Implied zone transit clearance??

[mccourtm]

While going on a local trianlge nav ex flight from my home airfield which happens to be in class D airspace, but the turning points on the route are outside of controlled a/s, I'm told to report at the various turning points. When I commence the last leg (which is mainly outside of controlled a/s)I'm told to report at a vrp that's inside of controlled a/s near the airfield.
Am I to assume from this that I have been given clearance to tranit the airspace??

[tonyhalsall]

Sounds to me that you are retaining your ATC approach (or Tower) coverage throughout the exercise so I don't think that you are 'assuming' anything - you have been under the control of ATC throughout the exercise and if anything the zone has been extended to the extremes of your exercise turning points.

Then again I could be completely wrong.

[mccourtm]

You're right. I'm remaining on the same frequency throughout and recieving FIS.

[Blinkz]

If that happened to me then I wouldn't assume it, I would ask and confirm if I had clearance.

[IO540]

This kind of thing (an implicit clearance through CAS) is quite common, though more common abroad (where transits are generally much easier to get) than in the UK. You can fly all the way through France for example without ever getting one "clearance" through Class D - they aren't bothered.

It's best to always call them up with "G-XXXX confirm cleared through CAS on route XXX-YYY". That puts the ball in their court.

If you are on a radar service then it hardly matters though.

[stray10level]

You dont actually say who it is you are reporting to!
It may be your base airfield, who has an arangement for entry into the controlled airspace in which it resides without the need for comms with the relevant ATC unit. I am thinking Denham, who are within the Heathrow zone but are allowed to enter/exit via northern routes without contact with Heathrow Director. So if you were to do a mini nav/ex from there to the north you would stay on base frequency and no clearance is required for re-entry!
Which airfield are we talking of here?

[mccourtm]

Home airfield is EGAD which is in Belfast City class D a/s

[scooter boy]

I thought it might be Galway trying to lure you into their zone (like a mermaid onto the rocks) so that they could hit you with their (rather extraordinary) VFR transit charge!

SB;)

[dublinpilot]

I thought it might be Galway trying to lure you into their zone (like a mermaid onto the rocks) so that they could hit you with their (rather extraordinary) VFR transit charge!



:D

Actually all controlled airspace in the Republic of Ireland is class C (bar some area where light aircraft rarely venture which is class A). We don't have any class D.

mccourtm's post did confuse me given his location and the class D reference :confused: but he's clarified that now :)

and if anything the zone has been extended to the extremes of your exercise turning points.

As much as they would like to, I don't believe ATC have the authority to extend the coverage of their control zone as and when they feel like it ;)


As to the original question, I sometimes get a similar thing at my home airfield (Dublin) when arriving back from a cross country.....told to report a point inside the zone when I'm outside and haven't been explicitly cleared in. If it's obvious to me that the clearance is implicit, then I usually preface my read back with "Understand cleared into the zone at xxxx report............." . At this point the ATC'er usually clarifies and confirms that I am cleared into the zone.

If there is any doubt in my mind at all, then I take IO540's approach and directly ask if I am actually cleared into the zone at this point.

dp

[englishal]

This thing is very common in my experience. It is normal to receive a :

"XYZ radar, GABCD 10 north with zulu for landing"
"GABCD XYZ radar roger, QNH1013, Expect runway 26 report airfield in sight"
"GABCD wilco"

.....where no express class D entry clearance is given. In the past I have queried and asked "confirm GABCD is cleared into XYZ class delta", and have always received a "GABCD cleared into class delta, report airfield in sight".....but now don't bother. I would if there was any ambiguity.

[Toadpool]

"XYZ radar, GABCD 10 north with zulu for landing"
"GABCD XYZ radar roger, QNH1013, Expect runway 26 report airfield in sight"
"GABCD wilco"
Sorry, but in my view this is lax and lazy controlling. In the UK, once you have left controlled airspace you are not entitled to re-enter unless specifically cleared to do so, unless there are standing agreements between your flying organisation and the ATCU controlling the airspace. If such agreements were in place I would expect there to be conditions applied, such as a specific route to follow, and/or maximum level. If this clearance is not forthcoming, then as others have said, it is best to clarify that you have clearance when you read back. Unfortunately, a simple "wilco" is not enough.
Also under a FIS, you are not under the control of ATC, you are, as the name implies, in receipt of an information service only. You do not need to ask for any changes of level or heading. You are not required to make any reports, unless asked to.

[Chilli Monster]

Toadpool's right. Once you've left CAS you've left CAS and as such you need a proper clearance to re-enter. If you get this again you have to get it confirmed formally as a clearance so it's on the tapes.

It's lax - pure and simple, I wouldn't dream of doing it.

[Fuji Abound]

Yep, make sure you have the clearance, listen out for the magic of ".. .. you are cleared .. .." and if you dont get it ask.

The discipline is a good one because somewhere else you will make the same assumption, only to find that the controller feels strongly otherwise.

Be equally careful in France. It is even easier to assume you have been cleared. A good friend of mine thought he had, not least because he had called the unit concerned on a number of occasions without response, so assumed they were closed. He proceeded without the clearance. He was reminded of his transit when he received a letter from the CAA following up one form DGAC.

[IO540]

Yes, the French can be b***ers. They once, a few years ago, let me fly through a TRA while under a radar service, and 6 months later followed it up through the CAA :yuk: OTOH, they routinely clear you without using the word "cleared" through Class D (VFR).

I got around the latter by reading them the route as "N-XXXXX cleared on route A B C D" and then my back is covered for their tape. Usually their reply is "Roger".

[dsandson]

I fly from Ards and yeah, I'd agree always be sure you are cleared, and ask if you're not sure, even if getting a FIS.

Otherwise, just ask one of the instructors. They've always been very approachable to me, and have even said if you need to ask anything give them a call and if they're on the ground they'll do they're best.

Happy flying and I hope I'll see you around some day.

Dave

[tonyhalsall]

Hang on a minute - this has all got a bit complicated has iot not ??

The question was that ATC control was retained throughout the exercise - out of the zone and then back in again - so where is the issue?

If ATC asks you to report (for example) Base for 25 you might look a bit daft asking if that means you cleared to enter the zone

[Fuji Abound]

Not sure it has.

You are either cleared or not - it is only one word. Seems just as easy to say XXXXX is cleared to enter (re-enter) etc.

[dublinpilot]

The question was that ATC control was retained throughout the exercise
How can ATC control you outside controlled airspace? If you are receiving a a service from an approach unit then there is an assumption that you will follow their instructions unless you make it clear that you will not, but you are not being controlled. You are simply receiving a service. In fact my experience of Belfast (admittedly fairly limited) is that they generally tell you that you that you are on a flight information service the second you leave their zone.

you might look a bit daft asking if that means you cleared to enter the zone
You might also look a bit daft, when the controller complains that you entered controlled airspace without a clearance, if he was simply telling you where he wanted you to go once you were cleared in, but he hadn't actually cleared you in.


For example on the odd occasion returning to Dublin I would get a call like "XXX report Dunshaughlin not above 1000. We're quite busy at the moment so you can expect Broadmeadows hold for runway 29. But Dunshaughlin is your clearance limit at the moment."
Now Dunshaughlin at 1000 is outside the control zone. So I'm not cleared into the zone yet. Broad meadows and obviously runway 29 are inside the zone, where I'm not cleared yet.

Now supposing the controller, being busy, didn't say "But Dunshaughlin is your clearance limit at the moment." Could someone take the rest as an implied clearance into the zone? What if the R/t was really busy as they got to Dunshaughlin and couldn't get a word in? Would they continue into the zone for a minute or two until they could get a word in?

The only way to deal with this uncertainty is to either ask the controller what they mean, or to express your understanding of that the controller has just told you. The only person that looks a bit daft is the controller for not making it clear the first time. If enough people ask, then they will start to do it properly and give explicit clearances like they are supposed to.

dp

[englishal]

I got around the latter by reading them the route as "N-XXXXX cleared on route A B C D" and then my back is covered for their tape. Usually their reply is "Roger".
Good plan. In fact in future my reply for landing / transiting will be:

"GABCD cleared into XYZ class D, Wilco"......;)

This then ensures I have CMA.....I'm sure if it came to court, and the tapes were pulled, there'd be no case.

[mccourtm]

Thanks guys for your replies. I'm glad that I've sparked off a healthy disussion on this one.
I suppose the bottom line is "if in doubt shout" and don't take anything for granted.
BTW Dave, I too find the instructors in Ards very obliging and I usually do pick their brains when I'm there on a Saturday.
The good thing about posting on the web though is that we get a feel for how things operate from a broader spectrum of our colleagues in both the south and the mainland. Sometimes ATC can be a bit colloquial and of course I don't mean that procedures differ.
For example the text books would say that you can fly at 2100ft without clearance if CAS is from ground to 2000ft, however, good manners would suggest that you still look for a clearance.

Martin.

[dsandson]

Yeah Martin I know what you mean. Funnily enough I was thinking of the same thing when planning a nav flight just before you posted about this.

Anyway, its nice to have an idea of what to say when you're in doubt of your clearance... theres nothing that i hate more than my finger hovering over the ptt button wondering how to word a question!

Dave

[IO540]

For example the text books would say that you can fly at 2100ft without clearance if CAS is from ground to 2000ft, however, good manners would suggest that you still look for a clearance

Actually, no, they have no authority to issue a clearance in that case :)

It's good manners to call them up because (Brize Norton is a classic case, where I have flown many times overhead) they often have traffic about in the overlaying Class G, and they may indeed like to direct you about a bit.

It's one of those bizzare things. You could overfly Brize at 3600ft, non-radio, non-transponder, and I guess they have to assume you are above their airspace.

[High Wing Drifter]

I guess they have to assume you are above their airspace.
Primary radar can determine altitude. Is this information not included in civil displays?.

[Chilli Monster]

Primary radar can determine altitude.

What rubbish! No it can't - that's what Secondary radar (SSR) is there for.

The only primary radar that can detect altitide are purpose built height finders (conventional radars put on their sides) which can give the height on one aircraft (normally) by scanning up and down. They have to be rotated manually in Azimuth to physically point at the aircraft to achieve that.

The only other one is a phased array head such as the Military's PAR (Precision Approach Radar) which again will scan in a limited area only on the final approach.

[Fuji Abound]

I am not sure secondary is all that good when the traffic is overhead either - Chilli please correct me if I am wrong.

[Chilli Monster]

Depends where the secondary head is.

Not many airfields, civil and military, have their own SSR. Bournemouth does, but it's in the minority. Many civil airports pipe in data from NATS SSR heads. Bristol, Filton, Cardiff? from Clee Hill in Shropshire, East Mids & Humberside from Claxby on the Lincolnshire wolds. Waddington's SSR is at Scampton, Cranwell & Coningsby at Cranwell. So, although you may be overhead the airfield, you may not be in the SSR overhead (which will be a blindspot).

[Fuji Abound]

Chilli

Thanks for the clarrification.

Southend came to mind when I made the comment who usually say they cant see you in the overhead so I assume theirs is not pipe fed.

Is it the case that if it is a LARS unit the head is at the unit, or do some rely on piped in radar information?

[High Wing Drifter]

Hmmm. yeees, not entirely sure where I was coming from there Chilli :\

[Chilli Monster]

HWD - never mind, we all have brainstorm days!

Fuji - The primary radar head will always be on the airfield, it's just the secondary that's often "offset". The only variation is the likes of Thames radar, LTCC at West Drayton, plus the centres at Swanwick and Prestwick who use remote heads around the country.

[Fuji Abound]

Thanks Chilli.

- sorry for the thread drift.

[flower]

Just continuing the thread Drift, Cardiff has it's own SSR but also uses Clee Hill on it's long range planning display. We do lose SSR in the overhead with Cardiff SSR as it is based on the airfield but we have dispensation to use Clee Hill in the overhead for our en route traffic.

[mccourtm]

Actually, no, they have no authority to issue a clearance in that case

IO540, I agree with what your saying. We don't ask for clearance but rather let them know that we'll be crossing at 2100 ft.

I'm assuming then that when you ask for a zone tranist the reply is always
"G-XXXX cleared to transit zone not above 2000 feet" that this is because the CAS is only up to 2000 feet and that they have no control above this altitude??

[chrisbl]

The issue about cleared to ender CAS in different countries is interesting and practices vary.

In the US, to enter Class C and D two way radio contact only needs to be established (use of each others call signs). The word "cleared" is not necessary. However to enter class B a positive clearance is needed.

It seems to me that the UK operates class D like the US operate class B.

I dont know what the Irish rules are re class C or the French rules re Class D

[IO540]

It seems to me that the UK operates class D like the US operate class B

I think all of Europe does that, but different countries/units work it differently strictly.

No idea which one is departing from ICAO, but it's a bit academic.

[HR200]

The way I was taught is if there is any doubt, check! Airspace violations can be very serious. There is no harm asking if you are cleared to enter any airspace just before entering it.