What helicopter for SAR in Norway?

[northseaspray]

The NH90 is off the shortlist, EC225 mentioned by government representative. New aircraft to enter service 2011-2014.



Press release and news article, in norwegian only:

http://odin.dep.no/jd/norsk/tema/beredskap/012101-210302/dok-bu.html

http://web3.aftenbladet.no/innenriks/article406380.ece

[Aesir]

Interesting stuff.

It has been known for some time that the NH90 does not meet the requiriements set by "Helikopterfaglig forum" commitee so the decision was not a total suprise but its good to know that the government has come to a conclusion.

The EC225 is only mentioned as one of the possible candidates and in my opinion will barely meet the requirments set by the "HF" commitee.

It will be interesting to see what happens and the outcome of the bidding process by the 3 or 4 large helicopter manufacturers and how they will propose to meet the needs for Norwegian SAR.

It is expecially interesting as it has been proposed that Iceland will be a partner in a joint bidding process for a new SAR helicopter as our needs are similar.

[rotorrookie]

So is it (EC-225/S-92B/EH-101), that are left on the list??

[Aesir]

In my opinion the type is irrelevant as long as the helicopter meets the requirements of which one is that it has to be civilian certified.

A joint venture with Norway could save both countries some money and provide a very capable helicopter.

[GenuineHoverBug]

Just a couple of minor points.

I think you will find that the NH-90 is not off the shortlist, as there is no such list as the moment. The intention appears to be to start afresh with a new bidding round, this time for a real SAR helicopter. I am sure NH-90 is more than welcome to compete, if they feel they can meet the requirements.

The spec for the NAWSARH (Norwegian All-Weather SAR helicopter) may be found here, but as always - only in Norwegian.
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256052.958.befxvwqcwa/NAWSARH-JustisdepartementetNorskredningstjeneste.doc

The first part details the concept and tasks, the equipment requirements are at the end of the document.
And this document does not require that the helicopter shall be civilian certified, military qualification will do nicely.

And for anyone particularily interested, this is the general operating concept for the helicopter, for once in a kind of English!
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256053.958.cefvsdxsrw/Overordnet_Konsept_Redningstjenesten.pdf

[Heli-Ice]

I agree with Aesir, it really doesn't matter which type to choose as long as it meets the requirements set and has acceptable parts support.

Iceland has its own requirements and from that list I think the Coast Guard will have to choose between 3 types and they are:

the EC-225, EH101 and S-92.

I think that the S-92 and the EH101 lead the EC-225 in case of range in high winds. Those two can carry a lot more useful stuff (like Go juice, jumper cables and laughing gas) than the EC-225 and that must count in the SAR environment.

[northseaspray]

My guess is that the Dept of Justice now will be talking to those who operate the EC225, the S92 and the EH101, not only looking at numbers and pics in the sales brochures, which seems to have been the case with the NH90.

Always better to make a decision based on hard facts..

[Helikopter]

Just spoke to friend of mine from Denmark and he informed me that the Danish authority have got 8 EH 101 and 2 of them are in pieces used as spare parts. This is maybe not going to say any thing at all, just a point in discussions :O

[GenuineHoverBug]

How is it that when we hear these stories of aircraft not working, it is almost only from the military?

Do they just buy bad aircraft, -or are they possibly unable to use or maintain them properly? Or perhaps after having bought such nice, expencive aircraft, they can not afford enough spares or a proper support contract?

Mostly, the civilians seem to be able to keep the aircraft running, in spite of a few difficulties. I believe the S-92s do at least 1200-1500 hours each per year. That does not allow for much sitting in the hangar.

Do civilians do things differently? Or perhaps they just keep quiet about their problems?

[Jack Carson]

If you can go back to the mid 1990’s one will find that not much has changed. Norway disseminated a SAR requirements document to industry and participated in the Nordic acquisition program. More than ten years later they are beginning anew. The past requirements were very demanding and Norway was unbending. As a result, Norway elected not to continue with full participation in the Nordic program and go it alone in selecting the NH-90. In the end the Nordic program (Sweden, Finland) decision followed Norway in selecting the NH-90. Norway did not consider the S-70, S-92 or the EH-101 suitable for their requirements. Denmark similarly decided early and went against the Nordic decision and selected the EH-101. Street rumors at the time indicated that the Sikorsky H-92 was a clear front runner if not the competition winner. Flash back to the future. The S-92 has been successfully certified and fielded. Any Norwegian decision in the future will most probably be 90% political and 10% operational. :=

[rotorrookie]

[QUOTE]Street rumors at the time indicated that the Sikorsky H-92 was a clear front runner if not the competition winner.[/QUOT

Still is in my and many others opinion... The S-92 fleet has now logged over 40000 hrs with(let's face it)only minor birth problems,
though few ppruners think else:ugh:

EH-101 is just too big...and what will three engines give you over two??
more maintenance? more fuel consump? more complex gerabox? don't know

I put S-92 first but EC-225 very close behind... but like you said this will be political decision so we could end up with MI-17:}

[Blackhawk9]

I think the S-92 has to be in front, look at whats happening now in the North Sea area: the first CHC SAR S-92 is in production/fitout now -so you will have commonality in SAR types, NORSK is the high time user in the world based in Sola/Stavanger, CHC/HS also based at Sola/Stavangar have a large S-92 fleet and the headquarters of 330 skn (the SAR Sqn) is at Sola/Stavanger, all that experience,expertice and facilities in one place why choose something else!!!
But why use logic, the politicians don't!!
Just look at Australia, Logic and most people in the Military wanted UH-60M's and Apache's but noooooo the poli's chose the Tiger and NH90.

[northseaspray]

The "minor" problems with the S92 will most likely disappear when they develop the five blade rotor system. To finance such an investment, they need a large contract, which they don't have yet. The prestigious contract for the White House helicopter slipped away, and now the USAF chose the Boeing for combat sar. In my opinion, the EC225 just have to prove range and payload to top the list.

The NRAF desperately wanted the NH90 so that they could keep the civilian companies out of the market for the next 40 years, and used every opportunity to market their agenda. Chanses are that they stepped on a few toes within the government, which now might be looking at going civilian again, like it was in the '70. That way the can spend as they go, and change type every 10 years if it's deemed nessesary.

Politics? You bet, all the way...

[rotordude]

I,m not entirely convinced that a fifth blade will do anything. You make one change and you have to follow up on the other components.

A fifth blade will most certanly increase drag in the rotorsystem. You then have to boost the engines in order to have the same performance, strenghten the gearbox and transmission. I have no doubt that it can be done, but are they willing to accept the weight penalties?

As someone mentioned earlier, I hope they find the aircraft best suited for the mission.


Rotordude

[NickLappos]

Those who know little about helicopters can actually believe that the number of blades is a measure of fitness. Those who know something about helicopters are not so easily fooled.

Those who make 5 bladed helicopters sucker those who know little about helicopters by telling them fairey tales about the number of blades.

Either that, or all you poor sods who fly 4, 3 or even (gasp!) 2 bladed helicopters should run from them immediately!

So far, the problem with the S-92 is getting them to the customers fast enough, it is out-selling the 225 by about ten to one.

Regarding Norwegian SAR, the mission is brutal, 400 NM radius of action, all weather, with large pick-up capability. It is at the edge of the EH-101 and S-92, and probably beyond all other smaller helos. Frankly, it is close to the USAF CSAR in payload/range/hover requirements.

[nimby]

So it's six blades in two groups then:}

[Jack Carson]

Rotorrookie,your point is well taken. Ten years after the Nordic program was conceived, the loosing contender has succeeded to a position where it is the only operationally successful helicopter in the region. In the meantime, the NH-90 struggles with many operational aspects of its program while continuing to excel in sales. Twenty five percent of Denmark’s EH-101 fleet is committed as parts bins to support their operating aircraft. It is obvious that NH Industries and Agusta Westland made unsupportable promises to their respective operational customers. Someone in the region has to have benefited from these procurement decisions. It surely is not the operators. :ok:

[rotorrookie]

Regarding Norwegian SAR, the mission is brutal, 400 NM radius of action, all weather, with large pick-up capability. It is at the edge of the EH-101 and S-92, and probably beyond all other smaller helos.

Nick!one question. Why not give the S-92 a in-flight refuelling probelike HH-92to get better range ?? Does that equipment eat a lot of payload ?

OR is it not JAR approved on S-92 or not approved at all?

That would without doubt be useful here in mid atlantic and make the deal for Sikorsky

On quite few occasion in the past the US Navy Pave Hawks flew missions from KEF navy base that extended far beond normal reach of any helicopter, think the longest where around 800 or 900 NM

[GenuineHoverBug]

The prequalification process for procurement of up to 25 helicopters (including helicopter(s)for Iceland and the options) was finally announced - on the 24th of October.:D

The Requirement Document, which sums up in English most of the capabilites expected may be found here: http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/JD/Vedlegg/Kampanjesider/NAWSARH/NAWSARH_Requirement_Document_28092011_web.pdf

Other project news may be followed here: About the project - regjeringen.no (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/jd/Kampanjer/Helicopters/About-the-project.html?id=495661)

[chopper2004]

Rotorrookie,

You mean the USAF 56th Rescue Squadron HH-60G Pave Hawks :) And they had air to air refuelling probes to pair up with the rotating HC-130 Combat Shadow tankers :)

[Grey Area]

Of course Nick, you could have noted that the length of the EC225 waiting list means that all you can order in that class is the 92 if you want it in 2012.
I guess the fact that it was built against the latest FARs must be the clincher don't you think?

[DauphinDude]

Everything in Norway is politics. Does not matter if it is fighter jets, SAR helicopters or Navy ships. Like Øystein Sunde sings "Staten er blitt en artig gnier, de bruker flere tusen på å spare en tier".

[FLI225]

"Staten er blitt en artig gnier, de bruker flere tusen på å spare en tier".

That's easy for you to say!

[DauphinDude]

Haha, yeah. I should have provided a translation. Basically its a song by a famous singer in Norway. He is making mostly comedy songs. Anyway it goeas something like "The State has become a funny cheapskate, using thousands of dollars to save a dime". I guess this goes for most governments around the globe.

[espresso drinker]

I have to admit it, but the EC225 probably looks the favorite based what's already flying around out there with Bristow and CHC. I'm not that educated and I don't know if the EC225 it meets all the requirements (procurement spec is available through a link kindly provided in an earlier post). Maybe someone more educated can enlighten me.

I see the V-22 is tabled as a potential candidate. That would be a radial choice (I'm not going to get into the debate and bun fight about that aircraft here).

I know that the S-92 is being used for SAR in the UK, but with it's MGB problems (see other threads) and delays for the Canadian military I'd be reluctant.

The AW101 does a great job and has pulled off some great rescues in Canada (sorry, it's called the Cormorant so the Canadian tax payers' don't confuse it with the same EH101 that they cancelled and paid millions of dollars in penalties, only to buy it anyway), but has suffered for whatever reason with regard to availability in Canada and Denmark.

Can anyone tell me, is the NH90 out already?

Anyone want to go into partnership to knock out some newbuild Sea Kings? Do you think we'd get a licence and would anyone buy them??????:E

[heliwanab]

doesn't Bond off shore run an EC225 for BP jigsaw??
It would be interesting to hear how they get on,headroom was a bit of an issue.
the S-92 seems to work well in the UK enviroment,at least to a non driver:{

[TiPwEiGhT]

Jigsaw machines are 332L2´s.

[espresso drinker]

Sorry about the spelling, I meant radical choice :uhoh:

[Shell Management]

I assume CHC and Bristow are bidding. What about DanCopter, Airlift and Luftransport?

[JimL]

It is likely to be on the civil register but manned by the Norwegian Air Force.

Jim

[kennethr]

Read the recent AAIB report onthe ec 225. questioning the valadit of MGB , HUMS etsc

Not good reading for 17 Million

[kennethr]

apologies for the typos

[Bravo73]

Read the recent AAIB report onthe ec 225. questioning the valadit of MGB , HUMS etsc

Not good reading for 17 Million


Do you mean the report about G-REDL?

If so, that aircraft was an AS332L2, not an EC225.

[Droopystop]

Bravo73
But as far as makes little difference the same gearbox

[GenuineHoverBug]

The Ministry of Justice announced yesterday that it had informed the interested parties of the results of the prequalification process.

The full, joint procurement process is for up to 16 SAR helicopters for Norway with an option for a further 6, and 1 SAR helicopter for Iceland with an option for 2.

The plan is to send the request for tender to the prequalified companies by the beginning of April 2012. First deliveries are expected in 2016 - and the Sea King should then be retired by the end of 2020.

And the prequalified companies are:
A) AgustaWestland Ltd
B) Eurocopter SAS
C) NHIndustries
D) Sikorsky International Operations Inc.

(Would it be possible perhaps to change the thread name, as EC225 is apparently not a more likely candidate than any of the other 3?)



Done!

SP

[chopper2004]

Apart from the debates on here regarding future UK SAR, I've noticed that Eurocopter and AW (more so aggressively with dedicated site in Norwegian)

Eurocopter and Heli-One introduce “Team NORDSAR” as a tailored solution for Norway’s search and rescue helicopter acquisition - Eurocopter, an EADS company (http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/press/Eurocopter-and-Heli-One-introduce-Team-NORDSAR-as-a-tailored-solution-for-Norway-s-search-and-rescue-helicopter-acquisition_921.html?iframe=true&width=700)

Home | no.agustawestland.com (http://no.agustawestland.com/)

NH-90 and S-92 are also part of the competition as well, though the Norwegians are spoilt for choice, bar the S-92, Eurocopter or AW be a win win situ.

Interestingly how the Norway SAR framework works, as its the mil a/c but the actual ops funded by the Ministry of Justice.

Best of luck to the winning team.

[GenuineHoverBug]

The following was announced on the Projects website (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/jd/kampanjer/helicopters/news-2/itt-documents-released-to-prequalified-2.html?id=696807):

"The NAWSARH-project reached a major milestone on 11th July 2012 by concluding the Invitation to Tender (ITT) for the main acquisition of AWSAR helicopters, services and training for the replacement of the Sea King. The ITT consists of 37 documents and is issued to the Prequalified Candidates. Deadline for submission of Tender is 18th December 2012."

It appears the documents are not available to the public.

[GenuineHoverBug]

There is a thread (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/262445-what-helicopter-sar-norway.html) on some of this already.

[GenuineHoverBug]

Not much has been said in this thread regarding what the purpose of this procurement actually is. In case someone should be interested, the following bits and pieces are based on a presentation held for the potential bidders on the 10th of November 2011.

The Whitepaper Proposition for decision to acquire new rescue helicopter etc. for the period of 2013–2020 states:
The Parliament agrees that Ministry of Justice- and the Police can within a frame of 16 800 Mill NOK (approx. 2 300 millon Euro):

Enter into a purchase agreement for up to 16 rescue helicopter in the class of 10-20 ton complete with spare parts, equipment- and training packages for mainland of Norway for planned phase-in period 2016–2020. The agreement shall also include options of up to six rescue helicopter of same type.
Adjust infrastructure, including building adaptation for the selected helicopter type at different bases in addition to the landing possibilities at hospitals that is utilised by the SAR helicopter today
Establish a contract of long term maintenance and logistics support to support the helicopters operation inside the allocated budget for the whole contract period.

The procurement is in cooperation between Norway and Iceland.

Overall Concept and Purpose (Norway)
Provide year-round safety for people in the SAR region at sea, in inaccessible terrain, and in difficult situations where other resources are insufficient.

Procure up to 16 new SAR helicopters for the current six SAR operating bases in Norway
With the aim of keeping minimum of one serviceable helicopter per base 24 hours a day all year round, with a target of 100% readiness.
The reaction time is 15 minutes.



The availability requirements will be measured at the interface between the Turnkey provision and the equipment and services performed in-house (by the Operator).
The main objective is to enable the Operator to obtain the readiness targets, however taking into account life cycle cost effects.
The final combination of the number of helicopters, availability requirements, and maintenance and logistics services, will hence be subject to negotiations.


Capabilities
The range and main capabilities for the Norwegian SAR helicopters have been summarised in four key objectives:

To have the capacity to initiate rescue of 20 persons in distress at sea at any point within a range of 150 nautical miles directly out from the straight baseline within two hours and return with the rescuees to a safe place on land. In addition, they must be able to assist two persons at the far perimeter of the Norwegian SAR region with better effect than today. (That is about 400 NM out form the baseline. I believe the area of responsibility sector was recently extended to the 90 degrees N, which would add another 300 NM to this requirement!)
To assist persons in distress on land and in inaccessible terrain, and in other emergency situations where other resources are insufficient, quickly and in a safe manner year-round. (Eg. OGE hover at 8 100 feet, operate down to about minus 50 degrees)
To continue the present established practice to conduct air ambulance services, where the health service’s own helicopters are unsuitable.
To carry out other missions of public importance (military missions, support to special police missions, specialised fire fighting, emergency relief, environmental protection, and other missions of public interest aimed at protecting assets or the environment).


Delivery of SAR helicopters and lifecycle support materials and services
The ILS solution will include all:

life-cycle support logistics materials and
services and
some training and
maintenance services, (not applicable for Iceland)
during the implementation phase and for an envisaged duration of ten years

The procurement will seek out a Turnkey provider, with only one contractual interface between the Ministry and the chosen provider.

Some assets (e.g. base facilities) and services (e.g. line maintenance) shall be provided or undertaken by the Ministry,
Some assets and services will be made available to the Bidders for incorporation in the Turnkey solution if considered appropriate by the Bidder.


In-house assets and services:

Operated by 330 sqd as today (Air Force)
SAR operating bases as today (6 bases on the mainland)
Line maintenance


Iceland
The Icelandic Government has decided to procure an initial order of

one new long-range rescue helicopter
with a purchase option of two more helicopters.

Iceland intends to procure, as far as it is feasible, the same helicopters as Norway, thereby achieving efficiency and economies of scale.

Iceland will perform line and base maintenance in-house, and acquire other necessary services.


Regulatory framework (only Norway)
It is the Ministry’s objective that the procurement shall be open to both military and civil certified helicopters, and military and civil registration. It is thus the Ministry’s objective that the Candidate may freely choose what he considers most advantageous in order to meet the Ministry’s operational, functional and technical requirements.
The intended helicopter shall prove evidence that it will hold a civil EASA type certificate or military qualification from recognised authority at the latest when preferred bidder is selected.

The Ministry intention is not to close the question of helicopter register until the time of selecting the preferred bidder, based on his best overall offer.
Please note that in order to allow a change in the future register (i.e. to a civil register) it is required that operational flexibility in relation to SAR and air ambulance operations is upheld.
Whether this is obtainable is pending clarifications from the MoD, CAA-N and EASA.
Hence, the Ministry reserves the right to revisit the required regulatory regime as necessary due to EASAs response, or if otherwise required to do so in order to comply with the prerequisite of operational flexibility.


Options
The Options (6+2) will be considered called for:

At Svalbard to replace the current SAR helicopters (Presently one AWSAR AS332L1/ one AS365N2)
On the mainland Norway:
–in case of loss of a Helicopter,
–if the number of SAR Operating Bases at the Norwegian mainland should be increased in the future, or
–due to any other presently unforeseen or uncontrollable circumstance.

Iceland to replace existing SAR helicopters

The Options shall be valid for a maximum period equalling the length of the maintenance and logistics services.

Award Criteria
Following the negotiations, the contract will be awarded to the Bidder with the economically most advantageous offer, as further detailed in the ITT. The award criteria will be:

Award criteria and Weight
Performance/Quality - 48%
Price - 33%
Risk - 7%
Reliability of delivery - 12%

[meanttobe]

Norway reduces SAR bidders to two | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/07/10/norway-reduces-sar-bidders-to-two/)

[jimf671]

Two bidders are invited to further negotiations for new SAR helicopters - regjeringen.no (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/jd/press-center/pressemeldinger/20131/two-bidders-are-invited-to-further-negot.html?id=732591)

Which presumably means Merlin and Super Puma are the remaining alternatives.

So, all the Europeans who have a hope in hell of delivering?

[meanttobe]

From Helihub

Norwegian Trade Unions want AW101 for SAR, not EC725 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/10/31/norwegian-trade-unions-want-aw101-for-sar-not-ec725/)

Maybe they can pick some up on the cheap?

Govt all set to cancel VVIP chopper deal - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-all-set-to-cancel-VVIP-chopper-deal/articleshow/24955432.cms)

This is interesting considering Eurocopter has partnered with Heli One Norway. Same arguement about jobs for Norway.

Eurocopter NORDSAR (http://www.nordsar.no/site/en/ref/home.html)

[Praet]

Maybe they can pick some up on the cheap?

Govt all set to cancel VVIP chopper deal - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-all-set-to-cancel-VVIP-chopper-deal/articleshow/24955432.cms)
As AW apparently has opted for a Merlin-esque tail without rear ramp for the NAWSARH offer, that would require extensive changes to the airframes, I guess ;)

[meanttobe]

From Helihub

Connecticut politicians write grovelling letter to Norway after Sikorsky droppped from SAR tender | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/11/07/connecticut-politicians-write-grovelling-letter-to-norway-after-sikorsky-droppped-from-sar-tender/)

[iuk1963]

the selection is espected very shortly. I don't think the Norwegians will change their mind so late in the competition.

[Savoia]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8PeHPQesp7U/UnyrhSAduOI/AAAAAAAAPE0/HoJ-ey93nkg/w906-h544-no/AW101+SAR.png

*As recommended by governments in Asia and North America.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OddRWs_YHGo/UnFnKayzjvI/AAAAAAAAO88/6TevAcwU_2A/s33-no/Super+Smiley.png

[Smokeyboy]

AgustaWestland til sluttforhandlinger om nye redningshelikoptre - regjeringen.no (http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/jd/pressesenter/pressemeldinger/20131/agustawestland-til-sluttforhandlinger-om.html?id=745358)

[M609]

Norway selects AW101 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.no&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/luftfart/vil-kjoepe-helikoptre-fra-agustawestland/10153209/&usg=ALkJrhho9GM8EEXFn_0Mn4Yams1EdRIUMA)

[jimf671]

Engelsk

AgustaWestland to final negotiations - regjeringen.no (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/jd/press-center/pressemeldinger/20131/agustawestland-to-final-negotiations.html?id=745358)

[tottigol]

Connecticut politicians write grovelling letter to Norway after Sikorsky droppped from SAR tender | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/11/07/connecticut-politicians-write-grovelling-letter-to-norway-after-sikorsky-droppped-from-sar-tender/)

Ha! Perhaps they should try with Canada!

[Jack Carson]

Let me go back more than a decade to the front lines of the NSHP. Having spent an inordinate amount of time pushing the H-92 for Norwegian missions including SAR, I now know that any aircraft would have fallen short in the government’s eyes. We were lambasted by the Norwegian Government for proposing an aircraft (H-92) that had no way of meeting all of their requirements. Hind sight is always 20/20. At the time, only the NH-90 met all of their very demanding mission requirements. Where is the NH-90 today? I have to admit now that, with knowledge of the Canadian S-92 issues many promises proposed for a mission compliant S-92 were at best a dream. Sikorsky would have most probably fallen well short. Good luck to Agusta Westland. They will need it over the long term.

[meanttobe]

Hopefully Norway will have a better experience than Denmark . It's interesting that no civil helicopter operator has every taken the Aw101 into commercial service.



http://uk.rigsrevisionen.dk/media/1884590/1-2012.pdf

[Grenville Fortescue]

The only helicopter able to meet all of Norway's performance criteria was the Boeing CH-47, complete with in-flight re-fuelling capability.

[Jack Carson]

Boeing was the smart one when responding to the NSHP. They left the RFP sitting in the lobby at NSHP head quarters on Vahlallavagen. Smart move for the company with the only aircraft (CH-47) to meet most of the requirements.

[jimf671]

Hopefully Norway will have a better experience than Denmark . It's interesting that no civil helicopter operator has every taken the Aw101 into commercial service.

http://uk.rigsrevisionen.dk/media/1884590/1-2012.pdf


One could interpret that as a sign of incompetence in configuration control or in other aspects of product lifecycle design and management. However, it is also strongly suggestive of a product designed to suck the life out of defence budgets across the world.

[heli1]

Be fair.Both Denmark and Canada made the mistake of buying a helicopter without sufficient provisioning for training in one case and spares in the other. The more recent practice of making the manufacturer responsible for ensuring the required number of aircraft are on the front line every morning has resolved the spares issue for those wise enough to adopt it ( not Canada ) and as for training...well...that is a decision for the operator.
At least with the AW101 you get a proven military based product...with a reliable transmission.....how many H92s have the US military bought? And let's not even mention Canada again.
And do US politicians even know where Norway is?......how big a country it is ?....the distances and climate to its furthest reaches ?

[Vertical751]

Good for Norway! ;)

Rays of Hope on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/paulwex/raysofhope)

Prooven SAR plataform.

Cheers,

[Tango123]

One of the key problems the Danish Military has with the EH101 was that Augusta Westland expected a servicability of approx 80%, which has never been possible ( now around 60%). Though it was never written in the contract for the 14 helicopters, therefore there was no breach of the contract.

I believe that the Norwegian Airforce has been looking very close into these mistakes made by the danes, and therefore will reach a much better contract, and result.

[ARRAKIS]

One of the key problems the Danish Military has with the EH101 was that Augusta Westland expected a servicability of approx 80%, which has never been possible ( now around 60%).
Or was it the opposite? The Danes assumed a servicability that was never (and nowhere) written in the contract.
At least IIRC a report by a Danish GAO equivalent put it that way some years ago.

Arrakis

[pumaboy]

I have to say the Norwegian AW101 looks better and more like a Rescue Helicopter in the Orange and White scheme than the Danes Drab Olive :ugh:

Lets hope the Norwegians do a better job than the Danes did.

[Thomas coupling]

Meantobe: Civil 101's include:

Turkmenistan VVIP for their airlines.
Tokyo police.

[meanttobe]

Thomas you are quite correct. Both the Japanese and Tukmenistan AW 101 are civil varients used for VVIP and Police operations.
I suppose to clarify my point no commercial helicopter operator has taken the AW 101 into either offshore O&G operations or civil SAR operations.

[Thomas coupling]

The Japs bought it n 2010 I think. $20 million for the basic green shell before kitting it out :ugh:
Only the Noggys (richest per capita in the world after KSA) could afford to do it big style. I'd love to see the running costs.
It is suggested that mil 101's on average are now down to 60% reliability rating.:rolleyes:

[dmanton300]

It is suggested that mil 101's on average are now down to 60% reliability rating.:rolleyes:

*where* is it "suggested"? Care to provide links and stuff? You may be right, but If you make the assertion I presume you have figures to back it up?

[212man]

I suppose to clarify my point no commercial helicopter operator has taken the AW 101 into either offshore O&G operations or civil SAR operations

I suspect that may change in the future, particularly now the leasing model has taken favour, as longer range becomes the key.

[Thomas coupling]

Danish public accounts committee 2012:
http://uk.rigsrevisionen.dk/media/1884590/1-2012.pdf

The operational availability of the EH-101 helicopters has since 2010 varied between
53 and 55 per cent, which is sufficient to perform the search and rescue task. The
Defence is aiming for an operational availability of 65 per cent when the task of trans-
porting troops is also performed. The Defence expects to start the re-education of
personnel for the performance of the troop transport task early in 2013.
High error rates and lengthy turnaround times for spare parts continue to complicate
maintaining the EH-101 helicopters. Getting the helicopters ready to perform the re-
quired tasks, including primarily the search and rescue tasks, is therefore a deman-
ding task for the Defence. The Defence has focus on the maintenance issues and is
cooperating with the suppliers on resolving the problems, and action has been taken
to improve the situation. However, the effect of these initiatives is long term and can-
not be assessed at this point.
Is the Danish Defence now positioned to estimate the total operational costs of the
EH-101 helicopters?
So far the Defence has not been able to estimate the total operational costs of the
EH-101 helicopters. The Defence is now positioned to do so and therefore has a bet-
ter basis for assessing the impact of the EH-101 helicopters on the economy. Ac-
cording to the estimates prepared by the Defence, total annual operational costs are
considerably higher than the DKK 76 million estimated at the time of procurement in
2001. In 2011 operational costs amounted to approximately DKK 214 million. This
increase reflects the fact that operating the EH-101 helicopters has turned out to be
more expensive than expected and that all significant costs are now included in the
estimate prepared by the Defence. Total operational costs will increase further when
the Defence starts using the EH-101 helicopters for transporting troops.

[dmanton300]

So most of that Danish report says "We ordered a big complicated helicopter and were surprised when we received a big complicated helicopter, and all the big complicated helicopter running costs have now been adjusted to include all the costs of running a big complicated helicopter, something the original projections for running a big complicated helicopter failed to include" :ok:

[antonio123]

The 101 is not at present a civilian aircraft but I understand that may change soon the problem is the 15153 is not civilian certificated.the Turks got round it because they can.

[Thomas coupling]

antonio 123: read post #61???

[dangermouse]

Series 300 and 500 got TC from CAA, FAA and RAI in 1994, Series 510 TC in 1998.

admittedly no 300/500 were delievered however the Tokyo Police Force do operate a -510 under full civil rules.

Other variants (Cormorant, DMRH, PoAF and JMSDF) used the TC as evidence that the aircraft was airworthy insted of using a 'military' certification.

DM

[antonio123]

thanks danger mouse so if bristows wanted to buy 101 could thy fly say the current international aircraft without removing the 1553 and putting its equipment onto arinc or afdx.

[antonio123]

Just done some digging and the current baseline 101 around which all 101 s are built (mainly avionics changes) ie the 640,641,643,643,611,644 are not civil qualified and can't be untill the equipment on the 1553 is moved the ins (egi) is replaced poss with second ahars i do remember a civil 101 years back but the current avionic baseline has changed .

[antonio123]

As far as i understand the current base standard for the 101 the international including 640 641 642 643 644 611 are not civillian qualified and it would take some investment to make it so .the company hack was i think many years ago but the avionic standard was a long way off todays basic model.

[Thomas coupling]

antonio, it's Bristow, not Bristows. And the 1553 databus fitted to mil platforms would not be fitted to any future orders that Bristow racked up if they so chose to purchase them. Having said that 1553 is now accepted by the FAA so it depends under which regulator people like Bristow would licence themselves. Either way it would not be a problem (except if parts on the DB fell under ITAR).

[meanttobe]

Engine shortage dogs Portuguese AW101 fleet (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/engine-shortage-dogs-portuguese-aw101-fleet-390590/)

This article is from Sept 13

[antonio123]

thanks for that Thomas I don't really see the problem with the 1553 on any aircraft but I have been informed that it is a barrier to certifying a civil 101 and it has been proposed to spend quite a lot of money to remove it I am sure time will tell.

[jimf671]

... if bristow wanted to buy 101 ...

Good one antonio. Hillarious!

[meanttobe]

Ironically enough Jim see extract below from AIN online from June 2009.




A third team, UK Air Rescue, formed initially by Bristow Helicopters, Serco and FB Heliservices and joined subsequently by AgustaWestland, withdrew last year, citing unspecified commercial reasons for bowing out. It had been expected to offer the AW101, probably in combination with a smaller type, but the other bidders’ selection of a single helicopter suggests the option of a mixed fleet might have been ruled out by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) and Ministry of Defence, which are managing the SAR-H program.

[antonio123]

you speak as if you have had bad experiences of the 101 jim:eek:

[llamaman]

From TC:

It is suggested that mil 101's on average are now down to 60% reliability rating.

The Danish statment says:

[QUOTE][The operational availability of the EH-101 helicopters has since 2010 varied between 53 and 55 per cent/QUOTE]

There is a BIG difference between reliability and availability. The 101 is actually an extremely reliable airframe IF supported by a suitable spares and maintenance package. The RAF found this out the hard way in the early days; once an adequate engineering support package was put in place reliabilty figures in the high 90s% have been consistently seen in some pretty harsh Operational environments.

[Thomas coupling]

Llama: You're splitting hairs methinks.

The Portuguese report even cites: High error rates in its findings.

From Canada:
The Cormorants have turned out to be a pilot’s dream, but a mechanic’s nightmare. The tail rotor in the adapted military version had a design flaw that our technicians are forced to wrestle with on a regular basis. There are reports that their ratio of time spent in maintenance, compared to time spent in the air, outstrips even the Sea Kings – at a breathtaking 30-to-1. But this shouldn’t have come as a surprise – our Cormorants are both Early Birds and Twisted Sisters.
If only pigs could fly.
[Colin Kenny is former chair of the Senate Committee on National Security and Defence].


Availability incorporates reliability. Why is it that the Brit Mil 101's even after their adequate engineering package are still finding they need 50hrs maintenance on the cab each time it flies for an hour then? Surely the logistics and supply line is adequate. Surely the knowledge bank and workmanship is adequate. Could it be the complex systems onboard? Could it be the aluminium lithium skin panels or carbon composites that are casuing problems. Could it be the three engines perhaps? Maybe databus EM screening issues? I think I'll stick to plain old: unreliable. ;)
A Bentley in a white van world. :sad:

[oldgrubber]

TC,
1/ The Royal Navy technicians don't "wrestle" with the tail rotor, it works.
2/ The new tail rotor doesn't have a design flaw, it comes off for bay service, then it goes back on; no drama.
3/ The Canadians STILL don't have an adequate support package for the aircraft.
4/ Provide your source for the 50 hr to 1hr ratio, don't forget we do what are called "flexops" in the RN, this is a deliberate "overmaintenance (in some people's eyes) and is often reported as such.
I loved the Seaking, I had my doubts about the Merlin, but now I'm sold. Jump on one of the bus tours around Culdrose for spotters and visit 824, see the lads and lasses put these aircraft into the sky day after day. Ask the people who actually work on them instead of repeating old, innacurate and unsupported comments and articles.

Cheers

[llamaman]

oldgrubber,

Good post from someone who actually has experience of the aircraft.

TC,

Personally, if I needed rescuing on a grim night in the northern North Sea I would take the Bentley option over the white van every time. The 101 is a fantastic platform for long range SAR if you can afford it, which the Norwegians can.

[antonio123]

good post old grubber could not agree more recent high profile rescue's around the world have proven that the 101 is a good aircraft the people involved with the aircraft like it .The VIP aircraft is proving popular with its users , quite often its knockers have other motives and don't have any real idea about the aircraft:suspect: .

[Thomas coupling]

Old grubber I am much much closer to the design hub for the 101 than you can ever imagine old boy. Believe me, I am being kind when I quote 50:1 for maintenance. If word got out about the real figures, all hell would break loose and AW would never sell another 101.
llama/antonio: read my posts slowly and carefully - I have never criticised the 101 for its capabilities, not once. God only knows if I had to fork out £40-50 million quid for one helicopter I'd want ot to everything and more, with bells on:rolleyes:
The cab is very capable. So too is a McClaren F1. It is simply NOT a practical helicopter for ANY job....it is over engineered. Nearly every modern heavy helo in the world can do what the 101 can do....for a quarter of the price.
Capiche?

[dmanton300]

The cab is very capable. So too is a McClaren F1. It is simply NOT a practical helicopter for ANY job....it is over engineered. Nearly every modern heavy helo in the world can do what the 101 can do....for a quarter of the price.
Capiche?

That's the second time you've made this assertion, but as yet have signally failed to name them and their price for a capability the same as the -101 offers. That's THE SAME, not ballpark, roughly or with extra tankage. We await with interest. As, no doubt, do the idiots in Norway who have ordered this "over engineered" monstrosity.

[jimf671]

I think the 101 decision in Norway is likely to be driven by the government belief in the need for carrying a large number of survivors. From amongst the competitors, it was the only one with the capability. That not everyone in Norwegian SAR believes in that requirement has made no difference.

[oldgrubber]

TC,

I know nothing about the S92/Cyclone other than I have read here and using good old Google, but I don’t see how an aircraft that causes whole body vibration white finger (according to some on here), has only two engines, can’t “run dry” for half an hour, loses significant casualty capability when it has internal fuel tanks, only has a four blade rotor head, doesn’t yet meet Canadian acceptance standards years after contract deadline, cracks, etc etc; can be as good as the Merlin. Far29 really?
I actually like the look of the NH90 family but like the S92 I only know what you knowledgeable people have written. It uses the RTM engine like the Merlin and is known as the “baby Merlin” when we talk about it at work. It uses composites and looks good too (probably because it looks like a baby Merlin), I think that is a contender for Seaking replacement around the world, so in this aircraft’s case; yes it could be an alternative.
The Blackhawk family? Well you guys seem to blow hot and cold but from what I can see it’s a capable aircraft, but long range SAR? The Seahawk too is ok but is what we’re after an ok aircraft or one that has “spare capacity”. It seems funny that some people on here say that when the S92 was originally advertised much was made of its compatabilty with existing Blackhawk components and technology and as soon as they started falling out of the sky it was; “Oh no it’s all new, nothing to see here move along!”
The Osprey, well any aircraft that can’t auto but hovers would make me nervous, but I don’t have to fly in it. Now that is an expensive aircraft TC.
The Chinook, well it is what it is and anyone who has been under one in the hover wouldn’t fancy being winched into it from a dinghy. I suppose it could blow the survivor towards rescue; bit slow as a method though. SASless loves them and he sounds Gnarley so I am not going to argue with him.
The fact that you’re close to the secret hub and you used the word “capiche” is enough for me. I bow to your vagueness and wish no disrespect to the “Don”. I’ll let the others argue with you as I’ve run out of steam and interest.


Cheers

[Vie sans frontieres]

At what height over the water are the Portuguese and Canadians (and others?) having to hover to rescue people from dinghies/small craft/the water in order to minimise the effect of the 101's downwash? Is the winch operator required to fly the aircraft to complete these tasks at night?

[llamaman]

TC,

If the Norwegians want to pay top whack for a 'gold-plated solution' and they can afford it then that is up to them. I struggle to see many alternatives that offer a similar combination of speed, cabin space, poor weather capability and low vibration levels. The 101 is remarkably vibration free at Vmax, a characteristic that is often glossed over but makes for a great environment for providing complex medical care whilst trying to get to a medical facility quickly.

Yes, the 101 is expensive and relatively high maintenance but if somebody is willing to accept those costs then why shouldn't they? If everybody thought like you Concorde would never have carried a single passenger and we'd all be driving VW Beetles.

Capiche?

[Vertical751]

Regarding the PoAF Merlin operation question: generally 60ft.
The pilot flies the aircraft.

From the operational point the view the EH-101 "Merlin" is very well loved in the portuguese ranks. For long-range SAR there´s no other machine like it. It´s expensive? Oh yeah. But it´s the best available. At least for the portuguese requirements and their massive SRR (the biggest in Europe, more or less 6.000.000 Sq Km).

You can visit 751 Squadron page on facebook: www.facebook.com/esquadra751

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1069903_597086030325103_1015726420_n.jpg

Cheers,

[Vertical751]

By the way, a very cool video about the portuguese Merlin operation: Rays of Hope on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/paulwex/raysofhope)

[Xmit]

VSF

Most 101 SAR operators seem to hover at around 60', which is a compromise between hover references, flyaway performance and downwash impact. UK variants (and others) have a hover trim control which may be used by the pilot via a cyclic-mounted trim switch or the winch operator via a separate stick. Which crewmember actually manoeuvers the helicopter in the hover will depend upon the situation.

[antonio123]

vertical 751 I am sure there are many people who are glad to see you I bet there are even some who are glad you drive the 101 match a good crew with a good aircraft and you have an unbeatable combination let the armchair critics have their say but you are out there doing it :D

[Thomas coupling]

Jim671: thank you.
Dmanton300: Of course there is no equivalent of the 101...don't you get it? Don't you understand why no-one has built another like it or why none of the civvy SAR operators operate it?
Can't you see where I am coming from?

Look: You are a private company answering to shareholders, or a governmental operator holding the public purse strings. Your task is to provide a SAR service for the military OR the general public (doesn't matter).
You have a clean sheet of paper. What would you do Dmanton...what would you select that is out there ready built and available????
IF you were totally honest with yourself AND me, you would never ever purchase a fleet of the most expensive helicopter in the world to do another run of the mill operation [SAR is run of the mill - it doesn't require special equpiment like supercomputers/guns/laser finders/stealth/supersonic flight/huge endurance]. You want a machine that can do MOST jobs MOST of the time for the budget. This is called a COST EFFECTIVE solution.
Of course the 101 ticks all the boxes - but this in itself is a problem, because you'd look a right prat turning up for a couple of stranded kids in a lilo in the middle of a lake, or to a bloke with a twisted ankle on the side of a hill in snowdon - in a 101 wouldn't you??? Of course you would hit the headlines as heroes rescuing a fisherman with broken ribs 400 miles off Sumburgh once every 2 or 3 years.
Someone has to weigh up the costs of rescuing someone.
An analogy: The 737 has (had) an inherent rudder problem with its screw jack, once in every "x" flying hours. When it happened, everybody onboard would crash and burn. The cost of the litigation was "Y". The cost of replacing the part was "Z". As long as Z>Y, don't fix the problem...it's not worth it.
The same goes for the 101. If someone did a cost based analysis they would conclude that the 101 is way over the top for the job.

Those who choose to proceed of course are entitled to do so, but their processes for proceeding are flawed from a financial perspective.

The S92, NH90, EC225, AS365, Mi-17, are all capable of doing most long range tasks most of the time. How often will anyone want to go past 450NMm? And yet each of these are substantially cheaper than the gold plated 101.

You have to remember that outside of the M.E, Norway are the richest country (per capita) in the world. As far as Portugal goes: from an economic perspective they are bankrupt, so how or why they bought these suggests foul play at work:E:E. The same could be said for another country, like, er, let's see, um: ah yes: India, perhaps. Now what was the problem there then with the 101 purchase :suspect::suspect:

[llamaman]

TC,

Mi-17 for long range SAR, did you have a few beers after work tonight? I'm assuming you haven't flown it?

[tottigol]

Well, it seems that in his last couple of posts TC is finally shedding the last vestiges of the sheepskin and revealing the fur of the fox calling the grapes sour.
I would not wish MY ENEMIES had to be rescued by a Mi-17 and I have sincere doubts regarding the AS-365 range when carrying anything more than a couple of letters if outfitted for SAR work.
That would leave two candidates of which perhaps the EC-225 being the least expensive to operate, and the NH-90, of which there are no dedicated SAR variants to date if I remember correctly.

The rest is rubbish.

[ARRAKIS]

I would not wish MY ENEMIES had to be rescued by a Mi-17

Could you elaborate on that one?

Arrakis

[tottigol]

Huge amount of vibrations, slow and underpowered airframe.
Not suited for SAR work, and although probably inexpensive to operate so is the Bell 206.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Does hovering at just 60' not present problems when rescuing people from dinghies, lilos and small vessels? How often do the Portuguese/Canadians have to do tasks like these?

[jimf671]

Mi-17?

:yuk:

Are the number of accidents and fatallities in Mi8/Mi17 not a little excessive?

[ARRAKIS]

Polish Air Force has them for years. The last airframe loss was in 2002 IIRC (it wasn't exactly helicopter's fault) - a lot of luck and no human losses. You just have to fly/maintain them by the book and use original spare parts. If you don't, it's asking for troubles like on any other machine.

Going back to AW101, I just wonder how the new Mi-38 will compare to it. They are wery close comparing MTOW and dimensions, but the latter is still just a prototype.

By the way, if someone is interested, the public part of NAWSARH requirements is accessible here:

http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/JD/Vedlegg/Kampanjesider/NAWSARH/NAWSARH_Requirement_Document_28092011_web.pdf

Arrakis

[Vertical751]

Does hovering at just 60' not present problems when rescuing people from dinghies, lilos and small vessels? How often do the Portuguese/Canadians have to do tasks like these?

It depends on the situation but generally no. There´s no problem at all hovering at 60 feet.
SAR missions on the portuguese SRR are actually quite often.

Regarding the long range capabilities: there´s no match for AW101 Merlin. Not the S-92 and not the EC225 .
Of course it always depends on your country or company requirements. Portugal has a massive Search and Rescue Region (SRR). The biggest in Europe actually, so the Merlin is a logical choice for Portugal. It´s not a "nice to have", it´s a "must have". SAR missions beyond 320 Nautical Miles (and we consider that extreme long-range, wich requires from the crew special attention to planning) are quite often, specially in the Azores.

The bottom line is: it´s expensive? Yes. A lot. But it´s an amazing machine and from my personal operational point of view and experience it´s the most safe and capable SAR machine out there.
If you have the money - and the requirement - then it´s the perfect choice.

Great weekend everybody!



Portuguese SRR region (FIR Santa Maria and FIR Lisboa)

http://www.emfa.pt/www/po/esq751/conteudos/homepage/sar/sar_1.jpg


Morsa Exercise Video, where you can see the downwash effect on a target:

z9ifo2i2Td0

Rescue of fisherman from a 18m fishing vessel:

XC-kLynnLfc


SAREX exercise with a portuguese navy corvette:

h48h0n9gWLc

[Vie sans frontieres]

Nice videos, but they don't prove anything. The 101's famously strong downwash can only really be appreciated in the third video and it's way behind the aircraft, suggesting the wind is strong enough for the downwash not to be a hazard on this occasion.


The behaviour of the weighted orange sack in the first video is not representative of how a lightweight dinghy, lilo or small craft such as a dive boat, pleasure cruiser or small sailing vessel are going to behave when exposed to strong downwash that is directly beneath the hoist. It's therefore a bit much to claim that the 101 is the world's most capable SAR aircraft (as has been done twice on this thread) when this Achilles' heel would have a notable impact on the operating procedures adopted by the crew in circumstances such as these, not to mention overland situations where casualties may be perched on small ledges or steep slopes. Big is not always beautiful.

[jimf671]

There have been downwash accidents from ec135 to chinook in recent SAR. S-92 is a culture change in the UK and same for 101 in Norway. Is that worse than a helicopter in 8000' mountains with a 3200' performance limitation?

[llamaman]

There is no such beast as the perfect SAR helicopter, every design will have a number of compromises. The 101 is a fantastic long range, (almost) all weather platform with a big cabin and a very useful FCS/autopilot combination. The BERP blade design gives a lot of performance benefits but increased downwash from the 'paddle' tips is the sacrifice. Not such a problem when winching over a large vessel at sea but definitely an issue when small vessels or crag-fast climbers are the customer. Clearly, the Norwegians have identified that the former is more likely to be of concern.

An interesting feature of the downwash is the 'doughnut' pattern of turbulence that is produced. It's very fierce towards the extremities but remarkably calm in the middle. If the wind on the day means you can position your target within the centre of the 'doughnut' it makes life very easy. On other days not so much!

[Vertical751]

Nice videos, but they don't prove anything. The 101's famously strong downwash can only really be appreciated in the third video and it's way behind the aircraft, suggesting the wind is strong enough for the downwash not to be a hazard on this occasion.

From my personal professional experience in SAR with the AW101 I can assure you that we never had a problem regarding the downwash. It´s, without any doubt, very very strong, but there´s several ways of working around it and you just have to adapt for each situation (as everybody in SAR does).

Exclude the Merlin as a SAR platform just because of the strong downwash doesn´t make sense. And I should know. I have dozens of SAR recoveries with it.

As llamaman put it:
There is no such beast as the perfect SAR helicopter, every design will have a number of compromises. :D:D:D

By the way, a cool photo where you can appreciate the strong downwash and the "doughnut" effect llamaman refered. (and yes, in the middle is as calm as a summer day ;) )
Photo by Jorge Ruivo

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1043948_10151457190782234_251167847_n.jpg

[Vie sans frontieres]

Big doughnut, little hole. That downwash is horrendous.

[dmanton300]

Big doughnut, little hole. That downwash is horrendous.

Sounds like the perfect donut. Coffee? :E

But the salient point is that we have a contributor who has had to deal with that downwash during dozens of recoveries stating clearly and unambiguously that yes it's strong, and no, it's never been an issue while he works. So not irrelevant, but apparently not a showstopper or game changer.

[ShyTorque]

When the UK military considered the Puma for SAR the consensus from the experts was that the down-wash was too intense to make it practical.

Yet we "gash" SH pilots found that it was possible to bring that aircraft to a very low hover over a ten man dinghy, trap it, and for survivors to climb directly into the cabin. No winching required.

[Vie sans frontieres]

The question was asked: how often do the Portuguese and Canadians have to rescue people from dinghies, lilos and very small craft? No answer was given. Read into that what you will. To claim that an aircraft type is the world's most capable in the SAR role is misleading when it is only being used for some limited aspects of that role.

[Vertical751]

The question was asked: how often do the Portuguese and Canadians have to rescue people from dinghies, lilos and very small craft? No answer was given. Read into that what you will.

Sorry for the late reply.

In 2011 the portuguese Merlins flew 608:20 hours on real SAR and/or AIREV (Aeromedical Evacuation) missions. 173 recoveries.
In 2012 more then 430 hours, with 157 recoveries.


I honestly don´t know the real proportion but it´s fair to estimate that at least 10% of those missions were recoveries from small ships, dinghies or even from the water. I can surely remember several of them. On my last 3 months I had at least 3 operational recoveries from vessels smaller then the helicopter.

I would like to emphasize this, because I don´t what to be misinterpreted: the downwash is in fact very strong, but that´s a compromise regarding all the other specs of the helicopter. So, like all other SAR operators out there, we adapt. You apply new techniques and news procedures to minimize the effect of the downwash. And from my personal experience, the downwash has not been a factor.

In our view - and I guess the Canadians think the same - the range the Merlin brings to the table is far more important then the eventual strong downwash effect. But, then again, both of our countries have enormous SRR. If you only need to go 100 NM offshore, you have better cost-effective options, for sure.

Well, all I wanted to say was "congrats to Norway!". Great SAR helicopter. :D

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/558508_404616429572065_1795252383_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/424403_336788076354901_720787435_n.jpg

Regards,

[llamaman]

Vertical751,

Nice post from somebody with the credibility of having actually operated the aircraft on SAR missions. In my experience, people are very quick to criticise a new aircraft, usually the most critical are those that have never flown it. As you have said, for a country with a relatively large SRR it's a good option.

[John Eacott]

V751, interesting stuff: good to hear the Merlin is highly regarded by the operator.

All this is similar to the concerns when we moved from the Wessex to the Sea King, although it was just crew room chat since (fortunately) t'internet was a nightmare yet to arrive! Concerns about downwash were easily rectified by upping the hover height from 30', and any half competent crew is quite capable of getting to the half dozen lilo rescues per decade in one way or another. With so many hours as a SAR machine for the Portuguese and the Canadians, Vie SF, don't you think that you're making a mountain out of a very small molehill?

[Vie sans frontieres]

No, I don't. This is just one SAR environment, significantly offshore which for the most part experiences windspeeds strong enough to disperse the downwash. The claim was made - twice - that this is the world's most capable SAR helicopter but no amount of careful forethought can fully mitigate the effects downwash like that in most SAR environments, especially coastal and overland.

[Vertical751]

No, I don't. This is just one SAR environment, significantly offshore which for the most part experiences windspeeds strong enough to disperse the downwash. The claim was made - twice - that this is the world's most capable SAR helicopter but no amount of careful forethought can fully mitigate the effects downwash like that in most SAR environments, especially coastal and overland.

Our SAR missions are not exclusive to offshore environments, in spite of being the majority of it. Even so, the conditions - wind conditions as well - are not that different. But even if you have a 0kt wind condition the operation is quite safe (I remind you we hoover at 60ft over sea, normally lower in land, depending on the operational scenario).

A big part of our rescue effort is cliff rescue and in this case we do have extra attention to the downwash effect to assure that no loose rocks can affect our operation. Once again, we adapt. We know the aircraft and we study the terrain.

In fact, and because we´re talking about "inshore" operations, in late April this year the south of Portugal was affected by some unusual strong floods. I was the captain on one rescue mission where we had an individual stuck in the middle of a flooded riverbank, with his car totally submerged. More or less 40NM from the coastline. I remember this mission well because when we recovered the guy he was worried about his car. Not his life. Go figure.
The operation went exactly like any other sea rescue regarding our procedure. Wind conditions? 10-15kts.

Here´s a pic (at 60ft with 5-10kts the downwash goes back, as you can see):

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/942115_10151372220832234_1949974807_n.jpg


Bottom line: based on my experience I don´t think the AW101 downwash is the key factor when evaluating the aircraft. We have 8 years of SAR experience with the Merlin with no problems so far regarding the downwash.

Best regards,

[meanttobe]

All the talking done by the looks of it. Sign here please!!




AgustaWestland awarded contract - regjeringen.no (http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/jd/agenda/nye-redningshelikoptre/nawsarh/news-2/agustawestland-awarded-contract.html?id=747436)

[dmanton300]

And here was me thinking this thread had been killed by facts!

[512]

Good news for AgustaWestland Yeovil

AgustaWestland Signs Norwegian All Weather SAR Helicopter Contract For 16 AW101 Helicopters | AgustaWestland (http://www.agustawestland.com/news/agustawestland-signs-norwegian-all-weather-sar-helicopter-contract-16-aw101-helicopters)

:D:D:D:D:D

[Vertical751]

Nice video of a Portuguese 751 Squadron AW101 rescue off the coast of the Azores.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154035663980564&set=vb.130357383664639&type=2&theater

Cheers,

[Hilife]

I hear on the grapevine, allegations of a 4 to 6 year delay for EIS, with an interim contract being discussed.

If indeed the case, then godtroenhet comes to mind.

[Thomas coupling]

Noggs have just extended their Sea King lifex (again) as the replacement 101 is proving harder to prepare than expected - ETA: 2020..........................and counting.