MHS Puma off radar screen today

[Oakhampton]

Early reports that MHS might have lost their second helicopter in three months, disappeared off radar screens in same location as last incident?
Thoughts are with all crew / personnel concerned and let's hope it turns out to be a false alarm.

[NorthSeaTiger]

Any update to this ?

[forget]

One missing, 9 rescued in Malaysia chopper crash

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP59011.htm

[NorthSeaTiger]

That's their 2nd L2 isn't it ? And did they not have an L a while back with a tail rotor pitch bearing problem ?

[rancid]

Helicopter crashes off Bintulu, survivors found

KUALA LUMPUR: Seven Petronas Carigali oilrig workers and two pilots miraculously survived a helicopter crash after a helicopter ferrying them crashed into the sea some 80km off Bintulu Tuesday.
Search and rescue operations are underway for one other missing oilrig worker, whose name has not been disclosed.
In a statement, Petronas said the Super Puma L2 helicopter belonging to Malaysian Helicopter Services (MHS) crashed at about 2.30pm pm, shortly after leaving an offshore platform for another rig.
The helicopter was to have arrived at its destination at about 2.40pm but the Miri control tower, lost contact with it midway.
Petronas will release more information as soon as it is available.

[Pailet]

Yes, it is the 2nd L2 within 3 months for that company.

But not the same location. Earlier was in State of Terengganu ( East Coast of West Malaysia - Peninsular)

The latest was in State of Sarawak ( East Malaysia - Borneo )

[Hidden Agenda]

A Vietnamese registered AS 332L2, a Malaysian Captain and a Vietnamese First Officer, in Malaysian Airspace. What are the chances of getting meaningful feedback by way of a published accident report?

[Super 61]

The aircraft was on contract to Shell. You'll get all the reports you need, and then a few more, don't worry.

[Hidden Agenda]

So the company with probably the most to lose is going to tell everyone what really happened.

Now that fills me with hope!

[quichemech]

Mr Agenda. Why so cynical? Have you delt with either oil company or the operator. Mhs is a very professional outfit and the staff at Miri are excellent, ops and engineering.

[alouette]

Ahh...maybe those flying quiche-loraines are not as good as they are supposed to be. Would be interesting to know the cause of two accidents within three months.

[NorthSeaTiger]

Apparantly a massive loss of Hydraulics from the L/H system.

[charron]

Apparantly a massive loss of Hydraulics from the L/H system.

You got to be kidding me. There is no helicopter certified in the world with dual hydraulics that cannot safely fly for the rest of the day on the remaining system. More likely a decision to ditch because of a pilot perception of risk, like the Bristow Puma in den Helder.

charron

[Teefor Gage]

You got to be kidding me. There is no helicopter certified in the world with dual hydraulics that cannot safely fly for the rest of the day on the remaining system.

It's amazing how quick you guys are to pull others apart when you don't have all, or sometimes any of the facts.
You would be more correct to say that a loss of hydraulics should not cause a major problem. But where did the hydraulic fluid go to and did this give rise to something else ............. fire maybe? Not sure I would try to see how long I could last in the air with that happening!!
Your assumptions on the Den Helder situation are much the same - assumptions. Unless of course you know something the rest of us dont.

[SASless]

A hydraulic fed fire?

I know a wee bit about that situation and have the scars to prove it.

Whether you could fly for long with a fire depends upon the place in the aircraft where the fire is located, whether it is a return line or pressure line that lets go, and what kind of terrain you are flying over and whether you are VMC or IMC.

A simple leak or return line breech makes for a nice polite fire...one that could possibly be dealt with by means of a hand held extinguisher depending upon the location and access by the crew.

When a pressure line lets go and feeds the fire....that is an altogether different event. My fire was in the chin bubble area where the aircraft utility system supplied the brake system. That was a 1500 PSI system with a return pressure of about 125 PSI. I assume the return line was severed first and generated a pretty good fire but a very short while later the pressure line must have gone because that fire filled the left side of the cockpit where I was sitting. Some of the flames were pulled out of the chin bubble area and carried down the left side of the aircraft and actually melted the skin of the aircraft up to 30 feet back.

If the failure would have involved the flight control system operating at a 3000 PSI pressure, the fire would have been horrendous.

We stayed in the air....landing was impossible due to the weather and sheer lack of a clearing to use. We finally got the fire out, probably because the utility system had exhausted its contents.

Trust me when I say.....you do not ever want to have that kind of experience but if you do....land as quickly as you can.

I can assure you a flight control system failure on a 2500-3500 PSI system would cause a catastrophic fire.

[Teefor Gage]

Having scoured the web for further news, I came across one which could indicate a fire of some sort. However, we all know that initial "eye witness" reports can be somewhat different from reality.

News article from Malaysian National News Agency (http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=244472)

[Hippolite]

Not a good few months for the industry.

MHS AS332L2: The cew experienced control problems and smoke in the cockpit and decided to ditch, probably wisely.

BRISTOW AS332L2: The Bristow G JSAR also reported control problems prior to ditching.

Previous MHS accident unlikely to be mechanically related.

2 out of 3 332L2 accidents probably mechanically related.

[NorthSeaTiger]

Apparantly a massive loss of Hydraulics from the L/H system.

You got to be kidding me.

Well not according to the Eurocopter Alert Telex !

[Teefor Gage]

Apparantly a massive loss of Hydraulics from the L/H system.

You got to be kidding me.

Well not according to the Eurocopter Alert Telex !


Would you care to enlighten us as to the contents of said Alert Telex etc?

[SASless]

Are the two flight control systems completely independent of one another or is there some reason a complete fluid leak or loss of pressure on one system is able to cause problems on the remaining system?

Is there any place in the two systems where fluid could be passed to the other by a malfunction such as a leaking seal?

One would like to think they were truely separate and equal systems.

The early Chinooks had one place where a leaking seal could allow systems to transfer fluid but that very rarely happened and it did not cause either system to fail. The major symptom was one system showed overfull and the other always needed topping off.

[charron]

News article from Malaysian National News Agency (http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=244472)

Jeez, they've had their share of problems down there. I assume these incidents are just on the L2 and there are more on the other types they fly. Interesting that the Transport Minister would impose his own weather restrictions on the operator. Can we assume a loss of the Minister's confidence in the decision making of that company's pilots- at least with regards to variable weather offshore?

The mention of smoke in the cockpit would certainly add some drama to the decision the captain is going to have to make. Land immediately or as soon as possible sounds great when you're over the Kalahari, a bit more complex a hundred miles offshore with a significant sea state. Loss of a hydraulic system on its own is like losing any other redundant system like an engine, boost pump, transmission oil pump, etc. - an inconvenience that you hope won't get more complicated.

Curious if in training anybody ever mentions that a hyraulic leak could result in smoke.

I guess these decisions are why the captains get paid the big bucks.

charon

[widgeon]

Strange not to hear from Helicomparitor .

[he1iaviator]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please do not pay the slightest heed to anything that appears in the Malaysian press. In fact it is sad that anyone thinks quoting from the press constitutes a useful contribution to this forum. They are only interested in dramatising events of which they have little or no understanding with no consideration of the consequences of their misinformation. How often have you been involved in an event which was reported in the press and found that the report bore very little relation to what actually happened?

For example, to quote Bernama: "On Feb 23 last year, the engine of another Super Puma helicopter caught fire when it was about to take off from the Miri airport. It was then carrying 14 oil rig workers." I believe that I am correct in saying that this was in fact a hot engine start that did not even require the use of a fire extinguisher or any maintenance action!

Let's wait for at least an interim report before making judgments on the competency of an experienced and professional crew, who were trained to the very high standards required by Shell.

He1i :mad:

[212man]

Charron,
the first ditching was an L/L1 model, not an L2, and was TR related. The year prior to that they also had an S-61 with a TR 'problem' (well cable routing problem), that force landed after take off from Kerteh. The first L2 accident does not appear to have been mechanically related (hence the references to weather limits).

Apart from hydraulic fires that SAS describes, you can get a smoke effect from high pressure hydraulic fluid atomising through small pin-prick holes. It creates a sickly smelling mist.

[HeliComparator]

Widgeon, I try not to post unless I have something useful to say and in this case there doesn't seem to be much information over and above the EC alert telex. As far as I am aware the aircraft is still at the bottom of the sea and until someone has had a look at it there doesn't seem much point in speculating.

As posted elsewhere, rumour has it that they decided to ditch as a result of the cockpit being full of "smoke" (either real smoke or hydraulic mist as 212 suggests) and not as a result of any significant control problems.

Other than that unfortunately I have no more information.

HC

[SASless]

Any word on why the aircraft sank? Float failure or something?

World of difference between atomized hydraulic fluid and "smoke"....the aroma of hot hydraulic fluid is pretty keen to most noses.

[helirider]

Whilst the ditching was successful, the helicopter overturned immediately in the rough sea but initially remained afloat. The crew of 2 and 7 of the 8 pax escaped from the aircraft and were subsequently rescued by standby vessels. Sadly, one of the pax did not escape and his body was later recovered from the passenger cabin by divers.
The Malaysian Dept of Civil Aviation has commenced its investigation, and efforts are underway to recover the helicopter, which is lying in approx 28 metres of water.
Early indications are that the helicopter suffered a LH Hydraulic failure as a result of which the crew elected to recover to land at Bintulu. However, soon after initiating the turn back, thick white smoke entered the cabin. It is reported that within seconds this was immediately followed by black smoke that rapidly filled the cabin and cockpit, making continued flight impossible. The crew carried out a power-on ditching.
In addition, a Service Letter (N°:1823-67-07) was published yesterday by Eurocopter. Here is an abstract:
"Following a lightning strike on the main rotor of an AS332 L2 helicopter in flight, the LH hydraulic power supply was lost.
As a precautionary measure, the three main rotor servo-controls were examined.
The examination revealed that:
• One servo-control had a significant leak from the outer seal, which led to the loss of the hydraulic fluid from one
of the two hydraulic systems.
• The other two servo-controls had a small leak between the upper and lower cylinder.
• One of the end-fittings on each of the three servo-controls had electric arcing marks on the ball joint.
The examination of these servo-controls revealed electric arcing marks on at least one of the end-fittings of the servo-controls that were struck by lightning."

[coalface]

I refer to helirider's last post which infers that the service letter relates to the MHS event. This is not the case. The service letter was issued following a North Sea lightning strike which caused damage to a main rotor servo which in turn caused a loss of hydraulic fluid over a period of time. This aircraft continued to a safe landing at its maintenance base.

[Super 61]

Sasless, the aircraft sank during the tow to Bintulu. It was towed by a supply boat while it was still in the inverted position (a/c not boat !) One of the floats started to lose air and it sank quite soon after that. Its in about 30m of water and it sounds like it will be on shore for examination shortly. The recent helicopter approach limits imposed by the Malaysian DCA are as a result of the previous (L2) incident off Kerteh. The aircraft floated for 2 days after it ditched and rolled, in heavy seas. There isn't a crane in the area that is available to lift the airframe, hence the tow to shore.

[Super 61]

.... also, I forgot to add to he1aviator's comments, the quote in the Borneo Post that the "Shell Rescue S92 flew to the scene and dropped a rescue dinghy" is not 100% accurate. We are yet to develop in flight dinghy dropping procedures. Ignore the Malaysian press.

[helirider]

"I refer to helirider's last post which infers that the service letter relates to the MHS event. This is not the case. The service letter was issued following a North Sea lightning strike "

Thank you for the information. :ooh:

[SASless]

Perhaps this is another case where "above CG floats" could have prevented a fatality.

[HeliComparator]

There is now an alert telex from EC citing the cause as a LH hydraulic fluid leak from a failed union nut associated with the optional emergency hydro-electric generator, resulting in loss of fluid and a fire in the MGB area.
HC

[tyriega]

do you have a copy or web address for EC alert telex?
thanks

[NorthSeaTiger]

Basically it is concerned with a pipe that runs from the hydraulic generator across the deck to the r/h side and has a module block half way along the pipe run (one of the unions on this failed).Detailed visual inspection required on unions. Although I don't think all L2's Have this module block can anyone confirm ?

[Wizzard]

NST wrote:"Although I don't think all L2's Have this module block can anyone confirm ?"


Correct:ok:


Wiz

[HeliComparator]

I am told by an unofficial but nonetheless well informed source that only 3 aircraft worldwide have this fitting, one of which was the accident aircraft, leaving only 2 others in circulation.
HC

[NorthSeaTiger]

So what does this fitting actually do ? Other aircraft with the emergency hyd generator do not have it, mereley a pipe running across the deck.

[Forcelink]

The Eurocopter Information Telex reads something like this:

SUBJECT: HYDRAULIC POWER
Ditching in China Sea on 30/01/07
Dear customer,
With Information Telex nr TFS 357 dated 02/02/2007 EUROCOPTER has informed of a controlled ditching of a 332 L2 in the China Sea.
The first investigations done after aircraft recovery show evidence of left hand side hydraulic circuit loss associated with the presence of a fire in the MGB compartment before ditching.
Upon the observations done as of today during the detailed examination of the left and right hydraulic circuits a significant fact is the rupture of the nut (See Illustration) of the pipe reference 332A75-2015-10 (IPC 24-23-01 fig 01 item 480) on the side of the union assy (item 430).
The concerned aircraft are the AS 332 L2 equipped with optional Emergency hydro-electric System. Upon these aircraft only some of them are equipped with this pipe and union assy.
Pending for the investigations conclusions and in particular for the laboratory inspection of the failed nut, EUROCOPTER recommends to perform a detailed inspection of this union and of the two associated pipes (no degradation, no distortion, no hydraulic fluid seepage ….).
TELEX INFO – EUROCOPTER – TELEX INFO – EUROCOPTER – TELEX INFO – EUROCOPTER
T.F.S. N° 00000364 dated February 13, 2007
EUROCOPTER – MARIGNANE – TLX 42506F
Page 2 of2
TELEX INFO – EUROCOPTER – TELEX INFO – EUROCOPTER – TELEX INFO - EUROCOPTER

Sorry, could not manage to import the image, fairly new to all this.

[Sensible Garage]

reported to be 9M-BEM, an AS332L1, can somebody confrim?

[HeliComparator]

No, it was definitely an L2 - even Eurocopter think so!

HC