V-Force dispersal query

[Jackonicko]

V Force dispersal

In the early years of the V-Force, it relied on the concept of dispersing aircraft to outlying aerodromes to escape the effects of an enemy attack on their main bases, and to allow the most rapid reaction to a scramble by ensuring that there would not be huge ‘queues’ of aircraft waiting for take off.

These dispersal airfields were upgraded to allow V-bomber operations (Tarrant Rushton, for example, had a taxy loop added to allow V-bombers to backtrack, rather than use the ancient and narrow taxyways), with an ORP (Operational Readiness Platform) built adjacent to the main runway to allow aircraft to taxy straight onto the runway from ‘scramble’ and then perform a minimum interval stream take off.

It has usually been said that there were 36 such V-bomber bases in the late 1950s (including the ten Class 1 airfields), reducing to 26 by 1962.

36 airfields, each with four V-bombers, would make some sense – equating to the 144 warheads (and 144 carriers) planned for Bomber Command pre-Skybolt.

But, the numbers don’t add up.

In his tome ‘RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces’ Humphrey Wynn lists nine Class 1 V-Bomber airfields and 27 Dispersal airfields in 1962 – so far so good – but lists 22 of the dispersal fields as having provision for just two V-Bombers, and omits Marham (a Class 1 station), Kemble, Shawbury, Tarrant Rushton, and Aldergrove from the list altogether.

That would accommodate 100 V-bombers (56 + 44), so where would the other 44 go?

We have fragmentary details of who went where before 1966 (10 Squadron to Boscombe, 83 to Leeming, 148 to Tarrant Rushton), when the situation seems to have been that:

Cottesmore's freefall Vulcan B.Mk 2s used Honington and Leconfied as 'near dispersals', and Ballykelly*, Leconfield, Leeming, Leuchars, and Pershore as 'distant' dispersals (eg: 20 aircraft plus those at Cottesmore), while Scampton's Blue Steel Vulcan B.Mk 2s used Bedford* and Coningsby as 'near dispersals', and Boscombe, Kinloss*, and Lossie as 'distant' dispersals (16 aircraft plus those at Scampton). Waddintgton, meanwhile used Finningley and Marham as 'near dispersals' and Brawdy, Filton, Manston, Macrahanish, Valley and Wattisham as 'distant' dispersals (20 aircraft plus those at Waddington), while Wittering’s Blue Steel Victors used Coltishall, Gaydon and Wyton as ‘near’ dispersals and just St Mawgan* as a ‘distant’ (14 aircraft plus those at Wittering).

Can anyone add/correct anything?

Class 1
(all capable of accommodating four QRA Vulcans)
Coningsby
Cottesmore
Finningley
Gaydon
Honington
Marham (not according to Wynn!)
Scampton
Waddington
Wittering
Wyton


Dispersal
(two QRA V-Bombers each, except where asterisked, where there could be four QRA aircraft)
RAF Aldergrove (not according to Wynn!)
RAF Ballykelly*
RAE Bedford *
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Brawdy
Bruntingthorpe (use as dispersal ended 1966)
RAF Burtonwood * (use as dispersal ended 1966)
RAF Coltishall
RAF Cranwell (use as dispersal ended 1966)
RAF Elvington (use as dispersal ended 1966)
Filton
RAF Kemble (not according to Wynn!)
RAF Kinloss*
RAF Leconfield
RAF Leeming
RAF Leuchars
RAE Llanbedr (use as dispersal ended 1966)
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Lyneham
RAF Machrihanish
RAF Manston
RAF Middleton St. George (use as dispersal ended 1966)
Pershore
RAF St. Mawgan *
Prestwick (use as dispersal ended 1966)
RAF Shawbury (not according to Wynn!)
Stansted
Tarrant Rushton (not according to Wynn!)
RAF Valley
RAF Wattisham
RNAS Yeovilton

[teeteringhead]

Ignore Ratty, Jacko, he's only young and will learn.

Shawbury was certainly a dispersal airfield, which I understand was the reason for the southern runway extension - south of the present lazy lane. That was definitely the way it was put in the Staish's presentation the last time I heard it. ;)

It also required a new (the present) ATC Tower, as the old one (the present Brown House) couldn't see the new threshold of the northerly runway.....

[Fly380]

Butterworth.:bored:

[FJJP]

Leeming had a full V-Force dispersal site on the west side of the airfield. It could take 5 Vulcans on the dispersal hard standing and 1 on a loop at the end of the runway. There were 5-man accomodation caravans, shower/toilet block, recreational area, ops/planning room and kitchen and dining room. And the local pub over the fence and 500 yards down the road!

The site was regularly used for Sqn dispersal exercises, as well as those triggered by Group and STC. The dispersal ops, station ops and ATC were all wired up to the Bomber Controller.

[Kitbag]

With so many posts in a similar vein I'm beginning to doubt it :hmm:

[Farfrompuken]

Tarrant Rushton?

Never heard of it before so had a look on t'interweb. www.local.live.com (best imagery).

You'd be forgiven in thinking that this place was shut post WW2, not V-Force days

Can't provide a link, sorry!

[TOPBUNKER]

Add Woodvale.

[chevvron]

Farnborough had a 'V bomber dispersal' pan on the south side. It's still there but the name has changed.]
Tarrant Rushton didn't close until late 70's. Looking at a satellite picture on Flashearth, you can see what looks like a 2 aircraft dispersal a the southern end of the long north - south runway

[Jackonicko]

"Farnborough had a 'V bomber dispersal' pan on the south side. It's still there but the name has changed."

Where?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Within the fence line, accessible from the runway.:}

[Jackonicko]

No sign of a V-bomber dispersal at Woodvale now, though?

Weren't the UAS/AEF sheds at Abingdon built on a V-Bomber pan, according to legend?

[tornadoken]

The numbers don't add up. Wynn requires the reader to hop about to get past the censor. (Do so and find such gems as that Blue Steel was inert at Feb.63 low-level Press display, and may never have been cleared for powered use in QRA P.458). Deployed Force was never 144: from 1/1/60 some (13/7/61, all) Marham/Valiants were NATO TBF. MBF's armed U/E never exceeded 40 BS+64 Yellow Sun 2; to March,62 up to 72 had US Project E weapons, not dispersible. Intent was to generate 75% of U/E: Wynn,P.338 reports a whole-Force Mickey Finn, 26-29/10/64 with 61 free-fall and 30 BS aircraft "available", 35/12 planned for dispersal to 25 sites - "the remainder were activated by personnel only". In the MAD shell-game we hoped to decoy much of the first strike, but could not tell that to the good burghers of Cambeltown. The distant sites were more Q than QRA.

[XV277]

If anyone has a spare hour or two to spend, here are some overheads of current and former bases to look for V Bomber dispersals!!

http://content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/

[LowObservable]

Not counting the underground runways housed in a former treacle mine in Tadley, just outside Basingstoke.

[Jackonicko]

Thought provoking stuff, Tornadoken

[BEagle]

Jacko - do your figures include the NEAF Strike Wing at Akrotiri? Before my time (yes, hard to believe, I grant you) as 35 were at Sunny Scampton when I was on the tin triangle.

My understanding was that the number of V-bomber squadrons peaked in January 1963 with no less than 22 squadrons:

Valiant: 18, 49, 90, 139, 148, 207, 214, 543
Victor: 10, 15, 55, 57, 100
Vulcan: 9, 12, 27, 35, 44, 50, 83, 101, 617

Not forgetting the Thor IRBM squadrons at Bardney, Breighton, Caistor, Carnaby, Catfoss, Coleby Grange, Driffield, Feltwell, Folkingham, Full Sutton, Harrington, Hemswell, Ludford Magna, Melton Mowbray, Mepal, North Luffenham, North Pickenham, Polebrook, Shepherds Grove and Tuddenham.

Quite some RAF. Of course there were also the numerous Canberra squadrons as well.......

[Clear Right,Px Good!]

Not counting the underground runways housed in a former treacle mine in Tadley, just outside Basingstoke.


LO,
Don't suppose you could tell me what the elevation of Tadley was?

Seriously, I nearly pi##ed my flying suit when I read that one, wouldn't be the first time Ihear you wonder !

Humour aside, Jackanicko, are you writing a book on the subject?

CRPxGood

[Pontius Navigator]

Blue Steel was initally cleared for QRA with the 2E (or whatever the Equipment 3 code was) in the unpowered role. Later I believe it did stand QRA as a powered system but was planned for a reversionary popup attack. The additional range and defensive penetration ability meant that it was probably the prefered weapons system for Big M. I also believe that the Victor 2 was the better platform for that mission.

[Man-on-the-fence]

An interesting site that XV277 posted a link to. One thing to be aware of though. Some of the pictures supplies by Microsoft Virtual Earth are seriously out of date. Even more so when compared to Google Earth (which I reckon is about 2 to 4 years old)

So far I have spotted

Old Warden - 2 hangars short and no runway extension (5 years+)
Duxford - No Area 51 by the M11
Brize Norton - VC-10 K.2s on the ramp
Cottesmore - No aircraft and the Harrier Ramp still half built.
Benson - Bulldogs on the ramp
My House - No extension (at least 5 years ago)


I need to get out more

[ORAC]

Some of the pictures supplies by Microsoft Virtual Earth are seriously out of date. That's OK, I don't think they've built many V force dispersals of late..... :}

[threeputt]

On my first tour in the RAF I was an Air Trafficker at Lyneham. In 1968, whilst on local control, I remeber being given notice that an Exercise Mick/Micky Finn had been called and we were to expect some Vulcan aircraft within a half an hour. Having never even seen a real Vulcan, let alone had one anywhere near Lyneham, during my tour this was a bit exciting I can tell you. First ac cleared to land and carry's out an interesting manoever, which I came to recognise later on in a future career, by adopting a severe nose up attitude! Keen young chap that I was, I sounded the crash alarm and the entire fire team leaped into their charges and asked where the "practice crash" was??? "Vulcan tailscrape, RW 25" say's I "Roger" say's the fire chief and off they go in pursuit of said V- bomber which is still very nose up and sending up a healthy stream of sparks. " Lyneham, Mission XXXX request taxy instruction" "Roger, XXXX taxy to the ORP located to the west of ATC, crash crews are approaching from the East." There then followed a short, sharp verbal exchange between sprog ATC officer and Vulcan captain on the merits of aerodynamic braking! Three other Vulcans followed on within the next 20 mins. Scrambled the next day and I never saw one again until I arrived at Scampton as a u/t Nav Rad, on 230 OCU, some 5 years later!:ouch:

Anyway point of the post is that Lyneham had a four ac ORP, which can be seen fairly clearly in XV277's list, not two as in your original post jackonicko.

3P

[Green Meat]

Topbunker

Woodvale? Are you perchance having us on? T'would be a brave soul who brings in or takes out a loaded Vulcan, surely?

Besides, the locals would only complain about the noise of the Soviet retaliatory strike :ok:

[ZH875]

Anyway point of the post is that Lyneham had a four ac ORP, which can be seen fairly clearly in XV277's list, not two as in your original post jackonicko.

3P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/Lyneham_Dispersal.jpg

Clearly shows the four aircraft dispersal site on the lower left hand side, this is still used by aircraft from time to time.

[newt]

I just knew it would not be long before BEagle appeared!! Do you guys put these V Force threads on here just to keep him amused?

[SRAM]

Careful! We are all over the place.

[ACW418]

Did an interesting dispersal to Llanbedr on 5/6 Jan 65 in XM597. Ex Kinsman. Had to land by 1700 as they let the sheep back onto the airfield then. I can't quite remember but there was at least two aircraft from Cottemore there, possibly three.

ACW

[NRU74]

..... those welsh lads didn't like to be away from their sheep after dark

[XV277]

An interesting site that XV277 posted a link to. One thing to be aware of though. Some of the pictures supplies by Microsoft Virtual Earth are seriously out of date.



My House - No extension (at least 5 years ago)


The one of mine (just off one of the 'airfields') is at least 7 years old because I know when they were taken! Most of the high-ish definition stuff is from Get Mapping's Millenium map, and was taken in 1999

[MightyGem]

No sign of a V-bomber dispersal at Woodvale now, though?

We have a copy of "RAF Woodvale-The First Fifty Years" and there's no mention of V bombers in it. The only mention of jet aircraft operating from here is of Meteors in the early fifties.

[Soddit]

There were certainly Meteors at Woodvale in 1965.Used to look enviously at them when attending AEF ( No 8 or 10??) every term for an hour in Chipmunks.

[BEagle]

A useful contribution, newt. But Red Ken would love you....


Do you chaps mean Woodford, not Woodvale?

[SRAM]

You are right 418, Llanbedr was a Cottesmore dispersal. 1965/66 seems to have been a particularly nervous time as my records show dispersals to Ballykelly, Valley, Pershore, Yeovilton and Llanbedr.

Apart from the sheep I remember Llanbedr being a bit short, nobody wanting to do a 'stream' away from base.More work for the Co-pilot and AEO!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

ADVERTISING

Woodford theoretically could have done it but it would have been off RWY 08. It would have been a relatively short taxi from the apron opposite Flight Sheds. It would have been a hell of a long taxi to RWY 26, though, with a long enter and backtrack from 02/20; one at a time.

They would have looked good arriving over Commieland with "Rag Rag" sprayed over them! courtesy of the students of Manchester University.

[TOPBUNKER]

ADVERTISING
Apparently the runway was specifically extended for V Force Ops.
Allegedly it was offered up to the Spams for similar use.
However, their reply went along the lines of "Thanks for the offer but we'd rather divert to North Africa than land on 6000' of tarmac!"
Please excuse the apparently/allegedly caveats - Mr Ferguson's research - not mine (and my befuddled corpuscles)!

[Green Meat]

Yes, PJ, I thought my faculties had not deserted me.

IIRC, the runway at WV was extended for Meteor operations whilst T.7s and F.4s were based there prior to their move over the water, some time before V-force was in full service.

I shall ask the author when I see him!

GM

[scorpion63]

Cranfield was used by Cottesmore as dispersal for QRA

[trap one]

You might want to add Filton to the list, if you look there is a 4 AC Pan with loop situated just north of and direct Taxiway to the Main East-West, also to the old North-South secondary which I think would have been a bit short for FUW ops.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Thorney Island??? I quote "Higher Authority" who is NEVER wrong. She lived in the vicinity in the early '60s and remembers Vulcans visiting.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fv, TI certainly stirs the memory.
ACW418, about that time at Llanbedr on of the 12 Sqn crews launched and departed sharpish through the hangar gap. Unfortunately the gee forces prevented the nose oleo retraction. The duty pilot, off another sqn, IX think, reported the Captain for dangerous flying.
I have been in touch with said Captain a couple of years ago on a Vulcan forum. Unlike other spirited flying this incident did not seem to dent his career as he became OC C Sqn although one could surmise that a move to Victor BS was not promotion :}

What about Carnaby?

Chivenor also rings a bell.

[SRAM]

FV you are right, She is never wrong: Nov 27th 1967 about 1630 in 534.

[pulse1]

I joined FRL in 1966 and, although the airfield was in regular use by their Meteors and Canberras, it was no longer in use as a diversion for V- bombers. It had been used by Valiants well before then.

I imagine that Sir Alan Cobham was very keen to maintain this function for Tarrant as it would have helped him win the famous Critchel Down case which led to Tarrant being restored to agricultural use after 1970. As the land was no longer being used for the "defence of the realm", Lord Cranborne won it back.

[XV277]

Interesting that you can still see the pan location at Tarrant Rushton in the overhead, and in spite of all the re-development for the BL test tracks, you can still see them at Gaydon as well.

[Jackonicko]

We're up to ten Class 1s and perhaps as many as 39 V-Bomber dispersal airfields......

So much for 36 including the Class 1s.

[Tim McLelland]

Oh dear - just when you think things are starting to make sense, somebody comes along and shoots-down some more "facts" !
I had foolishly assumed that Humphrey's listing of dispersals was correct but to be fair I hadn't bothered to check, even though I'd already spotted some mistakes in his book. Despite that book being an excellent publication, it still seems to suffer from the odd glitch and he also has a strange habit of contradicting himself in parts.
The dispersal list is interesting and I hadn't noticed that Shawbury wasn't mentioned, even though the dispersal pan is still there to this day. It suggests that (once again) everything you ever thought you knew, is wrong! Aaargh!
If anyone can add any more definitive info on this subject, please do, as it would be nice to clear-up this saga before I finish my book:)

[Green Flash]

Given it's relatively mahoosive runway was Stornoway ever an option?

[Jackonicko]

Indeed, Tim.

It's not even as if one could assume that there is a core list of airfields (as listed by Wynn) that were officially V-Force dispersals, with others that happened to be able to host them.

That list of his is wrong from top to bottom - omitting Marham from the Class Ones, giving too few four aircraft dispersal airfields, and missing others entirely, while including some (Stansted, for example, and perhaps Bruntingthorpe) which don't seem to have been used at all.

[scorpion63]

And what about Luqa and Akrotiri, although Luqa had no ORP as such the Sunspot dispersal was used as an FOB and for QRA exercises.

[Jackonicko]

What indeed?

Even before the Akrotiri Vulcan wing, surely there were plans to use some of those NEAF/MEAF bases?

Gib, El Adem, Hal Far, Luqa, Akrotiri, Muharrag, Masirah.....

[Jobza Guddun]

Was Stornoway not extended for the F3 as an FOB for 11 Sqn?

Why does Cranwell have a bomber dispersal on the east side near Rauceby Lane? Maybe the Tutors operate off it now?

[Pontius Navigator]

I think Cranwell was a Valiant dispersal. We were there in 1966 for Exercise Unison. We used the 'old' dispersal buildings and on the wall was a box, unplugged, that looked like the standard 'bomber' box connected to the bunker at High Wycombe.

We plugged it in.

It obligingly went 'bleep' and continued to do so every 30 seconds as it sent out its comms security check.

[BOAC]

Could somebody settle a long-standing query please? Was Porto Santo a dispersal too? It seems to have the right ORP areas.

[papajuliet]

Tim McC - have I missed something? What's the book that you're writing?

[green granite]

Bedford was a 4 A/C dispersal the pans are at the Eastern end of 27.

The local pub (the Fox) closed not long after the last dispersal :hmm:

Now sadly defunct :{

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/orangeherald/rae.jpg

[ZH875]

Ah Bedford, where the FS (D*** G*****) would always say (when stopped at the back gate) "No one get off the bus" as it was always raining we had no intention of getting off.

Also remember the 'Honey Wagon' would always turn up and empty the bogs at lunch time, the smell of Racasan, Sh1t, and crap food.

Pity about the fox though, IIRC rumour has it that the landlord would always ring the sqn up to warn us of a no notice exercise, due to MOD having to warn him to stock up on beer, due to a previous det drinking the pub dry and upsetting the locals.

[Yellow Sun]

Does anyone recall the "Bedford Incident"? It was 1971 I think. At the culmination of a force dispersal exercise the scramble message contained "exempt Bedford". Naturally no one thought anything of it, went off to fly the briefed sortie and recover to base. A couple of days later I was in the Ops room at Waddington when the bomber box bleeped. I thought it was going to be a routine broadcast; but no; it was the Bomber Controller bringing Bedford up to RS05. This was shortly after Horsley became AOC 1Gp and apparently had noticed that the requirement was to maintain dispersed operations for 28 days. He decided that the capability should be exercised and the Bedford crews drew the short straw. At the time Bedford was a Scampton dispersal.

YS

[green granite]

Pity about the fox though, IIRC rumour has it that the landlord would always ring the sqn up to warn us of a no notice exercise, due to MOD having to warn him to stock up on beer, due to a previous det drinking the pub dry and upsetting the locals.

The locals certainly knew when "them bloody noisey things" were comming :hmm:

I seem to remember all hell letting loose locally after Bedford scrambled at about 0300 one day :eek:

[Yellow Sun]

I think Cranwell was a Valiant dispersal. We were there in 1966 for Exercise Unison. We used the 'old' dispersal buildings and on the wall was a box, unplugged, that looked like the standard 'bomber' box connected to the bunker at High Wycombe.


In the mid 70's Cranwell was a planned dispersal airfield for a USAF detachment. IIRC the op order called for support of up to 6 x F4s. I seem to remember that this task was cancelled before 1980.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

Even before the Akrotiri Vulcan wing, surely there were plans to use some of those NEAF/MEAF bases?

Gib, El Adem, Hal Far, Luqa, Akrotiri, Muharrag, Masirah.....

Gibraltar was 'too difficult' and not used routinely by the V-force.
El Adem was a staging posts and also an FOL for use on the El Adem and Tarhuna ranges. It was too far forward to use as an operational base.
Hal Far was Navy
Takali had closed
Safi was an MU
Luqa was a NATO/CENTO base and used by up to 16 V-bombers. Initially Valiants, then Vulcan Mk 1 from the Waddington Wing and later the Mk 2. It was used, as was El Adem, for the Libyan ranges. It was too close to UK to be useful as a staging post.
Akrotiri was used as a base for the Libyan Ranges. It was too far forward for operational use by the V-force who would have overloaded the base if it had filled up with shorter range aircraft.
Nicosia had been used before Akrotiri opened.
Muharraq was a staging post.
Masiah was a CENTO dispersal for Vulcans from Akrotiri.
Mashad was a CENTO disperal
Merhabad was a CENTO dispersal
Peshaw was a CENTO dispersal

[Tim McLelland]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned but dispersal airfields are shown in a book ADVERTISING..He mentions on page 84 that there were 26 dispersals plus the ten main bases.ORP were found on all but six of them.

I did a book on the same subject (ADVERTISING) a good few years after that old Brookes book. Although it was by no means perfect, I think it was rather better, but the saga of the dispersal airfields is one which has never been questioned until now. Clearly, the list in Humphrey's book isn't accurate and I should have bothered to check this sooner (I foolishly assumed it was correct, even though other snippets in the book are also patently wrong).
I guess the only way we might get something close to a definitive list would be if any former crews can specifically name any airfields and whether they hosted two or four aircraft, and whether they were Valiants, Vulcans or Victors. We might just be able to clarify the situation once and for all? (boy, am I an optimist!).:)

[Tim McLelland]

Tim McC - have I missed something? What's the book that you're writing?

A new and very large book on the Vulcan. It will hopefully be the "last word" on the subject although I've long since accepted that no book is ever perfect! I believe some other books are also in the pipeline but they ain't gonna be as big as the one I'm doing - it could double as a door stop!

So, any anecdotes, photographs, information... anything at all... all contributions gratefully received!

[BEagle]

Actually, I reckon Andy's book was far better researched - and benefitted from his experience interviewing many senior RAF officers of the period.

A revised edition, including de-classified material not available when he wrote it, would be very welcome.

[Tim McLelland]

You think? I wasn't particularly impressed with it even when it was first published - that was why I wrote my own book subsequently. I don't think there'd be much point in updating it as the best you could hope for would be the same book but with information drawn from the much-mentioned HMSO book.

I fear that the only way anyone could produce anything which really breaks new ground on the V-Force as a whole, would be if they were prepared to spend a very long time wading through all the files at the PRO. It would take an awful lot of time and a lot of expense unless you happened to live near Kew, and given the pitiful amount of money that aerospace publishers pay these days (you'd get a much, much better proportional pay deal at McDonalds), I can't see it happening!:)

[chevvron]

Stronoway was MUCH shorter in the 60s; it was only extended in about early 70s for Buccanneer dets.

[BEagle]

For a (rather poor) map of the V-bomber bases, Thor bases and V-bomber dispersal bases, see http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/F21E81DC_E902_D3CE_488720FE8488434D.pdf page 234 (or 8 of 40 in adobe).

[cheese bobcat]

Yellow Sun is right about the 28 day dispersal at Bedford. It was a 617 do and 4 of us were sent to Kinloss for around 5 days whilst the other 4 went to Bedford for 28. Much fun was had watching the BOAC (?) guys doing circuits in their (then new) 747s and giving scores for their landings using a large board a la ice skating.

The most embarassing part though was back at the ranch, at Scampton. In those days us chaps held the purse strings, and not many wives had joint accounts at the bank with their husbands. Therefore, as they were away for nearly a month, there was no way these poor lasses could get at any money. Of course, in those days we weren't paid very much but those of us lucky enough not to be at Bedford lent them money, just so they could feed the kids! Ah! Those were the days!

Cheese Bobcat

[tornadoken]

1. 1955: Strategic Force is to be Mks.2 Vs with ASMs, ahead of Mks.1 with Yellow Sun, to be replaced c.1965 by Blue Streak IRBM. Dispersal as core, 27 sites, as a normal pattern of operation, in 4 a/c Flights: purpose is to decoy and survive Bison on Main Bases.

2. 1958: we start digging ORPs. We gain access to US atomic Art and Article. Thor IRBM on way to RAF. US learns how to detect ICBM launch, so BMEWS is funded to be up c.1962. (1959: add Fylingdales - part-up 17/9/63). No more threat of bolt from the blue. US Bombs reduce our buy of Blue Danube/Red Beard/Yellow Sun(now, Mk.1); they need indispersible GI custodials. Treasury asks why pour for a few home-builds? Digging slows.

3. 1959/60: IRBM accuracy grows. Blue Streak is vulnerable, so must be silo-sited: even more delay/cost: deleted 13/4/60. RAF mans surface-Thor from 4/6/60 till USSR IRBMs are up. Force is intended to be 72 Vulcan 2, each 2xSkybolt, ahead of Vulcan 1/Victor 1/2 (ex-B.Steel) with YS2. 207 Sqdn Valiant stands up 1 QRA aircraft (Marham was Saceur's not MBF's, until mid-65). Brass suggests extending the idea to MBF. Treasury suggest we are confused between QRA and dispersal, and that in tension ("we will bury you") to Move Out is provocative (=rail mobilisation,1914). Brass say "use it or lose it".

4. 1961: UK decides that survivability lends credibility to a posture of "no first use". So: a QRA element at Main Base (1 Jan.'62, 1 a/c p.Sqdn.at 15 mins.); 75% U/E generation within 24hr.; a dispersal element. US weapons gone from MBF 17/3/62, so whole Force can disperse. Digging resumes.

5. 21/12/62: delete Skybolt, insert Polaris/SSBN. ex-UK deep nuclear strike deleted with TSR.2, 6/4/65. Many sites de-activated in 1966 as we run down MBF.

That's why.

[Argus]

A small but nevertheless important error of fact.

During the Cold War, in the days of the 'V' Force, Lossiemouth and Brawdy were Royal Naval Air Stations (HMS FULMAR and GOLDCREST respectively), and not under light blue domination. By the time both reverted to the RAF, the nuclear deterrent had passed to the RN.

I recall that the control towers at both establishments were possessed of the standard 'black box' with the characteristic 30 sec bleep. On a 'Mickey Finn' or similar, it would burst into life, assailing those within earshot with the cut glass vowel Oxbridge tones of 'The Bomber Controller'. It was reassuring to us lesser mortals, to know that execution of mutually assured distruction would be accompanied by a narrative from one who occupied a high office, deep underground, safe from radiation exposure, and who spoke 'proper like'.

Definitely no 'scouse gits' at High Wycombe in those days!

[Blacksheep]

We didn't disperse only on Micky Finns, we used to exercise individual dispersals to keep the equipment - which was Bomber Command property - operational. I remember going to Brawdy/HMS Goldcrest for a week on such an exercise. It was an FAA training station so there was lots of Jolly Jack Tar/Popeye the Sailorman stuff designed to confuse us landsmen.

Our aircraft were parked on the ORP at one end of the Flight Deck and our barrack room was a messdeck. The OOW would come round in the evening to ensure that all deadlights and watertight doors were secured. One was supposed to be either in best blue and standing by your bed or else in bed, fast asleep. Being Bomber Command we didn't do either and sat around the table in our shreddies as usual, playing three card brag and singing "Do your balls hang low..." or some other jolly sea shanty.

If you walked across the grass between the blocks and the NAAFI - SOP at Waddington - some idiot would scream "Man Overboard!" and throw a lifebelt at you. The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense. One lunchtime the off duty shift decided to go out for a pint and ploughman's instead of eating at the galley. There was no jolly boat and in any case we needed a chit from the bosun or whoever. We went back up the road and returned in formation, walking backwards - In!-Out!-In!-Out! - as we rowed our jolly boat out of the gate.

I reckon the Skipper of HMS Goldcrest was glad to see the back of us...

A couple of questions for ex-matelots. Do you also have a miserable boat? what happened to the Master at Arms's legs? why doesn't the gunner's mate have a gun? We tried asking but nobody would tell us. ;)

[Argus]

I see. The RAF sent the erks to do the work, play up and and generally give the Crabs a bad name, while the light blue 'hossifers' got the cushy number.

[Blacksheep]

while the light blue 'hossifers' got the cushy number.Drinking Pink Gin in the wardroom might be thought of as a cushy number, but there were three backseaters 'pulling' in our jolly boat that day. :p

[Argus]

Drinking pink gin in the Wardroom might be thought of as a cushy number

When in Rome ... and you didn't mention the tot. In the 60s, RNAS Brawdy was home to two Hunter T8/GA11 squadrons engaged in advanced flying training, plus a front line AEW squadron. There wasn't much time for lunchtime "sippers", except for those indolent visitors "maintaining" public property, and who had nothing better to do than to generally reinforce the 'Andrew's adverse perception of the Crabs.

There were three back seaters 'pulling' in our jolly boat that day

What, in public! Oviously not career officers schooled in the ways of Lord Trenchard's General List Commissioned Crab. South Cerney has a lot to answer for!

[sharmine]

Blacksheep

"The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense."

Landlubber! Surely every one knows that your 'Jolly Boat' was actually a 'liberty boat' and that if you wern't there at the times that it went then you didn't get liberty (shore leave). Oh yes, even land based 'ships' gave shore leave.

Back on track. Yeovilton's V bomber dispersal was pretty well organised, had 2 dispersals on the south side of runway 27 where the ski jump now sits and had its own accomodation blocks. Only ever remember it being used once sometime in 1968 I seem to remember for a couple of Vulcans. Remember a 'tilly' full of blighters turning up at the galley for scran. They would have been better off taking the liberty boat down to the 'Dolphs' or 'Lamb & Lark' for a ploughmans and scrumps.:ok:

Sharmine

[chevvron]

Always thought 'Jolly Boats' were those sampans in Hong Kong harbour containing 'entertainment' for visiting personnel.

[Blacksheep]

AH! A liberty boat. No wonder we had a problem! :ugh:
What, in public! Oviously not career officers schooled in the ways of Lord Trenchard's General List Commissioned Crab. South Cerney has a lot to answer for!They had to get in our boat. It was the only one leaving at the time... :rolleyes:

What I couldn't understand is why we had to take a jolly liberty boat at all. The port side of HMS Goldcrest was firmly secured to the dock. When we returned from lunch we simply walked aboard up the gangplank. We'd have saluted the quarterdeck too - if we only knew where it was. ;)

This is the bomber contwoaw-laar. Awert cwews to weadiness zewo two!...Dive, dive dive.

[forget]

I've posted this before - but with mention of Naval practices on shore bases, man overboard etc, I can't resist.

A 1969 detachment Vulcan detachment to RAAF Darwin -

Friday night was dance night at a Royal Australian Navy Sigs base, about twenty miles ‘down the track’. Lots of Aussie Wrens. Name of RAN Coonawarra I think. Time came to leave and we were heading for the Main Gate to pick up a taxi. Strolling past the swimming pool (did he fall or was he pushed) I ended up in the water. Not much of an issue, warm water, cheap watch, and dressed in Darwin Rig of shirt, shorts and long socks. I hauled myself out and we continued towards the gate.

The floodlit Guard Room, or Naval Bridge I suppose, was ahead of us, three stories high, and narrow. As I took a short cut across the grass a naval voice yelled from the top story - ‘Man overboard’. The navy do this on shore establishments when people walk on the grass - don’t ask. Terrific I thought, he can’t possibly know I’m dripping wet - this is a gift!

I climbed up the outside stairs and into the top floor where the Duty Officer, the shouter, stood on the far side of a very highly polished floor. I walked slowly across the floor the better to cover it with the dripping water that clearly caused him some pain, looked him in the eye and said - ‘Bloody magic. How’d you do that?’

One RAN Duty Officer in serious stitches!

[Argus]

If memory serves me correctly, Brawdy's V Bomber dispersal was on the western side of the threshold of runway 21; and Lossie's was on the western side of the threshold of runway 23.

Both were relatively self contained. Lossie's (and I think Brawdy's) had the standard deep water filled pits, into which the Blue Steel missile could be jetisioned in the event of propellant problems.

As a master diversion airfield, the Lossie dispersal was also used occasionally for QRA. During the 60s, I recall seeing Lightnings, F104s, F105s and even the odd F4 gracing the Morayshire countryside.

[tantalite]

I spent two years on Dispersal. Was at Machrihanish for a year, Valley the same and Leuchars as a relief prior to being posted to the best dispersal of all...Goose Bay.

As a Gen Fitt, life was boring but there was a certain excitemnet factor. At Macrihanish we all lived in our own accomodation. Sgt MT Fitter had quarters right behind our ops room,mess, kitchen, comm cen etc. We had everything. I had a bunk in the barrack block nearest our facilities sharing a 20ish room block with an evil smelling innebriate E Fitt (G).

We did little, all had our own offices at the tech site, I was 18 for Gods sake, had an inventory complete with nuclear weapon etc. Education officer for a camp commandant, excellent guy. Golf course off the airfield, 1968 the bestest summer where we were anyway, US Navy so cheap fags, booze and food. An excellent catering officer, we all shared the same food! a bit overbudget which was resolved eventually. Defueled Shackleton allowed us 100LL with a bit of brake fluid to tone it down courtesy of the MT section, they can't be held to account 40 years on!

I had the phone from Waddo Ops through to my room, knew when the Mickey Finn was coming 'cos a nice WRAF in Ops would do a few phone checks just prior to it so when the call came we were ready and accepted our pair of 'Vs', activated the dispersal for the forward party, cooks, comm ops etc prior to the whistling tit bringing the main crew. Great stuff enjoyed it all.

Valley I don't recall any excersise but the SWO did catch my colleagues down the beach with our own custom designed 100 yd telephone extension, me I was bubbling withn the sub-aqua club or blagging a flight in a Gnat, a Hunter or a Whirlwind.

Leuchars, well did a Taceval there and flew back to Waddo on the Argosy only to be stopped by 43 Sqdn (The Fighting Cocks) as we kidnapped their Cock and bodge taped them to The Fighting Cooks!!

Happy days. I expect in the event of the real thing we may have been eliminated and never received the 'Vs' we were supposed as the Ruskies may have known of our exsistence!!

I enjoyed every minute of it, got a COs rec and a fitters course out of it, life is different now.

[Oldlae]

In 1959 or '60 I was a J/T Eng Fitt on ASF at Cottesmore servicng Victor B1's of 10 and 15 Sqns. I was sent with a Cpl to St Mawgan to replace an Alternator on one of the Victors on exercise from one of the squadrons, I think there were three. We flew down in a Varsity, only us two on board and it was impressive flying down the Bristol Channel and the coast. We worked until quite late and the Chiefy told us to take the next day off as the a/c would still be there. Getting up late we caught the bus to Newquay making full use of the pubs. Arriving back on Camp after closing time the Victors had gone, did we feel stranded. After a day or so the Cottesmore Anson was sent to pick us up, luckily the Chiefy backed us up so we didn't get into trouble.
I don't know what Mawgan was designated for the V-Force.

[Lancelot37]

The Cottesmore Anson! I was at Cottesmore 59 to 61. I thought that the Anson was for the "sole use" of Groupie Johnnie Johnson, ex Battle of Britain pilot. You were in luck that he allowed its use. I heard that the M.O.D wanted it back to he told them to get lost.

[Oldlae]

It's too long ago, but maybe Johnnie had been promoted and moved on. I joined Stn Flt after that and the pilot that I remember flying the Anson drove an Austin Princess. Johnnie certainly didn't fly us back from Mawgan.

[Fareastdriver]

In the early sixties 3 Grp HQ was at Mildenhall. The AOC considered that the only way to arrive at one of his stations was down the runway centre line. When he visited Honington his Jaguar Mk7 driver would take him to his Anson and then belt the car all the way to Honington so it could meet him when he arrived.

[exgroundcrew]

When I was at RAF Honnington with 90 Sqn Valiants from 1961 until the fleet was grounded we always dispersed to RNAS Yeovilton on a regular basis until we converted to in-flight refuelling role. We never actually dispersed in anger and if I remember correctly it was normally for exercise Mayflight.
The normal overseas base for 90Sqn during such operations or exercise Sunspot was RAAF Butterworth.

[mstjbrown]

Tim Mc:-

Have just checked my logbook and found the first use of Bedford as a dispersal airfield by 57 Sqn (Victors) was 6 Mar 61. it had a four aircraft pan at the end of the r/w and we lived in rather odd caravans close to the a/c.

On one of the flyoffs from the dispersals the a/c were routed in a stream up the North Sea in a n/e direction and turned south not too far from Sweden.

One of the Sunday papers picked this up and created quite a furore about needless provocation of the Soviets.

[tantalite]

RNAS Yeovilton was taken over by Waddington as a dispersal, recall Wattisham, Brawdy, Valley, Manston, Leuchars, Machrihanish to be amonst the dispersals we had visited Wattisham and Manston in 1967 and served at Machrihanish 1968/69, I was the Gen Fitt had a ground leccy and an MT Fitt as permanent staff. What a life! I shut Machrihanish down being the last to leave with an MT Fitt Sgt Tug Wilson and a tear in my eye, we drove a land rover and a big yellow caravan back, night stopping in Carlisle en-route to Waddo, quick fitters course at Saints then did a year at Valley 1969/70 and then relieved at Leuchars for a month late 1970 before offing to the ultimate 'V' dispersal in the snow RAF(U) Goose Bay. What a life started off as an 18 year old SAC and finished up as a JT. Goose to Cranwell early 1972, very much of a culture shock... then out early 1973 thank you! Off to Rhodesia to renew the 44Sqdn friendship on to BAe in Saudi and now still dealing with MoD on a day to day basis.

[Fokkerwokker]

Fascinating (resurrected) thread.

I used to work in ATC at weekends at Woodvale in the 60s and don't recall any mention of it being a dispersal for the V-force. There again as a spotty faced college youth I probably didn't need to know!

I recollect the only runway lighting was goosenecks and certainly no ORPs.

Raises the question for me though; how much runway was needed to lift one of these beasts to go to work for the day with an ordinance load + round trip(?) fuel?

:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

The standard runway length was set at 9000 feet. In the late 50s- early 60s the Mark 1 aircraft would use much of that length. A fully laden Victor 1 in high temps with 21x1000lb of bombs used over 8000 feet.

A Valiant, carrying a 10000lb store would not have been far from that.

The Mark 2 Vulcan on the other hand, fully laden, could probably get off in well under 6000 feet IIRC.

[Fokkerwokker]

Ah!

So 'IF' Woodvale was indeed earmarked for such a task it would have only been the Vulcan blowing the caravan park away! Thinking back it seemed a tad short for the Meteor at times on a calm hot day.

Ta for the response.

FW

[mally35]

The main runway at Woodvale was and still is 5405 feet in length.
It would seem therefore to fail the main criteria as aforementioned.
FW; do you remember Bob W at WV?

[Fokkerwokker]

FW; do you remember Bob W at WV?

Yes indeed! Ended up at Speke ATC I believe? I refuse to call it JLI!!

Made many a mug of 'brickies tea' for him, Roger Wheeler, Jim Coulter and Jo the Meteor pilot (surname escapes me) in the WV tower.

Wonderful days!

Ooops....thread drift....sorry folks!

[Pontius Navigator]

FW, at the time it was too short for the Vulcan as well. A Mk 2 could use a 6000 foot strip but prefered longer. Cranwell was a Valiant dispersal at one point and that is about 6000 feet so that nails that one down.

[mally35]

FW PM me with you email or telephone number for a big surprise.

McF

[Once_an_Erk]

From my first Vulcan station (Coningsby) - did one dispersal to Burtonwood. Then from Scampton it was nominally Lossie, but Sys Fitters were then thin on the ground so I was sometimes the only one in the area and used to commute Lossie to the other Scampton disp - Kinloss, depending on where I was needed.
One day making my way along that coastal road in the fairy RVT I got a puncture - and no blasted spare! - had to walk about 5 miles to find a phone!

[Padhist]

I have read much in this thread about where could Vulcans disperse to. But no one seems to have given a thought to. How will they disperse in FOG?
I, amongst others carried out the very successful automatic landing trials on the Vulcan at Bedford. These were specifically designed to enable the Vulcan to fly to a designated airfield 'In any prevailing weather condition.'
I must however point out that on a visit to a Greenham Common airshow after I retired I was shown round the cockpit of a 50Sqdn Vulcan and when I remarked to the Flt Lt Pilot that I was pleased to note that his aircraft was equiped for Autolanding...He replied " Ah thats what those bits are for we never knew"
The Vulcan was impressive in the automatic mode As it was doing 90Knt approaches using Auto Throttle

[Pontius Navigator]

Padhist, AFAIK it was only Scampton that had the autoland. At Cottesmore we were rather envivous but I have to say we never diverted, even on Red, provided we were allowed a stab.

The Blue Star filling station on the A1 was one mile finals. The skipper reckoned that as long as he was at 300 feet, on heading, then we would land. We certainly had to do this one night, gin clear but the cockpit vis ws less than 2 miles. We had been pounding the circuit and collected cement dust from Ketton that fused on the gold-film heated windscreen. I can't recall whether it was SOP to switch it off at low level or to leave it on.

[Tim McLelland]

I would assume that dispersal in fog would never have been an issue. The decision to disperse the V-Force wouldn't have been taken as a last-minute option, therefore there would be sufficient time to take into account weather conditions and suitable locations depending on available aircraft, etc.

As for Woodvale, I thought we'd laid that one to rest? No, it wasn't a dispersal airfield!

[Pontius Navigator]

I would assume that dispersal in fog would never have been an issue. The decision to disperse the V-Force wouldn't have been taken as a last-minute option, therefore there would be sufficient time to take into account weather conditions

Tim, I think your assessment is wrong.

Main base generation - Alert Condition 3 - was seen as a relatively covert and non-escalator increase in readiness. The force was generated to 15 min readiness and held within the ring of steel.

OTOH Alert Condition 2 was an extremely tricky decision. Aircraft slated for dispersal were not fuelled with sufficient fuel for a war mission. The longer the force was retained at Alert Condition 2 the greater its chance of failure.

Alert Condition 1 was the ultimate increase in escalation but the force would not be cocked until aircraft were turned around at their dispersals. In exercises it was rare to be at Alert Condition 2 for more than 6 hours. Once sufficient aircraft were declared combat available the CinC would give the dispersal order with, presumably, the agreement of the PM and Sec State. A little factor such as fog would not have stopped him.

Well, that is my tak on the situation.

[Tim McLelland]

Fair point - if the decision to disperse had been made at a critical point in an escalating situation then weather conditions would have been irrelevant. What I meant was that if the decision to disperse had been made as part of the much-predicted gradual increase in tension (the theory being that dispersing the force sent a clear message) then there would have doubtless been sufficient time to take into account the conditions, availability of aircraft and dispersal bases, etc. But I quite agree that if the move had been taken in response to the possibility of an imminent attack, I don't suppose anyone would have been concerned about fog!

[Pontius Navigator]

Tim, at the time we are talking about there was no consideration of gradual it was pure trip wire.

The only consideration was Alert Condition 3 - covert - go for it - all eggs on one basket.

Alert Condition 2 - prepare for dispersal.

Alert Condition 1 - overt - disperse the force. Force dispersal was the requirement and the longer the decision was defered the less credible the UK independent deterrent.

Remember, force generation would be taking place in the USA and USSR too. In the case of one Fallex exercise, as often cited by Professor Hennessy, the NATO startex was something like 0800 on a Monday morning. CinC Bomber started his exercise 4 days earlier and brought Bomber Command to a dispersed posture before the declaration of NATO Simple Alert.

OK, paper exercise, but gives you an idea.

PS, just a note on paper exercises if you will forgive the drift:

The aircraft, crew and manning states for the exercise were determined by the actual, real-time, status at startex. If an aicraft was u/s at Offutt then that was its startex state. If real world recovery action had begun then that would be factored in. For the exercise any 'peacetime' action would then be accelerated and the aircraft staged back through Goose rather than night stopping. If it went u/s at Goose then that fault might be transfered to the aircraft which was not assumed to be at home base.

Similarly crews would be recalled on paper, no actual recall taking place, and realistic times assumed. Crew X, living near Waddington, would, if not on leave, be assumed to be available at H+1:50. Whereas Crew Y, with several ex-Scampton crew members, might not be available until H+3:00 as they had to negotiate Lincoln traffic pre-Pelham Bridge and so on.

At about H+4 the exercise clock kicked in with 30 minutes = to one hour and ended at about 1700 which, exercise time, was in the early hours of the following morning.

[Yellow Sun]

Possession of an automatic landing capability does not automatically confer the ability to operate in reduced visibilities and the use of decision heights (DH) below 200'. The Vulcan had a single channel autopilot that could only confer a fail passive capability and would require a visual segment in the approach in order that centreline tracking could be confirmed. The best that could have been achieved with the equipment as fitted would equate to Category 2 capability, i.e. a DH not below 100' above Touch Down Zone Elevation (TDZE). The required visual reference at DH for a CAT 2 approach are to see 3 approach lights (there are other options but this keeps it simple). The problem with the Vulcan would have been that the viusal cut-oof from the cockpit would have made acquisition of the closest light marginal and significantly reduced the chance of a sucessful approach in the normal Cat2 runway Visual Range (RVR) of 300 mtrs. The only way to increase the success rate would have been to raise the minimum RVR to say 400mtrs and given that the minimum RVR for a normal Cat 1 manual landing was 600 mtrs then the additional capability increase was of marginal value. Remember as well that the system envisaged for the v-aircraft required ground installation of leader cables, it was not a pure ILS system as used today.

In summary, the development of autoland and work done on low vis ops by the Blind Landing Experimental Unit was ground breaking and showed what could be achieved. The technology was developed and procedures established, but this was still a long way away from an operational capability available to all service crews.

YS

[Tim McLelland]

Fair enough, but when the concept was actually put into practise (ie - Cuba) the Force was not dispersed when it should have been, because of the risk of escalation.This suggests that even with a "trip wire" policy, the decision to disperse was never going to be taken without a great deal of consideration?

[Blacksheep]

The normal overseas base for 90Sqn during such operations or exercise Sunspot was RAAF Butterworth."Exercise Sunspot" was Luqa; Butterworth and Tengah alternated every other year for what I seem to recall was "Exercise Moonflower" - with a flight detachment to Darwin for the luckier fellows.

Dispersals I remember being used by Waddington Wing when I was there included Macrihanish, Valley, Honington, Manston, Filton, Lyneham, Woodford and Brawdy.

...when the concept was actually put into practise (ie - Cuba) the Force was not dispersed when it should have been.I don't understand the comment. Bomber Command regularly came to readiness on their home bases through Exercise "Mick" and could theoretically disappear to dispersal from that status within 15 minutes. Sometimes Bomber Command would test us when the station was declared ready, by saying "Off you go then!" just to see if we were bullsh*tting.

We could - and regularly did - perform Exercise "Micky Finn" and disperse the entire 'V' Force from a cold start within 24 hours. (That includes all aircraft and aircrew plus the ground crews to maintain them. We went in Hastings, Beverleys and even 42 seater busses.) We may have been a scruffy ill-disciplined crowd of misfits and reprobates, but we knew our jobs inside out and were very proud of our technical ability.

[Pontius Navigator]

which was a fully fueled states and Alert Condition 3. Apart from the need to download live wepaons before any flight it would have been necessary to defuel the aircraft to transit states.

[quote] theoretically disappear to dispersal from that status within 15 minutes./quote] this would only have been from Alert Conditon 2.

[quote]Sometimes Bomber Command would test us when the station was declared ready, by saying "Off you go then!" just to see if we were bullsh*tting. if you mean to dispersal then that was the annual Micky Finn. The other, during a Mick, was a start engines to Readiness 02 and the whole force would do a waddle around the airfield.

We could - and regularly did - perform Exercise "Micky Finn" and disperse the entire 'V' Force from a cold start within 24 hours. (That includes all aircraft and aircrew plus the ground crews to maintain them. We went in Hastings, Beverleys and even 42 seater busses.) We may have been a scruffy ill-disciplined crowd of misfits and reprobates, but we knew our jobs inside out and were very proud of our technical ability.

This was another reason why the Alert Condition 2 state was expected to be of short duration. The ground crews could not be in two places at once and the necessary AT could not be held back waiting for them!

[ACW418]

In the mid 1960's the dispersal was called Exercise Kinsman according to my log book. The system was that (with the exception of the QRA aircraft and those on major maintenance) all aircraft were dispersed as they were generated. The senior crews took the first made ready and so on. The junior crews got the raw deal hanging around all day and then having to fly to some unknown airfield. We were sent to Lyneham on one occasion and on 5 Jan 65 dispersed to Llanbedr. The rub here was that you had to be on the ground ast Llanbedr by 1700 because they let the sheep back onto the airfield then. As we were one of the last to be sent off it was a shortish trip before landing at Llanbedr just before the deadline. In the dark I recall the radar vectoring and approach quite scary as the runway lights were uni-directional and we were vectored to fly 090 towards Snowdon for what seemed like a very long time with no runway lights in sight on a very dark evening.
ACW

[Blacksheep]

The point I was making is that it wasn't necessary to disperse the V Force during the Cuban crisis. It would take less than a morning shift to bring the whole lot up to Alert Condition 2 as our regular wargames proved and despite the press drama, the affair never actually got that close. On either a Mick or Micky Finn we would prep all the Line aircraft, do "Combats" and then disarm again. In one "Mick" we certainly declared all aircraft (except the hangar queen that had lost a wingtip in a towing accident) ready before lunch and half an hour later we had to send the whole lot off. Where they went we ground crew never knew; up to Saxa Vord and back down the Atlantic side I suppose. In any case they didn't get back until after dark and it made a bloody long day - even worse than a Micky Finn.

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW, I think you are confused. The purpose of Kinsman was two-fold. It was to give the dispersal airfield experience in operating its V-bombers and to give the crews practise in using their dispersals.

In practice it was not necessarily a crew's planned war dispersal to which the crew went but available crews who would go. A typical Kinsman was for 2 or 4 crews to fly a routine training sortie but landing at the dispersal. The following day they would depart on a further routine sortie.

Sometimes it was expanded. Ballykelly was a 4 aircraft dispersal and on one occaision we put 4 aircraft in and operated for 4 days having flown in on Monday and eventually departed Friday athough we laned back at Cottesmore after each sortie and a different crew went to Ballykelly.

At Pershore we once did a 2-day exercise. We landed from a hi-lo-hi 5hr 45min practically on fumes and the following day, having cut short, we did a 5hr 25 min HLH.

Full dispersal was only done on Micky Finn. Crews might disperse on Monday with the Blue Steel Vulcans perhaps arriving Tuesday and the lame-duck Victor BS as late as Wednesday. When the force was ready we would be scrambled on Wednesday or Thursday.

One year it was decided for a complete no-notice mass scramble. When I say no-notice I meant even ATC was in the dark. The order was duly given and some 150 aircraft launched throughout the UK within 5 minutes of so. It had been decided that fltplans would be filed at main base and only after the sc then could we start filing flight plans. Given the number sramble could we start filing.

As we could not receive 20 plus Vulcans at the same time it was planned that some sorties would be less than 2 hrs duration - Ballykelly, into the Scottish Glens, a 2E at Newcastle and recovery. Comcen was still filing fltplans an hour or more after the first aircraft had landed.

[Pontius Navigator]

On either a Mick or Micky Finn we would prep all the Line aircraft, do "Combats" and then disarm again. In one "Mick" we certainly declared all aircraft (except the hangar queen that had lost a wingtip in a towing accident) ready before lunch and half an hour later we had to send the whole lot off.

Waddo could generally complete its main force generation, including the 4 at Finningley, comfortably under 5 hours. Given an 0400 start they would be ready for the go before 1000. Alcon 1 was often called 0930-1000. I recall one disperse when we 'lost' and aircraft.

It had not been declared combat available and was supposedly waiting for weapons load. Once all the noise had died down we were waiting on its state declaration but only got silence.

I went out and found it had gone to Manston (Frank Bonfield) and no one had a record of its ready times. The crew had just completed the checks and weapon load commenced when the disperal order was given. The Nav Rad was in the bombbay doing the acceptance checks when the engines spooled up. He sh^t and shot out of the bombbay, into the aircraft, doors closed and off they went.

[Tim McLelland]

despite the press drama, the affair never actually got that close

Interesting point - all rather depends on which reports of the saga are closer to the truth I guess. I've seen some accounts which claim that the affair really did get that close and that it was the PM's decision not to disperse, but as to what the actual truth of the matter was...

[Pontius Navigator]

that it was the PM's decision not to disperse, but as to what the actual truth of the matter was...

This is sbsolutely true. I think Peter Hennessy covers this in The Secret State. Certainly he has done more work on Cuba recently.

[ozleckie]

I was an Armament Electrician at Cottesmore between 1961 and 1964 and the dispersals at that time were Boscombe Down for 10 Sqn and St Mawgan for 15 Sqn and I went to both many times.

During the Cuban Crisis we were loading live weapons on any airframe that had wings and engines and prior to then we had only ever loaded live weapons to the QRA aircraft

[VictorPilot]

Interesting to see this thread back on line. I was on Victors from 1960 to 1967 and lived through all the fun days!! Reading through the thread, there are some inaccuracies, and some new bits worth adding.

Early on it states that the sqn numbers peaked in Jan 63. It then lists the squadrons but ignores No 139(Jamaica) Sqn - the first Victor 2 free fall squadron.

Bruntingthorpe was indeed a Victor 2 dispersal, with a nice pub in the village; I remember happy hours there! The dispersal flights, especially in the middle of the night to a wide, poorly lit and apparently short runway, always got the adrenaline flowing! It is still a "dispersal" as the home of the Cold War jets collection. A Victor K2 is kept in running condition and does public "fast runs" on open days. The next is on 3 May and all are welcome!

The Victors certainly did "live" QRA with Blue Steel. To meet take-off requirements, the inertial nav system had to be kept at its operating temperature 24/7. I also remember the drama of HTP temperature monitoring - and supporting drills. My crew did an emergency off-load at about 1am one night! Plastic suits, water hoses, floodlights and all! Happy memories!!

The Victor Force was fully involved with dispersal exercises with both "Dry" and "Wet" Blue Steel inert missiles. Flying with a "Wet" missile was not uncommon, but led to a couple of immediate landings at the nearest suitable airfields when the HTP temperature was uncertain.

I think there may be some confusion over the Blue Steel release plans. The method to be employed was developed with the type of release to be used. Initially everything was planned for a high level release at maximum BS powered range, but there was a fall back of an unpowered free fall release. Then, if I remember correctly, we went low level, and the release range was much shorter following a mini-pop-up attack. From low level, if BS had to be released unpowered, the plan was to accelerate to about 400 Knts (?)and do a major full-power pop-up to a pre-determined release height, about 12000 Ft, input a quick NBS correction, drop and run!! I remember practicing one of these releases at Goose Bay in the winter and the full power climb was nearly vertical!

The auto-land situation was described earlier. It is worth noting that the Victor 2 was also equipped for auto-land. The ILS aerial was moved from the port wing tip to a small bullet in front of the Bomb Aimers position to put the aircraft on the centreline, it is still there today on the K2. It had an enhanced radar altimeter fitted, but the operation of the whole system depended on twin ILS leader cables being installed at the airfields. Wittering was not equipped because of the A1, and the "blind landing" requirement went away as noted earlier. That said, as I recall, the system was given "switch on" clearance only, following Boscombe Trials, to 250 Ft, and sometimes when we were bored, we did Auto-ILS approaches.

Back to memory stretching!!

[Pontius Navigator]

I think there may be some confusion over the Blue Steel release plans. The method to be employed was developed with the type of release to be used. Initially everything was planned for a high level release at maximum BS powered range, but there was a fall back of an unpowered free fall release. Then, if I remember correctly, we went low level, and the release range was much shorter following a mini-pop-up attack. From low level, if BS had to be released unpowered, the plan was to accelerate to about 400 Knts (?)and do a major full-power pop-up to a pre-determined release height, about 12000 Ft, input a quick NBS correction, drop and run!! I remember practicing one of these releases at Goose Bay in the winter and the full power climb was nearly vertical!

The BS low level reversion was the same as the free-fall 2E which was a 500ft entry at 350kts and a climb to level at 11000ft. It was supposed to be 4 miles of so (40 seconds) to release and about 6 miles from the target.

This was an inelegant solution with crews in training poping up earlier and earlier to get better scores. It led to the development of the 2H where release was made in the climb with the popup occurring between 9 miles - Vulcan 301 and 10.5 miles Vulcan 101. I am not sure that the Victor 2 was still in service when the 2H was developed. I have a paper in the office that I can check on Monday.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bomber Command Operational Research Branch on Memo 281 dated Nov 1963, stated that the Yellow Sun and Blue Steel could be released in level flight after a popup manoeuvre at 300kts EAS. The Yellow Sun could also be released at flight path angles of 10 to 20 degrees above the horizontal. In level flight the minimum release altitude was 11,000 ft. For the Yellow Sun it was 9,500 ft in a 10 degree climb and 8,400 ft in a 20 degree climb.



The level release at 11,000 ft was called a 2E and the release in the climb was called a 2H. The time of bomb fall for the Blue Steel was considerably less but the forward throw was considerably more than the YS2. The release in the climb case was not considered as they did not think they would get clearance.

[Terenceskipp]

This thread appears longstanding, and not wishing to add to "confusion" but I can recall driving past the easterly end of Bruntingthorpe's runway in 1965 (ish) and seeing a Vulcan & a Victor, I think each with a Blue Steel underslung, engines idling and surrounded by what appeared to be armed RAF police..................but the memory is a little vague on the details. However these aircraft were definitely there around that time.
I used to cycle to Brunt in the late 50's early 60's planespotting B47's & B66's so although the USAF had left, used to periodically drive past.
Any one confirm this????????????????

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Spotters Forum?

Just a thought. ;)

[an old Bomber SATCO]

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC Bruntingthorpe was a USAF base. I checked Google and found my memory was not failing:

"The base was used for testing Meteors in 1945 before being placed on Care and Maintenance from 1945 until January 1957 when it was transferred to USAF Command as a satellite to USAF at Alconbury. The station closed when the USAF left in 1962."

In the late 50s Alconbury was a B66 base. If you look at Brunters you will see 30 Y dispersals that could have accomodated many of the Alconbury bombers.

In the early 60s it was not unknown for aircraft en route Bitteswell from Cottesmore to mistake Bruntingthorpe as its runway was much better. I am not aware on and RAF use of Bruntingthorpe as a V-bomber dispersal.

[VIProds]

V-Force dispersal

In the early 60's I was stationed at Honnington & worked in the Electronics Block. Having done many stints of QRA & Special Safety Team (if a Nuclear weapon crashed, we had to go in & see if there was any spillage of Plutonium & cordon off down wind of the incident & identify the Plutonium with Geiger Counters).

One early morning we had a "Mickey Finn" & all the serviceable Victor B1's were disperssed apart from two which were sat on the end of Honningtons runway.

A fault developed with one of the aircraft's I.F.F. The Squadron Guys couldn't locate the fault which made the aircraft non "Combat Ready". I got a 'phone call in the Electronics Block to say that they were sending a Staff car to take me to the Victor & explained the symtoms of the fault.

When I arrived at the aircraft, the Crew Cheif said that if the balloon goes up when I was inside, I would have to go with them !! PN informs me that the ASC would have meant it:\

When I got inside, the cockpit, I looked back to see he was closing the door & taking the ladders away.:eek: I crawled under the desk where the Nav Plotter was sitting & squeezed between the rear bulkhead & the back of the "Black Boxes". I identified the I.F.F. Control Unit & unscrewed the Pye connector plug only to find that two pins had been pushed back (a common fault). I reseated the pins & very gently mated the plug & screwed it back up. The A.E.O. confirmed that it was working correctly, so I got out of there PDQ.

I have always thought that they had "yellow Sun" loaded up, but PN says if it was a "Mickey Finn", it could have been inert or concevably "warshot" had been uploaded, the aircraft declared & the weapons downloaded.

[Terenceskipp]

Yes the 19th TRS was based at Bruntingthorpe, part of the wing from Alconbury, with another of the TRS deployed to Chelveston. however after the USAF departed and the airfield reverted to the RAF on a "care & maintenance" it was used for dispersal of V bombers, and it was in this latter period that I recall the Victor and Vulcan deployed.:hmm:

[Fareastdriver]

All this takes me back to the early sixties when I was a humble pilot on 90 Valiant tanker squadron at Honington.

At about four in the morning there would be this God-awful noise from the mess tannoys as they went on bleating about an Exercise Mick or Micky Finn. This would be followed by the sound of doors slamming and feet running as all my compatriots on 55 and 57 Victor squadrons rushed around and went off to work.

After half and hour or so the noise would die down and I could turn over and get back to sleep.

[dkh51250]

If memory serves me well, we were never told that it was an "exercise" only that an alert had been declared.

All those happy hours on a pan with a pick helve for company.

[forget]

The clue was in the Tannoy announcement -

'Attention Attention Attention. This is the (station name) controller. Exercise Mickey Finn, I repeat Exercise Mickey Finn'.

Can you see it yet. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Forget, I have no recollection of tannoy messages :)

Sirens, going to Ops, grabbing the callout book and a telephone. The operators were sh1t hot and very quickly knew which phones were being used for off-base callout. No sooner had I finished one call than she would ask for the next number.

There was a tendency not to call it a Mick or Mickey Finn but "an Irish gentleman has come to call".

For the groundcrew and armament teams they probably weren't standing still long enough to hear the tannoy. At Waddo the first aircraft was usually combat ready well under 2 hours and often full generation within 5 hours.

Where there were insufficient drill weapons it was usual to load live weapons (hence the later confusion about live/drill) and then off-load. Once we got WE177 we had enough drill rounds.

[dkh51250]

Forget, on the tannoy in my little room there was no mention of it being an exercise, neither did we know if it was going to be a Mick or a Micky Finn. Everytime we used to report in with all our kit to find out if we were going anywhere.

As mentioned it was always referred to as an "alert " being declared. Always helped with the confusion element dontcherknow.

To this day I still have a "go bag" with enough to survive for a few days packed away inside it.

[forget]

I'm talking about when ground equipment was still painted blue. The '60s. Mick and Mickey Finns were called by a Tannoy message as above. Also with QRA and Exercise Edoms.

I'm 100% certain of this. In fact, one late evening on the line at Coningsby in '69 (Waddington's runway was being resurfaced) I found a bull-horn in a store room and called my own Mickey Finn from behind the line control hut with the usual announcement. 'Attention Attention Attention. This is the Coningsby controller. Exercise Mickey Finn, I repeat Exercise Mickey Finn'.

....... and it worked fine. Un-convincing half a dozen frantic crew chiefs was something I hadn't planned for. :\

[dkh51250]

Yep, I am talking about the same location same period, and a bit before it. Perhaps Lincoln block worked on a different system to the remainder of the station.

[dkh51250]

Edoms used to be prefixed by "this is the Bomber Command controller" or was that the phantom tannoy in Lincoln Block at work again?

[Pontius Navigator]

Forget, I was there at CY the same time :)

As for Edoms, the Bomber Controller bit was what came over the Bomber Box. Even though I must have put out tannoy's myself I have no recollection of the words I used - just pure mantra.

Similarly when actually on QRA we rarely heard the tannoy. The Ops O used to flip the tannoy on while the Bomber Controller was talking and we were off, usually before he got as far as Exercise . . .

ATC used to give us a clue as to the readiness state by firing a coloured very at the Q cars. One day they got a hit and the lead car at Cottesmore picked up a yellow very under the chasis.

I would have imagined that the only time it would have said "Coningsby Controller" would have been for a Groupex or some such.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Waddo early 80s... "This is the Bomber Controller, for Bomblist Alfa, Readiness 15 is now in force, [authentication codes]".

Repeated on Tannoy and on ATC Local frequency, verbatim and with no embellishments.

[Pontius Navigator]

2-tone, thank you. Had I had to place a bet that is what I wouldhave opted for.

The thing is, the actual format was set out in a TS document and possibly a S too. ATC would not have had access to the TS and maybe not even the S doc. The safest way therefore was a verbatim repeat.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

The thing is, the actual format was set out in a TS document and possibly a S too. ATC would not have had access to the TS and maybe not even the S doc. The safest way therefore was a verbatim repeat.

... Apart from one sgt ATCO in Local who was genetically incapable of reading the text of the message as written on the perspex card by the ATCA [the ATCA just had to fill in the gaps, the rest of the message was SOP and pre-printed]. Regardless of how often he was told, he still insisted on putting his own style on the RT broadcast. He also held the World Record for keeping the traffic lights on the A17 and the thresholds on red when there was no need. To55er!

[ArthurR]

I can remember at Marham, in the late 60's a "mickey" being called, then 3 of us jumping in a car, and trying to get through the gates before they closed them. Didn't work though :mad:

[forget]

Waddo early 80s... 2-tone, thank you. Had I had to place a bet that is what I would have opted for.

Eh? We were talking Micks and Mickey Finns - which didn't exist in the eighties - and whether the word 'Exercise' was used in Tannoy alerts. Yes, it was. And I'll place a bet on that.

[ian16th]

Just found this thread since it came ‘up the list’. What a wonderful waste of a Sunday reading it all.

My recollections.

Exercise Sunspot Sept 1959. I was on 214 Sqdn, we were doing the in-flight re-fuelling trials but someone at Group or Command had left us on the roster for ‘Sunspot’. Our turn came around and when it was pointed out that we had our bomb bays full of HDU and there was no room for any bombs et al. We were apparently informed that it was too late to schedule a different sqdn, so we went!

During this detachment we lost XD869, see http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/358970-valiant-xd869-crash-marham-1959-a.html?highlight=XD869

WRT to the Cuban Crises see: The day Britain was 15 minutes from triggering Armageddon | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063097/The-day-Britain-15-minutes-triggering-Armageddon.html)

Incidentally The Group Capt. Beetham mentioned in the Daily mail article was Wing Co. Beetham OC 214 Sqdn at the time of the ‘Sunspot’. He went on to become MoRAF.

My part in the Cuban Crisis? I was posted to Akrotiri on 13th Oct 1962 :ok:

[The Oberon]

Have to agree with Forget on this one. Place ? Wittering 1965 - 1967, Victor B2R / Blue Steel.
Micks, Mickey Finns and Edoms always tannoyed and always prefixed Exercise .......

[scorpion63]

Cottesmore 1967 to 1968 the same

[forget]

Hallelujah! :ok: Thought for a (very) fleeting moment I was cracking up.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ forget ... a different era, and my apologies for imposing 1980's on the 1960's.

A certain OC 50 Sqn whinged at a PXR after a callout, because he was unaware of whether it was an Exercise or real. A certain "Big John" Stn Cdr observed ... "What difference should that make, Chris?".

The horn goes, you move. Perhaps the 60's were different.

[Pontius Navigator]

I quite agree with the fact that Edom was prefixed Exercise and was actually commenting on the fact that message was "This is the Bomber Controller" as opposed to Cottesmore Controller.

As for the tannoys being prefixed Exercise Mick or whatever, as aircrew we were never around long enough to hear the tannoy. Certainly we heard the Bomber Controller over the bomber box and indeed it was essential that he said who the message was for:

viz "............for QRA Force only, Exercise Edom ......"

or

"..............for Bomblist Charlie, Exercise Mick ........"

AFAIK remember QRA crews reacted to a Mick readiness change but not to a Micky Finn change.

[Fareastdriver]

I didn't care whether the tannoys were prefixed with exercise this, that, or the other, or not. I still used to have a leisurely breakfast in a deserted dining room.

[FJJP]

At Leeming, ATC had a 'bomber box'. They were briefed shortly after we arrived by the Ops Pilot to repeat the Bomber Controller's message exactly [on pain of death or worse]. We even gave them example messages to help them get it right. As soon as the Bomber Controller uttered a word, they broadcasted it no matter what was going on. It didn't half p*ss of the locals in the circuit!

I did Micky Finns and Micks in the sixties, and Micks in the seventies and eighties. Ex Mick could be used by a single Sqn doing a dispersal exercise... 'Attention, attention, this is the Bomber Controller for Leeming only, readiness 05 is now in force. For Leeming only, readiness 05 is now in force. For Leeming only, readiness 05 is now in force.' And every minute - 'For Leeming only, readiness 05 is now in force' [30 secs for readiness 02]. When the whole practice was ended, the reversion to readiness 15 was accompanied by an authentication code which the crews had to match with sealed cards before reverting. And once they didn't, which caused a huge embarrassment... [but that's another story!]

ISTR that Exercise Edom was for real QRA only.

[BEagle]

I thought it was EX INDEX in the late '70s and early '80s?

We of the mighty 35 always went to Finningley and worked from some remote spot - although we had a night in the mess before the fly-off at the end of the 'war'.

Certain navigators had great fun taunting their ex-instructors if they spotted them.....;)

[Nav Rad]

Whist I cannot get over excited regarding the discussion on dispersals, Micks, Micky Finns and Kinsmans (did anyone mention the latter?) and have not, I have to say, read every reply. However, I felt that as a particular airfield caught my eye I ought to say something. I served 38 years in the RAF as aircrew and Nav Radar and flew the Valiant, Victor and Vulcan and can assure the odd doubter and uninitiated that Tarrant Rushton did exist as a dispersal airfield. It was one of 148 Sqn's, a Valiant Sqn, and I flew one of our Sqn's Valiants into it when I was stationed at RAF Marham in the early 60s (date of flight in and out can be supplied from my Log Books). Our crew stayed in a local pub. The SMO, an RAF policeman and an ATC officer came down from Marham by road. The idea was that we flew in an aircraft and opened up these type of dispersals from time to time to exercise the facility ready for any future dispersal of aircraft. Name of the Irish SMO and Air Traffic Officer can be supplied. Unfortunately not that of the policeman or his dog. The latter I believe to be deceased, otherwise it would be in the Guinness Book of Records for longevity!

[Flying Icecream]

I well remember the Vulcan detachments to VL (Yeovilton) in the mid-60s. One always knew when something was "up" when the Beverleys and Hastings appeared. At that time,the RAF personnel would be billeted in their own secure & self-contained camp,on the far side of the airfield,and therefore some distance from not only the main accomodation site,but the airfield "Technical Site" as well. I knew the RAF Corporal who was permanently based at Yeovilton,to look after the RAF accomodation,as he was,like me,a "folk-singer",and performed locally as half of "Terry & Alan" ; Alan was the Corporal,Terry was a Lt/Commander (test pilot !!).
The (2) Vulcans had a dispersal very close to the threshold of 09, and seemed to get airborne pretty niftily ,following a firework display from the balcony under the VCP ! At one time,it was my lot to help to lovingly tend to the many needs of our Marconi 264,which lived in a field nearby; in order to get there,of course,we had to drive past 09 threshold,and were always stopped,searched etc.,by very zealous-looking chaps with doggies,Sterling SMGs ,etc, which was always JOLLY INCONVENIENT !! We used to argue that,in order for us to be a Master Diversion Airfield in the first place,the needs of the 264 (which was later written-off by a herd of cows whilst ...um....I was on weekend Radar Watch in ...um...the Tower,but that's another story !) took precedence,but we soon learned that you can't argue with a Rock Ape !

[tornadoken]

Prof.Hennessy has reissued The Secret State with a graphic (P.334) by a Nav Rad with 49 flightpaths skirting Arctic Sweden. Some launch from airports. He also (P.212) has 26 RAF "Bomber Bases" (here noted *) in a 1967 CoS paper guessing Sov. targets in UK.

Let me try to link what Wynn tells us, with what posters here have said.

Valiant/Marham* Tactical Bomber Force: QRA: 1 a/c p.Sqdn from 1/10/60-9/12/64. No dispersal (US custodials).

Medium Bomber Force. 1 a/c p.Sqdn QRA (progressively) from 1/1/62 - 30/6/69, stated to be 14 a/c, late-1963. Dispersal Exercised 1961/62 as Mickey Finn. First Whole Force/no notice was MF III, 13-15/11/63: CiC BC: "16 of our 29 dispersals were used by 47 a/c" (p.337). MF IV, 26-29/10/64: 25 dispersals were used by 35 a/c, the remainder ({? =4} of our dispersals) was activated by personnel only" p.338.

11/63 Class A: MBF Main Bases: Coningsby*/Cottesmore*/Scampton*/Waddington*: Vulcan; Honington*/Wittering*: Victor.
Other MBF Class A Bases: OCUs: Finningley*/Gaydon*; PR: Wyton*.
9. Wynn, P.306 agrees. Coningsby was inactive from 17/11/64, Gaydon from 6/65. ex-TBF Marham was idle, but available as an MBF dispersal, from 9/12/64 until Victor K.1 arrived 7/65 (and used by Waddo in ?1968).

Posters say (duplicates edited out):
Coningsby: Burtonwood (only between early-1963 and 11/64, when 9 & 12 Sqdns. moved to Cott. and B'wood had come off RAF care & maintenance);
Cottesmore: Ballykelly*, MoA Boscombe Down*, Leconfield*, MoA Llanbedr, Lyneham*, MoA Pershore*, St.Mawgan*, Thorney Is., Valley*, RNAS Yeovilton*;
Scampton: RNAS Brawdy*, Kinloss*, Leeming*, RNAS Lossiemouth*, MoA Thurleigh (Bedford*);
Waddington: BAC Filton*, Leuchars, Machrihanish*, Manston*, Wattisham, HSAL Woodford;
Wittering: Bruntingthorpe (though Action Stations has it empty after USAF/TAC left, 9/62) (Wynn has Coltishall)
That's (6*, then 5 Main Bases, plus: 3*, then 2 nearly-Main, plus: 24 dispersals (16 of them are *). Posters have also offered: Carnaby, Chivenor, Fairford, MoA Farnborough, Shawbury, MoA West Freugh. (posters noted Valiant Detachments at College of A Cranfield, Cranwell, MoA Tarrant Rushton). No posts for "1966 given up": Elvington, Middleton St.George, Prestwick.

More input from the horses' mouths, please. (Done; this post updated 25/11/10 to No.149)

So we're trying to identify "Our 29 dispersals" 11/63 for the 6 Main Bases. If: 3 were Finningley, Gaydon and Wyton (in 1963 Marham had its discrete TBF Q Task), plus the 16* here posted then: the further 10 1963 dispersals might be: Bruntingthorpe, Burtonwood, Coltishall, Cranwell, Elvington, Llanbedr, Middleton St.George, Prestwick, Wattisham...plus 1. All these are in Wynn's list (P.307). His extra one was Stansted.

[forget]

Cottesmore: Ballykelly, MoA Boscombe Down, Mao Llanbedr, Lyneham, MoA Pershore, St.Mawgan, Thorney Is., Valley, RNAS Yeovilton. (Wynn says: Leconfield, Leeming);

You can add Leuchars to that. And he's right about Leconfield. I've got reasons for remembering them both.

[Blacksheep]

Waddington: RR Filton, Leuchars, Machrihanish, Manston, Wattisham, HSAL WoodfordAdd Valley and Honington. We also used Marham at least once, in 1968 I think, 'cos two teams of ground crew went by road in one bus and we dropped one off at Marham on our way to Honington.

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget Bedford. Late in the day, late 60s or early 70s it was activated during a Mickey Finn but they did not scramble with the main force. they remained at readiness for 28 days with no personnel exchange between Waddo and the dispersal. Redifusion even lent them TV(s) for free as the period was too short for a proper rental agreement.

IIRC West Freugh was another. Fairford too?

[alisoncc]

Interestingly there has been no mention of the Vulcan B2's with 230 OCU B Sqdn at Finningley. I have distinct memories of doing twelve on, twelve off, shifts in a caravan out on the airfield -QRA or ORP not sure. If the intent of a Mickey Finn was to launch everything, then it meant everything.

Equally vivid is the memory of the Duty Officer being firmly directed away by the SWO from our table in the mess at breakfast. Unshaven, torn anoraks, big wet-weather boots and rolled down thick white socks, navy-style blue sweaters, etc. these were not recognised dress for the start of a new day. Couple that with a group of very pissed-off guys who had been up all night and an insurrection was easily on the cards.

[Pontius Navigator]

To fill in Allison's point about Finningley.

Finningley was a Waddington responsibility as far as manning with operational crews.

When the alert was sounded 230 OCU woud generate 4 aircraft and OCU aircrew would complete combat checks, weapons would be loaded and the aircraft would wait for Waddo crews to arrive and bring them 'on state.'

To that end Waddo expected to get 4 crews assembled, kitted, and on the road in under 2 hours, at Finningley in 3 and on state before 4 hours were up. I had to ensure that crews allocated to the Finningley aircraft were the most reliable at reporting in when the hooter went. In that first 2 hours Waddo also had to generate the QRA spare so needed at least 8 crews, including the QRA crews inside the 2 hours and a further 16 crews asap to continue generation. Typically Waddo would have 20 aircraft up inside 5 hours hours or 24 including Finningley.

On one occasion when we also had the rump of the Mark 1 aircraft a total of 31 aircraft (including 5-6 at Finningley) were generated and we ran out of crews. The OCU staff then formed scratch crews to bak fill the Waddo spare aircraft. I ended up, as a Mk 2 Nav Rad, on a Mk 1 aircraft on QRA and at the same time was the Wing Operations officer for the exercise. We simply ran out of officers of all descriptions on the station.

[BEagle]

Finningley was a SFD for Scampton in the late 1970s. Many a fun detachment there, particularly taking the pi$$ out of obnoxious Finningley staff giving plastic sergeants and baby navigators a hard time...

IIRC, the dead dog mob used Leeming as their SFD, whilst the geriatrics of 27 just continued to count boats.

[tornadoken]

My post #143 updated with input here, to (try to) reconcile with Wynn's list of 36 sites (Medium Bomber Force, plus Marham, Tactical Bomber Force).

[forget]

Your up-date shows;

Cottesmore: Ballykelly*, MoA Boscombe Down*, Leconfield*, MoA Llanbedr, Lyneham*, MoA Pershore*, St.Mawgan*, Thorney Is., Valley*, RNAS Yeovilton*;

No mention of Leuchars. Am I misreading what you're after?

[tornadoken]

I listed Leuchars at Waddo, just because it was first posted there. Posts here have other such duplications.

[tantalite]

I joined in 1967 as a Gen Mech, did the training and off to Waddo. In Feb '68 I was detached to Machrihanish to the MBD facility. I was 18 and enjoyed the experience and responsibility. There was a three man permanent staff, Sgt Malcolm Dobson, an MT Fitt, SAC Fred Sharley a Ground Electrician and myself a Gen Mech. Spent a year there, had one Mick and one Mickey Finn. Malcolm was posted to Singapore where he sadly died, had a couple of temp MT Fitts and in Jan/Feb '69 myself Fred and Sgt 'Tug' Wilson closed the dispersal shipping most of the equipment to Cottesmore for 9Sqdn departure to Cyprus.
Me COs rec and a fitters course after which I did a year at Valley which was where I learnt Sub Aqua and did little else for a year, posted to Goose Bay but did a quick relief detachment at Leuchars.
Waddo had, Wattisham, Brawdy, Yeovilton, Manston, and forget some of the others as dispersals in my days.
One good memory was at Leuchars, remember launching a bird with the earthing cable still attached, renaming 43 Sqdn the Fighting Cooks and kidnapping their Cockerel, which was repatriated after our support Argosy, I hitched a lift home for the weekend, was stopped on the runway for negotiations prior to departure to Waddo!!
Good times, good memories!!

[Pontius Navigator]

TY Tantalite :)

[langleybaston]

I do hope the Met staff at Finningley were not obnoxious ...................

I WAS THERE, deputy to the SMetO !

We had a marvellous team under a great boss, Mac Cameron, and the ethos was most certainly that we were there to serve the customer to the best of our ability.
OC Flying / Ops? once caught me having a charp in a snowstorm but, as he pointed out, it had indeed been properly and accurately forecast, warnings issued and after that it was up to the client to shovel snow!

[Echo 5]

Rather than start a new thread maybe someone on here can enlighten me.
Up to the end of 1970 when I finally left Scampton for pastures new the runway headings were 05/23. I am quite clear about this as every morning I had to phone the tower to get clearance to cross to the far side of the airfield.
Looking on Google Earth I see that the headings are now 04/22. Must have been a hell of a job to swing 9000 feet of concrete a few degrees. Anyone here in the know ?:confused:

[RAFEngO74to09]

Echo 5,

There you go - explained here:

Earth?s Magnetic Field Shifts, Forcing Airport Runway Change | LiveScience (http://www.livescience.com/9231-earths-magnetic-field-shifts-forcing-airport-runway-change.html)

[Echo 5]

Thanks for that RAFEngO74to09.

[Pontius Navigator]

And Gibraltar in 1963 and Coningsby about 2000. Given the cost of changing the numbers and the plates SATCO didn't want to change but the change was forced on him :)

[tmmorris]

Very common. Benson and Kidlington have both gone from 02/20 to 01/19 in the last ten years.

[WH904]

St.Mawgan too. I still can't get my head around 12/30, it just sounds plain wrong! :)

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember reading Supernature by Lyall Watson back in the 70s. At one point he made the assertion that the area known as The Bermuda Triangle is unique as it is the only place on earth where magnetic variation is zero !

As I knew this was tripe I reckoned there was a fair chance the rest of the book was tripe too - and it was!

[airsmiles]

Did this thread come to any definite conclusion about Tarrant Rushton's use for V-bomber QRA dispersal. My local friends say that 4 Valiants used to visit periodically and the photo attached clearly shows parking for 4 aircraft. I presume the additional dispersals to the right of the QRA area were a relic of the 2nd World War era.

airsmiles

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn128/PNK_album/VBORP.jpg

[Wensleydale]

From information on a map in the Waddington Heritage Centre, the V-Force dispersal sites were:


St Mawgan; Tarrant Rushton; Yeovilton; Boscombe Down; Manston; Lynham; Filton; Brawdy; Pershaw; Bedford; Wattisham; Bruntingthorpe; Coltishall; Llanbedr; Cranwell; Valley; Burtonwood; Elvington; Leconfield; Leeming; Middleton St George; Ballykelly; Machrahanish; Prestwich; Leuchars; Kinloss; Lossiemouth.


It does not state which type went where however - nor does it have a date....

[BEagle]

Well, 35 Sqn's strike force dispersal aerodrome in the late '70s was Finningley - and it isn't on that list.

[Wensleydale]

Finningley was/had been a V-Force base (230 OCU) and so I did not include it. If you wish me to add the permanent bases as well then: Finningley; Scampton; Waddington; Coningsby; Cottesmore; Wittering; Marham; Gaydon; Wyton; Honington. As previously stated the map we hold, which is just a sketch map, has no date but possibly relates to the Cuba Missile Crisis era.

[Pontius Navigator]

Finningley's role was to provide 4 aircraft for the Waddington wing. OCU crews would combat check the aircraft and we supplied the crews. We had to get 4 crews on the road,with operational go bags on a Mick, in under two hours.

On one exercise we generated 24 aircraft on top of 7 at Finningley and had to bus Finningley crews to Waddington when we ran out. We had to request additional ALNs and I ended up on QRA and also the duty ops officer. Had we had a QRA alert I would have had to make the broadcast and leg it.

Yes add Finningley.

BTW, it is PERSHORE.

[langleybaston]

Please did FY have that role 1970 - 75?

I was in Met. throughout that period and we had little visibility of such activities, probably because just about all Met. for the V. Force originated in HQSTC and we had little or no involvement.

We certainly saw/ heard Vulcans from time to time of course. "The sound of freedom" as I told my whingeing neighbours in Bessacarr, Doncaster.

[taxydual]

FY certainly did have a dispersal role in the early '70's. My 1st posting was FY in '75 and I recall arriving in ATC one afternoon to see 4 x Vulcans on Delta Dispersal (SW corner on the airfield) and the 'Bomber Box' Hadley bleeping away in Local Control.

I almost wet myself when "Attention Attention, This is the Bomber Controller for Strikelist Hotel, Scramble, Scramble, Scramble" came over the 2 core wire from Bawtry. (In my defence, I was young and impressionable). After all, having watched Varsity's, JP's and Dominies doing their stuff, to see real Air Force was somewhat else.

Sad, I know.

[langleybaston]

Thank you.

As far as I know the only local Met. inputs were:

SMetO checking the instruments in the SSA [under armed escort of course], and the routine obs. and warnings and TAFS to ATC.

[taxydual]

Langley

In my time (1975), the SSA was mostly derelict. The 'mine shafts' were wrecked. However, there was one mysterious small hangar type building that still had power and 'humming' coming from it. Rumour had it that it glowed in the dark!

[Pontius Navigator]

LB, while Strike Met was supposed to be supreme after a particularly forecast, as in d*g sh1t, the question was always asked "what do you think?" We always followed the local device, even to the extent of taking div kit.

[langleybaston]

Thanks to my respondents. I shall shortly be going to a Met. reunion which will include a lot of chaps of both FY and Bawtry. I will ask for their inputs and, if I trawl anything, report back.

Its a bugger: I know where I was 1970-75, but the details are less than clear. For example, I seem to recall that Met. moved from a classical front of hangar location to the Air Electronics block. Perhaps I was on day duties [lecturing] but darned if I can remeber the inevitable turmoil of the move. On my keyring I still have a brass disc inscribed "Hangar ablutions airmen" goodness knows how I came by that!