Goodbye Stn Life as we know it...

[Grimweasel]

Is any one else more than worried by the possible impact of Project ATHENA if it gets accepted by the Air Force Board??

I won't go into specifics here so as not to up-set any pre-contractual sensitivities, but for those who know ....WHAT A COMPLETE FARCE

There was a survey winging about a few weeks ago on retention and how to improve quality of life...well, the first step would be NOT accept this treasury driven pathetic intrusion on the already over taxed and penalized serviceman.

Mess life would be destroyed as would the small trappings of stn life such as clubs, SIF, canteens etc.

I really do hope the board fend this off, as it may be worth a letter to local MP (Mr Michael Ancram none the less!!)

[insty66]

I'm guessing it's not this http://www.cohortplc.com/downloads/061013_LEAPP_SCS-SML_Release_Final.pdf

Or is it this? http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/news/114.html

I would guess this is closer to the mark http://www.serco.co.uk/Images/defence%20and%20home%20affairs_tcm3-11358.pdf
but still not right!

How can we discuss this apparently cataclysmic project with just the name.:confused: If it's that bad why would you worry about upsetting contractual applecarts?

If it's secret why even post?

I'll just ask tomorrow I suppose.

[LunchMonitor]

I believe Athena is the new(ish) name for save as you starve/Pay as you dine

[Bismark]

I believe Athena is the new(ish) name for save as you starve/Pay as you dine

I attended a Mess Dinner at Yeovilton a little while back and firstly the food at the dinner was outstanding and secondly the Yeovilton Mess Members spoke very highly of pay as you dine which they have had for about a year.

[L J R]

In 2007, does it REALLY matter that the Brit military is possibly moving away from a 'Model' airbase from the '30s - (1930's I mean)?

Sure, some of the potential savings will erode conditions of service, which is totally wrong, but surely a 're-vamped' methodology, more in line with what the servicemen need, want and require should be implemented.

Critisism inbound, I am expecting.

[GPMG]

Project Athena.

Is it where tacky and annoying pictures of half naked men holding babies or carrying tyres are put up around the station?

If so then I can see how this will be distressing.

[Strictly Jungly]

Mess Life as we know it........................has been gradually destroyed over the last 15 years..............is this just another nail in the coffin.......??

[Cumbrian Fell]

Super PAYD, I understand, to include management of messes, accommodation, sporting facilities and other food and drink outlets (including rugby clubs etc). Supposedly there will be scope for commercial enterprise - eg building a travelodge style transit hotel straddling the fenceline - but apart from some sad spotters, who would want to stay near an RAF base? Can't see ATHENA passing the Main Gate Business Case, however...

[Grimweasel]

Super PAYD indeed. Contract out all messing / bars / club bars etc. Something about 5 key areas, concerning civilianising the PEdO branch. All minor works etc for Gyms / Messes / Club bldgs etc will be financed thru the money made by hiring out the mess / facilities. So you want a dinner night in the mess, sorry Sir XBN PLC are in that night. U go to the Gym at lunch to find all the equipment being used by Jo Civi from down the town!

All the last facilities etc that you know and love and maybe just keep u in the services will be contracted out to make HMG richer.

The core menu will be binned due to the companies not making enough money on them in the trial stn's, so they have convinced the powers that be to axe it, moving people onto the more expensive products.

Lets hope CAS tell's them to poke off...otherwise I fear many may walk?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

In a colony not unknown for its crazy experiments with armed forces the singlies pay an optional standing charge (400CAD a month iirc) and get all their food thrown in for that. Opting out means you PAYD, and guys who are living off base can also PAYD. The contractors make their bucks and the singlies who want to eat on their own can do so. Seemed to work alright, but the food is a tad expensive if you were paying up front for it. (Dinner worked out at about 13CAD, so say about 5.50 or so?)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Chaps

There have been warnings about this lunacy for a while. We were warned on this site many times about "the contractors" wanting to take over all bars on station to make SAYS work. This means that your Mess (all of them) will be run on a commercial basis by the contractor. That means they get some of the profit that used to go towards subsidising your functions!!

Please note that the Gp Capt in charge of Project Athena got an MBE (or was it an OBE) for making this project work. And let's not forget she has a vested interest in making it work - promotion rests upon it even if the vast majority do not want it!!

And if any of you think that the AFB are going to reject this now, it's too late. They all believe that we all want PAYD and because the infrastructure money is robbed each year to pay off the MRA4 or Astute or FRES overspends there is no money to update the Messes so they have to find a way of making it work. You asked for it, you are going to get it, even if it is yet another nail in the coffin of Service life.:( Goodbye to Sqn bars and beer calls. Is it goodbye to the Summer Ball and the Dining-In night? Time will tell.

[Yeller_Gait]

A point brief from OC xxx Sqn was circulated around Wadd a short while ago extoling the virtues of Athena. Unfortunately I hit the delete button before the ink was dry on the screen as it was a load of party line crap that had been written to please his(?) boss.

Surely someone here still has a copy, as it will provide a good explanation of what Athena is intended to provide, rather than what it will actually do.

Y_G

[vecvechookattack]

I have to agree with fellow prunner Bismarck on this one. PAYD at Yeovilton has been a resounding success. The food is fab, cheap and plentiful....if anyone would like to pop over for lunch then can I suggest you try the curry lunch on a Tuesday....outstanding VFM.



However......on a different tack. Yeovilton ATC have just introduced the most complicated, confusing and down right dangerous procedure for Out of Hours operations. Essentially, if you want to fly out of hours you need to put in a request in triplicate, 3 weeks in advance, beg forgiveness from Little F for even daring to use his airfield OOH, inform the glider club 2 weeks prior to the event....use the Glider club frequency (even at Night in shi££y weather) and then and only then will the airfield open for you...what a bizzare way to run an airfield.... Still, even that is easier than trying to book a Bagrat for a night flying meal....now that is completely impossible.

[Widger]

VecVeccock,

Once again your comments on this fora demonstrate your complete lack of any grasp of reality.

On the subject of PAYD, it is of iterest that your allowance for lunch (£1.20 I think) only covers soup and a roll, which is about 30-40p. So the contractor makes a profit. If you want a proper lunch, you have to pay extra, so the contractor makes a profit. I am not against the contractor making a profit as such but, they have to provide a meal that matches the allowance.

The food is NOT as good as before. Ice Cream after your lunch? where has that gone. Oh yes, you have to pay extra. To see how proper PAYD works, get a trip to Swanwick to see value and good food. This is however, a some expense in subsidy by the company.

I will treat your latter remarks with the contempt they deserve!

[blogger]

OK mess life so what.

I have for the last 18 years always had my own home most of the time at least 20 miles from the station gates. I choose to live this way so my kids get a good school my wife can work without commuting to far to work.

So why is it that I have to pay mess fee's every month for a mess I never go in to or use? I cant remmember the last time I went on a visit to another station and did stay in the mess (they are always full and you end up in a hotel 15 miles away).

Messess As far I would would like to see if you live in then pay to use it. If you live out then give me the choice not to use it or fund it.

Every mess function should fund in full itself, not using my money to fund an Xmas or Summer drinking binge for a few.

Why am I robbbed every month against my will to pay for somethink I never use. It stinks..........

[BellEndBob]

I like the American system of Clubs. If you use it you pay for it. Your choice. I object to paying monthly subs for a facility that I hardly get the chance to use and is light years behind reality. Mess Life? Not anymore. Todays young Officers have money in their pockets, cars, houses etc and would far rather put on a pair of jeans and slope off to the nearest theme pub than stand, in shirt and tie, in a stuffy Mess Bar listening to people like Beagle telling them how much better things were in the 1920's!

The sooner they are gone the better.

[TOPBUNKER]

To which do you refer ... ?

The Messes, the Beagles or both?

[Roland Pulfrew]

BEB

When was the last time you were in a Mess? Shirt and Tie??? Haven't worn a tie in the Mess in years, except on the very rare occasion that Red Flag is in force. And as to the other comments about "young officers and theme pubs" then again you are wide of the mark. Many of our messes are remote from "theme pubs", actually just remote, what then?

And blogger you are part of the club, don't like the rules of belonging? Leave! Your choice. You are not "robbbed", you choose to live remotely from your base, so do I, some 80 miles remote so I have to live in, like many others. It's not just new to the service personnel that live in. Many of us have chosen to do exactly what you have done, but because the Service chooses to post us a long way from our chosen home we cannot commute. Why should we have to subsidise a commercial profit making organisation because HMT does not fund the Armed Forces sufficiently?

You seem to be missing the point here this is not just about the 3 messes on base, this is about your Sqn tea bar and your Sqn bar - these are under threat as well as traditional mess life. but then blogger you just don't care do you?

[BellEndBob]

Roland.
I think you are confusing 'Mess' with food and accom. Yes, it is the Livers In home and that is exactly as it should be and how it should be run. Decent(?) living quarters should remain subsidised due to the nature of the job and lack of environmental choice.
As to food. If I stay anywhere else in the world, long or short term, I pay for what I eat. I do not throw hard earned sheckles into the pot so that Wg Cdr Twice Divorced can have a bit of cheddar with his coffee. If the food is not up to standard I refuse to pay and make a complaint. Said company either changes its ways or goes bust.
As to functions. Again, I choose when and how I want to socialise and how much I am prepared to pay. I accept that there are numerous occasions when I will need to trot out to host visitors and that goes with the turf.
As to travelling. The youngsters on this station regularly travel 35 miles for a pint and an oggle. I do not think there are that many stations left that are so remote that there is not a pub or similar within driving distance. I stand ready to be corrected.
Point taken on dress. However, difficult to relax when you are surrounded by all the ranks from Plt Off to Gp Capt.
So, make it a proper pay as you use club. If you want me in outside of normal working commitments, make it attractive or I will go elsewhere.
Tea Bars. Sorry, but in any other big organisation you will be lucky to get a vending machine.

The bottom line however, is that having just come behind 20 other developed countries with regard to child poverty, education and behaviour you will not find too many politicians (or 'public') sympathetic to retaining an exclusive club for Officers or SNCO's.

Finally, to head off the 'if you don't like it chump, then leave'. My papers went in just after my third stint in the sun. Out, hopefully, beginning of next year, just after my 4th trip to the East!

TopBunker.

The answer is 'both'.

[Grimweasel]

BellEndBob

With a relpy like that I can't see that you'd be a great loss to the service. Good luck in your new life, but for us traditionalists here, we quite like the service way of life and traditions.
I can't believe that anyone could be so non-plus about our ethos and history. The reason we are lacking so much funding is because HMG would rather give it away on senseless 'community' programmes for do-gooders etc. If we had a government that stood up to all this PC crap that goes on now a days then perhaps we wouldn't be in this predicament?

This is a serious erosion of service life and all that tosh about others looking in not wanting to fund it etc should spend a week on Ops in the field. I'm sure they wouldn't begrudge us the facility after that. It's their choice to work for a 9 to 5 PLC and go home every night. We don't have that luxury because some of us are still proud to fight and serve for our country and the very people who wish to see the services trodden into the ground through financial jealousy!!
:ugh:

[cooheed]

To quote Grimweasel;

Super PAYD indeed. Contract out all messing / bars / club bars etc. Something about 5 key areas, concerning civilianising the PEdO branch. All minor works etc for Gyms / Messes / Club bldgs etc will be financed thru the money made by hiring out the mess / facilities. So you want a dinner night in the mess, sorry Sir XBN PLC are in that night. U go to the Gym at lunch to find all the equipment being used by Jo Civi from down the town!

If Grimweasel is correct, can somebody enlighten me to the security implications of letting every man and his dog to use facilities, especially messes, inside the wire?

[toddbabe]

well said coo, me thinks this has been blown out of all proportion, I see nothing but good out of PAYD, flexibility for those living in has been what people have been wanting for years.
It's nothing new either Cottesmore trialled the original PAYD some ten/fifteen years ago if my memory serves me correct.

[vecvechookattack]

Widger...VecVeccock,

Once again your comments on this fora demonstrate your complete lack of any grasp of reality.

On the subject of PAYD, it is of iterest that your allowance for lunch (£1.20 I think) only covers soup and a roll, which is about 30-40p. So the contractor makes a profit. If you want a proper lunch, you have to pay extra, so the contractor makes a profit. I am not against the contractor making a profit as such but, they have to provide a meal that matches the allowance.

The food is NOT as good as before. Ice Cream after your lunch? where has that gone. Oh yes, you have to pay extra. To see how proper PAYD works, get a trip to Swanwick to see value and good food. This is however, a some expense in subsidy by the company.

I will treat your latter remarks with the contempt they deserve!
I wonder which mess you belong to...??? maybe the WO & SR is like that but the Wardroom is V V good. As a Liver-in I am financially better off and the food is just as good.

[Wrathmonk]

PAYD is going to hit those who are used to "healthy" portions (size wise) particularly when you get charged per round of toast, slab of butter or glass of orange juice at breakfast (for instance). The days of self service bacon butties are long gone!

In terms of dining in nights the biggest issue is the overtime that kicks in at midnight. But if that means the speeches are shorter to get to the bar earlier than its got to be a good thing.:ok:

[cooheed]

Gotta agree Wrath, the days of people getting fat/fatter with my cash, going, has got to be a healthier option

[blogger]

Roland Pulfrew And blogger you are part of the club, don't like the rules of belonging? Leave! Your choice. You are not "robbbed", you choose to live remotely from your base, so do I, some 80 miles remote so I have to live in, like many others. It's not just new to the service personnel that live in. Many of us have chosen to do exactly what you have done, but because the Service chooses to post us a long way from our chosen home we cannot commute. Why should we have to subsidise a commercial profit making organisation because HMT does not fund the Armed Forces sufficiently?

I choose not to use the mess then it is robbery that I have to pay for it.

As you say if I don't like the rules leave I have left the mess I never use it so why do I still have to pay for it ??? Come on answer that. Don't give me that it goes with the rank ........har har har.

Messess are for old has beens that need to be jacked up to look good and who like the stupid rules that go with them. Scrap them or make those who live in them pay for them in full.

[philrigger]

;)
toddbabe
.................... Cottesmore trialled the original PAYD some fifteen years ago if my memory serves me correct.

The first trials that I can remember were while I was stationed at RAF Episkopi, Cyprus during the period 1970 -1973. Although it was a different system that was on trial then, (God I feel old) for those who wanted to eat in the messes it was a crap experiment. I suspect it is not much better now. As most of the services are now stationed in UK the choice of where to purchase their food is not such a problem. Also we were not permitted any food in the accommodation and a fridge would have been a bit of a give-a-way.





'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'