extra 2 years......oh wait I'm out of here bye bye and they have lost 5 years possible extra service.
And also for many of the reasons already stated above.
Now that the decision to go has been made it's a load of my mind and I feel quite free.

[Tourist]

Just a thought.

All of you that are going, would you mind just pi55ing off and stop whingeing about it.

As anybody who has ever worked in the retail business will tell you, "its not the ones who complain you have to worry about, its the ones who stay quiet but never come back"

Wise words

[Axel-Flo]

HMMMMMM let me think about your observations for a while.

Nope I just find your attitude somewhat naive. The ammassed years served by posters here can not just be disregarded and too often the very people we work with who are chasing promotion are the actual ones who should never be promoted. I'm a lifer (I guess) 25 yrs done and still doing it. But I certainly have sympathiies with the comments posted. They were not saying you were doing a crap job. (mind you just cos your paranoid it doesn't mean the worlds not against you):suspect:

Boy i wish this thing had a spell checker...AF!

[RileyDove]

As someone who left ten years ago - I have no valid reason to comment or indeed possible perception of what appears to be an alien RAF now to the one I was in. Sadly however I hear stories of complete ineptitude from friends who are still in - what appears to be a constant cutting of benefits and inability to make any decisions which will give the RAF an effective fleet to sustain operations.
All this revolves around the same old problems. A command structure that has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo whilst the very people who are on the front line getting the jets in the air and maintaining them are cut savagely. Coupled with this is a procurement procedure that seems to be almost incapable of getting anything right - imagine if we had a similar degree of urgency in 1939!
I am very grateful for those who are currently serving their country and paying for it with their lives in some cases - I am however incensed at the
circumstances that appear to be resulting in large numbers of servicemen
leaving early at huge cost to the taxpayer in terms of training replacements for reasons that seem to be able to be addressed easily.