Reclining seats send airline tempers soaring

[TheSailor]

Hello,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070209/us_nm/airlines_seats_dc

:)

Regards. http://photobucket.com/albums/v509/Bebermaur/th_bye.gif

[Bluejay]

:mad: I know it bugs me, at 6'3 any recline on the seat in front causes discomfort. The thing that really bugs me though is the lack of courtesy before reclining, people don't seem to ask they just do it! And when asked nicely if they wouldn't mind not reclining you either get ignored (pretending to be asleep) or pure arrogance and bloody mindedness! :ugh: :mad:

[BrummyGit]

I totally agree and would personally prefer the airlines to fix the seatbacks in the upright position for short haul flights where the seat pitch is usually more restrictive than long haul.

[teleport]

BrummyGit,
Excellent idea!
Airlines: pay attention.

[Lancelot37]

I know it bugs me, at 6'3 any recline on the seat in front causes discomfort. The thing that really bugs me though is the lack of courtesy before reclining, people don't seem to ask they just do it! And when asked nicely if they wouldn't mind not reclining you either get ignored (pretending to be asleep) or pure arrogance and bloody mindedness!
-----------------------------------------------------------

I'm the same height. I usually have my legs locked into the seat back in front so that the seat cannot be reclined. After several attempts the person in front usually gives up. I can't help being tall. It wasn't my choice.

I only do long haul, rarely short haul. Oddly I feel dizzie and sick if I recline my seat, but perfectly OK in the upright position to sleep. I only choose to fly with airlines who advertise a 34" pitch.

[EastMids]

or pure arrogance and bloody mindedness!
The one with pure arrogance and bloody mindedness is you. Whilst I accept its polite to have the seat upright at mealtimes, passengers pay for a seat that reclines (except on Ryanair!) - what right do you have to try to deny them that right at other times? Too tall? Not the person in front's problem - if you can't fit into an economy seat with the one in front of you reclined, fly business class.

Andy

[BOFH]

what right do you have to try to deny them that right at other times? Too tall?

Shortarse.

BOFH

[Avman]

A tad unfair and discriminatory EastMids! The real issue here is that in their quest to make profits from the masses, airlines just pack too many seats in too little space. They are the guilty party in all this. I think the idea of no recline for Y seats is a good one. I've said it before and I will continue saying it, there should be industry regulations on minimum allowable seat pitch and perhaps the same for recline options.

[garthicus]

May I suggest www.kneedefender.com (Although I cant seem to access the site right now) read about it here http://www5.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/04/04/bt.knee.defender/

Garth

[yvonnelynch]

i dont see the problem i am six one i pay for my seat and i have the right to use it as it was designed if you are a taller person go to the airport early and get a exit seat i was on 30 flights in 06 in every class 14 of the flights were transatlantic on one of my flights from bfs -ewr in economy on continental 757 we had our meal and after i put my seat back about 2 inches i went to sleep and about 1 hour later i started to get the knee in the back it went on for 10 minutes so i turned around and this this guy was no taller than me but he was fat he said hey assh..e put that seat forward i said touch the back of my seat again and i will put the assh..e outa u once we get through emmigration and that was that if you are flying economy get a exit or dry your eyes

[jack_essex]

Flying to New York last year, the minute the seat belt signs were off the women infront of me put her seat all the way back. Even when serving the meals her seat was still in the recline position. The FA even told her to put the seat up, then the min she had gone the seat went back again. When politely asking her to put the seat back just while we were eating she said that her company had not paid for her to go in business class. So was angry being in economy! LOL.

[Avman]

Yvonnelynch, it's not that you're not right but your attitude stinks! Read my post above. Don't take it out on the poor bloke behind you, take it out on the idiotic policy of the airline you fly on. Dismissing the tall guy simply by saying turn up early for an exit row seat is a dumb ill thought out statement. How many exit rows are there and in this day and age how many pax are in fact over 6 feet tall? How about a little courtesy instead of your brash macho agressive infantile attitude.

[silverelise]

Its just courtesy to have the seat upright during meal services and all the flights I can think of that I've been on make an announcement to have the seats upright and the CC enforce this as they serve the trays.

But outside of meal times - what they person in front does with their seat is up to them. If they want to recline it, so be it. They are not making the seat do anything it isnt designed to do.

[yvonnelynch]

avman as far as my statements being dumb and ill thought out there is 12 exit seats over wing on the 757s i be on most of the time and 6 seats at the bulkhead and most longhaul airlines have online booking and better extra leg room seats available for a little extra i you can read u will see that the guy behind me started to knee the back of my seat i never put my seat back until after meal time and so in my normal brash macho agressive infantile way catch a grip sir !!

[apaddyinuk]

Its amazing how many conflicts I have on flights over reclined seat backs!!! To be honest, its usually the icing on the cake after the battle through checkin, security, boarding and then not being allowed have a smoke onboard!!! Some people just explode when the person in front puts back their seats. Id love to think all passengers are polite enough to tell the passenger behind them that they are about to recline the seat but to be honest, I dont think I have ever witnessed it!!!! All I can do is tell the passenger that he/she is entitled to recline their seat also as the passenger in front has every right to recline theirs (and its true, I cannot tell a passenger not to recline their seats during the flight.,...not even at meal times, I can just ask them to!!!).

But during the meal services Im usually proactive in asking everyone to bring their seats up and it always works...fortunatley the vast vast vast majority of people are understanding during meal times.

As a 6ft tall crew member myself I hate flying longhaul as a passenger. Its such an issue with me and I just wish the heads involved would learn that they would actually be doing well (and perhaps justify the fares they charge on my airline) if they just took a row or two out of the planes and gave everyone a little more room! Wishful thinking!

Anyone seen those new Cathay Y class seats....GREAT IDEA!!!! Anyone have any experience of it???

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_GB/whatonboard/neweconomyclass#f5

[Avman]

Sorry Yvonne dear, your defence is flawed. Emergency rows are not allocated on line. Not everyone flies on B757s. I bet you there are more than 12 pax over 6 foot tall on any full B757 flight. I stick by what I said! And I say AGAIN, don't blame your discourteous fellow pax, blame the greedy couldn't-care-less-about-the-customers airlines!

[yvonnelynch]

avman dont dear me get ur facts right exit seats are available online 24 hours before dpt on most airlines i have sat in 16 a on continentals 757s at lest 10 times when flying coach look at seatguru .com u will see that is a exit seat! and if i felt the same about airlines as you i would take the bus

[TightSlot]

And I say AGAIN, don't blame your discourteous fellow pax, blame the greedy couldn't-care-less-about-the-customers airlines
I'm sorry, but I simply cannot follow the logic trail behind this? Maybe I'm being thick, but it seems to me:

An airline sells the customers a product, namely a seat. There are a choice of products/seats available, some being more expensive than others.
The customer then makes a decision as to which product to buy, or, if the product is not what is required, then makes a decision not to buy.
If the airline creates a product that does not reflect the market value of the price charged, that airline will eventually cease trading.

How is this greed? I'm missing something... The purchase of an economy seat entitles the customer to the purchased product, not a different, more expensive one. This is incidentally, the issue that I have with the knee defender mentioned previously. Notwithstanding the missing element of courtesy and consideration, the knee defender implicitly assumes that the rights of one individual take precedence over another, as a result of a commercial purchase. I have no doubt that there are a host of justifications given by the vendor and users of the product. I regard them as smoke and mirrors, designed to mask the fact that one person has decided that they want something, and everyone else can go hang!

P.S. posted as an individual, not a mod, so feel free to disagree!

[Bluejay]

EastMids Quote:
or pure arrogance and bloody mindedness!

The one with pure arrogance and bloody mindedness is you.

if you can't fit into an economy seat with the one in front of you reclined, fly business class

Thanks EastMids I appreciate your response and that is exactly the arrogance that I am on about, you just don't care wether your actions affect others or not. I do all that I can to ensure that I get a seat where I don't encounter people like you or yvonnelynch, early check-in, online checkin, get to the airport early etc etc etc, I have been very fortunate that by doing some of these things I have secured my desired seat or better, however there have been occaisions where this has not been possible.

Another example of arrogant attitudes and bloody mindedness:

Flew easyJet LGW-AMS (was with a party so not my first choice of carrier), unfortunatly ended up at the back of the aircraft. After takeoff pax in front reclined seat to fullest extent, therefore causing me discomfort, at no time did he ask if I minded (I even asked that he not recline so far!), he therefore ended up with two knees digging into his back! About half way through the flight he goes to the toilet, upon his return, he sits back down again and does the same thing, only this time he asks me if I was OK, I of course told him that with his seat fully back it was causing me discomfort (solution return to upright position or at least meet me halfway!), his reaction was to simply turn around and ignore the problem, he therefore got my knees in his back again.

The simple lesson here is ask me if I mind and we can come to a mutual agreement (i.e half recline etc), don't ask me and I will make you as uncomfortable as me!:ugh:

[Avman]

Tightslot, looking at your age, like me you must have experience of Y travel 20-30 years ago. In those days reclining seats in Y were not an issue because the seat pitch was adequate. Over the years airlines have crammed more and more seats in their Y cabins in an attempt to maximise yield whilst retaining competitive fares. Fine, and as you point out, we have a choice. But that's not the issue here. What I'm simply trying to point out is that if airlines want to succumb to the commercial pressures of more seats less space then they should seriously consider the seat recline issue which does cause exactly what the title of this thread suggests! I'd say that the above responses have in fact confirmed this. Finally, a large proportion of travellers cannot afford C or F class. Is this sufficient reason for them to endure hours of discomfort from a reclined seat in Y. Where's the logic in this train of thought? If airlines want to provide Y pax reclining seats then they should be responsible enough to ensure that any recline does not impact on passenger comfort. Finally, just for the record, I always fly C class on flights of 2 hours or more AT MY OWN COST.

[GANNET FAN]

Quote
The simple lesson here is ask me if I mind and we can come to a mutual agreement (i.e half recline etc), don't ask me and I will make you as uncomfortable as me
Unquote

Agree with you 100%
At 6'4" I have more trouble than most (width is not a problem) in trying to be comfortable in seats on shorthaul. I think most large / tall people are usually aware of their size and take this into account in situations such as this. As a matter of course, I will always ask the person behind if they mind if I put my seat back and I have never had any problems.

But for the selfish and arrogant and those with no manners or consideration for others, (and there are some posters here who seems to fit this description, to be sure) who just jam their seat back onto my knees when there is absolutely zero inches between seat back and knees, then I have no intention of doing the splits just to accommodate them.

[apaddyinuk]

Oh Dear,
Yvonne, You are not one of this new ladies of the Celtic Tiger who feel that they can talk down to all and sundry now are you?

Im afraid your logic is very much flawed....not everyone flies on a 757, not everyone has access to the internet within 24hours of their flight, not everyone despite doing all they can will get the exit row or bulkhead and at the end of the day...even if you are on the exit row...you too will have some poor cretin sitting behind you when you decide to recline...but its clear you couldnt care less. I would love to see an airline introduce a policy whereby the exit rows are kept only for those of 6ft or more however many would consider this discrimination without realising that putting a 6ft person into a normal seat just as discriminating!!!

I would actually state that the problem these days is not that the airlines have reduced the seat pitch so much as people are just becoming ruder and ruder to each other then they used to be, being Irish I notice it more and more in my country. But I wont preach here, not the right place for it!

[Avman]

Oh, and Yvonne dear, avman dont dear me get ur facts right exit seats are available online 24 hours before dpt on most airlines
A few may do but many don't. It seems that your vast wealth of experience and expertise is drawn exclusively from travel with Continental Airlines on their B757.

[GwynM]

In general I have no problems with people reclining seats in front, and as long as they put them up for meals, it's no real problem. I have short legs, so have no problem with the leg room, but too many years supporting the UK brewing industry means it's not always possible to get the table down with the seat down in front.

The only time I've had a problem was when I was unlucky enough to be in the back row of a 737, where the seats didn't recline, and the tw@ts infront reclined theirs so I couldn't even hold a book in front of me. However, my wife going to the loo every 5 minutes and banging their seats got the point across (and it was only 3 hours of discomfort)

[yvonnelynch]

APADDYINUK and AVMAN read tightslots post its pretty simple u get what u pay for in this world and this is not the place 2 get personal.grow up

[Avman]

grow up
Excellent retort Yvonne, for one who said:
i said touch the back of my seat again and i will put the assh..e outa u once we get through emmigration
I bow to your maturity, excellent punctuation, grammar and spelling :hmm:

[yvonnelynch]

what did i say about getting personal my spelling might be crap but whats that got to do with reclining seats ??

[apaddyinuk]

I think he was referring to the irony of your "grow up" comment!!!
I think if you reread my last posting you will appreciate the grown up approach I took to it and perhaps even learn a thing or two!
I look forward to what will no doubt be a delightfully colourful response!

P.S....Tightslots opinion is only one rule of thought albeit one I actually do agree with. However is that an excuse to rude to your fellow passenger? I think not!

[DrKev]

From the article linked in the first post - "Feeling outraged as that airline seat crashes back into your knees, taking sleep or that breakfast coffee with it? You're not alone."

Rubbish!

Any airliner I have flown on have seats that pivot off the same joint as the food tray. That means that the food tray does not move as it is not attached to the reclining part of the seat! It also means that leg room is not affected unless your knees are in such a position that they are higher than the pivoting joint.

True, having a seat reclined does bring the top of the seat closer to the passenger behind, and is not always a comfortable proposition for some passengers. However, basic courtesy and manners should be observed by all passengers. Wanna talk about bad manners? Kicking or punching another passengers seat back is exceptionally bad manners in my book. It is not a clever, amicable, or adult manner in which to deal with an issue.

Bear in mind, as already mentioned, that on some routes people specifically choose carriers with reclining seats, often paying higher prices for the privilege than might be available elsewhere. Personally, I find sleeping in upright seats very uncomfortable. Predominantly working evenings and nights and travelling days make sleep, and therefore reclining seats, important to me on aircraft. Passengers who find reclining seats limits their comfort would do well to think about choosing carriers without reclining seats if that option is available to them. If that option is not available to them, try asking politely.

[yvonnelynch]

i am bored with the pair o ye .. game over, ball bust!!!

[pacer142]

Any airliner I have flown on have seats that pivot off the same joint as the food tray. That means that the food tray does not move as it is not attached to the reclining part of the seat! It also means that leg room is not affected unless your knees are in such a position that they are higher than the pivoting joint.


Mine are, as are those of many tall people. In order to use the tray, I do need to move into a slightly unnatural position.

However, I do recognise that others have the right to use their seats. I would say that the only solution is common courtesy. To everyone, before reclining your seat, look behind you to see if knees are present. If they are, either recline very slowly, or tell the person behind you plan to do so. They can, as can I, move into another position to allow you to do so.

I also think there's no need for short-haul recline at all, though, just as it isn't provided on most British trains, and that all airlines should copy Ryanair and EasyJet's newer planes by not providing it at all on flights of a couple of hours (let's say anything a normal two-class 737 or A319/320 would be used on).

Neil

[Nil Flaps]

Loved the Cathay seat recline idea, all airlines should follow suit. Great way to calm easily frayed tempers. There's enough tension and irritations on flights (long-haul especially) so one less conflict is a welcome change.

However, I thought the knee-defender gadget, while clever, is just a sh1tfight waiting to happen.

There's nothing worse than a discourteous, self-centred passenger. While tall people may think it's not cricket to recline without the person in front first checking for knees behind them/warning passenger behind them in advance of the oncoming recline/coming to an amicable halfway-house arrangement with person behind, similarly, it is not cricket for tall people armed with a knee-defender to not discuss it with the person in front before they decide to use it.

As others have said, if a seat reclines, a passenger should have the option to use it. If a tall person removes that option by way of a knee-defender before showing the person in front the same courtesy of discussing it first, that makes him no better than the person in front who does not discuss things with the person behind before he reclines.

In reality, I hope the airlines see sense and ban these gadgets if they see them in use on their aircraft. They will only cause more problems.

I understand it's frustrating for tall (and short, pedantic) folk to be battered by seat-backs but using a knee-defender to increase one passenger's comfort will also serve to deny someone else of theirs, so this daft knee-defender will only ever be bought by similar, self-centred, discourteous, and above all hypocritical passengers trying to get their own back. The knee-defender will only serve to increase tensions between passengers.

The airlines (and their ever-decreasing seat pitching policies) will never admit blame for creating the short vs tall/can I recline or can't I recline arguments, but it really doesn't matter, especially if you are caught up in a situation like this yourself. You just want it to be resolved so you can 'enjoy' your flight. It just takes a bit of decency, consideration, calm attitude and a bit of give and take to resolve the situation. And if a compromise cannot be met, or your fellow passenger is being difficult or aggressive, call Cabin Crew, and let them mediate to help get the situation resolved.

I can't stand selfishness from airline passengers. Makes my blood boil. My MIL is the worst. On a flight from Perth-HongKong she embarrassed the hell out of my poor wife the entire trip. She committed the cardinal sin of reclining on the guy behind while he was still eating, := and she also managed to continually piss the guy off in front of her for good measure too. Whenever she (frequently) needed the loo, she grabbed the back of his headrest to haul her very-firmly wedged fat arse out of her seat, making him dip violently backwards every time. Poor chap must've had the patience of a saint because each time she did it she also grabbed and pulled his hair with her fingertips and he only ever quietly moaned about her to his wife! MIL was completely oblivious, my wife was absolutely mortified. On her return home, rather than telling me all about her holiday, my wife ranted about my MIL's embarrassing, non-existant airline passenger etiqette instead!

Lucky I wasn't on the flight, I'd've given her a right (quiet) mouthful, bloody vacant old fart. Sorry for the thread drift but I do feel better now. Why are MIL's such a massive pain in the arse, even more so when you're stuck on a frigging plane with them?! :*

[Clarence Oveur]

The Cathay seat might not infringe on the space behind when reclined. But as the seat pan moves forward so does your knees. I can see people moaning already.

Anyway, I completely agree with TightSlot. If you are not happy with a product stop buying it. To expect others to give up part of the product they have purchased in order to improve yours, is, and let's be honest, selfish.

[Avman]

To expect others to give up part of the product they have purchased in order to improve yours, is, and let's be honest, selfish.

:ugh:

Nearly all of you continue to discuss this as a ME (wanting to recline) v YOU (not wanting me to recline) debate. The ME brigade call the YOU brigade selfish and vv. Then we get the easy copouts: "catch the bus" & "don't buy the product" chucked in. The message I'm trying to promote is that YES if an airline provides a seat that reclines you should be entitled to recline it to its maximum, but equally NO this feature should not infringe on basic passenger comfort. I think that's a pretty fair and simple compromise.
You're all too busy defending your "right to recline" v "knees in the back" corners to see that the real culprit in all this is quite simply the airline! So stop getting at one another and focus on complaining for both sides of this issue directly to the airlines.

[Globaliser]

However, I thought the knee-defender gadget, while clever, is just a sh1tfight waiting to happen.I think the "Knee Defender" has been banned by many airlines, anyway.

[CHIVILCOY]

I think the "Knee Defender" has been banned by many airlines, anyway.

It has in the USA where it started I believe - causing too many punchups:*

Sorry for all you six footer plus pax out there but I agree with the "right to recline brigade" except during meals. If I was six feet plus I certainly wouldn't fly economy longhaul and I wouldn't fly at all if I couldn't afford a better seat pitch ticket.

[gavin360]

i agree with tightslot and yvonne lynch almost everyone will know at the time of booking the airlines seat pitch so if you go cattle class dont be bitchin when a seat goes back!! you get what you pay for .

[Hotel Tango]

you get what you pay for :confused:

Nowhere in the airline's advertising blurp do I see "when travelling in economy you may be subjected to hours of agonising discomfort should the passenger in front of you wish to recline their seat. This is what you paid for".

Give me a break :ugh:

[apaddyinuk]

And then dont start argueing like little children when it does happen!

[gavin360]

economy is all there is 2 it dry up

[DrKev]

Nowhere in the airline's advertising blurp do I see "when travelling in economy you may be subjected to hours of agonising discomfort should the passenger in front of you wish to recline their seat. This is what you paid for".

Give me a break

Give who a break?? "Agonising discomfort", aside from being somewhat self-contradictory, is a ridiculous overstatement.

How about this?
"We offer reclining seats to all our passengers as part of our customer service package. When travelling in economy class some of our taller and/or larger passengers may experience discomfort should the passenger in front of them wish to recline their seat. We remind our customers that all passengers have equal rights to comfort and service they paid for, no matter what side of a reclining seat they may be on."

[yvonnelynch]

right on drkev

[James 1077]

I'm 6'6" and hate it when people recline their seats in front of me as it makes things even more cramped in Y class. But I don't complain and I don't do the old knee trick (at least not on purpose but sometimes I really can't avoid it as my knees just get in the way).

At the end of the day the person in front of me has paid for their seat to recline, as have I. I generally don't do it as I know how annoying it is but sometimes I have no choice (if the seat is so far back in my lap that I am looking at the top of the head of the person in front of me).

What does bug me though is people reclining their seats during meal times as that will normally stop me from being able to eat (as the table won't go flat - although sometimes that doesn't matter as it won't go flat even when the seat is upright; ie Lufthansa).

But I pay my cheap price so I can't complain - but what I can do is fly with people who give me more for the same or similar cheap price (which is why I don't fly Lufthansa any more as on a long trip it becomes uncomfortable not being able to eat!).

Although it would also be nice to be able to get money back from the amount that goes into inflight entertainment as I can't watch that even when the seat in front is upright due to the angle I have to look at the screen - oh for the days of the single screen in the middle of the plane!!! :-)

[pacer142]

i agree with tightslot and yvonne lynch almost everyone will know at the time of booking the airlines seat pitch so if you go cattle class dont be bitchin when a seat goes back!! you get what you pay for .


Seat pitch is not the only determiner of useful/comfortable space. It also involves seatback thickness, angle of rake/recline of the seat back, seat base height and position of the pivot to name but four.

For example, KLM has two types of seating in its 737-300s, the new and the old. While both are tight (same pitch), the new seating has thinner, more rounded backs and a higher seat base. This means the new seating is just about tolerable, while the old is painful even when not reclined.

Similarly, on the rails, I can sit comfortably in a Virgin Voyager seat, but not in an old Mk3 seat on an IC125, despite the latter having a *far* more generous actual pitch.

[MidgetBoy]

I make it so they can't recline because my knees are blocking it. And then after awhile they make the assumption it doesn't work. So...... I win.

[Tmbstory]

They should be restricted in the amount of recline available so that both parties get the best of a bad situation.

I was once in a seat where the armrest on the aisle could not be lowered and with the seat in front on full recline, it would be extremely difficult to exit in an emergency,in the time set.


Tmb

[ZFT]

I would suggest that many of these posts reflect the declining standards of passengers in general.

In the early 70s the B747 layout on many carriers was worse than today, no business class and 10 abreast in economy.

I paxed 100s of long haul sectors and cannot recall any issues with seats being reclined. Fellow pax then used to show both consideration and courtesy.

Today courtesy is out of the window.

[Skintman]

It is not arrogant ot disrespectful to recline your seat. They are designed just for that. No one likes the person in front of them to recline their seat, but it is supposed to be done.:ok:

I would agree though that it is not helpful during meals, but to say that it is arrogant is just silly.:=

Skintman
:confused:

[VAFFPAX]

As a tall passenger, I can weigh in on both sides of the argument here. Seats that recline are designed for just that - reclining. I do like to recline my seat when I am trying to catch a nap (except on short haul where there's practically no time for one), but I do detest having someone simply reclining their seat without checking.

Thankfully I've been spoilt on my flights lately - I check in early to get the first seat row, which means I get the legroom of business without payng for a business class seat, and I don't have to recline my seat. On long-haul I check in early also, then stump up the cash for an emergency exit seat.

What annoys me though is that airlines do try to squeeze as many SLF as possible into a plane (understandably), but not taking the needs of all customers into account (imposible to do). But giving people a bit more legroom would be nice.

S.

[PAXboy]

Being of average height, this is not such an issue for me but let me throw a little JetA1 on the smouldering cigarette butt left in the toilet ...

The reason that I rarely recline the seat is that it makes so little difference. Even on long haul, the very short distance that it reclines makes almost no physical difference to the body - it seems to me. The effect of the recline, I often think, is more in the mind.

Unfortunately, the people in front of me usually consider those few degrees of recline to be vital to their way of life.

Airlines greedier? Only because people will not pay for more space. AA rather famously had a biiiiig campaign to remove Y rows and open up the pitch. TV adverts showed them physically throwing seats off the machine. So - rewarded with extra bookings? Millions flocking to get onto these new open fields? As I understand it, they have now (quietly) reversed this policy.

Predominantly, people do not want to pay more money but will bitch about the lack of space. Given the recession that the UK and USA is now in, do not expect this to improve any time soon. If you travel SH from the UK, use RyanAir as their seats do not recline.

[Coquelet]

No reclining seats on Ryanair ...

[Cool Wavy NG738]

An age old problem that will never be properly solved unless everyone puts in Cathay Pacific style "Y" class seats. As cabin crew I see this all of the time, but the bottom line is that the customer pays for a certain class of travel, should make educated choices before they book a certain seat, and if that choice is an economy seat with a recline button they should be able to use that facilty outside of meal services. However I would say that reclining should be done in a gentle, considerate manner.

As an aside when I am travelling as a fare paying customer and 6' 2" tall and someone in front of me reclines I don't get into a child like strop over it. Also if you are one of the many that choose to knee-dig me when sat behind when I recline even slightly, when you next visit the toilet expect to return from the toilet with my seat reclined fully.

It's my ticket, my seat for those hours, and my choice to relax in it as best I can, you also have a recline button you can use outside meal services.
And it's worth noting that seats that don't recline are generally issued last - so get to the airport earlier next time, no good trying to say you haven't got a decent seat when there are 260+ seats and you/your party are 258, 259 and 260 to check in on the manifest.

Cool Wavy NG738 leaves to put on his flameproof jacket - lol

[EI-CFC]

No reclining seats on Ryanair ...

One of the most sensible decisions they (or any airline) has made in the last few years IMHO

[Tarq57]

Totally agree there isn't really enough room in most econ layouts.
But to blame your fellow passengers is a bit illogical (though I have seen some fairly rude and uncompromising behaviour at times.)
To blame the airline is a somewhat valid argument. I would have thought it the airlines' responsibility to make sure the product suited the intended use.
If, however, the airline can not stay in business because its product puts it at a significant commercial disadvantage, who is left to blame?

We (en masse) voted, with our wallets, for these traveling conditions. I see it as a great shame when an airline (as referenced above in PAXboy's post) tries to improve inflight conditions, but can't maintain the service because of inadequate patronage.
Personally, I'd prefer to spend a few extra $ for a comfy seat..don't care too much about IFE or other distractions. Since such an offer no longer exists around these parts, I tend to fly less often, 'coz it takes a lot longer to save for a business seat.
It's really just a sign of the times. Overpopulation, shortages (eg: water, oil, clean air, space, energy) etc, stress is just going to continue to increase, I'm afraid. This is just one sign of it. Try to develop a coping strategy.

[qwertyplop]

I flew to New Zealand last year with SIA and while the space in economy was OK, at 6'3 I did get a bit peeved when the lady in front reclined her seat while I was eating my dinner.

I politley asked if she might unrecline it so I could continue eating but she simply told me to :mad: off and not to bother her again, her partner also decided he fancied a bit of this and was straight out of chair and in my face. I'm on this flight with my wife and two girls, both under ten I might add.

Being a big chap, I'm not going to accept this, so I say politely and with a smile on my face that this response in unacceptable and that the seat will go back up while I eat my dinner. The guy seeing how big I am decides to sit down at this point and put his headphones on. I ask her again and this time she complies with my instruction to lift the seat before, as I said to her, I do it for you. He says nothing.

CC come over and ask if everything is OK, I say that I believe it is, explain what happened and thank her for her attention.

She then moves these two :mad: to business class.

:ugh:

[radeng]

Airlines and aircraft manufacturers appear to have studied the way slaves were packed into ships for transport across the Atlantic, and have then used the same principles for packing passengers, especially in economy.

[teleport]

As much as I hate longhaul economy class flights, the analogy is wrong. Just plain wrong.

[Final 3 Greens]

Saw a prime example on Sunday last.

Guy gets into window seat in last row of C on A320, as soon as the aircraft starts rolling, he puts down window blinds and seat back.

Sleeps all the way through the meal service and the person behind has to eat breakfast with a fully reclined seat, in fact he kept the seat fully back for the whole 3 hour flight.

I thought that was extremely selfish.

[amanoffewwords]

I had the exact same scenario all the way from Cape Town 3-4 years back - guy in front was asked by CC to at least let me eat without his seat on my face but oh no prima donna wouldn't have it so he spent 90% of the flight trying to force the seat back as much as possible and I kept on kicking it every time I sensed he was about to fall asleep. The crew I must say were next to useless on that occasion. Haven't flown since funnily enough :rolleyes:

[CirrusF]

The airlines could help themselves by offering the emergency exit seats to tall people at checkin or embarkment. It would avoid a lot of aggravation for the cabin crew. I'm too tall to sit straight in standard seats, and so have to sit with my legs sideways, jutting into the personal space of my neighbours (who justifiably complain), or out into the aisle where they interfere with cabin crew.

On one recent Easyjet flight, as I was embarking, the attendant took one look at me and said "you're a tall chap, we'll but you in the emergency seats row". That was great service and something I wish would be done more often.

[BurglarsDog]

Despite the usual requests from Ezy CC to put em upright, the seats on their
A319's dont recline.
I have never considered it an issue either -even on Long Haul. I have always put my seat back "a bit" but not fully, whenever I felt the need and never thought to ask or advise those behind, and accepted the fact that if the person in front wanted to recline on me then thats their choice and I would just have to live with it.

Homeard bound Downunder on the A380 later this week so it will be interesting to see how the room in economy compares to the 777 and 747.
Will now be a little more courteous / aware when reclining though after reading this thread!

DogGone:ok:

[VAFFPAX]

The airlines could help themselves by offering the emergency exit seats to tall people at checkin or embarkment. It would avoid a lot of aggravation for the cabin crew. I'm too tall to sit straight in standard seats, and so have to sit with my legs sideways, jutting into the personal space of my neighbours (who justifiably complain), or out into the aisle where they interfere with cabin crew.
Not going to happen on check-in because it's a problem when doing it online. Airlines do allow you to check-in online, and then go to the c/s desk (or at bag drop) to request the e/e row seat. They tend to check you out then to see whether you are potentially capable of operating the emergency exit, because that's the only reason why you should be sitting there.

Airlines used to make available ALL their seating on seating charts (and BA still does for the over-wing exits), but then on embarkment and final check found that too many unsuitable people were sat in emergency exit seating (minors, babies, elderly), so emergency exit seating on long-haul flights tends to be bookable only at the airport (and on some airlines, on paying the appropriate surcharge).

S.

[Pontius Navigator]

Long time ago I had a seat fully recline in to me. I like to read and I need arm room as much as leg room. Simple, I just stretch my arms forward.

Also don't forget the last seat in the cabin. They can't recline when the one in front drops in their lap.

Finally avoid Thomas Cook. 28 inch pitch, stuff all recline (so no probs), and you can't get your legs under the seat in front (757).

Monarch A320 - BLISS - able to stretch full length. I have passed on my thoughts to Thomas Cook.

[On the Spot]

it is discrimination against taller / longer legged pax to cram them into a seat because it happens to be the airline standard (or to charge more) and too small, in just the same way as it is to try and charge wheelchair pax because they can't walk.

It is about time we longer legged species got together and challenged the airlines again.

[grumpysnail]

I'm a bit over 6'2", my company flies me economy and I can't afford to pay for upgrades myself (though I use points for it, when I can).

I had one bloke react agressively (similar to qwertyplop's experience) after I politely asked him to move their seatback up during meal service, now I ask cabin crew to ask them when my meal is handed to me rather than risk repeating the experience.

One trip I had the person in front slam their seat back as hard as they could, painfully smacking into my knees casing me to double forward. Unfortunately they obviously felt it could go back further so they put it up and did it again, hitting me in the face :ouch:. Lady sitting next to me got me some ice (those IFE screens don't give to well) and the (very pleasant) CC who came over to find out why it was needed found me a seat in club.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to consider those behind (and in front of) you and manners usually go a long way. Also try and remember not to sweat the small stuff and it's almost all small stuff. :cool:

[Mr Quite Happy]

To me just putting my seat back ONE notch is a OK, I'll normally look over my shoulder to make sure the dude behind isn't leaning forwards.

The putting of a seat all the way back however is rude, yes, the seat is capable, yes you've paid for it but it is the equivelent of doing 50mph on the motorway or 40mph in a 50 zone. Or pushing into the front of a queue. Just plain annoying and not the norm. If the person in front wants to do it, then that's their decision to be an a$$hole and depending on what mood I am they'll get the response that I decide at the time I think is appropriate.

[Final 3 Greens]

it is discrimination against taller / longer legged pax to cram them into a seat because it happens to be the airline standard (or to charge more) and too small, in just the same way as it is to try and charge wheelchair pax because they can't walk.

On the spot, I have sympathy for you, as I am not a tall person and I find a 31" seat pitch tight on the odd occasions when I experience it.

The trouble is that most pax are quite selfish and will not pay any extra to provide accomodation that is more comfortable for others.

They then complain when they feel a tall person's knees in their back or when that person wishes to recline their seat or put their legs into the aisle to get a little respite.

If you look at the obese passenger threads, you'll see the saem sentiments.

They fear that obese people may get "something for free", rather than that the person in the next seat will benefit just as much.

IMHO, the minimum seat pitch in economy should be 34", not that this would be great for taller people, but it would make life more bearable.

Sadly other pax do not share this sentiment and as AA found out, will not pay more for seat pitch.

Unless some pressure group is successful in changing opinions, there are limited options for taller people and most of these involve paying a lot more money.

[davidjpowell]

My first post. A few years ago coming back from Florida we thought we had hit the jackpot when we were upgraded for free to extra leg room seats. We were in the middle, just behind the entry door with a bulkhead in front of us. Partner was 6 months pregnant at the time.

It was an overnight flight so reclined my seat back a bit, to be growled at 'there is a 90 year old behind you'. Spent the entire journey in agony sat upright and exhausted on arrival. This was not helped by one lady in particular who was obvioulsy very worried about DVT becuase every 30 minutes she would do a lap of the plane, stepping on my feet on the way!

This is the reason (together with said preggers producing a now 3 year old) we have not attempted longhaul again!

David

[skydriller]

They then complain when they feel a tall person's knees in their back or when that person wishes to recline their seat or put their legs into the aisle to get a little respite.


Im 6ft4 and they can complain all they want, I cant help how Im built. Its not a "lifestyle choice" to be tall, as someone said was the case with fat poeple on the fat flyer thread. I reckon that on the average short haul economy flight, the person in front of me can recline their seat about 1 inch before my knees make it impossible for the seat to go further back. I do get poeple look around sometimes when their seat wont recline fully, if they complain to me directly I just smile and tell them my legs dont fit!!!

If there is a spare seat next to me then I usually swivel around abit and there is room for everyone, unfortunately this only really works well when the adjoining armrest can be lifted up a bit...

I dont think the situation will change, except possibly to give pax even less room....

Regards, SD..

[Dushan]

Everyone has the right to recline their seat, but please observe the following:

Not during meal service.
When starting to recline ensure there is nothing spillable on the tray behind.
Recline slowly, one notch at a time, as a signal to the person behind you that this is about to happen. Also look behind before you start.

Oh and one more thing, if you are getting out of your seat, do not grab the backrest of the seat in font of you. The guy in front (me) could be sleeping, just about to put a drink in his mouth etc.

Any kind of deliberate, constant banging on the backrest of the seat in front is not acceptable. This is especially directed to people with children.

[Lancelot37]

Everyone has the right to recline their seat, but please observe the following:

Not during meal service.
When starting to recline ensure there is nothing spillable on the tray behind.
Recline slowly, one notch at a time, as a signal to the person behind you that this is about to happen. Also look behind before you start.

Oh and one more thing, if you are getting out of your seat, do not grab the backrest of the seat in font of you. The guy in front (me) could be sleeping, just about to put a drink in his mouth etc.

Any kind of deliberate, constant banging on the backrest of the seat in front is not acceptable. This is especially directed to people with children.
=================================================

Well said, alothough I do have a problem as I am 6'3" and 19 stone, built like a rugby player. I can't help that and at 71 years it's hard to alter anything. My knees are locked into the backrest of whoever is in front of me on our regular trips to OZ in cattle class.

When the person in front tries to recline his/her seat it will not move because of my knees. I finish every flight with very sore knees which often take a couple of weeks to return to a comfort level. Modern seating in a/c seems to be focused on midgets in order to pack in as many pax as possible.

I never recline my seat and I prefer to sleep upright.

[jeanyqua]

Quote...""""Everyone has the right to recline their seat, but please observe the following:

Not during meal service.
When starting to recline ensure there is nothing spillable on the tray behind.
Recline slowly, one notch at a time, as a signal to the person behind you that this is about to happen. Also look behind before you start.""""


I do this every time,but still get the odd whinger on shorhaul.
(longhaul is j class...just couldn't suffer i'm afraid)
We are due to fly to Alicante just after boxing day,and have BOOKED/PAID for xtra legroom seats.
That's the point we have paid for it...!
If i choose to recline, I will...(I don't at meal time)
Seats that recline,will recline..tis as simple as that,with a little courtesy.
Once had cabin crew come flying over literally,as she must have seen i was about to respond not so nicely to the passenger behind....she was literally hanging on to the back of my seat...with her bloody talons practically gouged into my skull...all beacause she hadn't paid for the legroom....and was trying to heave her humungous bulk from her seat to visit the washroom.:uhoh:
My seat wasn't even reclined at this time.
I feel that today's airline travel...good manners have gone out the window.:= :ugh:

[SMT Member]

As an, all too frequent, passenger I've come to loath my fellow pax. I used to love flying, but once I got a job that entailed a lot of flying, I've grown to hate it. Based on experience (am clocking around 200K miles/year), made the decision never to fly long-haul on my own time, but if forced then only in business.

Enter darling wife, whos best friend recently immigrated to another continent. Wife insist we go visit her forthwith, and I check mileage balance. Unfortunately, had just spent most of the balance flying our families up/down for visits, so not enough miles for 2 c-class tickets. Told her we'd have to wait, but she wanted to go NOW. Fine, I said, then either you go economy or we pay for one c-class ticket (which was around 4K Euros). Wife has a hissy fit, I stand my ground. End of story? She went to visit her friend, I stayed at home.

Never, ever, will I fly long-haul in monkey class. And seat reclining is just one of many reasons.

[Xeque]

The problem isn't that seats recline with passengers free to use the facility if they want to. The problem is WHEN the seat is reclined. Nothing angers me more on a long haul flight in economy when the pax in front fully reclines the seat the moment the aircraft is airborne to when the cabin crew insist they put it upright again prior to landing. This includes at least two meal services which I tend to enjoy but certainly cannot if my freedom of movement is so badly restricted.
There is also the cretin that suddenly and without warning, fully reclines their seat when a drinks or food service is in session or if I'm enjoying the IFE with a drink in hand. I've had red wine, beer, gin and tonic and hot coffee catapulted into my lap by such inconsiderate prats.
I'm intrigued by the Cathay Pacific alternative but I wonder whether this has been achieved at the expence of seat pitch?
I've sounded off on the subject of economy class seating many times over the past couple of years. The notion that First and Business Class pays for the flight is cr@p. Have you ever traveled with an airline that was content to have First and Business Classes fully booked whilst Economy was empty?
The truth is that the airlines blatantly use Economy Class revenues to subsidize First and Business. That is born out by the failure of such airlines as Silverjet and EOS who tried the one class Premium business model but found that it could not be sustained at current premium fares.
What is needed is a one class 'Standard' aircraft layout that uses 2-4-2 configuration with an absolute mimimum of 40 inches seat pitch. Those who would like that little 'extra' can be offered value added services such as an enhanced menu and additional IFE options over and above the 'Standard' fare. All beverages should be paid for.
Lottery winners and those whose employers foot the bill should be able to take advantage of specially fitted out, smaller aircraft from Bizjet to A320/B737 size with fares that actually cover the cost of such travel.
Don't be fooled by screams of 'it can't be done' from the beancounters. The likes of Ryanair do just what I propose albeit they are offering (sometimes) much lower fares.What I am advocating is using the current, fixed economy class fares and on-line reservations services but cutting out the cost (to we economy class pax) of the fancy lounges, additional cabin staff and all the other rubbish that surrounds First and Business Class air travel.
And (PS) Can someone tell me what a MIL is please?

[PAXboy]

XequeThe truth is that the airlines blatantly use Economy Class revenues to subsidize First and Business.I have seen this view repudiated in here on more than one occasion and expect that someone will be along in a moment to do so.
That is born out by the failure of such airlines as Silverjet and EOS who tried the one class Premium business model but found that it could not be sustained at current premium fares.Both of them tried to start at the end of the biz cycle. They did so when other mainline competitors still had spare money to attack them and they did not have pockets deep enough to establish themselves. The business model has been proven to work in one form by Privat Air (part of LH) and I expect that is where it will remain.

Back to Y seating. There is something to be said for FR's approach that locks the seats from reclining - although they have ulterior reasons - it does prevent this problem.

It would be interesting if the seat manufacturers could put a 'damping' mechanism on the recline. So that, as the pax started to push the seat back it met resistance and only moved slowly - thus giving time for the pax behind to get their drink out of the way.

SMT Member Yes, that is the decision I came to some while ago. I am fortunate that I don't have children, so we could choose to travel more comfortably.

[tart1]

Xeque, MIL = mother in law :ok:

[Xeque]

Many thanks tart1