An FTRS RAF?

[Biggus]

I was looking through SROs the other day (don't ask!) when I noticed that the latest edition consisted of about 3 pages of 'orders' and about 7 pages of what can only be descibed as "job adverts" for FTRS posts.

There were FTRS positions for Hawk pilots on 100 Sqn, QFIs, QHI, Ops Offs on FJ Sqns, Red Arrows support staff, Movers, etc, etc........

I have been told that the magic number of 41,000 for the RAF does not include FTRS posts - so are we trying to achieve a 45,000 size RAF by the back door, 41,000 regular and 4,000 FTRS?

Oh, I forgot to mention that all these FTRS posts are exempt any OOA deployments!!

Thoughts anybody?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

"where do I sign up" was my first biggus! Followed by the realisation that I'm unlikely to be able to read SROs in the near future due to my lack of proximity to the UK!

[Mr C Hinecap]

I think you'll find the Movers are not FTRS and are under the control of the RAuxAF - doing OOA is part of why they're recruiting them.
I think the MoD Guard Service are not in the figures either - hence the 'artistic' ways we have to use Reserve forces these days.

[NDB]

I have regular dealings with several people in FTRS.
Problem I see is.. Some of them (one in particular) don't follow their TOR's, primarily due to the fact it was an old buddy who got them the job and is happy for them to boost their pension whilst diminishing the European tea lake.:=
Now I feel it is appropriate to say thank you for those in the FTRS who help!:D
NDB

[tailchase]

You need to look at the 'commitment' level before assessing what liability there is for all detachments and not just OOA. At one end of the scale you may be little different to a regular albeit you cannot be posted whereas at the other your job requires you to go no further that normal place of work. The salary also reflects this commitment level. There are other differences in what the services provide you and what you are entitled to dependent upon this level of committment also.
FTRS is normmaly a RAF Reserve Commission whilst RAuxAF is a different commission and may indicate a civvy type post but in uniform due to the reqt to operate under military regs eg ATC

[stillin1]

Just to add a little fact to the opening statement. Certainly one of the FTRS posts does require OOA for the job. The whole deal is a cheap way of getting nicely qualified guys back where thay are useful but only on JO pay (+ the pension I trust:E !). Sums up the stupidity of the whole shambles really. We are getting penny-pinched to death.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stillin, I believe the pension is moderated by the amount of your FTRS pay so that you earn no more than you would have had you stayed in.

This means an ex-sqn ldr will retain more of his pension than an ex-flt lt.

[stillin1]

Pontius,
I do believe you are correct sir
Cheapskate basta##s!

[fat albert]

So then, can I leave, claim my lump sum thingy then sign up again the next day into my old job as an FTRS? Sort of like the FRI of old... If so, could someone please forward me the relevant paperwork forthwith?

Ta :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Fat Albert,

Yes, that is the size of it. You get your flying pay too, although it may have changed now.

For Home Commitment your pay per rank is reduced by 15% but made up by your pension. You also start to build up a new pension pot, and gratuity too.

The FTRS can be for a fix term and job, say 6 months at CHQ or 2.5 yrs at an ATC etc or until age 60.

Now I believe the TOS are more akin to civil service than military so even the upper limit may now be flexible.

It could be a good career move if you want permanency in one location, have your own house, and just want a no-hassle job as a second career.

[Wyler]

I have just resigned as FTRS. Some points that may help:

Advantages:

Get to do your job without the other 'career' hassles.
Get to stay in one place so wife can work :D and kids can stay at the same school.
Still earn pension and gratuity but no payments until aged 60.
Dead easy to resign (max 6 months but you can go a lot quicker)
Still entitled to free medical/dental and a FMQ. (Full Commitment only for the house).

Disadvantages:

Still deployabe unless Home Commitment. In the FC Branch they will only take Full Commitment so all the normal rules apply; RAFT, CCS etc.
As Full Commitment, they are now only offering 1 year contracts so you lose the job security as you have to reapply every year.
Once there is slack in the system, you will be the first out. Supply and demand.

Pay:

I left for one month, got my gratuity and pension. Rejoined as a Flt Lt so got my abated pension on 24th of the month and Flt Lt Pay (minus commutation pay back) on last working day. When I went back to Sqn Ldr (for my last year) I got no Pension as I was back at my old wage.
As said, you cannot earn more than you did in the service.

I enjoyed it and everyone is a winner. You ditch most of the hassle and the RAF gets the benefit of much needed experience and continuity.

[Not Long Here]

I think the pay limit is purely on Basic pay. Hence a few Wg Cdrs and Gp Capts coming back as FTRS. Their pension plus Flt Lt salary is not allowed to exceed their previous ranks basic salary but they get Flt Lt Flying pay which I believe is more than the Wg Cdr/Gp Capt rate - so they do quite nicely:uhoh:

[SWRetired]

Do you know what my pay would start at as a Sqn Ldr on FTRS in a recruitment office? I am an ex Wg Cdr and did not serve out my 18 years commission. I left at 11 year point....

[Bob Viking]

Wg Cdr after 11 years?! You clearly knew something I don't!

BV

[Sandy Parts]

SWRetired - when I researched it - starting pay band was based on experience (i.e. time in that rank previously). I'd suggest if you were Pers Admin (or equivalent) Wg Cdr - you'd start at top Sqn Ldr band and then mark time (increases with pay review - no increments). As an aside, as aircrew, my previous PAS Flt Lt wage meant I'd have started my possible post at top Flt Lt band rate (non-flying role and abated for HC), plus kept my current full pension payment - and still had room to spare (i.e. no reduction as total amount less than previous wage on last day in service). You might find the same. All based on system prior to NEM so may have all changed now.

[Wander00]

BV - you said what I thought. I thought I was quick - flt lt no seniority to wg cdr in 10 years dead. Clearly something in his tea.

[sitigeltfel]

Medical officer?

[Jumping_Jack]

FTRS is a great way for advancement for those who are unable to get promoted as a regular. Recognised as an 'issue' by manning as to apply for a post above your current rank you only need a 'positive' promo rec, which wouldn't normally get you promoted! Not sure what, if anything they can do about it though!

[Stitchbitch]

JJ, not all the 'shooting stars' get the lucky cornflake box, for some this is a way to get to where they wanted to be but couldn't because they weren't what the 'sift team' we're looking for at promotion board time, or there were lots of candidates and few slots..agreed that for the odd or two that FTRS is a way to gain a rank, but it's normally out of their trade and in careers or quality (heaven help us!).

[Blue Bottle]

Home - FTRS-PTVR-ADC-VeRR (http://www.raf.mod.uk/ftrs-ptvr-adc-verr/)

[Melchett01]

Stillin, I believe the pension is moderated by the amount of your FTRS pay so that you earn no more than you would have had you stayed in.

This means an ex-sqn ldr will retain more of his pension than an ex-flt lt.

Can anybody explain the rationale behind the pay abatement? It seems not only unfair but plain wrong to my simple brain. That you have to leave one job and physically apply and be selected for the second to my mind implies 2 completely separate and unrelated jobs, where previous knowledge and experience are the only connecting factor. So why does the FTRS post pay less? Surely there should be a rate for a job that gets paid regardless of ones other sources of income.

[Ken Scott]

You could try suggesting that to Ascent for the MFTS contract....

[airpolice]

Wg Cdr after 11 years?! You clearly knew something I don't!

BV

Bob, I suppose it was well before your time, but I thought that some of the Tri Star crews who were bought in from BA were started as squablin bleeders, even some of the Flight Engineers.

On that basis, 11 year to get one promotion seems workable.

[Bob Viking]

I don't know. I got two within a year when I left Cranwell. Maybe I'm brighter than I give myself credit for!

BV

[Selatar]

Firstly I think biggus just increased the RAF numbers by 10k up to 41 thousand. I may have missed the memo but isn't 31 and change the answer?

I think it was said on here after the SDSR 15 announcements that a fair amount of manpower numbers magic was required to find the people for SDSR outcomes. The RAF was to uplift by around 250 posts by 2020. This included manning 2 extra typhoon squadrons, retaining 2 C-130j squadrons and manning a complete MPA force. In addition extending sentinel and RPAS where the posts were often on the black economy or lifed. All of this does not fit into 250 posts. 1500 maybe. So my take is that in addition to reserves being in fashion (cheaper) it's an attempt to free up numbers to man all the kit within headcount. Just a theory mind you....

[Roland Pulfrew]

41 thousand. I may have missed the memo but isn't 31 and change the answer?

31K is indeed the answer, but you might want to look at the date of the first post. What's more shocking is that back then there was talk of 41K regular and 4K FTRS, and now we struggle on with 31K. What a decline :(

[Pontius Navigator]

Wg Cdr after 11 years?! You clearly knew something I don't!

BV
You know you're getting old when wg cdrs look like school boys. Picture in today's local rag of a wg cdr at Coningsby. Interesting, he is with a Typhoon nav. Make for some interesting pprune arguments in years to come.

[Could be the last?]

A number of the jobs I see advertised for FTRS are based on the need for continuity in post - not my words but those of a soon to retire 3*. However, I am just about to get my 6th Desk Officer/Career Manager (whatever they are called this week) in 9 years, surely this is the one area that should be FTRS'd from the top down? At least they would have to live with the consequences of their decisions. Thoughts.........?

[Melchett01]

A number of the jobs I see advertised for FTRS are based on the need for continuity in post - not my words but those of a soon to retire 3*. However, I am just about to get my 6th Desk Officer/Career Manager (whatever they are called this week) in 9 years, surely this is the one area that should be FTRS'd from the top down? At least they would have to live with the consequences of their decisions. Thoughts.........?

Now there's a thought. Or it would be if FTRS was actually about continuity rather than not wanting to pay for manpower and capability. We simply don't do that sort of joined up thinking that would leave people in post to see out the consequences of their decisions. I'm currently involved in a fairly major and controversial project, purely as a minion Staff Officer, but even to my lowly position it is evident that it's not quite going to plan and is taking a lot of reworking on the hoof to fit square pegs into round holes. When I suggested, albeit half jokingly, that all OF6s and up who were involved in the decision making should have postings, promotions and honours put on hold pending a re-touring in post to see through their decisions, the look I got was one of pure horror. Evidence to my mind that we don't do continuity, especially in key and controversial areas, and FTRS seem unfortunately to be about doing things on the cheap more than anything else.

[Jumping_Jack]

Spot on Melchett:ugh:

[BEagle]

I used to describe such things as 'NIMT' programmes - Not In My Tour. In other words, issues squirrelled away until sprung on the next incumbent when the previous post holder escaped.

FM-immunity was one such farce. Due to no-one at Wyton having been aware of the issue in time, the only aircraft at Brize which met FM-immunity requirements by the deadline were the 4 x PA-28s of the Flying Club....

[cheifofdefence]

Quote:

FTRS is a great way for advancement for those who are unable to get promoted as a regular. Recognised as an 'issue' by manning as to apply for a post above your current rank you only need a 'positive' promo rec, which wouldn't normally get you promoted! Not sure what, if anything they can do about it though!


So why is this an issue? A positive recommendation for promotion means that you have been assessed as having the competencies to perform in the next rank. Unless of course the RO lacks the moral courage to tell it as it is and awards a positive recommendation in order to keep you quiet knowing that in the regulars it is never going to happen!

[just another jocky]

Can anybody explain the rationale behind the pay abatement? It seems not only unfair but plain wrong to my simple brain. That you have to leave one job and physically apply and be selected for the second to my mind implies 2 completely separate and unrelated jobs, where previous knowledge and experience are the only connecting factor. So why does the FTRS post pay less? Surely there should be a rate for a job that gets paid regardless of ones other sources of income.

I was told that it was a Treasury rule and therefore would be near impossible to change/challenge.

Firstly I think biggus just increased the RAF numbers by 10k up to 41 thousand. I may have missed the memo but isn't 31 and change the answer?

I think it was said on here after the SDSR 15 announcements that a fair amount of manpower numbers magic was required to find the people for SDSR outcomes. The RAF was to uplift by around 250 posts by 2020. This included manning 2 extra typhoon squadrons, retaining 2 C-130j squadrons and manning a complete MPA force. In addition extending sentinel and RPAS where the posts were often on the black economy or lifed. All of this does not fit into 250 posts. 1500 maybe. So my take is that in addition to reserves being in fashion (cheaper) it's an attempt to free up numbers to man all the kit within headcount. Just a theory mind you....

2 x Tiffie sqns manned by FTRS pilots (any FJ exp, QRA & FI only, 8 sortie OCU) is the rumour I've heard.

[airpolice]

The fact that the FTRS "pay" is subject to a deduction of your pension payment makes it less attractive.

If you leave and have a monthly pension, you get that as well as the money you make working in Tesco. If you come back, almost, and take an FTRS role, they count the pension payment as part of your salary for the new job.

[Pontius Navigator]

Airpolice, I believe the abatement is fixed
Ie as time goes on you them draw ahead as you pension and pay are increased through pay uplift and pensions increase

[airpolice]

PN, for a guy retiring on say £18,000 a year pension, taking a job with Tesco on £28,000 he is now earning £46,000 but if he comes in to take an FTRS job at £46,000 he is only getting the £46,000 as his pension is taken into account.

Tesco don't care about the pension money.

[Pontius Navigator]

Airpolice, but Tesco expect you to work as well.

[airpolice]

PN, that probably explains why there are so many filled FTRS posts!

[Union Jack]

I used to describe such things as 'NIMT' programmes - Not In My Tour. In other words, issues squirrelled away until sprung on the next incumbent when the previous post holder escaped. - BEagle

Very similar to the alleged practice in the former Ship Department in Bath whereby civilian members of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors would wait until uniformed colleagues were shipped out before dusting off their own in-house ideas once more. They also were claimed to have a big rubber stamp embossed with "NIH", standing for "Not Invented Here".:ugh:

Of course I could not possibly comment on whether either - or both! - of these practices transferred to Abbey Wood....:rolleyes:

Jack

[SWRetired]

I was a specialist branch yes : )

[downsizer]

As you seem to be looking at the SCEO SW&SWales post I'd make sure you are fully aware of the realistic day to day role of the job and the politics that come with it.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Could be the last?]

I was involved in an interesting conversation earlier today reference the promotion profile of an FTRS officer, and specifically the time frame that an individual took to get from SO3 to SO1. Can someone clarify whether or not FTRS are subject to the same time constraints and pre-requisite quals between ranks as regulars? Or as it would appear, Manning just make it up to suit?

[pr00ne]

Surely by their very reason for existence FTRS are entitely post related and promotion etc has no effect or meaning?

[Lima Juliet]

To go to a lower rank is easy, but to go upwards then you need to achieve this (for example a Sqn Ldr looking to become a Wg Cdr):

Must either have been, or currently be, a Wing Commander or a Squadron Leader eligible for promotion in accordance with AP 3393 Vol 1 and AP 7000

So the criteria is the same, but the promotion board competition will likely be far fewer - most FTRS posts have fewer than half a dozen at interview.

LJ

[downsizer]

Surely by their very reason for existence FTRS are entitely post related and promotion etc has no effect or meaning?

No, nothing to stop Flt Lt FTRS applying for another Sqn Ldr FTRS post and so on. Happens fairly regularly IME, often no choice as with FTRS you can only interview the people who apply, and dependent on location it may not be many!

[Could be the last?]

So if a regular officer has done less than the prerequisite time as an SO2 to be boarded for an SO1 post, iaw the AP, he would not be considered for promotion. However, if an FTRS officer who left as an SO3, rejoins as an SO2, and then after say 2-3 years with a 'Yes' for promotion, applies for an SO1 FTRS post and is successful (because there is no one else applying) that is acceptable?

[downsizer]

Pretty much!

[Mahogany_Bomber]

Minimum of 4 years in substantive rank before an individual can presented to a Promotion Board.

[sidewayspeak]

Met some pretty 'average' FTRS people who were delighted to be one rank higher than they were when regular. Also met some who could not make it in corporate/civilian world, and retreated with tales between legs back into FTRS uniform.

Leave it behind. Move on to something else. My personal opinion only, but going back smacks a little of failure.