'Flight Information Service' radio call

[Oxeagle]

Morning chaps,

Was off on a solo navigation flight yesterday afternoon, and once I had passed West of Stratford-upon-Avon I changed frequency to Birmingham Radar to ask for a Flight Information Service. I made the radio call 'Birmingham Radar, G-XXXX, Requesting Flight Infomation Service' and expected to be told to 'Stand By' or 'Pass your message' or something to the affect. Instead, the controller replies 'G-XXXX Flight Information Service you have, 1024'. :confused:

Isn't he supposed to ask me to pass my details i.e. TRPACER before he gives me the Flight Information Service? Or could it be that he is familiar with my flying school's aircraft as they pass by on the same route most days and so already knows where i'm going?

If someone could clarify this it would be much appreciated

Cheers,


Ox

[cessna l plate]

I stand to be corrected (or savaged as the case may be) but when making a first call all I ever give is my callsign. This prompts the controller to ask for my full details. A FIS is not a lot really, all they really have to do (correct me if I am wrong) is provide an alerting service and deal with any flight safety issues you might have, for instance "is such and such a MATZ active?" Therefore if you ask for a FIS on the initial call then they will give it you and little else. That's why I only give the callsign, it forces some of the not so helpful controllers to actually ask for all the info.

[gcolyer]

It could well be because he knows the schools aircraft.
I usualy put a basic call in before i request FIS...usually

XXXX G-AVFU

Then i get told to pass my message. That is when i go through "TRPACER" and request FIS.

The main thing is you contacted brimingham and got what you want without causing an issue.

[Oxeagle]

Thanks for your replies,
I guess everyone has their own way of initiating a conversation with an ATSU; I have just been taught to pass registration and request i.e. Flight Information Service so that the controller knows what to expect next

Cheers,


Ox

[Julian]

I always make initial call with just my callsign. Reasoning behind this is you dont know what the controller is in the middle of so no point giving your life story until he is ready for it.

J.

[gcolyer]

I always make initial call with just my callsign. Reasoning behind this is you dont know what the controller is in the middle of so no point giving your life story until he is ready for it.

J.


I follow the same theory.

Mind you in the US i find it very common just to call ATC give the life story rather than wait to be told to pass message.

[dublinpilot]

Oxeagle's initial call is the correct one per cap 413

'Birmingham Radar, G-XXXX, Requesting Flight Information Service'

You are supposed to state what you are looking for in your initial call....this change a few years ago from the old situation where you just gave your call sign.

Why do people say what they do, rather than what is correct? Oxeagle is makeing the correct call....let's not try and change that!


As for why the controller didn't ask for any additional information, could you have gotten a handover from a previous unit? If the previous controller told you to "Contact Birmingham Radar on xxx.xx" then you got a handover. That means that he has given all your details to Birmingham Radar by phone to make it easier to you.

If on the other hand you were told to "Freecall Birmingham Radar on xxx.xx" then he has not passed your details on, and you would expect to have to be asked to pass your message after your initial call.

dp

[Oxeagle]

dublinpilot,

Thanks for clearing that up. I had just taken off from Wellesbourne Mountford, and as they are an AFIS I notified them that I was changing frequency to Birmingham Radar.

Ox

[hobbit1983]

G-XXXX Flight Information Service you have

Almost sounds like it was Yoda on the other end...:8

[Whopity]

Nice to see that Oxeagle is doing it correctly, Well Done. Don't be deflected by those who seem to know better than the controllers who wrote the books.

[Talkdownman]

The books:

The RTF Procedure is in CAP413 Chapter 10 Page 20.
FIS is nicely summarised in AIC 48/2004 (Pink 65).

[Flik Roll]

ATC unit can forward your details on to your next POC you know.... :} Hence why they didn't ask for any, saves taking up room with passing masses of info when in a busy bit of airspace.

[metar]

I spoke to an Edinburgh controller recently who said that the reason they like getting "Edinburgh Approach G-**** request flight information service" as the initial call is so that they can get the appropriate plate out for a FIS to write the details onto it. Apparently they have different colours for different types of service.

Amazingly useless trivia, but apparently that's the logic behind mentioning what you want initially THEN passing full details when they are ready.

[Oxeagle]

ATC unit can forward your details on to your next POC you know.... :} Hence why they didn't ask for any, saves taking up room with passing masses of info when in a busy bit of airspace.
That's all good and well Flik Roll, apart from the fact that Wellesbourne Information had no idea I intended to change frequency to Birmingham Radar until I informed them I was doing so ;) Unless there's some kind of common psychic link between ATCOs that i'm not aware of...

Cheers Whopity, it's down to having exceptionally good instructors :)

[BigAl's]

I know what you mean Ox. I had something similar on my PPL skills test, it did phase me a bit as you tend to have an expectation, and are therefore prepared with what to say/do next! :bored:

As whopity said tho, as long as you do your bit right, that's what counts!! :)

[gcolyer]

it did phase me a bit as you tend to have an expectation, and are therefore prepared with what to say/do next! :bored:



This is a good point. Advise that many instructors give (which I am not saying is wrong) is to try and anticipate yuor radio calls and their responses. So it is no surprise when a curve gets thrown at you, you have to think twice.

[Fuji Abound]

Gcolyer

Sorry if I missed it, but I am interested if you think you received a hand over, or were give a transponder squawk or how ATC new where or what you were.

It would also be interesting to know what you expected to receive from the service. There doesnt seem any point asking for a service if you think that in theory having been given it, the service in fact is not being provided.

[gcolyer]

Fuji...

What I meant was sometimes we expect to hear certain responses, and get a little surprised when we dont hear what we expect.

Example..

XXXX G-AVFU request FIS

G-AVFU FIS you Have

I would have expected something like

G-AVFU state positoin and type (and maybe even ask for origin and dest)

PA32 sle of man to Newtonards 2000ft mid channel G-AVFU

G-AVFU FIS you have


If I have been told I have FIS then I beleive I have FIS, I would just be puzzled why i was not asked for full details (unless I had been handed over)

[Fuji Abound]

Gcolyer

I understood that part, I was just interested given the other posts, whether you now think you were handed over or were given a squawk. How do you think ATC knew where you were and what did you expect them to provide you with once they said you had a FIS? In other words if you knew there was no possibility of your having been handed over and ATC in response to your request said you had a FIS is it within your expectations that they could provide you with the service proposed?

[dublinpilot]

Fuji,

I think you're asking the wrong person the question :O

It was Oxeagle who had the flight and r/t conversation in question, not gcolyer :p

dp

[Fuji Abound]

DP

Sorry - Oxeagle it is.

(Another large mouthful of red wine for me - embarassed)

[Flik Roll]

Apolgies Oxeagle, I automatically assumed :uhoh:

[Brian304]

Hey everyone

Just wondered is it possible to request for a Radar information service instead of an FIS on stations such as birmingham radar? As I used a RIS instead of FIS in america, but don't know if it works here in UK.

Regards

Brian304:ok:

[gcolyer]

Fuji,

I think you're asking the wrong person the question :O

It was Oxeagle who had the flight and r/t conversation in question, not gcolyer :p

dp


Thanks for that. I thought i was starting to loose the plot.

[mm_flynn]

Brian, you are probably using FlightWatch in the US. Which feels a little like RIS but is more similar to the French FIS with Radar service (no idea what they call it). With RIS you will have 'all known' conflicting traffic called where as with FlightWatch they will, time available, call traffic that is likely to merge with your radar target.

[Chilli Monster]

you are probably using FlightWatch in the US.
I think you mean "Flight Following" (Flight Watch is totally different again).

Brian - yes, no reason why you can't ask for a RIS but it is subject to Controller workload. If that Controller's primary job is vectoring and handling their own inbounds / outbounds and they're busy doing that then you may not get it, in which case you may have to put up with a FIS. However, you don't know until you ask.

Oxeagle - thank you, you're doing it right. As a FIS is effectively the lowest of the 3 services provided outside CAS and doesn't need you to be identified then it's not unusual to be told "Flight Information Service, QNH is ****, pass your message" (I do it all the time). After that all we want to know is what you're in, where you're from, where you're going, how high?

That's it - easy :)

[mm_flynn]

I think you mean "Flight Following" (Flight Watch is totally different again).

My Brain Fade - Flight Watch = what's the weather - Flight Following = am I gonna hit someone:O

[chevvron]

Nothing to stop you asking for RIS from any radar equipped ATC unit, but you're more likely to get it from one that's notified as a LARS unit; as mentioned by Chilli, you may be refused due to controller workload if it's not a LARS unit. You may however, under FIS be allocated a transponder code for conspicuity (but not formally identified), so the controller can get back to you if he thinks you may conflict with his other traffic.
Can anyone advise how different 'flight following' is from RIS? I believe it's officially termed 'VFR Flight Following'.

[englishal]

Can anyone advise how different 'flight following' is from RIS? I believe it's officially termed 'VFR Flight Following'.
-Your details are handed off automatically to the next controller
-You won't be asked to "free call" anyone. In the case in a break in radar coverage you will be told "remain on this sqwark, radar services terminated, contact XYZ at ABC" and they will already have your details. Examples are heading through mountain passes.
-You are cleared through all airspace, class C and below, automatically just by being "Radar contact"ed
-You will get vectors if they don't want you to go through certain airspace
-They can clear you thorough restricted areas
-Many TFRs disappear when you are with ATC and have a transponder code
-Civil and military controllers can hand you between each other
-You will get vectors through bad convective weather if you ask for it (they paint it on their radars)

I've probably forgotten a few....

[gcolyer]

-Your details are handed off automatically to the next controller
-You won't be asked to "free call" anyone.


I have routed from Daytona to Jacksonville and Dayton told me to squawk VFR and free call Jacksonville, whilst under VFR Flight Following.

I think during busy times ATC will/can drop VFR flight following services in some airspaces class's, but I am not totally certain.

[Droopystop]

In answer to the original question, it may be that the controller had DF on your RT so could see which dot was talking to him. This, combined with a mode C transponder (?), gave him all he needed to know about your position.

People who just pass their callsign on initial contact end up having to "pass your message" - rather airtime greedy when the conversation can be as short as the one Oxeagle had.

[BigEndBob]

After a visit to Birmingham ATC many years ago, i discovered it helps if you give on initial call the type of service you want i.e. FIS, RIS, Zone Entry, inbound or Transit. The ATCO can then select the appriopriate coloured flight strip to fill in and it saves them time.

[Saab Dastard]

'G-XXXX Flight Information Service you have, 1024'

Now I don't think I'm being pedantic, but what does the 1024 mean here? Is it the QNH? Or is it the assigned squawk?

This is the kind of seemingly trivial ambiguity that can sometimes be a part of one of those chains that end up in an accident.

If in doubt, check and confirm.

SD

[NorthSouth]

Oxeagle:
Your response from Brum "FIS you have" is ATC speak for "don't expect anything from us pal, we've got much more important things to do than give you information". To be fair since Brum isn't a LARS unit they have no obligation to give you anything but the general perception is that Birmingham ATC does not want to speak to light aircraft outside their airspace because they don't have the resources to do that as well as their main task of controlling IFR traffic inside their airspace.
You can always tell. If they don't ask you anything about who you are/what you are etc it means they have no intention of giving you any meaningful service.
NS

[Droopystop]

NS,

In which case ATC should suggest a freecall to London Information instead of comitting themselves to a service they don't have the capacity to deal with.

[Fuji Abound]

In answer to the original question, it may be that the controller had DF on your RT so could see which dot was talking to him. This, combined with a mode C transponder (?), gave him all he needed to know about your position.

Exactly. That was why I raised the questions I did earlier. I dont see how a FIS could have been provided without this information. Could the controller have relied on DF alone or was the aircraft in fact given a squawk? I wonder whether I am wrong about my understanding of what can be expected from a FIS?

[Chilli Monster]

Fuji

There is no need to identify an aircraft to provide a FIS (otherwise how would non-radar units like London Info be able to provide it?). There isn't even a need to know exactly where they are (it just helps for what a FIS can give as will be detailed below).

A FIS is defined as follows:

6 Flight Information Service

6.1 A Flight Information Service (FIS) is a non-radar service provided, either separately or in conjunction with other services, for the purposes of supplying information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flights.

Under a FIS the following conditions apply:

a) Provision of the service includes information about weather, changes of
serviceability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes and any other information
pertinent to safety.

b) The controller may attempt to identify the flight for monitoring and co-ordination purposes only. Such identification does not imply that a radar service is being provided or that the controller will continuously monitor the flight. Pilots must be left in no doubt that they are not receiving a radar service.

c) Controllers are not responsible for separating or sequencing aircraft.

6.2 In addition to the above, controllers will, subject to workload, provide pilots with information concerning collision hazards to aircraft operating in Class C, D, E, F or G airspace when self evident information from any source indicates that a risk of collision may exist. It is accepted that this information may be incomplete and the controller cannot assume responsibility for its issuance at all times or for its accuracy

The italicised / highlighted text are especially relevant in this scenario, proving as they do that you don't need everything to put the aircraft under a FIS, but you do need the information eventually to provide the service more completely.

Going off at a tangent on what has been posted previously - A DF trace matched to a radar return is NOT a valid means of radar identification.

[woottsbj25]

Incidentally, just to add my 2 cents - when I fly out of Blackpool (my local) and am just doing work in the local area, my instructor has always taught me to call up Blackpool Radar and say something along the lines of "Blackpool Radar, G-XXXX, departing north, looking for dlight information service." Then, when calling up any other frequencies, to simply start with the callsign.

[Fuji Abound]

Chilli

It still seems to me that it would be difficult to provide the service if you had no idea where the aircraft was (always accepting that in reality you may be intending to provide the absolute minimium of service due to workload).

Thinking about it, it leaves me wondering whether it might help if the service the pilot was getting should be more specifically defined. For example a RIS will be qualified if radar performance is poor.

If two aircraft are routing to the same VOR at the same height with the same expected ETA and the controller is not going to warn of the traffic due to controller workload perhaps that should be made clear when the service is agreed between the parties.

[Chilli Monster]

Fuji

Alternatively the pilot could actually understand the limitations and restrictions on what they're asking for.

When I ask for FIS all I'm after is pressures and any airsace info (e.g short notice NOTAM activity). ATC don't need to know all my details to supply that initially (as I said) but it helps later (as I said).

A FIS is the LOWEST form of ATC service and as such is not subject to the agreed, verbal contract required for RIS or RAS (hence there is no need to the pilot to read it back). You can't "Limit" a FIS - that would be nothing at all.

[Fuji Abound]

Chilli

I don’t agree.

As you said this is the service the controller is presumably required to provide:

Provision of the service includes information about weather, changes of
serviceability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes and any other information
pertinent to safety.

and I would agree the controller doesn’t really need to know where you are to do that.

As you also said this is the service that the controller may also be providing:

The controller MAY attempt to identify the flight for monitoring and co-ordination purposes only.

In addition to the above, controllers WILL, subject to workload, provide pilots with information concerning collision hazards to aircraft operating in Class C, D, E, F or G airspace when self evident information from any source indicates that a risk of collision may exist.

Note the use of the words may and will but the caveat "subject to workload".

So my point was, how do you know what bits of the service you are getting. I appreciate you should assume you are getting none of the optional bits.

You can't "Limit" a FIS - that would be nothing at all.

.. .. .. but is that strictly true. With a FIS it seems to me at the very least you have established two way communication, and you can expect to receive information you might request that is relevant to safety and as you set out.

Thus with a FIS just established followed by an engine failure you know you are on a station where presumably the controller is going to be ready to take some details and provide what ever help might be possible.

On the other hand, what has not been established is whether, due to controller work load, he is going to have time to tell you as I mentioned before that two aircraft are likely to arrive at the same point in space at the same time. You simply don’t know - he might, he might not, so you assume even if he knows he wont :confused: .

I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with the protocol, just pointing out that unless I have misunderstood that is the way it is and that unless the controllers knows where you are and where you are going it is very unlikely he is providing the optional bits!

[chevvron]

I know of at least two approach units north of London who used to 'limit' FIS with the full knowledge of CAA; one is now closed, the other is now tower only.