UK military pay rise 2007

[Biggus]

Well, the annual pay rise is normally announced in the next 2 weeks or so. The value of RPI is currently running at 4.4%.

Any rumours (this is a rumour network) about the likely pay rise this year?

[mindbender]

4.4% or more would be good but don't the sneaky b:mad: ds now use the CPI as a measure of inflation, currently around 3% ?

[L J R]

Didn't everyone else only get 2.5% recently - Do You really expect your Govt will give you MORE than this?


...How much will some of the 'Give-Me-Backs' rise by (Families Quarters for example!)......bet they are not the same as the pay 'rise'.

[mbga9pgf]

Well, the annual pay rise is normally announced in the next 2 weeks or so. The value of RPI is currently running at 4.4%.
Any rumours (this is a rumour network) about the likely pay rise this year?

Not heard rumours, but know civil service can expect 3% (hence magical 3% max figure for the BOE before the Govenor starts writing letters to the Chancellor). Personally, cannot imagine more than 3% for the overstreched armed forces with this shambolic shower of :mad: in power.

[Jimlad1]

"Not heard rumours, but know civil service can expect 3%"

Most CS have got in the region of 2 - 2.5%. The MOD has still not implemented the Aug 06 payrise (negotiations ongoing) but this is likely to be only 2.5% progression, based on payscales drawn up 5 years ago.

I'd suggest 3 - 3.5% if lucky.

[blogger]

Normally the pay rise has been released by now. However seening that Jan's inflation rate is a bit high I guess those in power are waiting to see if Feb's rate is a bit lower then they can justify giving us less.

Watch this space I would think that we might get a few quid more but in 2 stages like we got years ago. Half in April half in September.

Don't really care anyhow I 've had enough and have banged in the PVR to get out 5 years early .....days to do getting few.

Rot in hell Blair.

[Doctor Cruces]

I remember one year, way back when, that I was actually 50p a week WORSE off after they put up the MQ rent by more than my payrise was.

Word went round the patch that wives were NOT to talk to the press!!

:ugh:

Doc C

[Melchett01]

However seening that Jan's inflation rate is a bit high I guess those in power are waiting to see if Feb's rate is a bit lower then they can justify giving us less

Unfortunately the inflation rate won't work like that as far as Gordon is concerned. Higher inflation rates mean that he is more likely to try and cap any public sector rises to keep inflation under control rather than allowing a pay rise that actually means something.

Anyway, which of this week's made up inflation figures are you talking about? If we're lucky it will be in the region of 3%, but my money is on it being abotu 2.75%.

Thanks for nothing Tony.

[BleepBleep]

I remember one year, way back when, that I was actually 50p a week WORSE off after they put up the MQ rent by more than my payrise was.

Word went round the patch that wives were NOT to talk to the press!!

:ugh:

Doc C

I remember in the not so distant past, that my pay reduced by a lot more than 50p a week, due to the changes to NI, as well as the usual claw-back increases in quartering charge.

I'm not expecting any fantastic rise this year either - unless you are talking about the deduction rates on the right-hand side of the new improved, even more difficult to understand pay-slip!! Yo JPA!!

[Clockwork Mouse]

Armed Forces pensions are going up by 2.6%, based on the inflation rate at September 2006. Don't expect those still serving will get much more. Sorry guys!

[BEagle]

The level of pay rises has, due to the processes involved, always been many months behind the actual RPI.

2.6% increase for retirees doesn't seem unexpected. Great - another £39 per month.

[dallas]

Didn't Brown 'urge [pay award] restraint' just a few days ago to keep inflation from running away? He's hardly going to give the same military he thinks are a waste of money an award that's contrary to 'restraint' is he? I would guess it'll match BEagle's pension rise by about 2.5% ish - maybe as high as 3% because of public pressure - whereupon he can claim 'our much admired forces will receive a pay rise above the public sector award of 2% to reflect the increased pressure upon them and the difficult job they are doing. This will also address recruitment and retention issues.' - all these quotes just come from the Bumper Book of Spin, the reader just has to be careful not to accidentally read a random condolence message, which also feature on the Forces page.

In the small print, charges will rise upwards of 7% to keep a lid on inflation, producing a return on defence investment, while still representing value for money for our brave servicemen.

[wobble2plank]

Guy's, guy's, guys, c'mon wheres your patriotism???? Someone has to fund the politicians desperate need for a 60% pay rise. Money doesn't grow on trees you know so how can a Government of the people pay itself vast sums of cash in pay, allowances and pensions if we don't all do our bit with a stiff upper lip!

Besides, cuts down on the number of ex-mil types who have only operated a desk being able to afford peerages! (:= )

Hope the pay rise is decent, my pensions not indexed linked yet :(

[Bladdered]

I thought that retired pay was based on the September RPI figure? (ex mortgage payments etc) - last year it was 3.6% not 2.6% - see link. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/Rp04.pdf

[mbga9pgf]

Guy's, guy's, guys, c'mon wheres your patriotism???? Someone has to fund the politicians desperate need for a 60% pay rise. Money doesn't grow on trees you know so how can a Government of the people pay itself vast sums of cash in pay, allowances and pensions if we don't all do our bit with a stiff upper lip!
Besides, cuts down on the number of ex-mil types who have only operated a desk being able to afford peerages! (:= )
Hope the pay rise is decent, my pensions not indexed linked yet :(
not a chance.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/aa7f8f7c-af3d-11db-a446-0000779e2340.html
Says it all really. I get a funny feeling the wheels are coming of GB's miracle economy..... I suppose it depends on whether you believe inflation will fall while interest rates stay on hold :hmm:

[Letsby Avenue]

The Brown Terror hasn't even started yet. Just wait till the MP for Cowdenbeath and Kirkaldy gets his hands on some 'real' power. :uhoh:

[brakedwell]

The level of pay rises has, due to the processes involved, always been many months behind the actual RPI.
2.6% increase for retirees doesn't seem unexpected. Great - another £39 per month.
About the same as the increase in Council Tax!

[wobble2plank]

Can't keep his 'miracle economy' on the rails for much longer .....
All the pension pots are bare..... except for theirs of course :mad:

(My council tax rise is >£200 this year, bless 'em and I still got bo**cked for putting a twig in my bin!)

[Strictly Jungly]

The Brown Terror hasn't even started yet. Just wait till the MP for Cowdenbeath and Kirkaldy gets his hands on some 'real' power. :uhoh:

IF Brown does become head honcho of Noo Labour ,then I will bare one of my appendages in Burtons Window IF they retain power in the next General Election.

Surely all of those pinheads who voted Tony and his feckwits in will have finally seen the light.................. even on their immigration policy alone they should all be burnt at the stake, let alone their financial mismanagement!

John Reid? A negative King Midas effect on everything he is involved with!

Prescott? A class conscious feckwit who should have been arrested years ago!

Dont get me started on the "Witches of Eastwick" (ie any female Labour MP)........ Rant over.

Pay rise................in my deluded world.............nothing less than 6% will be acceptable ( I can dream can't I?)

[The Gorilla]

Bladdered you are correct, Beagles figure is innacurate. The Sep RPI figure is that used for Government Departments to fix annual increases to State benefits, pensions etc.
TG

[BEagle]

'twas not my figure, I'll have you know.

So say sorry :* !

Anway, a 3.6% pension increase would give me an extra £69.19 per month gross - before Gay Gordon gets his cut, of course....:mad:

[The Gorilla]

Being The Gorilla means never having to say sorry!!
Sorry it's not something I ever do!
:O

[BEagle]

:hmm:

You ought to be a CRM instructor........:eek:

[brakedwell]

:hmm:
You ought to be a CRM instructor........:eek:
I think he is!! :E

[BRASSEMUP]

Normally the pay rise has been released by now. However seening that Jan's inflation rate is a bit high I guess those in power are waiting to see if Feb's rate is a bit lower then they can justify giving us less.

Watch this space I would think that we might get a few quid more but in 2 stages like we got years ago. Half in April half in September.

Don't really care anyhow I 've had enough and have banged in the PVR to get out 5 years early .....days to do getting few.

Rot in hell Blair.

Here! Here! I wished i'd bugger'd off 5 years ago! luckly less than a year to go.... Funny thou every body i seem to talk too is off. Is there going to be a shortage of rotary blokes. Or is somebody juggling the figures???:oh:

[Faithless]

I dont care about any pay rise....I do all this for the sheer love of the job!:} ...."Please Mr nice man can I take this straight jacket off now":\

[mbga9pgf]

Here! Here! I wished i'd bugger'd off 5 years ago! luckly less than a year to go.... Funny thou every body i seem to talk too is off. Is there going to be a shortage of rotary blokes. Or is somebody juggling the figures???:oh:


Will the last man please remember to turn off the light...:hmm:

There is going to be major shortages EVERYWHERE in the forces in the very near future unless Sir Jock gets a grip of this government.

[BRASSEMUP]

Amen brother! Vote with your feet before that idiot Brown gets in!:ugh:

[mbga9pgf]

Amen brother! Vote with your feet before that idiot Brown gets in!:ugh:


No, I want to stay in whilst that smug Sh*t from north of the border has to sit in as PM whilst the whole sorry mess that this government have created colapses round their ears... It aint going to be pretty....

Besides, I have a feeling that the Jock will get cold feet when presented with the option of pulling out of Iraq and saving him some loot to waste on some public sector nonsense as opposed to facing future war-crimes charges or ending up with a legacy like senior blair...

While he may be a very bad thing as a whole for the armed forces, I am certainly hoping he will be a very good thing for spending more time at home...

[abbotyobs]

Why has this thread quietened down, I would have thought with everybody working so hard and in such difficult spots that a higher than inflation pay rise expectation would be a hot topic, especially since other measures such as the operational tax free bonus is such a small amount compared to what other countries receive and our salaries now are barely comparable to basic civilian professions.

[Clear Right,Px Good!]

Maybe the thread has quietened down for a very good reason, that reason being that those still in the military are too busy doing the jobs left behind by the defence cuts and the "leaning process".

Dont forget, with all the downsizing that has occured in recent years, it seems that the work load has not just stayed the same, but in some cases increased with continued and expanded overseas commitments.

If any pay award were to be realistic, then it would be 9%, the increase attributable to three persons, whose jobs are now done by one.

Dont expect this to happen of course, one can but only dream, I for one shant be voting Labour again, I will be once again stuck , trying to choose betwwen the lesser of all evils, in a vain attempt to get it right for once.

[Klingon]

If my pension isn't raised in line with inflation I'm going to have to PVR and find a job.:}

[Pontius Navigator]

The civil service pay rise is 2.5% this year (Aug 06) and 2.5% (Aug 07).

The announcement makes the RAF pay rates look a model of simplicity and clarity.

[ethereal entity]

Gents,

It is readily apparent to the vast majority of the Armed Forces that Brown hates us. He lied about the last defence review when he said it was driven 'by the need for effective armed forces', then told the treasury he could 'give them half a billion back' before the review had started. He should have be taken out into the street, and laid bare whilst forced to tell the truth about how much he hates spending a single penny on the armed forces and how much he begrudges every pound that goes on defence and not on vote winning projects in labour constituencies. Blair and Brown are driving the armed forces like 16 year old joyriders drive a stolen car - they are oblivious to the pain and suffering they cause, as long as they gain some satisfaction, and impress their mates. Personally, I think that if Tony Blair were to be tried for crimes against the British people, he would be unanimously found guilty, and should be treated as we have traditionally treated traitors, for make no mistake, that is what he is.

As far as a pay award goes - forget anything remotely fair. This is what SHOULD happen:

1. An average squaddie goes to war, fights for his country, and risks getting killed. FACT.

2. A brand new, shiny, police officer serves their country, and risks life and limb. FACT. They also go home most nights and don't spend months away.

3. Firemen - see point 2

NEW POLICE AND FIREMEN GET PAID ALMOST 50% MORE THAN SQUADDIES.

IS THIS FAIR???!!!

More to the point, Brown, (the most dangerous man in the world if you are British - make no mistake) - is it fair? - you MUST say that it IS, because you created this situation!

So, Gordon - answer me now or later, but the truth will out - it always does. Even if I have to march into parliament in my uniform and confront you face to face (Did you even know we (military officers) have a right to do that - well I've checked, and we do) - Look forward to seeing you soon - I will be armed with the facts and the truth, and I strongly suspect that I will tear you apart. Traitor.:=

A fair pay rise is 50% for the lowest ranks, 5% for the highest, and an incremental rise in between. If you are worth even a 40% pay rise (you're not - you are a leech on the British psyche), then you havre to admit that the armed forces are worth more than you - they work harder, longer, and for others, not for their own gain - who could say that about you - only you, I suspect.

I hate you

[Vage Rot]

[quote]/ 4.4% or more would be good but don't the sneaky b ds now use the CPI as a measure of inflation, currently around 3% ? /[quote]
When CPI was introduced, didn't Gay, Gobby, Grabbing Gordon say that CPI was only being used as a tool for accurate measure of underlying inflation but that RPI would still be used to calaculate Pay/pension rises etc?
Or is this another Tony's Tw4ts blatent lies?:=

[ProfessionalStudent]

:D Well said me old china plate. I haven't seen so much bile or vitriol in a post for some time.

And I have to agree.

And I'll be watching the BBC News on the day you march into Parliament too. In fact, would you need a lift?

[mbga9pgf]

And herein lies Liarbour's problem; they promise the earth, then after they have spent all OUR cash frivilously (and claiming to have created a stable economy, whilst spending all the cash durning the boom times instead of saving in case it all goes a little Pete Tong) they get ruled out of power for eons until a new generation comes along that doesnt remember the bad times of the last old lot.
Stable economy mister brown? Well Want to account for the following?
http://www.in2perspective.com/nr/2006/08/uk-bankruptcies-hit-record-high.jsp
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2002107,00.html
http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=savingAndLoansNews&storyID=2007-01-30T071950Z_01_NOA026363_RTRUKOC_0_ECONOMY-INFLATION.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PI5XXO3EMCOE5QFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/21/nrbrown21.xml
Oh, thats right, the stable economy thats built on
This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_money_supply
its all going here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/25/cndavoswecon125.xml
and the reason why we have such "stable"growth at the moment... they are printing more cash. Tonnes of the stuff. Thats what M4 is. And guess what that does to your savings and your pay? Thats right, inflation devalues it quicker than you can say lickety Split. Brown is going to achieve is utopian Socialist dream by inflating us out of our wealth. Thankfully, we get a say on the matter at the next election. Simple truth is, there is no such thing about a miracle economy. We will have to pay back all the national debt (including the PFIs you forgot to add to the total, which almost doubles it) at some stage.
I will even tell you how it will all end.....


"If the Fed wants to inject liquidity (credit) into the system they simply call up large broker dealers and buy some of their bonds with credit they create out of thin air ... The dealer then passes this credit on to 'the market' by making loans to mortgage companies ... or whatever ... Because each layer of lender is only required to keep marginal capital on hand, a $1bn repo done by the Fed eventually creates as much as $100bn in new credit to the consumer ... This situation is very unstable in the long run. The Federal Reserve's balance sheet this year alone has expanded by $30bn in this way, and created $3.5trillion of new credit" (for which read debt) "in the US."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/92f7ee6a-a765-11db-83e4-0000779e2340.html

to give you an idea, in 1929 (great depression) the GDP debt ratio was 2.9.....

today it is 3.6.

Im packing up and moving to New Zealand. :hmm:

[Melchett01]

ethereal entity,

I don't think I've such vitriol or splean venting since, well since Gordon was asked to pay for a war on 2 fronts.

Agree with every word you said - bravo, I salute you sir. Wish the press would print it.

Shame you're talking about people without conscience - they couldn't care less what you think.

[vecvechookattack]

ethereal entity..Whilst I agree with your post wholeheartedly you need to be careful when comparing the average Squaddie to your average Policeman and lazy, loafing fireman.

Its not entirely true to state that An average squaddie goes to war, fights for his country, and risks getting killed. FACT.


On Occasion they may do but at the last count there were close 175,000 servicemen serving Queen and Country but just under 6,000 in Afg and just over 7000 in the sand......leaving well over 150,000 not getting shot at.
Agreed, there are other Operations around the world where Jack,Percy and the Light Blue boys are placing themselves in harms way.


Whilst I am here, can anyone remember what percentage pay rise we received in 1979 when Mrs Thatcher took over. I remember my pay packet rocketed over night but in those far off days I was a baby Lt and didn't get paid that much anyway. Any one recall the actual figure?

[HEDP]

And how many police and firemen are deployed overseas on ops? What is their percentage of personnel deployed?

[mbga9pgf]

Makes you sick....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6314301.stm

So this is where all our money being pumped into the NHS is going...

[Strictly Jungly]

1979.

I can't remember the actual figure but it brought about the ending of the fortnightly pay parade as some would have needed a wheelbarrow to take their pay home!

Those were the days!
At least Saint Maggie had balls!!!!

[Fitbin]

Speaking of firemen, how come most of them do a few days work, then get a few more off to go and do secondary jobs.
Next time they have a strike, we'll probably have to cover for them whilst they moan about their pay rise (which'll be way bigger than ours).
Now here's a thought. We cover their jobs, so how about they get a crash course in weapon handling and get out to sunnier places and cover our taskings. Seven days a week, mega long hours, and for far less pay.

Only an idea........:}

[teeteringhead]

And have you looked at the figures for "attributable death in service" for police and fire versus the military?

IIRC it's 3 x salary for the mil and 5 x (a bigger) salary for police and fire.....

[mutleyfour]

Personally I am beyond caring for our pay rise, I have become accustomed to the measly amounts year upon year as well as the destruction of all of our perks such as cheap housing and pensions.

I would however have kittens if I could see a uniformed Officer march into Parliament to confront Gordon the Gopher!

Please please if their is a god, make it so!

[BleepBleep]

Mutley,

I wonder if I can persuade my office-mate to give it a try - he has his No 1's hung up in our office and it's only a short stroll down Whitehall!!!! He doesn't have anything else to worry about as he's another one who's had enough and is out later this year. Now, what do I have to do to get a Scotsman to start drinking heavily by mid morning, before he clears off out of town at lunchtime and on the day before the Calcutta Cup?!!!!

If a few more were to do it it would certainly be more of a sight than the pathetic PCS demo this week.

Back to the main thread - I wonder how they will spin the measly offer once they have summoned up the guts to announce it?!!

I await it without baited-breath!

[brit bus driver]

Now, what do I have to do to get a Scotsman to start drinking heavily by mid morning

Not a lot usually!! Though tomorrow he'll be drowning his sorrows.......











...you just know that's going to come back and bite me in the arrse!

[BleepBleep]

That's what I thought last year!! Thought it would be a good idea to invite a couple of Aussie course-mates over to watch the game - on the understanding that any support for the dark-shirts would be met with a large boot in the beam end and a rapid ejection through the living-room window swifter than a Frenchman reaching for a contract in Baghdad!!!! The only way I could get then to shut-up after the game was to keep pouring real beer down their throat!!

We will see what happens when the whistle blows to start at 1530 tomorrow!!!

[ThemightyV]

If my memory serves me right, when Maggie got in the big chair we got a 35% pay rise (1979) followed by 15% either in 1980 or 1981 as it was widely recognised that we were poorly paid to say the least. I do remember a colleague saying that Labour had actually promised the 35% and it just happened to fall on the Conservatives to carry it through. I fully expect Bungle Brown to be giving that oh so false smile whilst spinning the yarn that 3% or thereabouts is a huge thank you for all our efforts etc. The man is a cretin of the highest order and would truly deserve his punishment 19th century style for his treachery. Apologies for a minor rant on my first post.

[White Noise]

Well i am sure as hell expecting it to be no more than 3% from penny pinching Brown but have made up my mind to finish at my 22 as what ever they offer will be poor. having spoken with many other collegues based around the UK/ sandy areas most are looking to get out at the earliest and most beneficial opportunity. So i would hedge my bets that in around 5 years time they are gonna be in a stew ! :D

[WINGMONG]

Most of my collegues are leaving in the next 3 years. The RAF is on its arse! Getting worse and not much hope.

[Melchett01]

Just flicking through the last AFPRB report in anticipation of this year's award - if that is the right word - noticed this:

In its affordability evidence, MOD reminded us that financial pressures continued despiteadditional resources of £3.7 billion having been allocated to MOD under the 2004 Spending Review through to 2007-08. These pressures came from a variety of sources including: the additional costs of military pay and allowances; from pension and compensation scheme costs; high fuel prices; investment in maintenance of nuclear warheads; and enhancements to reflect recent operational experience.

So there you have it, if you want a worthwhile pay rise, stop asking for more kit in theatre, walk everywhere and don't expect a decent pension.
I don't suppose that the armed forces pension arrangements and how they fund things help matters. Rather than investing and letting the stock market take the strain and provide a steady stream of capital growth and or income to fund a known liability, the govt has chosen to leave the armed forces pensions scheme unfunded. In a nutshell, it is an ongoing and ever increasing liability that they must pay for each year out of their budget.

Seems a bit barking to me, and a lot more expensive than employing a fund manager to ensure that what cash they do have works hard for them. So there you have it - blame it on the pensions if we don't get a decent pay rise - the MOD will!

Ed:
Just seen this on the IOT Pay thread:

i get paid more than a 4 year air commodore not bad seeing as though I only came out as a corporal (in 1989)

Far from unusual given the state of our pay. A friend of mine left her non-commissioned job in the army, and over the course of a number of years managed to make leaving look like the best decision ever. Now, at about the time she would be looking at getting to her 22 point, the military equivalent of her civi salary would be decided by the Senior Salaries Review Board putting her up with the 2-3* pay band.

With options like that in civi street, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the AFPRB are on a hiding to nothing unless it does something pretty drastic and pretty soon.

[airborne_artist]

I do remember a colleague saying that Labour had actually promised the 35% and it just happened to fall on the Conservatives to carry it through.

AFPRB had found we needed 35% to get back in line. Mrs T in opposition promised (and once elected, delivered it) in one tranche. Calaghan had offered to pay it over two years (which they'd done several times before). Not many service people (or their Mums, Dads etc) voted Labour in 79....

[Pontius Navigator]

Before the AFPRB, about 1970-71, pay was set by the Grigg Committee. Invariably it was sold as 7% - 4% this year and 3% next. Any fool could see the error in the maths (GCE days of course).

With the advent of AFPRB, and the rampant inflation under Ted Heath when we had monthly pay rises as well, we got the annual pay round. All Calaghan tried to do was revert to the Grigg formula of a fixed price deal in the hope that inflation would rise but we would be in a wage increase fix.

The civil service secured a 5-year fix (just ended) under the grumpy jock which was really a bet on inflation. I think it just about worked out OK. The GJ got his own back this time with a 2.5% deal. Not enough to buy a pint even.

[jpa-in]

Some info for ya....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6355979.stm

[FFP]

When does the payrise get announced ?

[jpa-in]

Not too sure if it's CPI or RPI based but either way I'm sure we'll get something around the lower of the two ......not bad considering my council tax has gone up 5% this year....one step forward ...two back...

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

I wonder what wonderful 'spin' they will put on it when its finally released.

[ethereal entity]

The pay award is likely to be derisory - and if it is, we will get on our soapboxes and start to call from the rooftops. Productive?...not really.
So I suppose the question must be: Are you tired of moaning, and are you prepared to do something about it?
I think I am.
If I (RAF Pilot with 16 yrs (and a little bit) experience, walked in front of cameras and stated intention to run for Office, what would you all think?
Premise would be slightly right wing ie:
Problem: Not enough prison cells.
Answer: Build 20 More 2000 room prisons and use NHS Money to fund it (the money from 5 days NHS funding would pay for this - Audit 2004).
NHS - If it was a dog, it would have been put down by now - I would abolish it and start from scratch with a joint insurance/benefit system (ala USA - they have their faults but the Health system is MUCH better than ours).
Immigration: STOPPED as of now. TFN. Any other plan is too difficult to implement (at the moment).
Road Pricing - NO. If people need to drive, then they need to drive, and Bliar and his liar mates know this - it is a scheme to raise money. Better a sales tax on cars that is related to consumption (more to follow but I've thought about it, and it makes sense)
Trial and criminal proceedings against those who have brought this country to it's knees, willingly and with no regard for the countless millions of decent British people (of all ethnic origins, before anyone calls me a racist..I'm not). I'm talking about Blair, Brown,Blunkett, Jowell, Straw and a few others (Not Prescott..he is simply far too thick to be guilty of anything - it isn't nice to pick on stupid people).
I'm not just spitballing here - I'm semi-serious - I am considering doing the decent thing and having a go at saving my country, starting with a march into parliament to confront the Liar who is 'in charge'
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Cheers
EE

[Yeller_Gait]

Prospective parliamentary MP for Lincoln? You get my vote now

Y_G

[The Gorilla]

Ethereal

Couldn't agree with you more, perhaps we should all start a new party, one called say the peoples party. Founded by the people for the people!
Trouble with the big 3 today is that there is no choice whatsoever!
:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

The Peoples Party will:
concentrate on the development of small special forces units designed to undertake continuous operations against terrorists or states that sponsor terrorism. Such forces will be superbly equipped and will undertake largely covert operations against threats and potential threats
create a unified defence force with the primary objective to operate in the UK to protect against terrorist threats and large scale organised criminal activity. It would also be ready to mitigate the consequences of a successful terrorist attack. Components of the force would also be deployed abroad to contribute to peace keeping and peace making undertakings

ensure that sufficient funding is allocated to civil defence equipment, in particular the provision of respirators, protective suits, vaccines and medicines

So thats it then. We will have penty of AGR's.....tons of tin hats and rubber gloves...a shed load of combi pens....



Hmmmm....Don't think they understand do they?

[22/7 Master]

A couple of extra policies though.

Hard work must pay, not pay for others. Reduce the burden on the state by increasing personal/family responsibility. Cut down those dependent on benefits and let them keep the money they earn by lowering tax.

Simplify the whole tax system including removing NI and including within Income Tax. Introduce a 50% rate of income tax on all income over 5 x times average earnings (£100,000) at present.

Apply the principals of prudence to the NHS, Police, Local Government etc - why do we see Mercedes and Volvo police cars - because their budgets are too big. Link increases in local government spending to no more than RPi (increase in earnings).

Taper the Dole - long term recipients loose proportion of cash with time - the only way to reduce the culture of dependency which generations of the same families have fallen into.

Answer the West Lothian Question once and for all and apply equal funding to all regions.

Agree with immigration - zeroise and start again. Implement a 'points based' system as per Canada and Australia - bring in the skills we need.

Insist on re-vamp of CAP, or pull out of Europe in toto. The model simply does not fit our economy. Income tax could fall by 18p in the pound if we were to pull out.

I suggest the 'Common Sense' Party.

[mutleyfour]

Once again, i nearly spill my coffee in the mad panic to open this thread and once again I wish I hadn't! :ugh: :rolleyes: :bored:

[London Mil]

Would it be possible to reopen the old one way Australia trip? If so, the Burberry wearing Chav Brigade get my vote. :ok:

[Melchett01]

Would it be possible to reopen the old one way Australia trip? If so, the Burberry wearing Chav Brigade get my vote

Oh I don't know LM, let's not be too hasty to get rid of our burberry wearing bretheren - they do have their uses. After all, now that fox hunting has been banned ..... Admittedly, they aren't as challenging to catch as the foxes and they do whine a bit more, but beggars can't be choosers!

[LFFC]

Mutleyfour

I'm just trying to get you to spill your coffee again! :p

In a board moment, I just had a look at when past AFPRB reports were published:

8 Feb 96
6 Feb 97
29 Jan 98
1 Feb 99
15 Feb 00
9 Feb 01
29 Jan 02
8 Feb 03
23 Feb 04
22 Feb 05
16 Feb 06

So, historically it should have been published by now, but recent years suggest that it will be out next week. It will be interesting to see exactly when. Rumour has it that the much touted FRI for pilots has been canned. In any event, I hope they allow enough time for JPA to reprogramme their computers - they don't seem to be able to cope with change very well at the moment.

[Aeronut]

Excellent research LFFC.
Were you really board or just bored :E
Now this is bored:


You have inspired me to look more closely at your data:


When considered as day of the year - eg 1st Feb = 32nd day of the year
it has a reasonable fit to a lognormal distribution (base e) with a mean value of day 39.5935 (~9 Feb)
standard error 2.48759 days

This gives lower 95% confidence interval of day 35.0061 (4 th Feb) and the more interesting upper confidence interval of day 44.7820 (~14th Feb)

I then looked at trend to establish if the producers of the report are becoming tardy:

A linear model Fitted Trend Equation gives
Yt = 30.8545 + 1.6*t

positive gradient suggests that yes tardiness is possibly present and that for 2007 day 50 is most likely (19 Feb).

So my prediction is Monday.

Damn - I was having so much fun - the bar is now open!!

[L J R]

Aeronut, so how was the maths pre-read for ETPS or GD Aerosystems - Productive and beneficial I hope. Otherwise - You need to get out more. Are you still a Virgin?

[PlasticCabDriver]

Rumour has it that the much touted FRI for pilots has been canned.

I have just been offered it.

[FFP]

Really ?!?!? Please do tell all.....:eek:

[Junglie]

22/7,
50% tax for those earning over £100000 why the £**$ should those that have the nouse to earn a reasonable amount of money be penalised for it?

It's funny really cos you won't affect the really rich, you don't think for a second they pay anything like the percentage tax that you do, do you? All you do is trap people in the middle bracket and destroy people's motivation to succeed financially, i'd say that was pretty left wing wouldn't you doughnut??:ugh:

Let's hope you don't go anywhere near any real power eh !!

[PRO NCA]

Oh people, you know that Tony and Gordon love us, so our pay rise is bound to be in line with those in power. Just like the MP,s expenses

[Melchett01]

Oh people, you know that Tony and Gordon love us, so our pay rise is bound to be in line with those in power. Just like the MP,s expenses

Yes, I'd love to see that. IIRC, weren't MPs asking for something like a 66% pay rise to take them up to £100k at the back end of last year? Apparently to take them into line with people like doctors - the fact that doctors actually EARN their £100k seemed to have escaped most politicians. From what I can gather £60k + huge pension + "services" of a secretary seems more than enough for an bunch of unqualified liars.

Can you imagine the outcry amongst those very same politicians if the armed forces asked for the same??? Looking on the bright side, if we did, the cardiac arrests and apoplectic-rage induced strokes might just send a few of them to an early and well deserved retirement ...... about the only thing they have earned :*

[buoy15]

Understand it's in line with MP's - about 60%? - not sure though!
Also, your final salary pension will not be subject to the higher rate of tax to keep it on 'Par' with the PM and his Quislings
Must go now to take my medication

[formertonkaplum]

Monday and still Silence from the Ministry.

It must be so particularly poor this year (oh... then again it is still :mad: Labour so no shock there then!!), that they are waiting for a busy news day to slide it through with.

Bless them elected servants who represent us (allegedly), lets hope they get ANOTHER big pay rise. After all, they do work so hard !!:D

[LFFC]

A Gathering Storm (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2b87d326-bdf4-11db-bd86-0000779e2340.html)

When the UN Security Council’s 60-day deadline for Iran to suspend its nuclear activities expires on Wednesday, one man could still hold the key to a negotiated deal: Ali Larijani, Iran’s top security official and the country’s chief nuclear negotiator. But hopes are faint.

I guess Wednesday will be the day then!

[formertonkaplum]

No way. That kind of story could possibly make us look worthwhile politically and there may even be outcry at our shabby treatment by the current tenants of Downing Street.

Watch out for an NHS type decoy......:ugh:

[Confucius]

I hope they allow enough time for JPA to reprogramme their computers - they don't seem to be able to cope with change very well at the moment.

Maybe whoever inputs the % pay rise will forget to put a decimal point between the 2 and the 5.

More likely they'll put it before both though :rolleyes:

[Fast but Safe]

Guys guys guys, not to worry, all will smell of roses very soon.

How do I know this you may ask?

John Prescott's office (note not a department any longer!) is getting a well deserved budget increase of £587,000 from £1,960,000 to £2,547,000. This figure does not include wages, bonuses etc.... That's an increase of errmm, errmm......more than the rate of inflation! 30% actually!!

So we can all sit safe knowing we won't just get the usual inflation hovering %.

I must start to try to pull this permanent intravenous drip supplying me with something that makes me feel weird!!!

Or could it be something like this waiting around the corner?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6380033.stm


FbS

[BEagle]

How do you expect Bliar, Brown and Browne to fund their next Bush bum-licking war if they give the folks in the Armed Forces a pay rise?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Good Rumour, heard today..... a whacking 'about to start another war somewhere else' pucker 4.4%

That's rumours for you........ just what they are.

Advo

[LFFC]

Now, I like that rumour! If it's true, then tomorrow may be just the day to announce it.

Iran defiant on nuclear programme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6378289.stm)

[vecvechookattack]

Thousands of Ministry of Defence managers and technical staff, angry over a pay deal, are to go on strike for the first time in 25 years

Did they do it ? Did I miss it?

[Safety_Helmut]

can't resist it:

How many civil servants work in the MoD ?..................











.....................













...................










Just under half of them !



still makes me laugh.



S_H

[unclenelli]

vecvechookattack Quote:
Did they do it ? Did I miss it?

Gotta wait til 28th Feb mate - that's the date that "Prospect" union have decided on for the strike.

[Kitbag]

From samuraimatt:

Our members feel that the offer is an insult to loyal, dedicated staff, who have been working hard to maintain and improve support to the front line while facing massive changes in the size and shape of the MoD civil service."

Maybe that should read;

"Our Soldiers, Airmen and Sailors feel that the offer is an insult to loyal, dedicated staff, who have been working hard to maintain and improve Iraq and Afghanistan while facing massive changes in the size and shape of the Armed Forces coupled with chronic underfunding and being treated as second class citizens.."

I wholly agree with your sentiment, but feel a tad jealous and very aggreived that the TU at least have someone speaking up for them in public, there seems to be one of those hauntingly familiar deafening silences from both CAS and the much vaunted BAFF

[mutleyfour]

Gotta wait til 28th Feb mate - that's the date that "Prospect" union have decided on for the strike

They are of course due back at work on the 29th! :}

[forcesdiscounted]

Believe it or not - there are some civilians who do a good job but I have to say they have also been treated apallingly.

What do you think would have been posted here if we had to wait until now for a pay rise we should have got in August. Especially is it was 2.5%.

Lets face it if you work in defence we all get shafted!!!

[Aeronut]

past AFPRB reports were published:

8 Feb 96
6 Feb 97
29 Jan 98
1 Feb 99
15 Feb 00
9 Feb 01
29 Jan 02
8 Feb 03
23 Feb 04
22 Feb 05
16 Feb 06



If it is not released today they have achieved a new high score in tardiness!!

[LFFC]

Or perhaps the Treasury are having some problems agreeing with the AFPRB's recommendations?

Either way, given the speed at which JPA works, I doubt if we'll see any pay rise on our April pay checks now! I bet that will go down well with the troops in the field!

[formertonkaplum]

It is odd that the news has not come forward yet as it has historically by now been announced.

With the amount of people "in the know" who use / read / post on this forum.... someone must be able to shed light on the lack of announcement?

Or even a strong rumour about the amount of increase?


Anyone else heard 13% ? And Retention incentives for Critical areas not just in the flying arena?

[South Bound]

Stop teasing

[SidHolding]

Are they expecting the RPI/CPI figures for Feb to be lower than Jan (3.7% and 2.4%.... I think), then announce it?!?

I heard a rumour that any pay rise will be awarded in 2 parts, April and Nov/Dec.

Sid.

[MLT]

I rang the Office of Manpower Economics on Tuesday (number is on their website under AFPRB) and they said that the report had been finished but had yet to be published (no kidding). I was told it would be published anytime within the next couple of weeks. So it does seem as though the Gov are taking their time in agreeing with the boards recommendation.

[jonesy1275]

An AVM from Innsworth visited Brize yesterday to listen to the gripes of the lower ranks. Obviously wages was mentioned and he said that it was his duty to sell the RAF to the AFPRB. The anouncement will be next week but don't expect anything spectacular with possibly only .1% higher than the inflation rate.
However, he did mention that next years pay rise will be a lot better.

[L J R]

So an AVM made a futile attempt to keep you guys in for a further year with what he (she) thinks is a retention one-liner. Then you PVR and have to wait a further year - 12 months to PVR if my research has it right. This shows how much the RAF's leadership is so stuck in last century.

What a frickking joke....

[Tiger_mate]

'Twas 1978 when the Service wives marched on our behalf down Downing Street. It is a sad reflection of appreciation if this is to happen again. Especially with so many lives in danger as I write and 49 already lost in Afghanistan; Fathers, Brothers, Sons etc, and they dont make headline news anymore.

However when the MOD employed civvies got a 2.5% offer, I cannot see the Govt offering HM Forces finest a dime more. The is a big differance between the serviceman of '78 and nowadays though, in that we are prepared to be far more publicly vocal, and fear the repercusions significantly less.

The Labour Govt of 75 as we all know destroyed the RAF beyond belief, and I cannot see Tony giving a toss in the coming months. Still private aviation will benefit from hiring back all the hardware that 'we no longer need'.

The Hawker Hunter came back into service after Typhoon, what the F is happening!!!!

[Biggus]

How can an AVM possibly say that next years pay rise will be a lot better?

Each year a totally separate AFPRB sits to decide the pay increae. There is often an upper cap set by the Treasury/Government policy of the day, based on economic conditions/inflation rate, etc. Who can predict in advance what the situation will be in a years time?

Perhaps the AVM is anticipating a significant increase in the 'X' factor, as I believe this is to be re-evaluated in 08.

Unless of course the AVM is trying to promise the troops 'jam tomorrow'. I'm sure that is not the case.....

[BleepBleep]

It doesn't matter whatever figure they finally announce I'll bet a pound to a pinch of s:mad: t that whatever charges we pay are increased by a lot more than the rate of the pay rise. :ugh:

As for the retention incentive comments, surely you don't expect that sort of thing just after a 15% reduction in staff due to redundancy? (Tongue firmly in cheek) It would be interesting to know what the PVR figure was before and after the redundancy announcements. Rumour has it that some branches (mine for example) are haemorrhaging individuals after they found they didn't get redundancy.



Melchett wrote:Yes, I'd love to see that. IIRC, weren't MPs asking for something like a 66% pay rise to take them up to £100k at the back end of last year? Apparently to take them into line with people like doctors - the fact that doctors actually EARN their £100k seemed to have escaped most politicians. From what I can gather £60k + huge pension + "services" of a secretary seems more than enough for an bunch of unqualified liars.The probem is that we are now in the era of the proffessional politician. Gone are they days when our MPs had already proved themselves in real life, be it medicine, business or heaven forbid the military!!! before they decide it is time to give someting back to the nation by putting themselves forward for public political life. Now we have these political studies graduates who think they are owed a living and they can achieve this through their time in parliment. With the chance that a large number of them are not going to see another term is it any surprise that the "cash for honours" spectre is prowling the corridors of Whitehall?!!

[LFFC]

How can an AVM possibly say that next years pay rise will be a lot better?

Each year a totally separate AFPRB sits to decide the pay increae. There is often an upper cap set by the Treasury/Government policy of the day, based on economic conditions/inflation rate, etc. Who can predict in advance what the situation will be in a years time?

Maybe the rumour of a 2-stage pay rise is true and the AVM is refering to the second stage that might be paid on 1 Jan 08? Guess we'll just have to wait and see - but I'm not holding my breath.

However, if the stories that I keep hearing about the number of aircrew (particularly pilots) leaving are true, then it would be a brave move to add insult to injury by capping the AFPRB's recommended pay rise.

[formertonkaplum]

Will today bring the bad news........

Probably

[Sospan]

Not likely to be today, a list of Written Ministerial Statements to be made today has already been published.

see here http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmagenda/ob70226.htm

[Confucius]

Perhaps we're not getting a pay rise this year...

[L1A2 discharged]

Fed up with waiting for any authoratitive info, e-mailed my MP to ask him to table a question .....

Wonder if anything will happen now? :rolleyes:






Oh, is that a black Omega, certainly I can come with you, just need to finish this e-mail ........:sad:

[Sospan]

See my link above, there isnt even a sniff of it in todays Oral Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence :ugh:

[Confucius]

P'raps Des is too busy looking for A: a personality and B: some charisma, to worry about us lot.

[MLT]

In the past the Pay Review Body Reports have been published at midday on the day of release and this has been announced at the number-10 press briefings.

[startermotor]

I for one have just about enough. It had better be a fairly good pay rise or we could see lots of good people leaving.


Maybe that is what they will be banking on.

[Confucius]

See my link above, there isnt even a sniff of it in todays Oral Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence

Perhaps L1A2's MP can pass a motion or whatever perverted practice they get up to when they should be working.

[BootFlap]

Right then, they've basically told me I will spend ~6 months of each of the next 3 years in Afghanistan, so when are they going to tell me the good news about pay? Or is this a case of 'do you want the bad news, or the really bad news?'
Mrs BF is really impressed, she has already worked out how she is going to spend my 'operational bonus'; each 6 months buys her a slightly larger cup size! (Going to be a bit weird in the middle 6 months though!):E

[LFFC]

Lord Garden asked the question in the Lords this afternoon (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/ldtoday/10.htm#hddr_1):

4:31pm - Lord Garden "With regard to the morale of our troops, this may sound as if it is a long way from operations in Afghanistan, but it will be important to them: when will the Armed Forces Pay Review Body report be published? It is now more overdue than it has ever been, and it will be taken by the troops as a signal of how much the Government value what they are doing."

4:37pm - Lord Drayson "I do not have an update for the House on the timing of the pay review report. If I can get some information, I will write to noble Lords with an answer."

My underlining - but that's a very astute statement.

[L1A2 discharged]

According to a recruiting website that I visit the current 'average' rate of pay increase is 3.4% in manufacturing industries (those few which remain) and 3.6% in "other" areas. For the staticians the article does not state mean or mode :hmm:
Busy polishing my draft CV. :D

[Sospan]

Its not today either !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmagenda/ob70227.htm

[TheHogwartsBEngO]

According to a recruiting website that I visit the current 'average' rate of pay increase is 3.4% in manufacturing industries (those few which remain) and 3.6% in "other" areas. For the staticians the article does not state mean or mode :hmm:


The small civvy MRO that I work for have given a whopping average pay rise this year of a fantastic 0.0% so far...

the grass in not always greener :=

[timex]

the grass in not always greener

No, but it is Grass and not Sand...........

[Sospan]

Once again the announcement will not be published today. :mad:

[I_stood_in_the_door]

All,

I also contacted my MP to raise the question of 'When and What?' are we getting. And indeed, what is going on at the MoD aka 'Handbrake House'.

To date, no reply. Any luck with you, L1A2?

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:ugh:

[propulike]

Perhaps they're waiting for a 'bad news' day. It really wouldn't be a good idea to announce a low award when we can't take industrial action - but the civilianised bits of the MoD are doing this !!! (MoD Staff go on strike over pay) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6402611.stm).

(Always was a good idea to cut costs by getting rid of uniforms, wasn't it Minister :p . In a rather perverse way I'm delighted to see it coming back to bite you on the ar$e.)

[MLT]

As reported in the Financial Times late last night:

'The independent pay arbitrators that cover senior civil servants, judges, prison officers and NHS staff have recommended rises for most employees below not only the retail price index rate of 4.2 per cent but also the consumer price index, which stands at 2.7 per cent.'

'Only the review body covering the armed forces is understood to have recommended a rise above the CPI.' see article here.
(http://www.ft.com/cms/s/cde23602-c6a5-11db-8f4f-000b5df10621.html)

[SaddamsLoveChild]

It shows in what low regard the Govt hold us, in what low regard the MOD civ servants processing this hold us and actually the fact that there has been no feedback from AMP - how little influence our senior staff officers have.

I despair and am glad to have pulled the plug.:\

[RODF3]

Hot rumour at this location 2.6% for ORs and 0.0% for Officers. That should set the cat amongst the feathered vermin!

[Confucius]

If that's the case I might not be able to clear my ears on a fairly regular basis. I'm not going on strike of course, just looking after my health y'see.

[startermotor]

2.6% for 'OR's' and 0.0% for officers!!! Last man out turn out the lights

[TheHogwartsBEngO]

so in real terms a 2.5% pay cut for officers. (Again, one rule for us, another for them :rolleyes: )

I feel for you guys, I really do. I suppose it's only a rumour but if true I for one will be keen to see a very large public outcry.

[Mad_Mark]

I think that will be hook, line and sinker RODF3 :D

[Door Slider]

The annual pay award will be announced in one months time, April the 1st since it will be a complete joke!!!

[Aeronut]

even if it weren't a wind up it would be about par for the course - there is a very steady erosion of officer's benefits in comparison to the ORs.
eg disturbance allowance for officers marking time for years ,
previous pay rises greater in % terms for lower ranks.
Recent allowance reduction that hit officers far more than ORs,
New pension scheme removes earlier pension option age.
By reducing the difference it dilutes the incentive to strive for a commission and makes those already shouldering the responsibilities to question why they do.
I agree its apparently good for ORs, however, it is an erosion of benefits for officers.

[Fast but Safe]

How obvious can this be?

We were not born yesterday. Here we are, the day before March, still waiting for our well deserved pay rise and the government has 'gone dark' on us.

No questions, no comments, nothing at all. The delay can only fuel the theory that the shutters are up and everyone within the upper circle have been told to zip their mouths! :oh: (If you ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies!)

If we were to get a substantial pay increase, relative to the praise we get everyday from the leader(s) of this country, it would have been done at the same time as the afghan or Harry deployments were released.

Therefore, there is only two options left :-

1. The Armed Forces pay review body are still fighting our side, or
2. The government is dragging the release date out until some massive news headlines takes over.

I would love to say the former, but that will only happen when most of our top officers are retired. So while the news remains bland and boring we will be sitting here twiddling our thumbs, waiting. :zzz: :confused: :zzz: ........

If you want my prediction, we will receive the normal rubbish and nobody will bat an eyelid.......because not one Labour MP will want to get on the wrong side of GB. When it comes to our top military ranks making comments for us.....you can forget it, until they're surrounded by a leather sofa, sat in retired safety.

Sorry to be so negative, but this is just 'another brick in the wall' for us to all bang against! :ugh:

FbS

[Level 28]

So young yet so cynical......HMG are just going to get all the other pay awards out the way before they announce ours. I've heard 7.9% for all.........


"When did the sky turn pink?" :ok:

[Mightycrewseven]

Quote:
Therefore, there is only two options left :-
1. The Armed Forces pay review body are still fighting our side, or
2. The government is dragging the release date out until some massive news headlines takes over.


What, like when the final resting place of Anna-Nicole Smith is released, 'cos that's all average Jo(e) public is interested in!:sad:

[startermotor]

Maybe we are all to cynical. Perhaps the government are just waiting to announce the pay rises for all other public sectors and wait for the dust to settle, before announcing a well deserved whacking one for us.

bringgggggg!! the alarm has just gone off, time to get up

[Confucius]

Isn't it about time that some blinkered brainwashed no-life ass*-licking career-monkey appears and tells us that we should all be proud to serve, and should in fact be paying the government for wearing the uniform of 'Er Majesty's Armed Forces?

* I have always preferred the American version, it has more bite and sounds less pompous than the Brit variant.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Not if we're in the Army or Royal Navy!

[HEDP]

I reckon that if had come out by now JPA would have only had a 95% chance of c**king it up so they are waiting till it is time critical for the software to be updated to ensure a 100% chance of a JPA glitch.

Good job the Army aren't on till next month :E

[starbucksJ]

They're clearly waiting for the February inflation figures in the hope that those figures are lower than January's. Don't want to announce a pay award below inflation in the month when inflation peaked and the apparent 'pay cut' appears at its worst. My bet is 2.6% all round to match the pensioners. Next week is my bet.:oh:

[Biggus]

starbucksJ

The UK inflation rate for January was announced on 13 February, so are you implying we will have to wait until around 12-14 March before the pay rise details are announced?

Of course..... you may well be right!!

[L1A2 discharged]

No reply from the MP (yet).

If 'we' all e-mail questions to our respective members (correct in every sense) might it at least provoke a ripple?

[Confucius]

If 'we' all e-mail questions to our respective members (correct in every sense) might it at least provoke a ripple?
It's got to be worth a try.

http://www.upmystreet.com/commons/l/ to identify your MP if you are unsure.

One assumes most liberal MPs can be contacted on Hampstead Heath after dark

[WINGMONG]

Officers maoning again! you dont sem to mention the massive pensions of the Air Ranks! The lack of DWR that you do in comparison and the Whole Flying Club is run by your SNCOs

[South Bound]

Wingmong

kinda lost me there fella. Guys here are looking for a decent pay rise for all. If a few of them happen to be officers, not sure what your gripe is. Then again, if you are happy to get a crappy pay rise, good for you fella, very economically sound too - you are an example to us all.

Personally, I think I am great and deserve 8%;)

[rudekid]

Officers maoning again! you dont sem to mention the massive pensions of the Air Ranks! The lack of DWR that you do in comparison and the Whole Flying Club is run by your SNCOs


Anybody any ideas on what this means in English? :8

[spectre150]

Officers maoning again! you dont sem to mention the massive pensions of the Air Ranks! The lack of DWR that you do in comparison and the Whole Flying Club is run by your SNCOs

Not sure what you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting we reduce Air Rank pensions (to what level?) or increase SNCO pensions? Could you give us examples of where 'we' do less DWR (I don't know what that is) and to whom 'we' are being compared. If 'our' Flying Club is being run by SNCOs maybe they should take the blame for the state of the Whole Flying Club.

[startermotor]

As a SNCO, I agree with most of the post on here. However WINGMONG you are totally out of order. Everyone in this outfit deserves a good payrise this year. Everyone is at the limit, every section is stretched to the max.
Give the boys and girls what they deserve.

[Radar Command T/O]

Officers maoning again! you dont sem to mention the massive pensions of the Air Ranks! The lack of DWR that you do in comparison and the Whole Flying Club is run by your SNCOs
I was wondering, will there be a complete, correct sentence in any of your future pearls of wisdom?
In any case, the "Officers maoning again (sic)" are actually hoping for a decent pay rise for all, but you're just moaning about the officers. I have no idea what "DWR" is, but if it's anything to do with amount of work put in by officers, every single officer without exception on my Squadron works a minimum 50 hour week, excluding station duties and night flying, while on top of their flying and administrative duties they have ingrates like you to try and keep happy. :ugh:
At least, that's how it is for the Navy. I'm sure my colleague in the Air Force will correct me if it's any different for them.
However, if you personally don't care about your pay, you can always try to refuse whatever "rise" we get this year - I'm sure JPA has a button for it somewhere.:rolleyes:

[Sospan]

Afraid there is no announcement today, the only defense written statement in Parliament today is about the Industrial Strategy—Fixed Wing Sector.


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ZH875]

However, if you personally don't care about your pay, you can always try to refuse whatever "rise" we get this year - I'm sure JPA has a button for it somewhere.

If it did, I bet that would be the ONLY bit of JPA to work correctly.:rolleyes:

[Frank_Gallagher]

Doesn't look like it's today either, however, Monday may bring more joy;


Monday 5 March
The House will sit at 2.30pm
Oral Questions - Culture, Media and Sport; Church Commissioners; Public Accounts Commission; Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission.


Time will tell.

On another note, WINGMONG I am hoping that you are refering to SNCO's in the third person, because if you actually are a Senior you make yourself and the rest of us look pr1cks with comments like that.

[Sospan]

The AFPRB anouncemnt is always given in a written statement, all written statements are listed for that day about 0900 on the House Of Commons order of bussiness webpage.

[Aeronut]

"So this will be the first AFPRB to report in March then"
Not necessarily! Could be April but I'm not saying which year.

[starbucksJ]

Biggus

Didn't realise the figures are published so far into the month. However, they might manage to get the figures out earlier this month if they want to use them to justify a crap pay rise:* I still think they'll wait. All too quiet.

On the optimistic side, did hear that Govt TOLD AFPRB to go back to the table to ask for MORE money around the time the Operational Allowance came out!:ooh:

Never know - GB might want to secure some defence votes ahead of May with his last budget by spending loads more cash on us and then letting some other fool clear up the mess:E

[startermotor]

Would a decent payrise change your mind? Would you vote for GB????

[insty66]

No!

No way!

Not ever!

[Ordynants]

What he said.

[Barely Restrained]

Any comment on the attached?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6408061.stm

Can't see a specific figure for the Armed Forces, but the story (in true journo fashion!) infers 1.9% along with all other Public Sector workers. Looks like we'll be doing theirs and our jobs later in the year, for our 1.9, if threats of industrial action go through!! :\

[LFFC]

In answer to Lord Garden's question in the House of Lords (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70226-0005.htm) on Monday:

With regard to the morale of our troops, this may sound as if it is a long way from operations in Afghanistan, but it will be important to them: when will the Armed Forces Pay Review Body report be published? It is now more overdue than it has ever been, and it will be taken by the troops as a signal of how much the Government value what they are doing.


Lord Drayson (for the government) said the following:

I do not have an update for the House on the timing of the pay review report. If I can get some information, I will write to noble Lords with an answer.

Does anyone know if the gallant and noble Lord has written an answer to the House yet?

[Frank_Gallagher]

Day one Lesson One on the Instructors course;

If you don't know the answer and can't be arsed finding out what it is just reply that you will find out and get back to them.


Reckon the honourable Lord spent a couple of weeks at Halton.

[Aeronut]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6408061.stm
Pay awards below inflation for public sector
[Public sector] pay awards would be implemented in two stages, and the armed forces in full, from April 1, said Mr Brown.


No mention of the AF numbers though.

[dum_my]

3.3 % for all except senior officers.

[MLT]

Members of the armed forces, except senior officers, will receive inflation-busting rises of 3.3 per cent for the year.



http://www.euro2day.gr/articlesfna/29638834/

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Everybody out!!!!

Don't think the nurses will be too happy.

[The Masked Geek]

So what are the senior officers getting then? 0% or 50% ?

[plans123]

Stand by for even more overstretch as we cover the Firemans strike, Ambulance Drivers strike, Nurses strike etc etc etc................Oh and the American invasion of Iran...................:E

[Roland Pulfrew]

Bl00dy great isn't it? We are fighting 2 wars, at time when overstretch is effecting every military unit, with the RPI running at 4.4% and we have to hear about our inflation bustingpay rise through a Greek newspaper website!!!!

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Radar Command T/O]

What's the bet they now redefine the term "Senior Officer" to mean everyone above the rank of Sub-Lieutenant?

:*

[Confucius]

No!

No way!

Not ever!

Agree 100%.

BUT

One could always lie to him. That, after all, would be a way of speaking to a politician that they would understand.

[BootFlap]

It's not that I don't believe the Greek newspaper report, but I am surprised there is no more detail on the Armed Forces pay deal on the BBC or any other UK site yet. Waiting with baited breath for the full report!!!!

[Almost_done]

I am now looking for other employment.

[Frank_Gallagher]

It's about the best we could have expected.

[formertonkaplum]

And what percentage did that Fat Pr*ck Brown give himself and fellow MP's in their last increase?

Overpaid, self-appreciating Co*k. Lets hope he never gets the top job...... I'd rather have Dubbya in charge.

Run a country; he couldn't run a bath ! :ugh:

[dampsquib]

you can read about the payrise on the FT site here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/49c1f7bc-c7e6-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html

[3 bladed beast]

Now guys come on - I think this is a fantastic amount of money for a payrise - it shows the government to be really appreciative of the work we do.

The extra money will come in useful - let say of 40000 pay,( I know some are higher, some lower!!) thats an extra 1320 pounds, minus of course 35% (or so) in tax and national insurance...which is around 858 divided by 12 which gives us an extra 71.50 a month.

INFACT it will possibly just about cover the rise in my quarter charges....or possibly the inflation busting rise in my council tax this year - which will of course be used to fund the massive increase in MPs payrise this year.

He giveth and he taketh.....

[London Mil]

Well I got a 3.37% rise. Suppose it is a little better that the civil servants I work with.

[South Bound]

The real slap comes when those of us (un)fortunate enough to live in SFA find out how much that is going up... Bet it is more than 3.3%

Still I am sitting here blissfully ignoring the report in the Greek newspaper convinced that it is wrong and they meant 8.3%

This really is a lovely planet you know, much nicer than Earth...

[Flying_Scotsman]

ARMED FORCES GET HIGHEST PAY RISE IN PUBLIC SECTOR

LOWEST PAID GET 9.2% - OVER £100 PER MONTH


Des Browne, Defence Secretary, announced today that the Government has accepted in full the recommendations of the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body, and will implement them without delay.

The 13,000 lowest paid servicemen and women will see their pay go up by 9.2% - over £100 per month, and the biggest pay rise for four years. A further 6,000 on the next-lowest pay level will get 6.2%. There is good news too for all other ranks and officers, regulars and reserves, who will receive a 3.3% increase. This increase, the highest in the public sector, will take effect from 1 April, next month.

Des Browne, Secretary of State for Defence, said:
“I am delighted to be able to announce this significant pay rise for our Armed Forces, which is thoroughly deserved after what has been a challenging year. It reflects my ongoing commitment to make sure they get the support and recognition they deserve for the tremendous work they do.

This decision comes on top of the new tax free bonus introduced in October – which gave special recognition to those on operations. Today’s decision recognises the superb work done by all our Armed Forces, wherever they serve. I am particularly pleased to confirm that our most junior servicemen and women will now get an extra £100 per month.”
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, Chief of Defence Staff, said:

“This pay increase is very good news for the Armed Forces. It recognises the key contribution our people and their families make to the nation, as well as the particularly onerous operational challenges they are having to face at the moment.

“It reflects how highly – rightly – they are valued by the Government and the country as a whole.”

Senior officers will receive a 2% increase, as recommended by the independent review body and in line with overall increases in public sector pay.

Today’s decision comes on top of the new tax free operational bonus introduced in October – which gave special recognition to those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Balkans, and which has so far been paid to around 31,000 people, totalling some £35 million.

In total, around £350 million more per year will be going into pay and allowances: £280m more in pay and £67m more for the operational bonus each year.

Today’s announcement also covered further enhancements for personnel on operations. The Longer Separation Allowance will also increase by 3.3%, and the 100 day initial qualifying period is being removed, meaning troops will be entitled to the daily rate after just ten days separated service.

In total, as a result of the increases announced today and in the autumn, a Private soldier deploying on their first operation will now receive:


basic pay between £15,677 - £26,664
£2,240 tax free Operational Allowance over a 6 month tour
at least a further thousand pounds in separation allowance over a six month tour
Recruitment is improving, better than this time last year, but there are specific challenges in retaining our experienced people, and in response we are introducing new Financial Retention Incentives payable to Royal Marines, Infantry and Aircrew, providing an estimated extra £17m to approximately 2,300 additional personnel.

Notes for Editors:

1. The Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body (AFPRB) is an independent group comprising eight members and the Chairman, Professor David Greenaway. It reports annually on levels of pay for the Armed Forces.

2. The AFPRB bases its recommendations on broad comparability with similarly weighted civilian jobs. The Review Body gathers evidence from a wide variety of sources and takes account of a number of factors including Government evidence.

3. Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) comes into force for the Army from April 2007. JPA gives the individual far greater freedom to change their personal details, apply for postings, submit expenses and allowances and generally take ownership of their information. JPA was introduced to the RAF in April 2006 and the Royal Navy in October 2006.

4. Tables showing pay rates for 2006/7 and 2007/8; other public body pay awards; and examples of illustrative net pay increases (net of any increases in charges) are attached.

5. For more information about the Armed Forces Pay Rise, please contact Paul Leat in the MoD Press Office on 020 7218 3257 or visit www.mod.uk (http://www.mod.uk/)


PAY RATES – 2006/7 and 2007/08


RANK

Pay from 1/4/06

Pay from 1/4/07

Brigadier
82,990 - 86,527
85,787 – 89,444
Colonel
69,189 - 76,471
71,522 – 79,049
Lt Col
59,747 - 66,047
61,761 – 68,273
Major
42,570 - 50,983
44,005 – 52,702
Captain
33,795 - 40,190
34,935 – 41,545
Lieutenant
13,881 - 29,149
14,349 – 30,131
Warrant Officer I
34,405 - 41,672
35,565 – 43,077
Warrant Officer II &Staff Sergeant
29,612 - 38,551
30,611 – 39,851
Sergeant
26,751- 32,916
27,653 – 34,025
Corporal
23,535 - 29,576
24,328 – 30,573
Lance Corporal & Private
14,323 - 25,795
15,677 – 26,664







ILLUSTRATIVE WEEKLY PAY INCREASES OVER THE LAST 6 MONTHS




Weekly
Net Increase
1
Junior Soldier based in the UK, living in Single Living accommodation (SLA)
Receives: 3.3% and Pay Range 1 increase to basic pay
Deductions: Food and accommodation charges
£24.51
2
Junior Soldier on operational deployment
Receives: 3.3% and Pay Range 1 increase to basic pay. Longer Separation Allowance and Operational Allowance.
Deductions: None
£69.30
3
Married Sergeant based in the UK, living in Service Families Accommodation (SFA)
Receives: 3.3% increase to basic pay.
Deductions: Accommodation costs.
£17.57
4
Married Sergeant on operational deployment, family in SFA in UK
Receives: 3.3% increase to basic pay. Longer Separation Allowance and Operational Allowance.
Deductions: Accommodation costs.
£19.74
5
Married Major based in UK, living in SFA
Receives: 3.3% increase to basic pay
Deductions: Accommodation costs.
£28.42
6
Married Major on operational deployment, with family in SFA in UK
Receives: 3.3% increase to basic pay. Longer Separation Allowance and Operational Allowance.
Deductions: Accommodation costs.
£31.36

[South Bound]

B*gger, all confirmed and official - 3.3% up to 1-Star.

I take it back - SFA going up by a maximum of 2.7%. Not as bad as it could have been.

[tgarden]

Frank_G
In fact Lord Drayson was a bit faster than you expected. He told me this afternoon in the House that the AFPRB report will be announced with a written statement tomorrow.

[MLT]

Bootflap,

Here is a report from the Financial Times, it says the same:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/49c1f7bc-c7e6-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html

MLT

[TheHogwartsBEngO]

still better than my 0.0% rise. :*

plus Mrs BEngO (another public sector worker) stops working in September - all because of the arrival of mini BEngO*... :{

it could be worse chaps...



*- should that be FEngO - Foetal EngO?

[sirsaltyhelmet]

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/LowestRankGet92InForcesBiggestPayRiseForFourYears.htm

[Tourist]

£100,000 FRI for pilots isn't bad though!
Especially for only 3 yrs return!

[BootFlap]

SSH and MLT,

thanks for the links.

Tourist,

where are you getting your info? I seem to be in a void here! (that's been said before!)

[Tombstone]

I've been sitting waiting for this to happen after the pathetic 'tax-free' bonus Brown gave us.

That's me done Mr Brown, I'm banging out and I'm sure plenty others will be doing the same. How you can have the nerve of offer the Parachute Regiment, Royal Marines, not to mention the AH & SH personnel a pay rise that is nothing more than a huge kick in the nuts I'll never know.

A big thankyou to the Chiefs who have obviously fought our corner to the bitter end. Perhaps CAS was too busy on his Typhoon course to have time to face up to the ministers at a time when the forces are already beyond breaking point.

Thanks for f**k all. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[lokiukuk]

just in 3.3%

[Ginseng]

Chapter 4

Recommendation 5

"We recommend the £50,000 Aircrew FRI be extended from 1 Apr 2007 for three years payable to RAF and RN Career Stream Senior Officer Aircrew at the IPP for a five-year return of service. An additional £50,000 will be payable to RAF and RN Career Stream Senior Officer Pilots only."

Regards

Ginseng

[Tourist]

I had not sotted the SENIOR OFFICER bit.
Surely they cannot mean Cdrs and above?!!:eek: :eek:

[BootFlap]

An additional £50,000 will be payable to RAF and RN Career Stream Senior Officer Pilots only."
Is this at IPP on top of the 50k, or is it for all Career Stream Senior Officer Pilots regardless of age?

Tourist, 'senior officer' would probably be Lt Cdr/Maj/Sqn Ldr and above.

[lampeterexile]

Go a long way towards my 6% rise in water and 4.8% rise in council tax. F*#@*~g W*&^~r:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ginseng]

JTO,

Yes. It is now on the Defence Intranet and has been linked on some Stn Intranet sites. At 90-odd pages, please don't expect me to quote it all here!


Bootflap,

It appears to be applied only at the IPP, for a further 5-yr minimum committment. The earlier text also suggests that while it could be offered to all qualifying pilots, it may only be open to selected WSOs. Happy reading!

Regards

Ginseng

[plans123]

I've heard a rumour that the actual pay details have just been put on the Scampton Intranet site...................but I may be wrong.

[Whaaa newark]

Has anyone got a link to the break down of the pay rise and to the Aircrew FRI?

Tks

No Whaaa

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Does anyone know further gen on the troops getting a 9 or 6% payrise? Something about it on the mod news site but it doesnt go into much detail. Anybody know ranks and numbers for those? Trying to find out for the troops

[Wrathmonk]

Tombstone

RM other ranks (not my words!) will be offered a £10K FRI (for those with four years service) subject to a 3 yr return of service. This includes the existing Commitment Bonus.

Infantry other ranks (which incluses the Paras I would have thought) will be offered an FRI of £4.5K for those with more than 4 yrs service in return for 2 years service. This is in addition to the existing commitment bonuses (£5.5K).

Granted, not the same as a career stream pilot but better than nothing.

W

[plans123]

Whereas the majority of RAF ground staff will be issued PVR forms...........

[Radar Command T/O]

Here's the actual report, in PDF:


http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FFC91A50-1018-43AE-8B7D-9AEA41A0DA8B/0/afprb_rpt_2007.pdf

[CAC Runaway]

Interestingly the report doesn't mention Army aircrew at any point when talking about FRI. Does that mean it is no longer required for the green suits? :ugh:

[airborne_artist]

3.43.....As an indication of the effectiveness of short term measures, the manning position for Army Aircrew had improved with a surplus of Lynx and Gazelle Aircrew leading to withdrawal of the FRI in April 2006, a year earlier than planned.

[D-IFF_ident]

Just done the sums for my personal circumstances - the bootom line is an inflation-busting net pay rise of less than 200 pounds per year. But, having referenced that to the Retail Price Index - coz I buys my stuff at the shops - I will be a couple of hundred pounds a year worse off.

The extra FRI for Snr offr pilots - 50 grand for staying for 5 years and then, for accepting that FRI, you can have another 50 grand too. Who is being targetted here? IMHO, (in the Multi world) the money will almost entirely go to chaps who were staying anyway; nobody will change their minds and stay for 5 years for less than 60000 net, and the cost of 5 years seniority and employability in an airline. The bottom line their must be a substantial loss in lifetime earnings.

15 months 20 days left...

[Ginseng]

Yes, interesting headline isn't it? 9.4% for the lowest ranks!. This appears to be a disgusting piece of spin, generated by assuming that the "lowest ranks" concerned are deployed on ops and therefore receiving the Operational Allowance, which has then been factored in to the calculation of their "whopping pay rise". I can see the argument, but I think it will be a case of shooting through both feet when said troops find out that their basic pay is not rising by 9.4%. But that is just my opinion!
Regards
Ginseng

Edited to correct spooling errors!

[Ginseng]

Actualy, to be fair, some of the answer probably lies here:

Chap 3, Recommendation 2:

"We recommend the targeted restructuring of Pay Range 1 from 1 Apr 07 as follows:

The rate for Pay Range 1 (higher and lower band) Increment Level 1 be increased to £15,677; and

The rate for Pay Range 1 (lower band) Increment Level 2 be increased to £16,111.

The annual salary scales arising from our recommendations are at Appendix 1."

Regards

Ginseng

[AC Ovee]

It was somewhat heartening to read the veiled criticism of the DHE with a recommendation that the rent increase for the best SFA will be capped at 2.7% with a graduated reduction in the percentage increase for the lower standard SFA.

[zedder]

From para 3.17 of the report:

"RAF full-time trained strength was 46,940 at 1 Apr 2006 - a deficit of 0.7% and in broad manning balance although masking severe deficits in key specialisations. By October 2006 the deficit increased to 5.7% as manning levels reduced faster than the requirement"

Well if ever we needed proof the RAF are in meltdown, there it is in black and white!:eek:

[FCWhippingBoy]

Ginseng, you're correct! After doing the math, it would seem that LACs (High & Low Band) will be getting the big 9.4% and Low Band SAC Level 2 the 6.2%. The rest of us get the 3.3% (actually 3.37%).

[Front Seater]

So let me get this right,
As an Army AH pilot, working my self and family into the ground, if I wanted an FRI I would have to see if I could transfer to either the RN or RAF?
And all this because of the draw down of Gazelle and Lynx.
Hang on a minute - even if the other 2 services wouldn't accept my transfer, I am certainly not working the routine I am now and will be asking to go back onto another aircraft type where the pace of life isn't so damaging.
Or I could just stop whining like an Astazou and face the fact that lights are on but no one is at home and accept that no one is listening or cares and just sign off and go to CHC or Netjets.
If there are any any ex-Army guys in the other Services, did you keep your pension and were you also entitled to the FRI? Have any WO/NCOs made it through the wire?
This is another reason why we should just go Joint - one rule, one job, one company, one Boss - not the deviscive inter-Service stuff that this highlights.

[starbucksJ]

oops - didn't quite get that prediction right re waiting for the inflation announcement. Perhaps I should work in the Treasury and forecast manning levels for the next 5 years:\ Can't get it much worse.

Did notice the hidden pay rise intention for next year though. Pension benefit comparison reduced from 7% to 4% from Apr 07. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this mean a pay rise before inflation of around 3% next year. i.e. if it had happened last year, this year's rise would be 6.3%?:suspect:

Please tell me I'm being too optimistic:O

[HEDP]

I guess thats my mind made up then. An extra person for CTT 8 required!

I guess there was no interest in catching AH guys before the Dishforth to Wattisham swap takes its bite out of the manning of AH.

Not like its a popular operational platform with a critical pinch point manning issue at the moment then. Can't possibly be as it wasn't an issue raised in the report.

Any truth in the rumour that someone just admitted the figures were wrong and the 70 pilot surplus was actually a defecit?

:D

[Ginseng]

StarbucksJ:
I'm afraid your maths are a little optimistic. A 3% reduction in the pension value comparator does not translate into a 3% rise in Military Salary. If only it were that simple!
JTO:
Watch out for major changes to food charges strategy from 1 Jul 07. you didn't hear it from me, OK?
Regards
Ginseng

[BootFlap]

Come on then Ginseng, give us a clue!

PAYD whilst deployed on Ops? Banning of all T-Bars when at home? Little Chef to be given the monopoly for all Service messes?

[Ginseng]

Sorry.

"Not to be communicated to anyone outside HM Service without authority."

This is t'internet you know!

Search at work for 2007DIN02-075.

Regards

Ginseng

[brit bus driver]

The extra FRI for Snr offr pilots - 50 grand for staying for 5 years and then, for accepting that FRI, you can have another 50 grand too. Who is being targetted here? IMHO, (in the Multi world) the money will almost entirely go to chaps who were staying anyway; nobody will change their minds and stay for 5 years for less than 60000 net, and the cost of 5 years seniority and employability in an airline. The bottom line their must be a substantial loss in lifetime earnings.

So is that the extra £50k at the end of the five years' commitment? Or £100k (minus tax and NI) up front? Must say, I agree D-IFFers; guys on staff college or in the boarding school trap will take the cash and be jolly happy. Nonetheless, given that Easy (for example) have reportedly suggested fast-track command for suitably qualified RAF chaps, with a salary of £75-80k plus the pension... is there a choice? Other than Virgin, ofcourse, who are hiring again..

359 days to go....

[vortexadminman]

Why with all the "gurus" out there can we not get it right. I am chuffed for the Army toms getting some more wedge for working there tits off. When it comes to aviation the senior levels rake it in. Have not seen that many senior officers doing the back to back dets ( in the driving seat) seen a awful lot of RAF spec aircrew and AAC senior NCO s though, funny old thing these are the people who have been about a bit. FAA Honestly can't say am sure they are but I have not been with them so can't comment, mind you have the a ship to come home to?. Do they ( who are they?) honestly think that the spec aircrew of whatever rank will sit on the good old pension trap for ever....... nope think the manning levels dropping kinda proves that but with companies like Virgin paying OK wedge to fly and have a life even the most commited people have to have a look and compare the life/work cycle. Mind you, cynical as I am right now, most of the powers that be only have to stick there finger in the Dyke for two years then they move on and can say when I was in charge we had no figures to prove there was a problem. OK wine took over I'll get my coat.

[AC Ovee]

Just This Once,
I too saw the statement about removal of free food while on detached duty. I'm hoping the policy refers only to detachments to other home units. Op deployments usually involve field rations, and therefore should remain free of charge.

[Ginseng]

"Field Conditions (Food)" regulations, which generally relate to operational deployments, are not changing (allegedly) - but of course, I never said that.

Regards

Ginseng

[Front Seater]

Jesus!
Guys (and girls!) thanks for all of the PMs - some really good top tips.
It has well and truly made up my mind. All of the AAC Officers that are looking at flying a desk should seriously consider looking over the fence - there really is considerably more options availible from the other 2 Services, and not just rotary.
As to the NCOs, certainly looks as though there is scope to explore the avenues for a transfer and apply for a commission - again not limited to rotary.
I just really cannot see why HQ DAAvn (that sells itself to the rest of us light blue as looking after its own in a hostile 'Joint' environment)has allowed this to take place. If the AAC is so toppers for aircrew then why not do what the Navy boys did with 3BAS/847 and get rid of the dead wood and commission the remainder - then within the Joint Helicopter world the ebb and flow of aircrew manning could be taken on with a Joint perspective to alleviate these 'pinch points'.
Equally, thanks for those ex Services in civvie street that have provided some good info on the way of the civvie market - and certainly looks an option (especially from Mrs Front Seaters perspective).
Do you know the sad thing - I actually enjoy my job, still believe in Queen and Country and if we had been manned correctly from the beginning then I probably wouldn't feel so tired of just waiting for some good news - steady state my @rse

[Pontius Navigator]

Front Seater As to the NCOs, certainly looks as though there is scope to explore the avenues for a transfer and apply for a commission - again not limited to rotary

Very true.

My son in law was a SSgt doing a very important job on helicopter electronics with the REME. The Army would neither promote him (30) nor commission him. He explored escape routes and is now a Sqn Ldr serving in JHC. The escape tunnel to a commission and promotion to senior rank took only 6 years.

With the switch to expeditionary warfare, and a temporary switch to air support, there is clearly scope for people used to Army ways.

[timex]

3.43.....As an indication of the effectiveness of short term measures, the manning position for Army Aircrew had improved with a surplus of Lynx and Gazelle Aircrew leading to withdrawal of the FRI in April 2006, a year earlier than planned.

AA, that would be great if the AAC were getting rid of the Gaz. However its now being extended to 2018! The surplus was actually a shortfall!

Still not a great deal for the guys at the coal face.

Shaun

[Jez845]

Having just read the Armed Forces Pay Review 2007 I must say I'm a little confused. There is reference to extending the FRI by another three years in response to an 18% deficit in pilots up to Lt Cdr but the figures only mention the new additional 50k for senior officers. So have we still got the 30k FRI at the 5yr point or should we assume by its absence in the report that it has been withdrawn?

[boomboy]

Jez, just had a read of said doc and was also confused by this part in the text, anyone heard anything about whether the £30k (or £18k after tax) at IPP - 5 years is still in circulation or has it been withdrawn completely?

[Tube Launched]

Well recently in parlimentary written questions, the subject of current manning within the AAC was brougyht up and the figures were as follows:

First figure is planned strength and second figure actual strength.

1 Regt AAC: 60 (54)
3 Regt AAC: 85 (57)
4 Regt AAC: 85 (63)
5 Regt AAC: 93 (64)
9 Regt AAC: 85 (69)

This doesn't take into account people on conversion courses, although it doesn't take the brains of the holy one to work out that is at max 20..

So on those figures (as at Feb 07) I make that 101 aircrew not accounted for..
and even with the withdrawal of Gazelle, which I believe has been extended again...

But I guess what is more bitter to swallow is that the RAF/RN FRI was based upon the lure of civvi flying. So let me get this straight...Army and RM pilots aren't able to find employment outside the services?? Me thinks not.

Add to this the latest slap in the face of recalculating rates of pay, so that there is no seniority in length of flying service...well all I can say is someone has taken a hoofing big gun and aimed it well and truly at their feet!!

:*

[timex]

Army and RM pilots aren't able to find employment outside the services?? Me thinks not.

At Gatwick yesterday met an oppo of mine, also just by looking around saw at least 3 or 4 other Mil looking chaps. Then later in the day spoke to another oppo who had just done his exams at Cranfield and he was amazed at the amount of people he knew there..


Door seems to be very open just now..............

[mutleyfour]

Tubelaunched

Good work on those figures but as long as the AAC protects whomever it was that got the sums wrong then I'm happy, because I wouldnt wish him/her to look silly as I'd rather everyone just up sticks and left. Smacks a bit of upper echelons once again looking after one of its own. I reiterate a statement made to me which I mentioned on the FRI thread: Quote: "You NCO's were lucky to have got it at all" Unquote!

[Si Clik]

Jez845 and Boomboy

FRI 1 has gone in toto. FRI 2 will be paid to Lt Cdrs and above who reach IPP between 1 Apr 07 and 31 Mar 10 if they are on FTC only.

Si

[Front Seater]

So,
Lets have a look at the reasoning behind the Senior Service. Forgive the thick Pongo, but who exactly are they trying to retain and for what reason?
So all of the Lt Cdrs that had already reached their IPP before the 1 Apr 07 dont get the 'Senior Officer' FRI and those that are still Lts dont get anything at all now unless they manage to get promoted and selected for new commission (is that the inference with FTC - sorry not too sure what that is, but gather a permanent career shiney bum/exec profile) by Mar 10.
So a very specific target audience indeed by the RN for their 'Pinch Point'. Some have already blown it and are probably packing bags and others are nowhere near IPP or promotion - and as the junior joes on the Sqn will just stag on between Basra and Bastion.
Those left now enter the Big Brother House for promotion. On your marks, get set.... go! I can see the RN poster rubbing his hand with glee as those that want the dosh will now sell their souls for any job to get the right profile.
Dont get me wrong - there is obviously a plan there from the RN and at least it knows the age group, experience and type of people it wants to retain.
The AAC have done something very similar - or answer B!

[LFFC]

Just make sure that you know what this FRI means before you get carried away by the £££. You'll spend the 5 years return of service in a ground appointment!
We recognise the requirement to retain Career Stream Aircrew and welcome the intention that those taking the FRI should occupy Flying-Related posts.


For "Flying-Related", read "Ground Appointment"!

If you don't get further promotion and therefore decide to leave at the end of those 5 years, you'll find it much more difficult to enter the airlines aged 45ish with no recent flying experience.

Moreover, anyone hoping to get the new FRI in a couple of years time should remember what happened to the NCA FRI and not bank too heavily on getting it this time round.

Overall, the PA spine have a much better deal if you're on the new pension scheme as well. I think that's why the AFPRB said:


In recommending the FRI, we request annual updates on proposed work on pension arrangements between the Professional Aviator Pay Spine and the Career Stream, developing sustainable experience profiles, improving numbers through the training pipeline and a cost benefit analysis.


That's a terribly written sentence and I'm not quite sure what it means, but I think it hints that the AFPRB realise that making flying pay pensionable for everyone is the correct, long-term answer.

[Penbox]

Tube Launched, I am sure the figures you quote have something to do with the flap running through all AAC RHQ's today. JHC have requested a full and concise breakdown of Lynx pilots in the Corps. At least one of the regiments has included some guy's who are on AH LSN's to bolster their figures up a bit. Corrupt or what?

[MadAxeMan]

So is that the extra £50k at the end of the five years' commitment? Or £100k (minus tax and NI) up front? Must say, I agree D-IFFers; guys on staff college or in the boarding school trap will take the cash and be jolly happy. Nonetheless, given that Easy (for example) have reportedly suggested fast-track command for suitably qualified RAF chaps, with a salary of £75-80k plus the pension... is there a choice? Other than Virgin, ofcourse, who are hiring again..
While the FRI, @ £100k sounds like a lot of wonga, and might put a healthly dent in the mortgage; it really is not when factored over 5 (or 20/25) years.
As a Sqn Ldr (ME) Pilot, pondering the Stay/Go question, I have done a quick and dirty Cost/Benefit calc.
Here is a quick summary of my observations :8 :

If you go for the maximum commutation option (the only sensible choice), it does not matter when you leave, the gratuity amount is the same. So no advantage in staying.
As a mid term (4 year) Sqn Ldr, for the five years extra that you would serve, you lose £50k of pension payments with commutation, (or £65k without)!
So you're either £9k up (or £6k down), temporarily. So slightly up (or down).
If you decide to play the promotion / staff college gamble, and stay 5 years just to see, the cost of delaying (say Virgin Atl) Captaincy by 5 years will cost you £100k, plus about £5k per year before and after (10 to 15 years). Massive disadvantage in staying, if the gamble does not pay off.

All in all that is over £200k, so £300k before tax.
However, factoring in a 2% pension increase, standard (VA) pay-rises etc, this RFI breaks even at age 110, optomistic for many of us.

The RFI actually needs to be £400k (before Tax) in order to break even at aged 80, or £500k to break even at age 60.
'nough said :confused: .

In sum, the FRI is merely a sweetener for those who are intent in staying anyway. And good for you, you deserve it for putting up with the carp (bombs and bullets, lack of support from Govt, poor eqpt, waste and mediocre leadership) for another 5 (and probably 15) more years.
So, while a tough decision :mad: , I'm otta here in 300 days (150 for my last duty day, on that big white Gozome 747 :ok: )
MadAxeMan (>|<)

[BRASSEMUP]

PenBox, you you get your facts right..............:= That's not what the return was about! Anyway you don't hold a Lynx LSN, but it was all about finding out what all Lynx jocks are being employed as at the moment, if there not in current flying posts. Because yes there looks like a big shortage of Lynx jocks.

[brit bus driver]

AxeMan...thanks for doing the hard work for me! You beat me by 50 days or so...£59k in my bank account would be nice and could, in all likelihood, be doubled with a bit of a punt in the property market over 5 years. Even then, the prospect of an OOA and a couple of ground tours doesn't really excite. Never say never, but...

[Uncle Ginsters]

Well,
Given that we're all so undermanned, how about a radical pay reform:
Pay each Unit at its Planned Strength, then any undermanning means those doing the work get the difference as a bonus for their efforts. Sounds fair to me. :ugh:
Uncle G

[DaveyBoy]

Paying you a daily rate pro rata for any leave you lose should have broadly the same effect, with appropriate checks in place to ensure that people can't deliberately avoid taking leave.

[Melchett01]

Paying you a daily rate pro rata for any leave you lose should have broadly the same effect, with appropriate checks in place to ensure that people can't deliberately avoid taking leave.

I asked that specific question to the AFPRB a couple of years ago and was politley but firmly told by the Chairman that there was no chance of it happening because it would lead to weak management of leave.

I did turn that one round and ask what about those units deployed on ops where there is no chance of taking all their leave and where because of that the bosses are refusing all applications to carry over leave in excess of 10 days as there is no chance of taking it without impacting on unit efficiency. Again, firmly refused. Unfortunately, I know of units where it is still going on, and guys are losing leave through no fault of their own, just purely down to the length of time they are away (I wonder if that counts as weak management of leave by the high paid help :E ? I suspect not somehow).

It would be interesting to see just how much the MOD is saving / making through this policy. If it happened to me (may still yet - my application is in at the moment!) I would consider billing the MOD direct for my services for the leave I have lost / free labour they have gained.

[FJJP]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - Uncle G. How many times have you been told to stop thinking logically. I mean, that would actually be of benefit to someone, and we can't have that.

I remember once in my illustrious career qualifying for substitution pay. MOD fought tooth and nail to avoid paying until my then boss gave someone a blast. It got paid shortly afterwards [backdated].

Back to Uncle G's suggestion. Brilliant idea, but isn't there a teenzy weenzy chance they are using undermanning to SAVE money?

Only once did I ever hear that decisions ARE to be made to the benefit of the individual [CinC STC - can't remember which one, though].

[Uncle Ginsters]

But surely not FJJP:=

Did you not see Des Brooon on the Beeb this morning?? He said that the manpower and its welfare is the single most important thing!

How i laughed, along with the other 12 people left in the Forces :bored:

[Penbox]

Brassemup, Wow quite a response!.. The LSN I hold is completely immaterial and you don’t know what LSN, if any, that I hold. You are obviously in the know, so perhaps some honest accounting of personnel and expenditure is called for rather than jumping to the defence of those who should know better. It all comes out in the end!

[Melchett01]

DB - think we are both correct. All applications to carry over excess leave denied due to individuals not having enough time next leave year to take it. Oh yes and the blatant admission about it looking bad against the performance targets.

Rant on: It absolutely stinks. Of course, taking this approach will make people further up the food chain look good, but the high paid help in the ivory towers will just carry on regardless - "oh look there isn't a leave problem, nobody has carried over more than 15 days".

I wonder what the reaction would be if I sent them a bill for the days I couldn't take due to ops that they won't let me carry over? It might even be worth the one-way hats-on! I don't expect to get things for free when I employ contractors and the like to come into Melchett Towers; why the hell should the MOD expect its people to work for free. Rant off.

That feels a bit better.

[Ginseng]

Calm down old boy! One of the most important Performance Indicators is "Leave Lost" (untaken excess leave which is lost due to refusal of an application, or no application being made, to carry over). This is actually shown to your JPA Line Manager as an "average days per year" figure on your leave record. I presume it is there to "encourage" him/her in fulfilling his/her responsibility, as your manager, to try to ensure that you can take your leave. Not a full answer, I admit, and of little use if you spend two-thirds of the year on ops, but it is there!

Regards

Ginseng

[Melchett01]

Ginseng - let me guess, it's only an advert dear! :p

To be honest, I'm not so sure that they will bat an eyelid when it comes to the days lost on the leave record - the hierachy are taking the view that despite the op tempo, it is simply a case of mismanaging leave.

Well perhaps, but it is something of a kick in the teeth when you are forced to cancel pre-booked and auth'd leave because you have to do an unplanned short notice OOA to help out and are then told that you haven't managed your leave and will loose almost 3 weeks. And to then be told it is your fault .... it's just not on Sir :=

The bosses really aren't helping themselves with policies like this, and for many it may well end up being the final nail in the coffin. For the rest of us, it just means whatever good will we had left will be wiped out in a stroke, and we will play hardball to match the Execs gratuitously unfair behaviour - after all, how often do you see those that make the rules disappearing on a) ops or b) leave?:\

That said I had a chat with the Admin office about it this afternoon, and our very helpful Cpl passed on quite a useful tip - if only I'd known this earlier:

For those of you that don't realise (and until 1500 today, that included me!) POTL is valid for a year from when you get back off ops. If it looks like there is a chance of missing out on carrying over leave due the Boss wanting to look good, take annual leave rather than POTL when you get back of ops until you can be sure you won't bounce the 15 days carry over limit. Only then should, start on your POTL, which will be carried over automatically to the next leave year without being included in the 15 day limit. It's all a bit academic in my case, but hopefully this little snippet might be of some use to some of you out there.

[Fast but Safe]

Not too sure about your PODL idea Melchett. I came back from a 4month OOA and used 7 of the 9 days PODL. Yes it is valid for 1 year, like you say, but I lost the other 2 days 12 months after returning to the mainland. Admin mistake on my behalf, but I did lose it.

FbS

[Melchett01]

FBS,

That's what I said, POTL is valid for a year after returning from ops. If you don't take your POTL within the 12 months, you will have a hard time arguing your corner, but if you know the rules for POTL, you can play the system perfectly legally to ensure that you don't lose any annual leave and you get your POTL.

So for example, you return from 4 months OOA in Jan 07 and have 9 days POTL on top of say 29 days remaining annual leave (you've been away lots). You basically have 2 months to get your leave down to 15 days carry over or risk losing it.

In this case, there is no point in taking your POTL (as I found out today) because it is valid until Jan 08 and wouldn't feature in any excess leave calculations at the end of the leave year in Mar/Apr. Instead, you take 14 days annual leave to get you down to the 15 day carry over limit where you won't lose any, and only once you have reached that point start eating into the POTL which you can take at any point until Jan 08. And there you have it, system played, you get time off after ops, use annual leave that you might otherwise lose and carry over 24 days annual leave AND POTL

Simple really in hindsight, but I wonder how many people - as I said, myself included, are/were not aware of the POTL rules and are faced with losing leave because they took POTL rather than annual leave when they came back off ops? Until today, this is the first time that the whole POTL thing had been explained properly. However, I am now wondering whether you can change things retrospectively - ie get the Sqn clerks to add your POTL back to your leave record and take off an equivalent amount of annual leave - I suspect not, but it may be worth a try if you have taken POTL instead of annual leave and are now faced with losing days. Like I said, if the Execs want to play hard rules, then I will do everything I can to play the system and exploit loopholes. Will give it a bash and keep you posted.

[Ginseng]

The clerks are going to love you, suggesting that one with just one day left before JPA goes of the air for 2 weeks! Good idea though.

Seriously though, I think you are being hard on your "Execs", whoever they are, by suggesting that they won't let you carry over your excess untaken leave in order to "make themselves look good". The very fact that you will be shown as having lost leave should have just the opposite affect, since it suggests poor leave management, even if that isn't fair. These guys don't make the leave rules. They are bound by JSP 760, which says, in effect, that they can only authorise carry-over of excess untaken leave if there is a reasonable chance of it being taken in the next leave year and that it could not have been taken this year for service reasons. In practice, that means that you have to have booked the leave and had it cancelled, with certification that the cancellation was for service reasons. We all tend to do ourselves no favours by planning leave when we know we are going to be free to take it, whereas the sure-fire way around this problem is to book it for when you want to take it, and then cancel it when you have to. Any Exec worth his salt should understand this and should have no problem with approving your application and then cancelling it. As you say, play the system!

Regards

Ginseng

[Melchett01]

In practice, that means that you have to have booked the leave and had it cancelled, with certification that the cancellation was for service reasons. We all tend to do ourselves no favours by planning leave when we know we are going to be free to take it, whereas the sure-fire way around this problem is to book it for when you want to take it, and then cancel it when you have to

Ginseng - that is the nub of the problem and what has got me riled. I did have leave booked last for Jul/Aug and was then told in late Jun I was going away on a short notice OOA at the start of Jul. My leave was cancelled and the appropriate paperwork signed off by the 2i/c certifying the cancellation was due to service reasons. That it has now been thrown back as my poor leave management is the real kick in the teeth and is what has got my back up.

By playing the "you won't have time to take excess leave so we won't approve it card" how much of our time - collectively as a service - are the MOD getting out of us? I would love to see what that actually comes out as a total. As I said in an earlier post, I would love to send a bill into Handbrake House and watch the fireworks, but failing that, then I will try my POTL/AL re-adjustment plan and see what happens!

[WokkaCrewman]

To the Right Honourable Mister Brown.
Sir, please accept my deepest thanks for your more than generous pay award of 3.37%. My wife was equally ecstatic at your splendid example of generousity towards the faithful servants of HER MAJESTY's Armed Forces. I can know spend the next 6 months of this year in Afghanistan, being shot at every time I go flying, recovering the maimed and wounded of our Forces' finest and coping with the shortfalls of manpower and equipment, knowing in my heart that you truly appreciate the selfless sacrifice shown by every member of the Royal Navy, Army and Air Force. In fact, only the other day, Mr Taleban, in awe of your power and dedication to the British Armed Forces, promised to try harder to hit the tiny little plate on my body armour! In short Sir your offer has made me realise just how lucky I am. To the point where I have now decided that it would be selfish of me to hog my career and, being a selfless kind of chap, should leave the Service to allow some other young fellow to enjoy the benefits of todays modern Forces. But your efforts should not go unrewarded. No Sir, I think you should recieve what you deserve, namely being dragged through the streets of London by wild horses until your flesh is rended from your bones.
Anyhoo, been nice knowing you all!
Adios!:ugh:

[Fast but Safe]

Wokka, a very bold statement. If it wasn't for the 'dragging through the streets' comment, I'd be 100% behind you. But overall you have my backing mate. I too am in a heads or tails situation and I'm getting sick of how we're being treated.

If anyone is thinking the British armed forces, internationally known as the most professional in the world, are being treated as an average workforce, then you are right. If you are also thinking that things will not get much better in the foreseeable future, then you are sadly correct too.

Brown, when he takes over from Blair, is going to streamline the armed forces to a level unknown in the modern military world. And what does it come down to in the end? Morale. It's plane and simple. I have never ever been bothered about going OOA and doing things which maybe be a ball ache, but taken as part of the job. If we are going to be in the dust and dirt for over 10years (quoted from an American 3star in theater), then I fear for the worst.

Retention of key workers must be a priority and not just concentrated on aircrew. As someone who makes sure that the actual frames can get off the ground, I feel like I have been overlooked and swept aside by the powers that be. If I put the time in and got my life sorted by doing my licenses, then I'd be out in the sun working with a big grin on my face.

What I'm trying to say is... If the guys and girls are not looked after they will leave. Many many people who have put their hearts and soles into the military have done a runner because it was messing up their life.

If some of you read this and put it down to a basic whinge, then have another think. In 5years time, when we're still in Afg and god knows where else, do you think the morale will be better or worse? Anyone with a few brain cells will know the answer. I am a true patriot of this country and have never doubted my loyalty to my place of birth. This is the first time I have seriously thought about getting out, moving to another country and starting a fresh life, it's very sad but true.

Glad I got this off my chest, now I can enjoy a few beers and laughs with my mates!

FbS