Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)

[MBJ]

This is really a carry over from TC's medical thread which veered onto this subject. Last year I wrote to my MP about this and he passed on the reply from Sir Roy McNulty, Chairman of the CAA.

I offer a brief quote, "I must therefore advise you that we are not prepared to extend licence privileges beyond those in current legislation unless or until we are given a clear indication that we will be required to do so in the future"

In my words then, "The CAA will do what the Government orders them to do, but the Government will do what the CAA advises them". Nice circular Catch 22! I know, let's do nothing, its easier!

Here is a link to the CAA website that is of interest to all of us beyond the first flush of youth!

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20Discrimination%20and%20Aviation%20Legislation.pdf

If the link doesn't work go into www.caa.co.uk and search using "age discrimination"

In my view if you can pass the medical, what's the prob?

[verticalhold]

Sadly BJ as an industry we have let ourselves down. We are facing a desperate shortage of experience but rather than band together and make a serious attack on the situation via BHAB and BALPA we have watched one or two individuals such as Uncle Ian put their heads above the parapet and then sat back and waited for a result.

At any meeting of operators these days the cry of where are the next generation and can we keep the old guys going is the most frequently heard sound.

The next generation are being stymied by the sheer cost of the qualifications and don't yet have the experience for the job.

The old guys who have all the experience are now falling off the perch at a scary rate of knots and our beloved CAA seem to be ignoring the potential safety problems. Maybe they see it as a way to finally close us down and get rid of the problem that way.

If a pilot can pass the medical and all his checks then he is as far as I'm concerned fit to fly single pilot public transport. At this firm we have lost three first class freelancers to public transport this year due to age. Strange how they still pass the meds, still pass the checks and are still allowed to fly the aircraft owners privately over the same landscape they were flying over last year.

The CAA and BHAB are paid for by us, the operators. Perhaps its time we decided they are past it and paid someone else to regulate and represent us.

Knowing my luck by the time I'm due to go retirement will have gone up to seventy.

[SASless]

Don't you just love the CAA clinging to arbitrary regulations.....resulting from their "discretionary powers"?

They will quickly point out the presence of "waivers" to the rule or regulation but then immediately tell you that is not their policy (granting waivers as set forth in the rule/regulation).

Bottom line....to make any changes requires some Jobsworth to make a decision that can be tracked back to him and thus be held accountable for having made that decision.

It is far easier for them to point at the rule, reg, or memo and smile and say "Nope! No...have to follow the rule here!"

There are Offshore pilots in their mid-70's and who have had hip replacements still flying in the Gulf of Mexico. As long as they can fog mirrors and toddle to the aircraft and remember how to find home and pass a class II medical exam....they are good to go in the FAA system.

[Thomas coupling]

I think I'm right in the belief that BHAB are looking into this...I'll raise it at the next emergency services sub committee next month.

What we are looking at here is the emergence of a ground swell of activity against this discrimination. Hopefully it will develop its own momentum to be able to successfully challenge what we will look back on as plainly an illegal practice.

[Whirlygig]

Bottom line....to make any changes requires some Jobsworth to make a decision that can be tracked back to him and thus be held accountable for having made that decision.


Nail/hammer interface scenario!

The whole of the Public Sector is petrified of making a decision. Everyone is scared of being sued or being seen to be partisan. Every decision has to go through reports, presentations, sub-committees (Lawd help yer Thomas!), main committees by which time the purpose of the initial proposal has suddenly been lost.

The CAA like to try to think they operate like Private Sector commercial organisation but they are still a Quango and still suffer from the immovable machinery mentality that existed from the days of being within the Civil Service.

The watchword that all these Quangos is scared of is DIVERSITY. That's the key. I'm not being facile either.

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorfossil]

Ifr you want an example of lack of logic in the system, how about this: Being over 65 I can't fly public transport any more, but to examine for a commercial skills test, I have to maintain a commercial licence and (expensively) a class one medical. This when the guy in the other seat is by definition already a qualified pilot and could fly the helicopter if I keeled over.

[Fareastdriver]

Rotorfossil thinks it's illogical. When I reached 65 I got myself an Australian licence to continue flying in the Far East. The company I am working for are bringing a British registered aircraft in for a short term contract. They would like me to fly it but I can't on my British licence because I am over 65. If they rubbed out the G reg and replaced it with a VH reg then I could fly the same aircraft with the same passengers over the same route with no trouble at all.

[John Eacott]

FAA to propose pilot retirement age change from 60 to 65


WASHINGTON, D.C. — Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today announced that the FAA will propose to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S. commercial pilots from 60 to 65. Speaking before pilots and aviation experts at the National Press Club, Blakey said that the agency plans to propose adopting the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that allows one pilot to be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60.
The FAA plans to issue a formal Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) later this year and will publish a final rule after careful consideration of all public comments, as required by law.
“A pilot’s experience counts — it’s an added margin of safety,” said Blakey. “Foreign airlines have demonstrated that experienced pilots in good health can fly beyond age 60 without compromising safety.”
On September 27, 2006, Administrator Blakey established a group of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new ICAO standard and determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule. The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) did not reach a consensus recommendation but did provide detailed insight and analysis that will be helpful as the FAA develops a rule.
Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November 2006, ICAO, the United Nations’ aviation organization, increased the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that the other pilot is under age 60.
The November 29, 2006 Age 60 ARC report, appendices, and public comments are available online at http://dms.dot.gov (http://dms.dot.gov/), docket number 26139.
(FAA Release No. AOC 03-07 January 30, 2007)

Maybe there's light at the end of a loooooooong tunnel?

[skadi]

Maybe there's light at the end of a loooooooong tunnel?


...but they are talking of Multipilot-operation only, whats about all the Single-Pilots????

skadi

[Thomas coupling]

Exactly, this is the FAA catching up with the rest of the world for a change!!

What about single pilot commercial flying age limits???

[handysnaks]

I read all this, agreed and decided to get in on the No 10 e-petition
bandwagon

Link: Single Pilot age limit (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SinglePilotAge/)


So come on then, lets be having you.....

[Droopy]

Done, though my enthusiasm for 12 hr night shifts at 64 3/4 is somewhat diminished...

[ambidextrous]

Hi,
I've read your petition, why stop at age 65? Any age limit in my view is discriminatory. Pilots & not just pilots, should be free to retire when they wish to do so, not when forced to do so by the bureaucracy. However, I think you're going to continue to lose on this one because I suspect the Insurance Industry will drive the premiums up if over 65 pilots continue to fly public transport?
with fraternal greetings, ambi

[handysnaks]

Stopping at 65 because every other professional pilot has to! (in UK anyway)

Droopy, I'm not sure I'll want to shuffle out to the ac when I'm gone 60 either. I'm also not sure whether the Observers will look after my zimmer frame properly. i just want the right to!:O

[John Eacott]

I quite agree: 65 is just as discriminatory as 60 :=

Re word the petition to remove any age limit, otherwise it won't have any credence with the Bureaucrats: they will be able to bin it without any trouble at all :ouch:

[Whirlybird]

I've signed it.

I think when I'm 64 1/2 I'll be a lot happier tootling around doing short pleasure flights than teaching autorotations to cackhanded students twice my size who seem determined to kill us...and that's legal now!

Yes, any age discrimination should be outlawed, but let's start somewhere.

[Bertie Thruster]

Thanks for setting this up Handy. Name added!

Do coach and bus drivers have any 60+ limits?

[Thomas coupling]

Excellent and very constructive idea Andy - well done and thanks.

I will spread the word through the BHAB, PEUG and local networking from my end.

My worry continues to be:

The only people who will suffer from this are those commercial pilots (single) in charter/some corporate/emergency services. That's it!
No-one else is affected.
That must amount to, what....300 pilots, if that.

Is this enough to change legislation.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

TC,

They once altered UK legislation to allow Sikhs the permission to ride motorbikes without Helmets, now there aint many of those people compared with the rest of us Brits,

Vfr
Peter R-B:D

[topendtorque]

"They once altered UK legislation to allow Sikhs the permission to ride motorbikes without Helmets, now there aint many of those people compared with the rest of us Brits,"

that could be read as being very effective legislation!!!:ugh:

[Whirlygig]

The only people who will suffer from this are those commercial pilots (single) in charter/some corporate/emergency services. That's it!
No-one else is affected.
That must amount to, what....300 pilots, if that.
Although I don't have any figures, I would have thought that there are more than 300 pilots in single pilot operations if you take into account fixed wing. But surely, the age 60 rule affects anyone who is under that age since none of us can say what will happen in the future and the airline pilots who thinks they're OK because they operate in a multi-crew environment might not think if, for some reason, they are made redundant and want/need to go back to single crew.

Cheers

Whirls

[Xavier Dosh]

Vfr PilotPB/2 –

Perhaps we should clarify that you can be Sikh and British!

You make a very valid point though!

I find it slightly inconsistent that employers are being told that they cannot discriminate against an individual because of their age. In addition to that, you are no longer required, or obliged, to put your D.O.B on your C.V! An yet – perfectly healthy, competent Air Crew are being told that they can no longer earn a living by doing what they have done for the last ‘x’ amount of years, whilst being told that they are going to have to work longer??

Bus/Coach drivers are not required to stop working at 60 or 65! It is until such time as their medical expires. I would suggest that the principle is the same. A bus driver can transport 50, 60 or 70 school children on his/her bus at any age – why should it be any different for a pilot?

We’re all agreed – but I wonder how long it will take change this rule?

I would suggest that 300 pilots is a conservative estimate too.

XD

[Whirlygig]

What is even more inconsistent is that the pilot who has reached age 60 and cannot pilot, say, a Jet Ranger on a pleasure flight, can be an instructor.

If someone is deemed fit enough to be an instructor, why can't they undertake PT work? The rules are nonsensical and inconsistent within themselves let alone the contradiction with the new "ageism" legislation.

Cheers

Whirls

[Xavier Dosh]

Whirls,

You're right!! Very well said!!

I know of a commercial pilot who is about to have to stop doing his day job, because he has reached 60. A couple of months ago he did his 22 rating and will now do a bit of instructing so that he is not out of the aviation environment, which he enjoys so much and of course to bring in some extra income.

I suppose we can take some comfort from knowing that the people that do make the rules up are consistently inconsistent?!

Like MBJ says - if you can pass the medical, what's the problem?!

XD

[Bertie Thruster]

........ at last the safety of pilots to age 65 for public transport operations has been ratified by ICAO and agreed in UK by the CAA..........

.......so its now the obligation of UK employers to provide the means to do this (dual controls fitted and another pilot under 60) for their age 60 pilots, otherwise the employers will fall foul of the EU age discrimination law!

[Whirlygig]

I assume that an instructor (aged, say 63) can teach a student (aged, say 67)?

Barking mad rules!

A 60 year old cannot fly a BBC cameraman on a filming flight but, if that cameraman were an employee of the operator, then he can?! So, in addition to all the other bonkers inconsistencies, the employment status of the passenger makes a difference :ugh:

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

Whirls,

As I said recently on another thread, since when has aviation law had anything whatsoever to do with logic?

[Whirlygig]

I know love, but it irritates me when something isn't logical. :8

Just as an aside, the legal maximum age for a Company Secretary of a plc is 70; just thought you'd all like to know that!

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorfossil]

I don't have a problem with age limits if based on scientific and statistical evidence. What annoys me particularly is the inconsistencies. No you can't fly public transport after 65. Yes you can instruct newby pilots who have never been in an aircraft before (whats the difference from paying passengers?). Yes you can examine pilots for their commercial licences but you have to maintain a Class One medical with the extra expenses like stress ECG's at about £400 a throw. Yes you can examine commercial and private pilots for their recurrent LPC's (licence proficiency checks) and renewals. No you can't examine commercial pilots for their OPC's (which have the same content). Why not? Because one is under Schedule 8 (licensing) and the other comes under Schedule 9 (public transport) of the ANO.
Subside into corner muttering and sucking thum.

[cyclicmick]

Having had my 'sod off' letter from Jobsworth have signed Andy's petition. Many thanks Andy.

[DennisK]

Dennis K will be rolling on to 75 next October.

I've held a class one since 1972 and a Royal Air Force medical for a few years before that. Every three years I'm off to LGW for my 'stress ECG' which they like to call 'an exercise ECG' these days. As I said to the lady last time. "I sweat more on a fast run down to my local pub!"

I'm an ex 4min 16 sec miler and anyone out there over 50 want to run alongside me over a mile tomorrow.

In 2002 I took part in the world freestyle championships and did so again in 2005. I'm legal to fly with an 'ab initio' student, but not legal to take punters to Silverstone. I plan to take part in the 2008 world champiohips and wouldn't it be great to be the oldest guy in the world to win a world championship event.

All this to really say. Hold a class one medical, (stress ecg et al) remain competent in the air and let me exercise the priviledges of my ATPL.

Dreaming.

DRK

[Whirlybird]

What is this stress ECG thingy?

[Thomas coupling]

Dennis - everyone knows you are unique old boy. A genuine 1 percentile as they say in the medical world. How can any normal pleb hold a candle to you?
May you still have many fruitful flights to come.:D

As you go onto say - you could be flying next to an ab initio pilot of say 17 and decide to pop your clogs on his second trip...what then perchance?

A 60 yr old these days is the 1950's equivalent of a 75 yr old (then). The system is still 20+ yrs behind.

I have received an e-mail from the CAA today telling me they have re convened a workgroup to look once more at the retirement age for single pilot commercial ops. Let's hope that this new generation CAA understands that we are now in the 21st century and things have moved on somewhat.

Whirly - to jump the gun perhaps, a stress ECG is done whilst on a running machine where the platform tilts to simulate an incline. This is the ultimate ECG test to determine that if anything is going bang, it will happen then! They have to have a trauma team on standby in case the old ticker goes into cardiac arrest! But it is a very routine test nowadays for anyone who needs to be checked out by the CAA thoroughly for ticker flicker!!!

I presume Dennis that something has come up on previous ECG's and this is their safety net?

[DennisK]

Thanks TC ... for the nice comments. Hope I can live up to them !! (the clogs are always waiting!)

I'm told that current policy is to stress ECG all the 'over 70s. I'm naturally happy with that cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet !

Second topic perhaps.

I'm about to do a piece for Loop on UK medivac helis. Any contributions on the ideal machine for the task ?

DRK

[Nigel Osborn]

I've had to do a stress ECG each year for the past 9. It takes between 9 & 12 minutes depending on what your heart is doing, hopefully still ticking! I'm glad to see that Dennis is still older than me but unfortunately he sounds a lot fitter! At least in Oz, CASA is not so tough on us oldies & believe if we are healthy enough, then we are good enough.:)

Coming to think of it as I did my first flying medical in Oct 1954, I'm still happy that nearly 53 years later, I can still pass it. It's just that I don't remember how!:ok:

[Whirlygig]

cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet !
Dying at 1500 ft shouldn't be too bad; it's the dying at 0 ft which is more of a trial!

Cheers

Whirls

[Thomas coupling]

No disrespect Dennis, but I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it??
Why don't you throw the offer out generally on here, you'd get some excellent snippets for your contribution.
By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term.
Light twin: EC135 [flies 2 patients, reliable and maintenance is minimal.].
Medium: S76.
PS: Patients don't like aerobatics...OK:=

[Biggles_in_Oz]

The 'CEO of the cockpit' has an view at http://www.avweb.com/news/ceocockpit/194397-1.html

I can understand why, in the light of long previous experience that the current system can change, (ie. a captain at age 60 does not suddenly become unsafe overnight), but I can also sympathise with the feelings of a future captain who suddenly sees their promotion date extend by possibly another 5 years.

[skadi]

Thomas Coupling wrote:
By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term.



I just know the term medevac, it comes from medical evacuation and is used in the military SAR, p. e. as C/S prefix like RESCUE xxx.

skadi

[Whirlybird]

I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it??

Magazine editors ask people they know. They ask people who they're sure can write well, who can write stuff that's interesting for the reader, and who can send the number of words requested, and send them on time. If you can do all of those things AND know your subject really well, contact any editor and tell them - they'll be delighted to hear from you.

[DennisK]

Whirly B has it right ..... Aviation journalism is about writing words the punters want to read. Getting the subject matter right is simply research.

So as I endeavour to draw myself away from day to day flying, I'm entering the news industry as a wordsmith, and very enjoyable it is too.

Flying a couple of classic Westlands, a few days with an Istanbul Medivac operation, (A 109 Grand) and another day scheduled for the Blue Eagles team.

So a plug for my employer. LOOP is now into its 17th edition and its free ... just log on to www.loop.aero

Regards to all. (70 plus and putting up with it !)

DRK

[tomotomp]

you can now add your name to the Downing Street petition at :-
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SinglePilotAge
:ok: :ok:

[What Limits]

Only 179 signatories - I am sure we can do better than that.
Just received word on the BALPA position..........not interested. They state that the various Authorities have based their position on a safety consideration.
I challenge any Authority to produce valid evidence to support their case for discrimination.

Another thing that we could do is to write to the various Authorities and politicians that support this discriminatory position. Calling all super wordsmiths: please write a letter for all of us to cut, paste and send.

[What Limits]

Now over 200 !!

Read the list - truly the great and the good of aviation!

Keep it going, nothing is going to happen if we slacken off the pressure.

[Rushes]

I would emplore all '20-something' pilots to sign up. The appropriate authorities may just have got their preverbial fingers out by the time you reach that landmark age, and you may benefit!

[anjouan]

Why is it a good thing? It just helps younger pilots get a foot in the ladder also to be forced to retire at 60, at a time when the country in general is moving towards retiring later. Then they too, will have to rely on earning more for a shorter time to be able to retire earlier than the general population.

[wheelbarrow]

This comment about retiring pilots early to let others move up is total toss. Lets not stop at pilots, sack everybody at 60. Let others get on in life too.

[996]

I know of an old knacker who for the year I was unfortunate to know, did not once climb the Ac to inspect the MRH etc simply because he couldn't! How the hell he managed his medical beats me. Ok that might be a minority, but is it?
I gave up of my own volition some years ago, there is more to life and more to do when you loose the fear...............
:ok:

[DennisK]

Hi everyone,

Most interesting to read our controller's viewpoint, although being on the wrong side of the 'over 60' fence, I can't agree.

Surely the major consideration, especially in the pilot training role, is to be able to bring our experience to the youngsters. Just today, while doing some trial lessons for Elite Helis at Goodwood, I met a super young un. It's so good to see the new pilots moving ahead in the industry, which is something the experienced lads can help with.

The fact remains, that I still feel as fit as I have ever felt, and it is sad I can't put my experience back into helicopters. But having said that, I know of too many 60 plus customers who have popped their clogs with little warning. So putting the hat of wisdom back on, I suppose there has to be some cut off point. Anyone out there want to fly with me when I'm a hundred !!

Pass me my zimmer !

Dennis K

[Whirlybird]

Dennis,

If you can still pass a medical when you're 100, I'd be honoured to fly with you, and why not? You can pass on the benefit of all you know now...plus more than another 25 years of experience. Give me one good reason why anyone shouldn't want to fly with you then?

[R1Tamer]

At 38 and still trying to get the first break into a paid rotary flying position I've happily signed this petition. When I do eventually get that break I'd like to have at least a good twenty five years in the industry to try and pay off all my training costs (continuing health allowing). I'm afraid controller I'm not on board wth your theory that kicking the sixty year olds out will generate more jobs for us younger pups. Far from it - it seems to me the jobs are there to be had now if one can get the experience - unfortunately getting that experience is also going to take me twenty five years to pay back off.

It seems to me that the CAA is a shambles and anything we can do to shake out some of the crap has to be worth undertaking.

R1tamer

[DennisK]

Whirly B .... Thanks for your kind comments. I shall slumber more easily tonight with dreams of female company as I break the 100 barrier. Ah ... sweet dreams !

DRK

[Bertie Thruster]

Dont knock everyone in the CAA. The CAA medical chaps were happy to go for age 60-65 single pilot;

"The UK had proposed that single pilot operations for those aged 60 – 65 years should be acceptable, subject to a cardiovascular review to include an exercise treadmill test at age 60 and 63 years. Although accepted by the LSST(M) (Licensing Sub-Sectorial Team (Medical)), the Licensing Sectorial Team (LST) decided to postpone a decision until the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) had completed its consultation process on the maximum age for professional pilots. "

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=4764

[Whirlygig]

It's experience and insurance requirements that are holding younger pilots back, not vacancies.

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlygig]

I'm not forgetting anything! For example, if the police requirement is for 1,500 hours, then it's 1,500 hours and has nothing to do with age.

I doubt there are many unemployed pilots with that level of hours under their belt (and if they are unemployed, it's probably because of attitude problems) so requiring pilots to retire earlier than the rest of the workforce (as is the current situation) will not help those who do not have the experience or aptitude.

Retirement ages will not affect the rotary employment marketplace. There are too many other considerations (e.g. IR as has been touched upon) for maintenance of the status quo to alter the current situation.

It has often been mooted that there is a shortage of suitably qualified and experience pilots anyway and I do know of North Sea pilots who are staying on as co-pilots past 60 because they are needed but would quite like to retire.

In order to change the employment market, there has to be changes in the way operators train pilots and insurance impositions that are laid down.

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

Whether there are or are not jobs for younger pilots is a different issue. Concerning over-60 single pilot ops, the ONLY relevant issue is one of safety. It has never been proved that passing a 60th birthday in and of itself makes a pilot unsafe. Therefore if he/she is able to pass a medical, they should be able to continue flying. The CAA medical bods realise it, and so should everyone else.

This argument about forcing people to retire so that younger people can get jobs crops up frequently in every field of employment, not just aviation. Of course ways of getting younger people jobs would be nice. But you don't do it by kicking out those with most knowledge and experience. "Sorry mate, you've had your job long enough; maybe you want it and your employer wants to keep you, and you're better at it than I am, but I want a job and I want it now, not in ten years time"....sorry, but where's the logic in that? And as someone who became a helicopter pilot rather late in life, I don't want to give up what I've worked for to someone younger...purely on account of age. Why should I? Especially as, like Dennis K, I'm fitter than many people half my age, and plan to stay that way.

60+ pilots need to be able to continue to fly if they want to. New pilots OF ANY AGE need a toe up the ladder. But these are totally SEPARATE issues, so lets not muddy the waters by trying to mix them.
(OK, Dennis, it's a date then :ok: ;) )

[verticalhold]

Whirlybird;

Wisdom as usual from you. There are two very seperate issues here. There is little that the onshore market can do to help with experience requirements for pilots, but the retirement issue is one where we should stand firm. The recruitment situation is becoming desperate. Insurers put huge experience requirements on pilots, and the customers are learning, sadly from past experience that they want lots of hours and IR's. The onshore industry can't afford the training costs and needs to extend retirement so that the newer pilots have the chance to build hours and gain qualifications.

There is no attempt to keep youngsters out and to keep old mates in. It is simple economics. To sponsor someone through an IR is going to cost 35-40 thousand pounds, The onshore market doesn't have that money in it's training budget, at least none of the companies I speak to have.

You are right. There is a very dangerous risk of muddying the waters here.

[Rushes]

There is a phrase that seems to have been doing the rounds since Pontious was a pilot.......'There is a mushroom shape to the age in aviation, there are many experienced pilots about to retire and the industry is crying out for younger pilots to start moving through'.......or something very similar... the essence is there.

I have heard this for many years, people I have met along the way who were at the time wishing to break into commercial rotary aviation have quoted that or something similar to me, having heard it themselves at a training school, seminar or read it in a publication.

I think those endeavouring to get that break (R1 Tamer) sometimes find the wait frustrating, though I do get the impression that the North Sea market has been more active recently, and i guess those without any ties have found a move to this sector more straight forward. There will be those however, who through personal circumstance are not able to relocate so easily and are thus more limited with their choice.

I guess more frustrating (possibly to the employer and customer alike) is the ever widening void of experience that seems to be appearing in the onshore market as not only the hours and experience, but also ratings and IR's seem to become ever more expensive and further out of reach to the self-funded individual.

I agree with Vertical Hold, it is this gap that is becoming harder to bridge and desparatly so, is the pay and scheduling in the offshore market that good that people are comfortably off and staying there in the offshore environment?... As V Hold says, onshore companies can't afford to provide people with these ratings and this experience.

On the note of age discrimination..... it being the separate topic that it is, if you can pass your medicals, however frequently they are set, then you should be able to fly public transport, at least to bring this industry inline with many others.

[Xavier Dosh]

Hi guys & girls,

Well, I’ve signed the petition and would encourage everyone to sign it. I genuinely hope that we are able to make a difference and change the legislation.

This is my take/response to some of the previous posts

Whirlybird – you’re comments at the top of the page do add a well balanced response to some of our previous posts. Very well said indeed!

Thecontroller - I don’t agree that commercial pilots should be made to stop flying at 60. The point about making way for youngsters doesn’t stack with me and I’m afraid I can’t see anything good about it.

I have the pleasure of working with inexperienced CPL’s who have self financed the majority (if not all) of their training and have made significant financial commitment to get where they are now. I also work with very experienced CPL’s who were fortunate enough to learn to fly helicopters in the forces. We need both! It is hugely important that new talent comes into the market and I’m sure we’re all agreed on that. I think that the balance more recently is very good. I enjoy seeing/hearing the more junior pilots enthusing about some of the flying that they have been doing and likewise we benefit from having the experienced pilots to pass on their wisdom.

The onshore helicopter charter market in the U.K has lost some hugely experienced pilots over the last 2/3 years and is likely to lose a few more over the next 4/5 years. It is not appropriate, in any industry, that individuals who reach 60 are simply presented with a fait a comply!

Just one more point on qualifications etc… I agree that operators are becoming increasingly keen to employ pilots with an I/R. However, this is not entirely because the operator needs you to have an I/R. If they operate single engine aircraft or even VFR twins – then there is no requirement for an I/R. You can get some very good experience flying single engine Day/VFR helicopters and then progress. If you would like to fly IFR squirrels or A109s etc – then you ought to have an I/R. There’s no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft of vice-versa. If the demand is now for, two engines, two pilots and IFR capability – then the supply needs to accommodate this requirement.

But you can’t kick the senior boys/girls out just because they’re now 60 +

XD

[DennisK]

Just to say to Whirlybird and Xavier Dosh .... really well said.

If only the industry could persuade the legislators to take note and update this daft age rule. I'd happily trot up to LGW every month IF I could fly PT again.

I remember .... oh so well .... dropping my last load of PAX at Silverstone in 1993, knowing it was the last occasion I'd be doing that. I think my first was in 1973 when there was no helipad or R/T ! I suppose I almost shed a tear.

But seriously, in spite of the extra years, I feel I'm as safe a pilot now as ever. Just as long as my ticker knows it too !

Dennis K

[Thomas coupling]

Is it me, or is it my age lately :O
The issue here is: AGE DISCRIMINATION,

nothing more and nothing less.

This diversion about whether one is fit or not is accepted as a compulsory requirement and has never been an issue.

Skills shortage / moving over for younger ones - never heard that before :hmm:

The poll on the government web site and most other actions being carried out are about winning the case on the subject of age discrimination. The discrimination being that if one flies a multi crew a/c one can fly for an additional 5 years because of their age, that's all.

The other issues are interesting and in themselves may have kudos but don't get side tracked on this one.:eek:

[Xavier Dosh]

Hey TC,

That is exactly what we have all been talking about. It’s just that some (me in particular) are keen to perhaps add a bit of background as to why we feel that age is not relevant to being a competent or safe pilot….

I think that’s fair enough isn’t it?

XD
:ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

In 2005 The CAA medical licencing team had no problem with the concept of national single pilot PT work to age 65 (subject to some extra tests) and publically stated so, (but then the CAA bosses waited for the ICAO decision on international flights)

Medics happy but bosses not sounds like age discrimination to me.

[Uncle Greg]

I have been in correspondance with the SRG ref single pilot over 60. I attach a copy of my last letter that may be of interest. I believe that the points that I raise are self explanatory.




Dear Mr Bell,

Single pilot over 60.

Thank you for your SS107 dated the 1st of November. I am sorry not to have contacted you earlier, but being semi-retired can be time consuming hard work!

Despite the power of Google the only reference I can find to the Chicago Convention is the original document, I cannot find Annex 1.

I note that the review carried out by ECAC was, as you state, over 15 years ago. Since then there have been considerable advances in the ability of medical science to conduct non-invasive testing. This provides an extra element of safety available from aircrew medical examinations. In my own experience my SAM has had at least two updates to his electic cardiogram equipment in that time. There still remains scope for the depth of investigation at an aircrew medical to be increased by, for example, requiring a stress ECG. Until all reasonable non-invasive procedures have been exhausted it is unreasonable to restrict a pilot due to age.

I believe that the data used to evaluate the age limits imposed is based on a fixed wing case, where, in the event of a pilot suffering an in flight medical incapacity, flight has to be continued for a considerable time to a suitable place of landing and then the pilot has to carry out what is the most stressful phase of the flight, the landing itself.

In considering the combination of different types of flight, flight conditions and flying machines it would appear too difficult to not treat them as one for regulatory purposes. Of fixed wing/rotary wing, day/night, on shore/off, shore IMC/VMC only two categories exist with regard to crew incapacity. In the case of all of them except rotary wing, day, VFR, onshore flight has to be continued to a suitable place of landing. In the case of rotary wing, day, onshore, VFR a landing can be affected almost immediately should the pilot suffer the effect of incapacity? For a helicopter such a landing is a relatively non-stressful event. There clearly is a quantum difference in the risk associated with these two cases thus making it not unreasonable for helicopters day VFR onshore to be considered as a separate case.

Clearly any age discrimination legislation has to be overruled if there is an overriding safety issue. It is the responsibility of any regulatory authority that wishes to overrule age discrimination legislation to have the necessary documented safety analysis to show that this is the case.

Under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act can you please provide me with the documented risk analyses that you have conducted that shows that there is an overriding safety case for not allowing a pilot to fly single pilot day VFR onshore in a helicopter?

In considering the risk associated with an individual pilot all factors relating to that individual have to be considered together. Even if there is an increase in risk associated with a pilot over the age of 60, that pilot’s age reduces the risks associated with inexperience or lack of maturity. I am sure that you have the relevant statistics that allow a comparison between age and human factors accidents that would support this.

There is already a built in safeguard to reduce the overall risk to the public for pilots flying single pilot, in that there is a weight limit on the flying machine that can be flown single pilot. This in itself restricts the overall risk to a relatively very small number of flights thus the overall risk to the public would remain very small even if the age limit were raised.

Yours faithfully,

[Snarlie]

Any attempt to extend the working envelope of the experienced pilot has to be a positive step towards enhancing safety and allowing the up and coming more time to consolidate. It must not be construed as a blockage preventing the advancement of the young thrusters. It will give the old salts the option of continuing to put something into the business they have been involved in for so long. Some, I know, will be only to glad to escape the likes of JimL and his cronies who, for so long, have struggled to trailblaze the CAA in Europe as the leading aviation authority at the expense of the small operator and the individual. By all means, lean on the BHAB to become more vociferous but do not expect any help from the CAA, their agenda was sealed many years ago with the drafting of many of the most nonsensical chapters of JAROPS.

[uncle ian]

The CAA will not budge unless challenged in the Courts and it is almost certain they will appeal any decision against them to the European Court level.

I have every intention of taking this to Court and am discussing with legal advisors the best route to take; e.g. could be Industrial Tribunal or judicial review.

What is certain is that funding such action is beyond my personal means. I am exploring various ways of funding legal action and may be fortunate enough to find a charity such as Age Concern (believe me it wasn't easy to ask them!) to help or, perhaps legal aid may be available.

The time may come when I have to ask those of us most affected to put their hands in their pockest to help. If there realy are 300 pilots out there likely to be affected £100 from each would go a long way to paying the costs.

If you're with me on this why not say so here ( no obligation obviously). It'll be far more effective than signing the petition (not that we shouldn't all do so; and all write to our MP).

It is just possible that the CAA, seeing that they have a fight on their hands that will cost them real money may take proper legal advice from an independant source and see that they cannot win this in the long run.

Go on, then. Commit to helping fund legal action against age discrimination by the CAA by saying so on this thread.

Thanks

Uncle Ian

[verticalhold]

Ian;

Check your PM's. At least you are well preserved, enhanced, pickled!

VH

[uncle ian]

Verticalhold,

Thanks for your support but the whole point is to make that support public on this forum. It'll have more effect than any petition if people make it clear they are prepared to fork out real money to fight the CAA on this.

[verticalhold]

Point taken Ian,

Both bosses and I will support you for the £ 100 each, and the your post has gone round all our freelancers some of who make you look as youthful as me:ok:

J

[Whirlygig]

Uncle Ian,

You have my support and, should you require accounting assistance, my services as an ACA are also available.

Cheers

Whirls

[Xavier Dosh]

I'm in!

I'll give Uncle Ian £100.00

XD

[wassatboing?]

I,m in for £100. Good luck Uncle Ian
wassatboing?

[Thomas coupling]

Can anyone help me to upload a link to a pdf file which relates to this thread, please?

[DennisK]

I am well outside any conceivable age change, but herewith my £100 pledge to see the wrong - righted.

DRK

[uncle ian]

Thanks for all those pledges guys and gals.

Can I ask you all to try to persuade all your contempories to sign up and publish teir support here? Anyone in their 50's ought to be supporting this.

Uncle Ian

[verticalhold]

'50s!!!!! Cheeky sod! I've got another 5 years to go to that!

[uncle ian]

Sorry, Verticalhold! Appearances can be deceptive...................anyway I should have written anyone over 40! The last 20 years have gone that quickly I've hardly noticed. Time flies when you're having fun.

[chris_h]

Ian, my £100 is available when you need it.

[Whirlygig]

Sorry, Verticalhold! Appearances can be deceptive...................

Uncle Ian, when you're in a hole, stop digging! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[verticalhold]

My appearance does deceive. I'm looking bloody old today.

Uncle Ian; going to try and get this bought up at BHAB on Wednesday

Regards

J

[uncle ian]

Thanks for the advice, Whirlygig. Verticalhold and I go back far enough that no insult can hurt that much so have no fear on that score.

As a frequent and very well respected, albeit rather young, contributor to this forum who has already kindly expressed support for the cause of the eldery may I ask you to encourage your many friends to add their support and, above all, to keep this thread alive and on the front page. Anything to help maintain the momentum!

Thanks,

Uncle Ian

[Pandalet]

I'm well over 20 years off my 50s (or is that 50 years off my 20s?), but I'll definately contribute what I can when the time comes.

Perhaps worth starting an "I'll contribute £X to a legal defence fund if necessary" petition, like the No2ID chaps did a year or so back?

[MBJ]

Ian, I know you're planning a trip to the Bahamas, but I'm in for £100

[cyclicmick]

Might be a bit late for me but I'm in for £100 - Good luck Ian

[Francis Frogbound]

Another hundred here Ian. Give 'em hell!

[SHortshaft]

Ian,

I will pledge GBP 100 to the cause.

A victory against the CAA over this matter would have significance to many pilots worldwide whose regulatory authorities look towards the CAA for leadership.

If the CAA was to remove the age limit in UK many other countries would follow; maybe not immediately but they would follow.

[Thomas coupling]

The subject was raised at BHAB on the 26/2.
Two pilots have managed a chat with their MP's (Cameron and Lembic) and they have been told that the matter will be taken fwd for discussion at one of their party meetings.
One pilot has informed the CAA that he intends to turn up for work after his 60th birthday (imminent) and it is up to the CAA to remove him from post??
Lord Glenarthur is chairing a deputisation to the DTI.
The BHAB chairman is talking to a rep from the parliamentary aviation committee.
Lots of activity on our behalf and sincere thanks to all for their strenuous efforts.
The message is though: write to your MP. They are duty bound to respond within a certain time frame. It is only with this added impetus that we can keep the ball rolling.
For the armchair supporters out there, I have summarised the entire issue in lay speak so that the MP can get his/her head around what we are on about.
Add this master reference to your own personal short, polite (:) covering letter AND POST IT TO YOUR MP....please?
What have you got to lose?
many thanks.
Here is the master reference:
http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Master%20age%20discrimination%20reference.pdf
Thanks to John Eacott for hosting the link.

[Mr_G_Box]

I' ve £100 for the cause.

[Atters]

for me it is less than 6 months, to stand down(the big 60) Why not 61,62, or 63. Ah 60 is a nice round number. Where is all the evidence that gives someone the right to stop me earning a living and supporting my family in the manner we have worked so hard to achieve.
A great many of us gave most of our years to the military and receive a pittance of a pension in return.
The CAA are made up of military experienced pilots who have ensured that their final salary pension will keep them comfortable, and hell no, they have no desire to go past 60.
The pension contribution and salary for the majority of single pilot rotary, has in general, until recently, been appaulling. Most ex-military reaching 60 need to get the extra few years in to boost their pension.
With the correct medical checks(As thorough as the CAA wish)there is no need for that 60 restriction. I will not go as far as to say that it should be unrestricted. These days 60 is not what it was. Every year extra allowed makes a huge difference to the quality of life after retirement.

Though it is too late to help me. I will willingly contribute £100 to help fight this descrimination. (Tell me were to send it.)

Flying Lawyer often gives good advice, If he has advice to offer that can help keep the costs down; I am sure he would make a lot of old farts now and in the future very grateful.

[uncle ian]

Thanks to all the new pledges. I'll only call them in when the funds are definately needed and I will set up a system to ensure the money goes where it's intended.

Certainly writing to your MP is a good idea. I wrote to mine over a year ago and he corresponded with the dept for transport to the point of impasse. Cameron may be taking the cause up following a meeting I had with him some few months ago (he had no choice......I was flying him!) and he urged me to have a constituent write to him wich I did.

I do believe that the promise of legal action made public and funded through this forum will concentrate the minds of those who interpret the law from the bridge of the Belgrano to look again. So spread the word among your friends.

Uncle Ian

[pedroalpha]

Thomas coupling,

you may wish to add Germany to the list of those countries that accept single pilot commercial operations beyond age 60.

I was advised by a German colleague at HeliExpo on Sunday that Germany has recently changed its National regulation to comply with the age discrimination law. I believe that there was a court case.

Good luck all.

[Flingingwings]

Uncle Ian,

There's £100 here also when you need it

[rotorknight]

I can stop at 58 and for my part I would like them to make it 55

[TripleC]

Count me in for £100. I am in ABZ but could be working much closer to home in Yorkshire if it wasn't for this daft legislation. Andy, I didn't think you were that old! Worn well!

[handysnaks]

If that's you Stu
and you mean me
I'm not:p
.
If it's not you
or you don't mean me
disregard!!!:rolleyes:

[TripleC]

Hi Andy, No it's Clive Chandler formerly of BIH, PAS and Scotia. My kindest regards to all the 'Blue Lighters' out there. Time we scrapped the anonimity on this forum anyway.

[handysnaks]

Hello Clive, it was your profile that made me think it might be S M!!
I don't think I'm too anonymous anyway:O

[TripleC]

True Andy, even I worked it out - years of Telegraph crosswords I think!!!! As a matter of interest Scotia are employing 60yr+ contractors as I type. £450 a day but with 1 week's notice. I've been a short term contractor for 18 months now. How short term is that? You can boost that by 8.5% in the first year by forming a company and registering for the the 'Flat Rate' VAT scheme = £90,000pa gross. Watch out for IR35 though and Corporation Tax. It means that you have no job security, no 'Bells & Whistles' (Pension, PHI, Loss of Licence etc), you are employed as a co-pilot but are paid more than the most senior captain! Funny old world.

[uncle ian]

Pledges to support legal action have slowed a little but we have passed £2000.

I won't be there myself this year but if anyone interested is going to Cheltenham I'd be grateful if they could spread the word, get pledges and, above all, get those pledges posted here.

My solicitors are advising a two pronged attack:- i) Industrial Tribunal where the CAA have a case to answer as license issuers even though they are not employers. ii) Judicial Revue which is self explanatory and is heard in the High Court.

For both I need expert medical opinion and Councel's opinion in order to have the best chance of winning. It is possible that if both are encouraging it will be possible to get help funding action in the High Court.

Whirligig, you offerd you accountancy expertise earlier; would you, perhaps, agree to be fundholder for this money when it materialises? It may give comfort to those who like the concept but don't know if I can be trusted not to run off with it.

Uncle Ian

[Whirlygig]

So we can both run off with it together eh?

No problem! I would recommend a separate bank account with two signatories. Depending on how our “pledgors” feel, I would not be able to audit the fund if I was a signatory – that is, if it is felt appropriate and/or necessary to have the accounts audited. This would, of course, be free of charge.

I would be more than happy to be a signatory and, if an audit was felt appropriate, I’m sure I can sweet talk (i.e. bribe) a colleague into doing it.

I’m quite prepared to pop over from The North Folk to The South Folk!

Cheers

Whirls

[griffothefog]

Just checked the birth certificate.. what a shocker!! Would like to help the cause if possible with some humble tax-free cash if it goes all the way. Thought this sort of thing would never effect me, but 12 years is starting to cut it fine. Good luck to you all and safe flying.:ok:

[uncle ian]

Thanks Griffo,

You're absolutely right, 12 years will pass in the blink of an eye. I hope you can help persuade all your colleagues in that bracket that they should help the cause by pledging some money to the fightinf fund.

I'm working out some details with whirlygig about administering any donations in a transparently honest way and will post the details, probably under a new thread, shortly.

Uncle Ian

[Helinut]

Great Uncle,

You can count me in too. The deadline seems to be approaching me at Vne

Helinut

[Whirlygig]

A little 59-year-old birdie tells me that there will be an article in The Thunderer (aka The Times) next week about said case.

I'll post the link when it becomes available.

Cheers

Whirls

[thekite]

I have a fair bit of feedback on my own age - related problems in Australia.

Check on D&G reporting points, under Class 1 medical.

I had my Class 1 medical lifted some years ago, despite never having had an symptom which DID NOT come from a computer.
All I want to do now is instruct. I have done the North Sea, rounded up the cows, bombed the bushfire. Let some teenager do that now. I am happy just to teach said teenager how.

Australian CASA have restored my Class one in an unusable form, "With or as Copilot." They say the student is the copilot.

Problem is they also require the student/copilot to be endorsed on type. That cuts out about 90% of the training required.

[Phil Aked]

Hey MBJ - Why not come out to sunny Australia!!!:ok:

[Mr Toad]

Hi Phil,

So wots the limit in OZ?

Rupert.

[Whirlygig]

The Times article about pilot age discrimiation will be in the Saturday edition. I'm hoping it will be in the online version so that I don't have to give any more money to Rupert Murdoch than I have to!

Cheers

Whirls

[uncle ian]

Actually it appeared on Monday and not in every edition. No controlling editorial policy I'm afraid.

As a result there should be an interview on BBC Breakfast, probably tomorrow (wedensday 11 april). I hope this will raise the profile of this issue and persuade the CAA that they need to look at their position a bit more carefully.

Uncle Ian

[Helinut]

Ian,

Have tried searching for it on the Times Online. Do you have the headline or other prompt that would help the search engine?

Helinut

[uncle ian]

It has not been uploaded for some reason. I'm trying to change that!

[Bertie Thruster]

I wonder if the CAA medics have changed their position of 2 years ago?.......



"The UK had proposed that single pilot operations for those aged 60 – 65 years should be acceptable, subject to a cardiovascular review to include an exercise treadmill test at age 60 and 63 years. Although accepted by the LSST(M) (Licensing Sub-Sectorial Team (Medical)), the Licensing Sectorial Team (LST) decided to postpone a decision until the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) had completed its consultation process on the maximum age for professional pilots."

[Whirlygig]

On BBC breakfast tomorrow morning, at around 06:45 I believe, there should be a piece about Uncle Ian's case.

The more exposure this issue gets, the better!

Cheers

Whirls

[gizmocat]

Not sure if it will be repeated on the news, but it was transmitted at about 06:20 BST.

[Qualityman]

Best of luck Ian,
Good to see you are still fighting the good fight in which ever corner presents itself! :D
And you looked ever so smart on the Beeb this morning, not your usual uniform eh? :)

CAA:ugh:

Paul Curtis.

[uncle ian]

Obviously borrowed the uniform, well spotted.
Also, for those interested, the Times have now put the article that appeared in Monday's paper (that's Easter Monday 9th April) on to TimesOnline.
The reason I'm making this fight public is twofold; a) for moral support which I'm getting plenty of and thanks for that, and b) for financial support. I can't hope to fund any action that goes to the High Court or beyond entirely alone. Quite a few of you have pledged £100 (some more) to help when the time comes; I hate to ask but I need more pledgers to assure my lawyers that I can pay their bill so, please chaps (and chapesses), say here that you'll stump up the readies and tell the people who don't pprune what's going on. For non-subscribers to this site I have set up [email protected] to take pledges. Whirlygig has agreed to handle any money so that you can be sure none of it will stick to my grubby mits on the way through.
Thanks,
Ian Evans

[kissmysquirrel]

I understand your fight for being able to continue in a profession so many of us love, but I think the problem you would have with suport here is one where the up and coming guys only get a chance at moving up when the older people retire (forced or not).
I know there is a lot of experience out there with the 'older' generation, but it's not an argument really. There are a lot of experienced 30+ year olds too. It would be interesting to see how many people starting out or say in their
20's, would support the 60+yr old members to continue flying.

Is it a case do you think that the over 60's continue in the profession because of money and didn't manage to put enough away for retirement, or because they love what they do?

[What Limits]

The point of it all is that at the moment it is a case of blatant discrimination with no evidence to support compulsory retirement on the basis of age.

Along with many others I plan to retire at 60 and have made appropriate provision for doing so. What I want is the right to work beyond 60 in my chosen profession should I choose to do so.

Clearly this would not be happening if it was based on race, ethnicity or sexual orientation. Perhaps being white, english and protestant is not helping my claim.

Rant over.

I pledge to the fight, 1 years worth of subscriptions to BALPA, if they refuse to support our claim.

[uncle ian]

Kissmysquirrel,

What Limits makes the point better than I. I would add that, in common with many workers who do not enjoy a "final salary", "index linked" pension, retirement now would leave me struggling if I did not have alternatives to rely on. That is precisely why the government is encouraging everyone except pilots to retire later!

Have you asked any employers in the industry where they will replace my generation of pilots from? There is plenty of room for the younger guys who can do the job but there is a very real shortage of pilots of any age which worsens year by year.

[Helinut]

Link to the Times Online Article
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1637181.ece

[Flying Lawyer]

kissmysquirrel It would be interesting to see how many people starting out or say in their 20's, would support the 60+yr old members to continue flying. I suppose it depends if they think only of themselves, and think only in the short term - overlooking that they too will one day be 60.

Please forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but I have a recollection from previous posts that you're not enthusiastic about helping beginners either, because nobody helped you. (IIRC, you paid for your own qualifications from your earnings as a merchant seaman.)
If that's not you, I apologise in advance.


Surely the test of whether we help others, or fight against unfairness, isn't (or shouldn't be) whether we get some personal benefit?

FL

(Petition signed.)

[John Eacott]

So wots the limit in OZ?

CAR1988 5.126:


5.126 Commercial (helicopter) pilot: requirements if over 60 years old
(1) A commercial (helicopter) pilot who is at least 60 years old must not
fly as pilot in command of a helicopter:
(a) that is engaged in commercial operations; and
(b) that is carrying passengers.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(1A) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a commercial (helicopter) pilot if:
(a) the pilot flies a helicopter:
(i) that is fitted with fully functioning dual controls; and
(ii) that has an operating crew that includes a qualified pilot who is not the pilot in command; or
(b) in the case of a pilot who is less than 65 years old—within the period of 1 year immediately before the day of the proposed flight the pilot has satisfactorily completed a helicopter proficiency check or a helicopter flight review; or
(c) in the case of a pilot who is at least 65 years old—within the period of 6 months immediately before the day of the proposed flight the pilot has satisfactorily completed a helicopter proficiency check or a helicopter flight review.
(3) In this regulation:
qualified pilot means a commercial (helicopter) pilot or an air transport (helicopter) pilot who:
(a) holds a command endorsement for the helicopter; and
(b) if an activity for which a flight crew rating is required is to be carried out during the flight—holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that authorises him or her to carry out the activity as pilot in command of the helicopter; and
(c) either:
(i) is less than 60 years old; or
(ii) satisfies the requirements of paragraph (2) (b) or (c).

[Flaxton Flyer]

Nice work on the telly Ian. My £100 is waiting if you need it.

FF

[John Eacott]

Just further to our CAR's, the interpretation put on our "over 60" rule is that there is no restriction when flying what we refer to as "aerial work" (filming, photography, fire fighting, sling loads, etc) as they do not carry "passengers". All on board must be essential to the operation, and therefore crew, not pax.

For passenger carrying ops, ie Charter, as long as you have an annual proficiency test 60 - 65, or a six monthly proficiency test once past 65, you can legally fly pax without a sub 60 co-pilot. Even Nigel can keep flying :ok:

[kissmysquirrel]

Flying Lawyer, I am one of the first people to help out those begining in this industry. I have regularly gone out of my way in the past to help ppl's and newbie cpl's gain hours/jobs etc. I have even managed to help a regular contributor on Rotorheads to gain employment not too long ago. I didn't have to do this but I do it because if I feel someone isn't taking the p%%s, and they have a love for flying, then I can give something back. I know my previous posts may have indicated that my personality was 'anti' everything and everyone, but it is only really an online persona (i think).

As for the 60 year limit on commercial flying, well I agree that it's discrimination when the government want people to work longer in life, but only certain sectors it would seem.

It just isn't fair to have one rule for one and not for all. Don't get me wrong, I was only trying to create discussion, not put people down for wanting to continue flying. On the contrary. I hope to fly for as long as I possibly can.

ps, I hope Heliport can see i'm keeping my promise and behaving! ;)

[Heliport]

kms

Is that really you? :confused:
You're mellowing in your old age. :)

Heliport

[Whirlybird]

kms has always been a nice guy really. He just doesn't want anyone on PPRuNe to know it. ;)

[Nigel Osborn]

Ref JE'S post, will anyone give me a job then???????:rolleyes:

[kissmysquirrel]

Thanks for that Whirly, but just don't tell everyone!

Heliport, I think it is probably age!:eek:



Hope I get to fly for more than another 22 years!

[cyclicmick]

Uncle Ian
I have tonight been informed that my long awaited audience with my MP is tomorrow (Sat) evening. (After complaining about the wait he is coming to my house!). Is there any other point, other than the obvious, that you might like me to put to him on our collective (excuse the pun) behalf.
Regards and keep up the good work albeit a tad late for me I think
Mick
PS: See you at AOM's next golf day!

[Mr Toad]

Australian CARs:

Thanks John. Looks like there's hope for the likes of Nigel and me yet...

Kissmysquirrel, I realise you're all heart really. Fact is, unless a helicopter pilot is born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he's unlikey to have access to a huge pension (index-linked). Our companies are never stable and their assets, profits and pension funds are easy prey to asset strippers. We ourselves are often not the best of money managers either (honourable exceptions, Whirly).. We usually NEED to fly, and if younger pilots can't get a command where they are, they can go elsewhere can't they? What's the point of an ATPL/IR if you won't pack your bags and move on?

Furthermore, not only do we old farts still like our flying but we're just as good at it as those half our age. Our experience is greatly enhanced (if not enriched) by flying in different parts of the world in totally different roles in our constant search for hire and reward. So long as we can pass our base checks and medicals we can still contribute to the profession.

'nuff ranting. Good luck Uncle Ian.

[Flingingwings]

Blimey KMS............

Bromide in the water in your neck of the woods:confused:
This new 'mellow' must be helping your blood pressure!

Heliport - what are the odds on KMS being back on old form by Xmas. Thats got to be worth a flutter and better odds then my Grand National efforts earlier :E

[DennisK]

Hi all you fellow OAPs.

Another pennorth for the pot.

Last week I duly visited LGW for my 'Stress ECG' which is apparently now to be known as an 'Exercise ECG'

The kindly reception doctor took me gently through the briefing, by telling me that once over 60, the average male has a 1% chance of a heart attack every year, hence the ECG requirement. However, he probably raised my blood pressure a tad, by also telling me that if I tested 'positive' (didn't think I was up for an HIV check !) I'd be leaving the office without a licence.

But following a failure, we can then opt for a more rigorous test involving blood colour injections and some radioactive treatment testing. Apparently this higher test standard is a more accurate indication of forthcoming heart trouble. But it will cost you a whisker under a grand sterling.

Being fairly fit, I was delighted to waltz through the standard nine minutes. and left with my ticket (and ticker!) still intact. But the odd thing is I'm now cleared for another four years ! So I ask myself what happened to the 1% per annum possibility.

Anyway, I'd like to re-affirm my financial offer to Ian, and bless you Ian for the effort on behalf of we COFs and the old uns in our industry.

PS Any of the HEMS confined area picture situations produced by an 'over sixty' ?

Take care all,


Dennis Kenyon.

[What Limits]

Dennis,

The picture situations are unlikely in England as the upper age limit for HEMS pilots is 60. Having said that, as Virgin HEMS flies with two pilots (IIRC) then they will be able to fly above and beyond this limit.

[Whirlygig]

I'm sure Uncle Ian won't mind me saying this (especially as it went out live on National TV!) but today was his 60th birthday and therefore, the first day on which he cannot fly single pilot PT for remuneration.

So, Happy Birthday Ian. :ok: :D

But this is the point where things should start moving.

Cheers

Whirls

[wassatboing?]

The one in Henley town centre was flown by a 57 and a half year old.

[wassatboing?]

Uncle Ian
Any joy with your exemption to continue until the result of the litigation?
Happy Birthday!
Ian Ridley

[verticalhold]

Uncle Ian;

Happy birthday for the other day. Thought you did bloody well on the telly and I'm delighted your tourettes stayed under control!!!!!!!!

VH

[swordfling]

Belated Happy Birthday (and good luck with the case) Uncle Ian!

I'm a 20something PPL(H) and although I have no current plans to go commercial, I may want the option in the future and if I do, I want to be able to fly so long as I can pass a medical and flight tests, regardless of age. So, I've joined the 411 who have so far signed the petition at the time of writing.

The recent death of Neville Duke (aged 85, who reportedly collapsed just after landing as he left his aircraft and died some hours later) reminded me of an airline pilot I know of, who died suddenly just before a flight, not long after a medical, and it made me think...

A medical only really represents your state of health at the time it's done. So what's the decreasing interval between medicals with age based on, and how valid is the whole thing? Is there enough scientific understanding of potential indicators, or is it that people are just statistically more likely to die the older they get?

[John Farley]

I have just signed the petiotion.

I have not studied every post so apologies if the point has been made before but it has to be easier to dump a chopper on the surface at VERY short notice than say a fixed wing GA type let alone a FW passenger transport type certificated for single crew.

[uncle ian]

I took myself off to foreign climes for my birthday to avoid surprise parties and inappropriate jokes!

Now I'm back thanks to all of you who wished me well in my absence.

Now the magic date is passed we can commence legal action. I applied for an exemption to the age 60 rule today. I'll keep you posted. Does anyone else fancy asking for an exemption? If we do get the rules changed and you have suffered an decrease in income in the meantime you will have a much stronger case for compensation from the CAA if an exemption has been refused.

Ian Evans

[DennisK]

"Is it too late for Uncle Dennis here at 74 ???? -!!!!!"

Good luck Ian and just to re-affirm my standard donation to the fund when it is wanted.

DRK

[wassatboing?]

Yes Uncle Ian, I will give it a go. Any advice on wording?
Best of luck
Ian

[uncle ian]

This is a new one so it's not like asking for, for example, a rule 5 exemption.

I've said something like "Until the issue of age discrimination has been determined in Court my position is ambiguous. This will have a severely detrimental effect on my life, career and income. Accordingly I request an exemption to the prohibition to conduct single pilot public transport operations contained in Part A Section 1 Sub-Section 1 (2) (3) (e) of Sschedule 8 of the ANO 2005 in accordance with your discretion under Section 153 of the ANO."

But you may wish to consult a lawyer first.

Good luck

[thekite]

Just to give closure on my contribution re Australian Class 1 medical; dated 31 March 07:

CASA have confirmed that I can instruct, but only to pilots who are already endorsed on type.

So why the hell would they need me?

I also hold a British ATPL, so can relate to you guys, who are rudely grounded at 60. I'm 66, so I suppose that I am lucky to be off the ground at all!

But off the ground I still am, test flying as required after maintenance, helicopters that I have assembled as a LAME.

Plus I can instruct in my ultralights, aerobat my syndicate's YAK 52, and go sailplaning in the club's Blanik. Plus, I have a kit Mosquito helicopter due in 2-3 months (read 6), to build and fly, so perhaps life is not so bad....:ok:

thekite (Did I mention riding the Harley to the airstrip?)

[cyclicmick]

Uncle Ian,
Have just received a letter from my MP, post his visit to my home earlier this month and, at his request, a detailed follow up letter from me, and he confirms that he has written to Douglas Alexander (Sec of State for Transport) and Robert Sturdy MEP, asking them both to review the matter.
Regards
MH
PS: Uncle Ian please check your PM

[Anotherflapoperator]

Dear Uncle Ian and the rest of you old codgers who still enjoy the best job there is, the very best of luck in your case. I've signed up to the petition, and if funds are needed, I'm in too. All that and I'm only 38 as well!

Happy Birthday Uncle!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Petition signed. Good luck:ok:

[RVR800]

Signed

RV

[Bittern]

Dear Brother Ian (I'm 59 so thought 'Uncle' was inappropriate)

Well done and I hope that the CAA concur. You have my pledge for £100.

At my ACM last week my AME suggested that, if necessary, some extra tests one of which involves a treadmill could be done for 60+. If successful, it would give the chance of a cardio-vascular episode at .6% which is rather less than average for the next lower age group.

I wish to continue flying HEMS if at all possible and plan to continue instructing anyway. As has been said many times already, we should be allowed to work providing that we are fit & competent beyond a limit that in this day & age is somewhat arbitrary.

Good Luck

[Oracle]

I am told by an infomed authority that discussions have already taken place within ICAO/FAA/JAA/CAA to increase the mandatory retirement age for PT/CAT pilots to 70 years of age.

Plank pilots over 40 on twin-pilot aircraft no longer have to do (or shortly will not have to) a bi-annual medical, but may revert to once a year probing!

One hopes that this will induce a sensible response from the CAA for we venerable helicopter chappies, enabling even the most knackered, yet stil pulsating veteran to operate a commercial helicopter single-pilot or as PIC until the age of 65 and then until 70 with another Captain to ensure his pace-maker battery is charged!

[SmokinHole]

Isn't that missing the point?

Surely a forced retirement at any age is discrimination?

[Oracle]

Sorry, I was talking about those of us who are not still peeing about with broadswords at the age of 70, - or even thinking about such things! Personally at least by 75 I want to be on my own wee yacht d
somewhere off Turkey enticing teenage eastern european crewmembers on board.............

[Whirlygig]

....by 75 I want to be on my own wee yacht d
somewhere off Turkey enticing teenage eastern european crewmembers on board....

That reminds me of someone. Now. Who could it be! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[uncle ian]

I do hope you don't mean me, Whirls!

[uncle ian]

An old friend of mine asked me today how he could help my fight with the CAA over age limits........"why don't you look for financial help through PPrune" he said! (He's a regular reader/subscriber).

So I thought I'd better start a new thread for those who never bothered to read "Age Discrimination......" , and, frankly, who could blame you?

My lawyers have just filed papers with the Industrial Tribunal regarding the CAA's policy of not reviewing the regulations preventing single pilot public transport operations for pilots aged 60 to 65. We argue that such a policy amounts to Age Discrimination, unlawful since the end of last year.

The Industrial tribunal is the least expensive route to justice in this instance and I have rejected a judicial review in the High Court as the costs are not just high but unpredictable. In common with most helicopter pilots I am rolling in money and don't really need to work (ask anyone who knows me) but even I can't commit an unlimited amount. Even the Industrial Tribunal can be expensive if you're not on legal aid (to which I am not, apparently, entitled being such a rich b*****d).

Thus far some 30 odd people have pledged to give me £100 (some more) towards my costs on the grounds that many will benefit when I win. I anticipate the costs will rise to between £8k and£10k if there is no appeal. Of course I'm prepared to meet much of these costs but I would appreciate a bit more help. The money will be handled by Whirlygig of this site who has accountancy qualifications so you can be sure I'll not run off to the Bahamas with it as some unkind soul who shall remain nameless, mbj, proposed.

I won't ask for it until I know I need it but it would be very helpful if you could pledge that sum now. If you don't subscrbe to PPrune you can do the same on [email protected] .

I'm told this case will not be heard for 3 to 6 months; that'll be a bit fast for the CAA to deal with but for me it's months of good flying time wasted. You can pledge now safe in the knowledge I won't come calling until you've had time to save up!

Looking forward to some helpful responses.

Ian Evans

[Brilliant Stuff]

Though I still have 30 years to go I am more than happy to pledge £100. :ok::ok::ok::ok:

Thank you for fighting our collective corner.

[Bertie Thruster]

Hi Ian, Thanks for getting started on this. :ok:

I was hoping that BALPA were going to take a lead on this....but the vibes from BALPA HQ are not good.

Last straw there for me was finding that the email stream, on age 60+ pilots, passing around BALPA HQ is labelled "OAP's" :(

Please accept my £100 pledge to you.

Regards, BT

[smile 412]

U.S. Airline Pilots Now Support Age-65 Retirement (Update3)

By John Hughes
May 24 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. airline pilots' largest union now supports lifting their retirement age to 65, ending almost three decades of opposition and boosting prospects for quicker government action to change the current quit-at-60 rule.
Today's shift by the 60,000-member Air Line Pilots Association ``absolutely'' will speed passage of legislation in Congress to implement an age-65 standard, said Paul Emens, a Southwest Airlines Co. pilot seeking the age change.
``This should bring walls tumbling down,'' Emens, chairman of Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination, said in an interview. ``ALPA has been the primary opposition to change. Now basically all pilots are pushing in the same direction.''
The biggest victors in the vote by the union's executive board are Southwest and JetBlue Airways Corp., which pushed for a higher retirement age more aggressively than rivals. The two airlines don't have defined-benefit pension plans, which get more expensive to maintain as employees stay on the job longer.
The Federal Aviation Administration, which set the age-60 rule in 1959 for safety reasons, has concluded that there is no medical justification for that standard. FAA chief Marion Blakey said Jan. 30 the agency will raise the retirement age to 65 in a rule-making process that may take two years or more.
Pilots getting closer to age 60 want Congress to make the change, saying it can act faster. The Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee approved an age-65 rule on May 16 as part of a four-year, $65 billion proposal to finance the FAA.
`Time Has Come'
``This is an idea whose time has come,'' said Bill Voss, chief executive officer of the non-profit Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Virginia. ``People are living longer. Our ability to monitor medical conditions is improving.''
Until today, ALPA's stance favored younger pilots, who viewed the age-60 retirement rule as helping their chances for promotion. Many older pilots sought to fly longer, including some who lost retirement benefits in airline bankruptcies.
The Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization, which recommends global air-safety regulations, adopted a standard that pilots should be allowed to fly to age 65 as long as the other pilot in the cockpit is younger than 60.
That standard took effect Nov. 23, and older pilots on foreign airlines have been able to fly in U.S. skies since then, if allowed by their carriers and governments. The FAA and Senate proposal mimic the international standard.
Pilots' union members as recently as November reaffirmed their opposition to a higher retirement age. All four voting union members on an FAA study panel supported age 60. The panel couldn't reach an agreement on whether to change the age.
Help, Not Fight
Since then, Blakey announced the change and the Senate committee voted. In a statement today, the union said it decided to help shape the way the retirement change is implemented rather than continue to fight the move.
``Pilots will be fully engaged,'' union President John Prater said in the statement. ``Any legislative or regulatory change needs to address ALPA's priorities.''
The union said its executive board voted 80 percent in favor of making the age change. The Washington-based union had fought a higher retirement age for 27 years.
About 200 pilots retire every month that the age-60 rule remains in place, Emens said.
To contact the reporter on this story: John Hughes in Washington [email protected] ([email protected]) .
Last Updated: May 24, 2007 16:55 EDT

[JimL]

Flungdung,

I think you have to see this in context; the ICAO Standard has been retirement of pilots at 60 for CAT; most States enshrined this Standard in their regulations.

For a number of good reasons, there was a move - led by Europe - to have this raised. One mitigation was that only one of two crew members could be over 60 - i.e. it applied to "as or with".

The discussion on this thread is slightly different as it proposes removing the limitation for single-pilot CAT; to my knowledge this has not received wide debate - frankly because it would only apply to a limited population.

You should also see this debate in the context of the difference in the accident record between the Airlines and General Aviation; this can be one order or, depending where you take the measurement, two orders of magnitude.

I support the proposal but recognise that, in the general run of aviation, we are a very small community without much clout.

Jim

[Thomas coupling]

Sorry for the delay Ian, other things on my mind! But count me in for £100.

[ANOrak]

Dear Uncle Ian,
Just to confirm my email, as someone who qualified for Saga membership some 10 and a bit years ago, I am pledging £500 to this excellent cause. I am immensely grateful to you for getting off your ar*se and doing something that we all should have done ages ago :D and I hope other likeminded (well similarly aged anyway) commercially licensed pilots will feel the same and up the ante with a pledge of more than the £100.
Good luck
ANOrak

[Twiddle]

£100 from me when you need it.

I've just found out that somebody I know is 60 tomorrow and therefore can only fly with another CPL beside him (even given the fact that he's got over 11,000 hours and the guy who'll be sitting beside him has 5 on type....)

[uncle ian]

Thanks for all the latest pledges. I reckon there's about £4000 in the fighting fund now. Hard to say what the final bill will be and that, of course, may depend on appeals and so on but I'm budgeting for £10,000 at the moment.

At the risk of sounding ungrateful and anticipationg spending at least £4,000 of my own money would all you guys and girls who have pledged already think of any friends who haven't but might if pressed............go on, please.

Ian Evans

[JerryG]

Hullo Uncle Ian
In an effort to keep this thread on Page One..... and after having yet another birthday last week (do they come more than once a year now?) I happily pledge my GBP100. (I would use a pounds sign if I could find one on my Aussie laptop!).
Count up the percentage of us that went to Athens together, only three years ago, whose combined experience is thrown on the scrap heap under current rules. It's a travesty.
Thank you for your efforts on behalf of us all.
JerryG

[Banjo24]

Hi Ian,

Although still a youngster at only 38 I am behind you all the way as who knows what the future brings and where we may be in the years to come. Count me in for £200 and I have let Whirly have the contact details. :ok:

Mike

[Kalif]

Ian,
I'm up for £100 towards the fighting fund.

[verticalhold]

Uncle Ian;

After our chat at Silverstone over the weekend any chance you could update the situation on here. Lets keep this thread to the top of the list so people know where to come with their £ 100 donations.

For a man forced into retirement you are looking remarkably fit by the way:ok:

VH

[dunnarunna]

I'm in the whip-round too.

Cheers:ok:

[Beamish Boy]

Uncle Ian, we have met through heli-telly work and I know that you, and other excellent pilots have been denied the right to fly me and my crap equipment around various sporting events!

You have my £100 pledge!

Beamish Boy

[uncle ian]

I've been off the internet for a while due to a change of location and some poor planning!

Thank you to the people who have pledged their help in the meantime including JerryG,TOT, Banjo, Beamish boy, Dunnarunna, Kalif and ANOrak.

WE have filed our legal papers, the CAA have responded (Leaving it to the last possible moment........thanks chaps), a meeting of lawyers pre-hearing to discuss technicalities is due this week so I expect a hearing date in the next couple of months.

I intend to get as much publicity for this as I can with Press, TV and radio so if anybody has access to editors of any of the media, let me know, please.

Ian Evans

[uncle ian]

The "Case Management Meeting" for the Age Discrimination hearing has taken place.

The CAA have argued that this is matter of great significance to them (funny how they have been trying to fob me off to other goverment departments and use whatever tactics they could to ignore my questions about this for the past four years) and they need to bring so many expert witnesses to prove how dangerous it is to allow anyone over 60 to fly public transport that the case needs to be allocated two weeks. The first slot in the Central London courts of two weeks is not until March 2008.

So, at a stroke they have put the case beyond my (even with your support) ability to fund a legal team and delayed it for a further eight months taking it to eleven months since we first filed our papers.

This seems to me to be pure bullying tactics. Well I can tell those employees of the CAA who read this that I haven't allowed myself to bullied since I was about eight years old. I will continue to fight this ludicrous piece of legislation which deprives me and many like me of the ability to earn a decent income right through to the European Courts if necessary using whatever resources I can muster.

Ian Evans

[Kalif]

Most of us pilots earn a very decent wage and have a clear interest in this.
Have a think ladies and gents, this fight needs our support and the one way we can all help is very simple and affordable.
I for one am willing to put up £500 towards the fighting fund.
Any other takers?
Kalif

[Bertie Thruster]

My £500 confirmed here.

[Whirlygig]

Good for you guys!!! :ok: :D

I'm going to have to add another column to my little black book now so let's make use of it. As I am now an heiress, it would be churlish not to match the offers above!

Cheers

Whirls

[JimBall]

They won't find any credible expert witnesses. They will lose and the DfT will bail them out on costs.

My pledge is £1000 - of which we should (I am told) expect to get back around 70% in costs. And Ian can have that for leading the fight.

I am appalled by what Ian reports above. The CAA need to be brought to task over this matter and their attitude which does not reflect the real world. Once they have been proven wrong, then every pressure should be brought to bear on them as "unfit for purpose".

Roll on Euro-regs.

[Bertie Thruster]

...and shame on BALPA for not wishing to take up the cause for their older rotary members...probably because the NEC is made up of well paid fixed wing jocks happy, willing and able to slope off at 60.

My forecast company pension at age 60, after 15 years on-shore police/hems.....£2k/year!!

[clanger32]

Bizarrely, as someone about to embark on becoming a "fixed wing jockey" (sorry for barging in chaps and chapesses!) I would love to contribute towards what I see as a very worthwhile cause. Unfortunately I am not able to at the current time (due to impending huge costs of training!) but I did want to ask if anyone had considered approaching a high profile figure head for this someone like....ooh, Richard Branson? It's right up his street, would solve funding needs in one hit, and raise profile for both Virgin Atlantic, him and the cause....I'm guessing that fixed wing will be with you on this also...

Sorry if this is of no use, but please accept it's at least well intentioned, even if ill informed!
Best of luck with it whatever happens!

[chris_h]

Ian,

Up my contribution to £500.

[uncle ian]

I'm very grateful for all that support. Please remember that I'm asking for a backstop here. If we win, although costs cannot be recovered at the industrial tribunal, any compensation I'm awarded will go towards costs.

My main concern is that the Boys in the Belgrano will appeal any outcome not in their favour through High Court, Lords and European Courts. My understanding is that at that stage Public funding will become availabe as this will be a test case and no individual should be expected to bear the costs of such an action; however there is no guarantee.

The main reason for seeking your support is so that the CAA will understand that the bully boy tactics they are prone to adopt when challenged over anything will not work here. They are no longer dealing with an individual who might yield under pressure.....bear in mind they don't know me at all as many of you do.

As for support from high profile individuals; I have publicised the cause in The Times and on BBC 1. No one has come forward and, to be frank, I wouldn't expect anyone to do so who is not directly involved. I certainly would not feel comfortable approaching, say, Richard Branson although I've flown him and he is part of the industry as it really isn't his fight.

It is, however, a fight that the fixed wing boys should be getting involved in. With a few notable exeptions that part of the industy has ignored us. That is no surprise when most of them are content to carry on to 65 as part of a two crew operation earning in excess of £100k pa with a final salary scheme pension waiting for them. BALPA has worked hard for just that but who gets any of it in the rotary field?

I can assure you I've tried most avenues for support including, for example, "Age Concern" (had to swallow some pride before making that call!). Very sympathetic and, in fact, put me in touch with The Times etc. but not able to fund me as the numbers affected are so small. My view is that that's short sighted as the imlications are far wider reaching than helicopter pilots or pilots in general but the whole of public transport including ships, trains, busses, coaches, taxis, ambulances etc. etc. At present only pilots of that long list are discriminated against in this way but what if the CAA should win?
I, for one, will want to know why my taxi driver's allowed to work until he's seventy!

On we go!

Uncle Ian

[FloaterNorthWest]

Just got the Governments reply to the petition:

"The age limit on single pilot operations implements the requirement of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. These requirements are based on internationally agreed medical standards. We believe that it is justified based on the available medical evidence."

Thought the age was set at 65 in ICAO?

FNW

[verticalhold]

F***ing W***ers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The man who stole your old age pension is now determined to stop you working an extra five years to help put right some of the damage he has done since 1997.

C***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VH (Blood pressure now too high to fly for the rest of the day)

Get in there Ian and give them a good legal kicking

[handysnaks]

Thought the age was set at 65 in ICAO?
It is, unfortunately single pilot operations are specifically excluded!:(

[handysnaks]

Further to the above. I think this is the relevant part of the ICAO amendment (167 to annexe 1)
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial international air transport operations if the licence holders have
attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is
younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
Note. Attention is drawn to paragraph 1.2.5.2.6 on the validity period of medical assessments for
pilots over the age of 60 who are engaged in commercial air transport operations.
. . .

The bold type section is the area where our authority could have cut us all a little slack! However, in a typical example of 'joined up thinking', They tell us we'll have to work longer to pay for our pensions whilst depriving us of the major means to do it!:hmm:

[JimBall]

This case is undoubtedly going to be a battle of the expert opinion.
Bear in mind that the "10 Downing St" reply is based on information received from the CAA - or "the defendant". Now read Ian's pre-hearing report above.
It becomes immediately apparent that the CAA defence will rely entirely upon "expert" medical opinion.
They have a small army of Profs, Specialists, Consultants who all accept part-time consultancies in exchange for having their bank accounts massaged with CAA (your) money. They use consultants from some of the leading hospitals.
Most of these same people would not agree that the age of a 60 or 65 yrs old pilot is in any way directly relevant to their medical condition.
One of the current aviation medical problem areas is actually with young(er) pilots working on long haul - and they are TOO fit to fly. Fit distance runners = enlarged heart + long haul = early death.
Ian - you will need your experts lined up. Suggest you start by approaching some of the ones on the CAA list. Friendly fire can win these cases.

[wassatboing?]

Is it relevant that the ICAO rule states "international" CAT Ops?

[uncle ian]

I'll be bringing expert witnesses myself. I have a very emminent cardiologist on the medical side but if there's any one else out there who can point me at further supportive medical opinion or the way aviation law is interpreted in other ICAO states I'd be most grateful.
We all know, for example, that the CAA has different rules to the FAA regarding the operation of non-scheduled aircraft (clearly the category most of us work in) yet claims to seek a level playing field on the age issue. Anyone who has a good knowledge of the way other nations treat our type of commercial operation and aerial work would be most helpful.
Incidentally, I note the ICAO ruling makes specific mention of "International Operations". That I am seeking to fly within the UK may strengthen our case.

[DennisK]

Hallo Ian,

First ... just to 'up' my pledge to £500 alongside the others.

In the mid 1970s, my business (Spooner Aviation) trained Doctor, (now Professor) Ralph Mc Creadey at Shoreham Airport, where he still flies the C150he bought from us in 1974. Ralph is now recognised as a worldwide authority on nuclear medicine and travels to other countries on his lecture circuit.

I'll approach him for his views on our situation and willingness to help.

PS ... Good to see many of you at HeliTech ... don't knock my LOOP and 'Blades' efforts too hard lads. I'm doing my best ... now at 75!

Dennis Kenyon.

[uncle ian]

Thank you Dennis.

As one of the best respected members of our fraternity (which should include the girls omong us) your support is most welcome.

Sorry to saqy I missed your display, indeed the whole of Helitech for the first time in many years, I'm sure it was as brilliant as ever.

Ian

[Helinut]

Ian,

Have you talked to Doc Ian Perry. If you do not already know him, he is a well respected AME who has international credibility and does not accept the bureaucrats impositions lightly. Given your joint backgrounds, I suspect you do know him.

HN

[heliski22]

Hi Ian!

Don't live in the same country as you but the CAA is an important pair of shins to give a good kicking to and a successful outcome against that particular Goliath will almost certainly have much wider implications.

You've £250 of mine to add to Whirly's little book for now, maybe more later! PM me when you need it or an a/c no to where it should be sent now.

Good hunting!!

[uncle ian]

Helinut,

Ian Perry was the senior Spec Av Med at Wallop in '73 when I was there. I do, indeed, know him well.

Well respected as he is I am not sure he would convince the Court that he knows any more than the CAA's employed Doctors. Indeed, the CAA's own Doctors agree with me! The Authority's arguement is that "international concensus" is that we all are at much higher risk of a Cardiac Event post 60. I will argue that "international consensus" is not sound medical opinion and I will bring non-aviation medical experts to express that view.

Having said that, I'm sure Ian is aware of my action and I would be very happy to have his support in Court if my lawyers agree. His position at BHAB, who are understandably reluctant to show me overt support, makes it difficult for me to contact him though. Should he wish to contact me, of course, that would be another matter.

Ian Evans

[plus expenses]

Uncle Ian,

I spoke to Dr Perry about this very subject at my last medical and he was very supportive. He had just returned from JAR conference where he had strongly argued for the limit to be raised to 65. He said that it was other medical representatives from JAR countries who refused to consider it.

He also said that he would be very happy to offer medical expertise for free.

Great guy. Worth a call.

Cheers

[Munk]

It seems to me that this issue should be/will be decided on the basis of statistical evidence, concerning, mainly, heart problems. (And I know the saying, “there are lies etc……..”). I would guess that the expert witnesses that the CAA will call, will be arguing their case on this basis, as will the witnesses that Ian may use.
There must be a point that, statistically, sudden incapacitation occurs more often over a certain age. There are, of course, many factors governing this issue, regardless of age, but at some point, statistically, there will be an age when above average rates of incapacitation will occur – and this figure should be used as a basis for argument. Whether these statistics should be restricted to pilots is an additional question, but I would guess that the general population is probably a better yardstick, if only because there will be a much greater source of information. And if you argue stress levels are different, I would say it’s the younger pilots who are mostly affected - as they learn from experience!

[mickjoebill]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297934
See above thread for fixed wing pilot age discrimination case going to court in Nov, anything to be learnt from this case that is relevant to Ians case?





Mickjoebill

[DennisK]

Hallo Ian ... Am following the thread and note your call for possible press publicity.

You may know I write for Loop Publishing (LOOP) and its new 'all helicopter' brother ... the quarterly 'BLADES.' Copy number one appeared at Duxford earlier this month.

I'll be happy to raise the issue on request ... (subject to Editor approval.) I think I can obtain most of the facts from this thread, but please advise if you feel the LOOP publication would benefit the action and any particular items/areas you'd like highlighted.

Also to re-affirm my donation when required. Just need a bank 'sort code' and the usual account no.

Great to see the pprune support, particularly from the youger guys.

Dennis K.

[Whirlygig]

Dennis, currently no bank account has been set up yet. At the moment, all Ian is doing is asking for pledges so that, if need be, he knows he has the financial support of fellow pilots. In this regard, I have agreed to act as his 2IC (and signatory) so that pledgors can have some faith that we're not adding to the Bahamas Fund! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Senior Pilot]

Ian,
This announcement from the FAA yesterday:

FAA welcomes new US law allowing commercial pilots to fly until age 65

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) welcomes the legislation signed into law last night by the President that allows U.S. commercial pilots to fly until age 65. The determined efforts of Congress have averted a lengthy federal rulemaking process while enabling some of our nation’s most experienced pilots to keep flying.

Effective last night, the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act allows both pilots on a domestic flight to be up to age 65. For international flights, one pilot may be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60, consistent with the November 2006 International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard.

While the law is not retroactive, airlines do have the option to rehire pilots who are under age 65. The rehiring of pilots is not mandatory and is the decision of each airline.

In January, the FAA announced that it would raise the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65. The mandatory federal rulemaking process would have taken 18 months to two years. The FAA took a renewed look at its longstanding rule in September 2006 with the help of aviation industry and medical experts who provided the agency with valuable insight and analysis. The “Age 60 Rule” had been in effect since 1959.

[uncle ian]

Very interesting to see the US has moved a step beyond Europe in allowing both crew members to be over 60.

Of course this is of little help in the single pilot arguement as the "risk" is 1000 times greater according to the CAA. What they fail to mention in their evidence is that Part 135 operations in the States (the stuff we do) has no pilot age limit.

I am ploughing through CAA witness statements at the moment which come with 550 separate documents occupying 17 lever arch files! It's a farce.

I will be looking for some money in the new year so all those who have pledged can expect a call (or a message here, or both with details). I was rather naive about the costs involved and I will be asking for a little more from anyone who thinks they can justify it.........I've had several pledges of £500 two of £1000 and lots of £200. As it stands I would realise about £8500 if everyone honours their pledge. To date I have outlayed £6000 and can expect a minimum of another £15000. I hate to ask but it I really do need it.

Ian Evans

[Kalif]

Come on people, put your hands in your pockets....

Kev G

[Bertie Thruster]

Add another £100 to my pledge.

[DennisK]

Hallo Ian,

Not sure if you picked up my offer to write a piece on the age issue in the next helicopter edition of Loop, possibly both issues.

If you feel it would help just say the word.

Hopefully all our pprune 'pledgers' are standing by for bank or address details to assist the fund. To re-affirm my £500 pledge

Lads and ladesses ... please dig deep to support an important principle for our industry.

Happy Christmas to all.

Dennis Kenyon.

[Basher577]

Put me down for £100, Good luck Ian.

[Flashover999]

Hello there Uncle Ian,

Thanks for carrying this torch for us, I have a way to go before it effects me but I hope you kick the CAA into touch for when I get to this problem age!
If you can set up a PAYPAL account and then post the email address for which the PAYPAL account is attached I will gladly send some of my pennies. Its quite easy to set up and it would make it really easy for many to donate.




Cheers:ok:


Flash

[Marco]

Add another £100 to my pledge.:ok:

[uncle ian]

Thanks to all of you for your continued, and increasing, support. I'm looking at PayPal with Whirlygig (who will be your insurance that all the money goes where it's supposed to) right now.
Look here after the New Year and we'll have something in place by then, I hope.
Ian

[Brilliant Stuff]

I will add another £100 to my pledge. :ok::ok:

[Whirlybird]

I didn't say earlier due to a fairly dire financial situation, but I'll donate £100...I'm nearly as old as you and I really, really appreciate what you're doing! :ok:

[Whirlybird]

pepi72,

Have you never heard of personal choice and individual differences?

In other words, why should I have to give up work at 60 because YOU want or have to? Or vice-versa?

Earlier this year a woman of 66 flew a helicopter round the world via both poles, gaining a world record. About three years ago her husband, at roughly the same age, walked to the South Pole. OLD?????

Let medical examinations decide fitness to fly, not the CAA, calendars and younger people's prejudices. It's the only logical way to do things.

[timex]

This is my last post on the subject.

A lot smarter people than you and me made the rules and on the face of it they seem logical. Most of the people i know (with the exception of a handful) over 60 have all lost a lot of what made them great pilots when they were younger. Lifes a bitch but we've just got to accept it.

flungdung&Whirlybird and all the other over 60 wantoflytillidie blokes out their a question: How many of you tried to support your mates, colleagues who have been forced to retire at at 58 or 60 over the last 30 years??????


How many years ago was the criteria established and what is the average life expectancy now?

If over 60 and you can still pass a line check then you've obviously not lost your skills.

Times change, for someone so young I'm surprised you didn't notice that.

[Whirlygig]

flungdung&Whirlybird and all the other over 60 wantoflytillidie blokes out their a question: How many of you tried to support your mates, colleagues who have been forced to retire at at 58 or 60 over the last 30 years??????


Pepi, have you actually read this thread? What the **** do you think everyone's doing here? We ARE supporting someone, financially, emotionally, morally etc, who has been forced to retire at 60. :rolleyes:

Please do not hijack a thread of which the sole purpose is for people to pledge their support to Uncle Ian. Start your own thread if you think it's a reasonable subject (although it's been done to death before and the ageist brigade usually lose badly).

Cheers

Whirls

[heliski22]

Whirls,

If it really was his/her last post, let it slide - notwithstanding dearly held principles of freedom of speech, further debate is only sidetracking from the core issue, that of generating some support for Ian on a matter upon which we CHOOSE to take a particular position.

Anyway, youth and enthusiam is still no match for age and duplicity!!

Keep us posted on the financial side of things, will you?!!

Merry Xmas, all!

[Flingingwings]

AA,

Started Commercial flying at 30. Now 34 flying UK onshore IFR.
IMHO the rules should be changed for all the reasons given.
I fly with a couple of guys nearing 60 and their experience is invaluable.

As I see it, if you can still be a brain surgeon at 60 then you should still be able to be a pilot ( so long as medically fit and able to pass the required opc/lpc)

FW

[mickjoebill]

Have ideas been discussed for fund raising?


The internet offers a new way of fund raising. http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/
This site provides a gateway between a purchaser and a retailer where the retailer makes a donation on every online purchase without apparently any increase in the price of the goods.

Shop online at your favourite store via this portal and "Uncle Ian's" fund will get either a % or a flat fee.

500 companies are participating from Amazon to Zurich Insurance, Tesco Direct, Virgin, Currys John Lewis ect.
Also special deals like Marks and Sparks are offering 3% donation until Christmas.
They have thousands of members consisting of charities sporting and community groups and "good causes" as well as individuals.




Mickjoebill

[Horas]

RIGHT ON !!!!!:ugh::ok::bored:

[Horas]

RIGHT ON !!!!!:ugh::ok::bored: Who was it that said Age is in the mind or is it mind over matter ?:rolleyes:

[uncle ian]

Agincourt,

For the record and as the spotlight is very much on me................

I started Military flying aged 25; commercial aged 30. I've been at it for 35 years and don't want to stop for any number of reasons but mostly because I still love it and firmly believe it's fundamently wrong to be stopped from doing it by an arbitrary decision made, not for medical but for socio-political reasons, in 1960.

OK?

Ian Evans

[soggyboxers]

Agincourt,

I'm one of those who totally support Ian. I started military flying at age 20 and commercial flying at age 30. I've been at it for 42 years and I wish to continue for many reasons: I still love what I'm doing and somehow, despite being an old git, seem able to pass OPCs and sim rides on 2 types; being another of aviation's divorce casualties, I need to keep working for financial reasons (gone are the days of imagining my retirement at age 58 in a rural French idyll :{); I fundamentally disagree with decisions made arbitrarily on the basis of age, with no account being taken of the physical and mental health of the individual - after all, it's not as if each of us has the same fixed time to walk this earth and suddenly at a government-decreed age we pop our clogs (though with our present Nanny state and the parlous condition of the state pension scheme, maybe they'd like to build a nice little people-reprocessing plant at Soylent Green :}).

[uncle ian]

Agincourt,

When two laws are in direct conflict, in this case Age Discrimination and the ANO, it should not be left to any individual to risk impoverishment in challenging a Government which should, itself, resolve the conflict.

Judicial Review, the proper way to resolve such conflicts in Law, would cost upwards of £200,000 and the loser might have to bear all of that. The route I'm taking is the risk managed route where costs may not be awarded against either party and one's own costs are, to some extent, under control. I think it is utterly shameful of the CAA to await my [or anyone else's] challenge when they have understood all along the matter would go to Court if they did not change the ANO.

Enough of my colleagues in the indusrty agree with me and are happy to lend moral and financial support to make the action I'm taking possible. Of course you are entitled to state your views here, that's what the forum is for, but I do hope you'll let us know when you change your mind; my bet is that'll be when you're in your late fifties and realise that you're not half dead after all.

Happy Christmas,

Uncle Ian

[Whirlygig]

and increasing age does become a barrier for some of the things I'd like to play with.
Thanks Agincourt for that marvellous Shiraz/keyboard interface moment! :D;)

Cheers

Whirls

[Colonal Mustard]

and increasing age does become a barrier for some of the things I'd like to play with.

There is only one person i know who has humour like that........eh AA:}

[uncle ian]

My claim for Age Discrimination against the CAA will be heard at the Employment Tribunal, Victory House, Kingsway [right opposite the CAA's London building ironically enough] on the 3rd march '08 and for 9 working days thereafter. I can't see it lasting that long but that's what the CAA have demanded. Any one in London at that time would enormously help the cause by showing up at the hearing to demonstrate their support (quietly of course......no banners!). I am assured the Tribunal is influenced by such things. I will, also, be in touch with any media which might be interested in reporting this.

Until a couple of weeks ago I was enjoying the benefit of some funding from an insurance policy I didn't realise I had ; sadly the insurers re-read their own small print and decided I wasn't covered after all. Never mind! I've had loads of help in presenting my case and dealing with the 46, yes that's fortysix, lever arch files of "evidence" the CAA have thrown at me to scare me off.

Nevertheless I now need to ask for the pledges many of you have so generously made to be honoured. I have set up an account called "CAA Age Fund" with Whirlygig [who is an accountant by profession] and me as joint signatories to ensure no monkey business. Any money I am awarded in compensation or expenses [but not loss of income] will be added to the fund and any surplus returned pro rata. One of us will contact you with account details shortly but if youl'd like to make it easy you can send a cheque to Ian Evans, Careflight, 3 Ongar Road Trading Estate, DUNMOW, CM6 1EU made out to 'CAA Age Fund'.

Ian

[JimBall]

My 1000 pledge is on its way. And I will try to bring (a) support for you !

[chris_h]

Ian,my pledged ££££ will be with you next week and I will do my utmost to be there in March.

Go for it.

[Whirlygig]

Thanks guys,

That's most generous!

If you, and anyone else, would prefer, a direct credit (via internet banking if you have it) can be made into the account. Please PM me and I'll forward the bank details - obviously, I don't want to do a Jeremy Clarkson and publish them on the internet!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Flashover999]

Cheque in the post!

Give em hell Ian!

Flash

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Flash!

In addition the email address [email protected] is still valid if anyone would prefer to communicate via that method. However, both Ian and I have access to that account, so be careful what you say!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[SmokinHole]

Uncle Ian,

Good on you for taking up the fight! Good luck in March, unfortunately I can't be there as I am working abroad at the moment. But I will pledge my support with whatever money I can find (I am just about to fund my IR). Whirls please PM me the bank details.

By the way, I was wondering what you are trying to achieve here, specifically? I think that forced retirement at any age is by definition discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed. Medical factors are fine, but purely based on age is discriminatory. Are you trying to get the age restriction removed? Or simply trying to raise it? I would prefer the former, but you'd probably have a better chance of success with the latter.. Feel free to PM me.

Thanks,

[Brilliant Stuff]

I might be able to go into London and show my support but when do you want me there. They can not be sitting there from the 3rd onwards the whole day reading out the document, can they?
Is there a time I should make it for? Go one give me a sign, please.

[Beamish Boy]

Cheque on its way. Good luck.

BB

[Whirlybird]

Cheque in post, and the very best of luck. :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Just bumping this up to the top!

Senior Pilot, please could this thread be made a sticky for a while? Thanks.

Cheers

Whirls

[MBJ]

Wotcher, Guv. Cheque in post and will be there for the 3rd provided my incontinence pants don't do a Paxman on me beforehand!

[uncle ian]

Thanks for the fantastic response, chaps.

I will do my best to respond to everyone personally to say thanks and reassure you that the money has arrived.

Thanks for bumping this up to the top, Senior Pilot.

Ian

[Rushes]

Ian,

Good luck chap, as the big day draws ever closer. I hereby pledge my support, both (im)morally and financially! :ok:

Rushes

[uncle ian]

Money's coming in in a steady stream,thanks chaps and girls.........not a trickle, not a flood but very nice thanks. I'll be PMing people who have pledged but missed the call to arms next week. Anyone knows anyone who might have pledged but missed last week's PPRuNe I'd be grateful if youl'd give them a nudge.

Try to remember to put your PPRuNe name on the back of your cheque or I'll be chasing you even though you've paid.

Thanks to everyone

[uncle ian]

Now I've edited out my faux pas..... but I'm still exposed as an old fool!!!

[Whirlygig]

Don't know what you're talking about Ian :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Mr_G_Box]

Went in the post yesterday, no AKA on the back though.:eek:

[Flingingwings]

Cheque enroute Ian.
Best of luck
FW

[uncle ian]

G Box and Flingwing,

Cheques arrived! Thanks chaps.

There have been 40 pledges on this forum as well as another dozen or so privately or just out of the blue......public thanks here to Headsethair, exeptionally generous.

To date I've had about 15 pledges honoured (tts direct to the account I don't have exact numbers for this morning). Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

I haven't started to PM anyone so far but I'll begin tomorrow so if you haven't got round to writing that cheque yet please tackle it this week. It would save me and Whirlygig loads of time and trouble. I realise its a bit cheeky of me to press you and I appreciate that circumstances could have changed since I asked for help but if you can still help, please do it soon.

Ian

PS would Mr/Ms/Capt Cobb (cheque dated 01/02/08) PM me with your PPRuNe name, please?

[DennisK]

Hi Ian,

Just picked up the latest thread. Posting my £500 tonight. Give 'em hell.

I've finished the piece on Age Discrimination for my heli column in LOOP. I think the editor is accepting it for the March edition. I've put a note in for retro funds too, even though the case may be decided by then.

Will try to make the Strand in support circa 3rd March.

Good on yer!

Dennis Kenyon.

[uncle ian]

Thanks Dennis, please ignore my PM ref: info for your article in that case.

Ian

[Aging Heliman]

Good Grief!
Ian, I feel ashamed not to have done anything before. Sadly I have not looked at PPRuNe for more than a year for no better reason than idleness. I had mistakenly been told that you were not seeking funds.
Anyway cheque for £200 ( I wish it could be more but lack of business (age) has led to constraints) is winging on its way.
The very best of luck. Unfortunately I cannot get to the hearing since it is the run-up to NHF, but doubtless there will be lots for us all to talk about in the quiet hours at Cheltenham.

[uncle ian]

Thanks Ageing Heliman, cheque has arrived.

That makes us just about half way to the promised total including quite a substantial amount from people who did not make their help public on this forum.

Many thanks to everybody and if I haven't thanked you personally one way or another please forgive me; it will be an oversight rather than rudeness!

Ian Evans

[cyclicmick]

Uncle Ian
Just picked up on your event on the 3rd, don't get to log in too often these days, too busy teaching people to drive!!! (Has it's moments but God it's boring!) Hope to see you on the 3rd, what time does it start?
PS: Cheque in the post

[Brilliant Stuff]

I am definitely coming on the third and I also would like to know what time I should turn up.

[uncle ian]

Thanks for the support chaps.

Start time is 1000hrs. Not too sure how many will turn up on the 3rd but it looks as if they'll need a bigger room! The hearing is due to last 2 weeks so there's plenty of chances to come and cheer after the 3rd if that date is difficult,

Ian Evans

[Pandalet]

does the hearing carry on through the weekend? Or just weekdays?

[uncle ian]

Weekdays only