What would you do in this situatuion?

[Sainty43]

Hi guys,

I have a question for you people. If you were flying a light aircraft and had a midair collision and lost a wing, obviousely you would have little or no control and the aircraft would plummit to the ground! The chances are you arent going to live, but if you jumped out the aircraft at say 300ft you might survive the fall (some parachute jumpers have from much higher jumps!) I know its a very strange question to ask but Someone asked me the other day and to be honest I had never thought about it!

Cheers guys,

Lee

[Whirlygig]

I would have thought that bit of your aircraft and the aircraft with which you collided would probably get you on the way down.

Have a bang seat fitted and wear a parachute! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Sainty43]

I rarely fly with a parachute or bang seat!

[dublinpilot]

I don't think it would make much difference one way or the other.........personally I think I'd take my chances in the aircraft rather than out, but wouldn't hold much hope either way.

[kevmusic]

if you jumped out the aircraft at say 300ft you might survive the fall

Don't try this at home, folks!:hmm:

Kev.

[Sainty43]

I really doubt that!:hmm:

Well i've heard of parachute jumpers with failed parachutes surviving 10,000ft falls! It's unlikely but could happen!

Lee

[iannay]

I remember reading of a tigermoth midday during a display, both planes locking together and both pilots surviving the subsequent crash.

Interestingly, one of them made the decision to open up his engine before impact to help lesson the impact. I suppose you want the nose up before trying that one.

Staying with the aircraft will at least give you some decent crumple zones if you're lucky to hit right......

[Polarhero]

You would have to be able to jump very fast, as what remained of the aircraft would be going down at some speed more than likely.

Was some thing like this on Myth Busters, was a falling lift and the person jumping at the last second. But it does not work you would need to jump up at the speed the lift or aircraft was falling, and no was on earth can a human just that hard.

:eek:

[Sainty43]

I suppose it's all to do with Terminal Velocity as to what speed you hit the ground and im guessing a falling aircraft would have a higher Terminal Velocity than a falling person, right? If so I would take my chances and jump out at say 1000ft reach Terminal Velocity and pray I land on a haystack!!

I may be wrong!

Lee

[dublinpilot]

and pray I land on a haystack!!


More likely on top of your wrecked aeroplane! :O

Well i've heard of parachute jumpers with failed parachutes surviving 10,000ft falls! It's unlikely but could happen!


That is true, but I suspect the difference is to do with the surface that they land on.....trees for example may be more cushioning than rock!

Staying with the aircraft will at least give you some decent crumple zones if you're lucky to hit right......

This is why I said I'd stay with the aircraft......it's also possible you might have a little bit of control left too, which could help you.

[turniphead]

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-6-IsraeilF15MinusWing.wmv

It does not always follow that if you lose a wing all else is lost

[Sainty43]

A lot of interesting reply's! I suppose your right in saying there might be a little control left. If I lost say both wings I would probably jump from the aircraft. You would have so little control left, but depending on the amount of control I suppose I would stay in the aircraft. It would be scary as hell though I imagine!

Lee

[mm_flynn]

There certainly are instances of ridding the wreckage successfully http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html ("some 'usefull' tips). In most cases I would have thought an aircraft spinning out of control would decend at maybe 10,000 - 15,000 fpm which is roughly 120-180 mph. You would need to be wearing your Superman Cape to go as slow as 120 Terminal velocity. Your 'Jump' up may briefly knock 5 mph off ( If you can jump high enough to hit your head on a ceiling 1/2 meter above you). It then all depends on the crumple zones and internal restraint in the wreckage when you hit vs. the ground's crumple zones when you hit.

[PompeyPaul]

If you are in a lift or aircraft that is falling to the ground and you jumped just before hitting the bottom then it would make no difference to your impact speed (and thus nasty jerk and deceleration you will become subject to)

The only thing you will succeed in is accelerating the wreckage \ lift beneath you so it hits the earth slightly harder.

The interesting question is whether it is better to stick with the wreckage or not. I think it is immaterial. Whilst the wreckage IMHO WOULD provide some protection by absorbing the energy of impact it would also be a hinderance as it would add to the impact energies too.

I would rather be away from the aircraft simply for the fact that you stand a change of a soft landing and escape (i.e. into water) instead of being trapped inside some buckled wreckage that later ignites.

Note I'm not a very experienced aviator or analysts, just a simple physicists and so this might all be total rubbish.

[Captain Smithy]

Me? I'd rather just sit and hope that the poor buggers who have to zip me up in my body bag don't find too much of a mess:uhoh:

[VFE]

The remaining wing would still be producing lift so in effect the aircraft would (assuming everything else is unaffected) display the same characteristics as you'll witness in a spin because in a spin you are effectively becoming a one-winged aircraft. I know one person who survived hitting the deck in a spin but he's in a wheelchair now.

If you lost a wing in flight I'd recommend sticking with the aircraft. The chances are that the rotational velocity of the aircraft would prohibit any possiblilty of making an airbourn escape anyway! At about 50 feet (could you judge this in a spin??), and assuming a nose down attitude I'd apply back pressure to the control colunm and maybe even open the throttle but in all honesty... you are going to be very very lucky to survive it. So....

Keep a good lookout scan going at all times!

[Sir George Cayley]

....the sudden stop that hurts!

A flippant answer maybe but in there is a clue to survival.

How many accidents have we heard about in which AAIB suggest that if the pilot had worn head protection the outcome may not have been fatal?

Also, what about padding? Ever seen how much foam cushioning some aeorbatic aces use?

In the end though I guess fate is the arbiter. One can fall off a step ladder at home an kill your self so smacking into the ground at any rate of knots in a (non) flying machine is a lottery.

Sir George Cayley

[Basil Smallpiece]

First of all I would most probably have avoided the collision as my 'Flarm' set would have warned me of the proximity of another aircraft. Where I fly all gliders, most helicopters and an increasing number of light aircraft have it fitted. (flarm.com)

If however it were to happen I would pull the red handle above my head, igniting the rocket on the shelf behind me that then extracts the rescue parachute, and enjoy the view as I gently float to the ground. (brsparachutes.com)


http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/scalesoarer/DSCF0867.jpg

[Piper19]

There were indeed parajumpers surviving the fall from 10000ft, but there are more people that survived an aircraft crash. So I stay seated.

[eharding]

If however it were to happen I would pull the red handle above my head, igniting the rocket on the shelf behind me that then extracts the rescue parachute, and enjoy the view as I gently float to the ground. (brsparachutes.com)

...or, in the case of a missing wing, observe in wonder as the chute becomes tightly wrapped around your now wildly tumbling aircraft, leaving you with a dilemma - which company to send an SMS snottogram to first? - because I'd imagine you'd be fairly pressed for time to get both texts done... :)

[VFE]

...or, in the case of a missing wing, observe in wonder as the chute becomes tightly wrapped around your now wildly tumbling aircraft, leaving you with a dilemma - which company to send an SMS snottogram to first? - because I'd imagine you'd be fairly pressed for time to get both texts done... :)
You must've been thinking the same thing as me mate.

Heh heh... well done! :} :D

VFE.

[eharding]

You must've been thinking the same thing as me mate.
Heh heh... well done! :} :D
VFE.
Wierd - I could have sworn there was a mention of "a handbag?" in the first version of that post....I was going to say I really liked the word-play....Bracknell....handbag.... :E

[3PARA]

Turn round in Your seat, stick the collumn up Your a*se & wait for the impact. It won't help Your survival chances but will confuse the sh*t out of the AAIB inspector:ooh:

[eharding]

Turn round in Your seat, stick the collumn up Your a*se & wait for the impact. It won't help Your survival chances but will confuse the sh*t out of the AAIB inspector:ooh:

ROFLMAO

...and another good reason not to fly anything with a yoke :eek:

[IO540]

I think the chances of survival from genuine terminal velocity of a falling human (about 100kt) are zero, unless one lands in a pile of hay or similar.

The chance of survival with a missing wing is close to zero from the accident stats but isn't quite zero. I agree the descent rate could well be 10,000ft/min (100kt VS) which will certainly kill you but there is the possibility of the airframe absorbing some of the energy if it happens to hit the "right" way. Especially over a forest.

I would stay in, switch to the fuel tank that is still present, and see if there is any control left whatsoever. I doubt there would be...

[TheOddOne]

Wierd - I could have sworn there was a mention of "a handbag?" in the first version of that post....I was going to say I really liked the word-play....Bracknell....handbag.... :E
Now listen, recently, there was evidence that you'd read a book. Well, that's OK, just the once, but now it seems you might have read more than one! That's pretty serious!

Anyhow, Jen B has exclusive use of that particular trademark quote.

...or, maybe, it's like Robert Heinlein said. 'Reading is OK, provided you do it in private and wash your hands afterwards'.

TOO

[eharding]

Now listen, recently, there was evidence that you'd read a book. Well, that's OK, just the once, but now it seems you might have read more than one! That's pretty serious!

Books?...I only look at the pictures...honest.

...or, maybe, it's like Robert Heinlein said. 'Reading is OK, provided you do it in private and wash your hands afterwards'.

If that's what Heinlein thought of Reading, then lord knows what he must have made of Bracknell or Slough. Mind you, wasn't "Space Cadet" one of his better efforts? - presumably, inspired by one of the folks he met on his way through Maidenhead on his Thames Valley odyssey - can't remember any mention of furry dice in the novel though.
In a socially responsible on topic moment though: - if I had the option, I would always strap the parachute to me rather then the airframe.

[Cusco]

Tell us a bit about yourself Sainty43:
How old are you ? are you still at school? Are you a pilot? Are you a Troll?
Cheers
Cusco;) ;)
(edited to say the above was prompted by the spelling, grammar and syntax of your original post)

[Andy_RR]

Aerobatic pilots can fly knife-edge (although I don't know how long for) so why couldn't you attempt the same thing? Your climb rate might not be very spectacular (or perhaps it will be spectacularly negative) but it could help.

In such a situation, given ones last few minutes/seconds on the earth, it's probably worth trying something new!

A

[Deano777]

There was an accident a few years ago here in the SW, apologies if my story is "slightly" wrong or if this person was a friend of anyone, I read the AAIB report but cannot locate it now to post a link, basically I think he was dropping family off at Kemble, I "think" he was from Cornwall, but on landing at Kemble he managed to go off the runway and hit a hay bale?, after some checks of the aircraft he departed Kemble for home, he was near Thornbury when he told Filton radar of control difficulties, then all went quiet. They found the wreckage minus a wing, and they found his body several meters away from the wreckage, the AAIB said that the incident at Kemble had damaged the wing spar which led to the accident, and it looked like this poor chap edged his bets by jumping out, evidently he didn't make it.

The wreckage will absorb some impact for sure, but if you consider how flimsy these things are it is just going to crumble into a ball of mess, with you inside it, think of it on a larger scale when an airliner goes down, it is generally the velocity of the luggage compartments and roof collapsing under the G force when you hit the ground that kills you, i.e the bottom of the plane has stopped, and the rest is still moving towards the ground at a rate of knots.

That's my theory anyway, either way you are f"%@&d

[IO540]

While this is probably not relevant to this topic (due to speeds involved), the crashworthiness of a modern design is very different to that of a lot of stuff that is still flying.

While most planes, including I believe microlights, are supposed to withstand the same +3.8G (or whatever it is), it's obvious that there is a vast difference between the cockpit strength of say a Cirrus or a TB20 (fully or partly composite), and that of most other stuff.

Most GA planes (designed in the 1950s) have the cockpit rigidity of a cheap caravan.

[maxdrypower]

My tuppenies worth would say that I doubt you would be in a state of mind to even consider that . If youve ever seen that video of the twin with half a wing plummeting to the ground (cant find it if anyone can post it that might be good) the aircarft falls like a posessed sycamore leaf. I suggest this is akin to a rather rapid spin , majority of us here have spun aircraft , consider when mid spin would you be able to unstrap undoe the door and actully jump out ? I would say that it was an impossibility, im open to contradiction here but please only from someone who has actually done it LOL

[eharding]

...all of which reminds me of the strange events surrounding Peter Gibb & G-AVTN in 1975.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=118207

It all went very quiet after the news they had discovered the C150 in the water in 2004 - was there ever a conclusive accident report published?

[Sainty43]

Tell us a bit about yourself Sainty43:
How old are you ? are you still at school? Are you a pilot? Are you a Troll?
Cheers
Cusco;) ;)

I'm 19 years old, PPL Holder, and no I am not a Troll! Anything else ;)

[stillin1]

Stay in the aircraft.
At least that way all the mess ends up in one place.
You are gonna die, might as well be as tidy as possible.
Try not to scream like a girl on the radio:E
(unless you are a girl and fancy screaming of course).:ok:

[wbryce]

Personally, I would stay in the aircraft as it will absorb some energy as it hits the ground...it will be a lottery but still gives a chance providing the angle of impact isn't too great.
Maxdrypower, look at the recent mid air at malta (air racing event, dont know if it was the redbull one or not), close to the ground, all happened in a flash and still one of the pilots was able to unstrap, release the canopy, bail in an uncontrolled situation...by the time his plane hit water, his chute was only just opening! theirs a photo on airliners.net capturing the moment, I tried to find it...but thats a good example of how fast someone can react when in a life threatning situation. The guy would've had a milisecond ...
edit: found the pics:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1107079/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1108667/M/

[Kerosine]

If you are in a lift or aircraft that is falling to the ground and you jumped just before hitting the bottom then it would make no difference to your impact speed (and thus nasty jerk and deceleration you will become subject to)

The only thing you will succeed in is accelerating the wreckage \ lift beneath you so it hits the earth slightly harder.

The interesting question is whether it is better to stick with the wreckage or not. I think it is immaterial. Whilst the wreckage IMHO WOULD provide some protection by absorbing the energy of impact it would also be a hinderance as it would add to the impact energies too.

I would rather be away from the aircraft simply for the fact that you stand a change of a soft landing and escape (i.e. into water) instead of being trapped inside some buckled wreckage that later ignites.

Note I'm not a very experienced aviator or analysts, just a simple physicists and so this might all be total rubbish.

The bit where you say your velocity wouldn't change is incorrect.
It all about momentum.

Momentum = Velocity X Mass, at terminal velocity, relative velocitys are 0, so mass is what we're interested in.

If you pushed off the plane body you would move upward with a ratio relative to the momentum of the plane and the momentum of you. If the plane is 20 times heavier than you, 5% of your push will go into moving the plane, and the other 95% will push you up.

If we work on this idea, if you push up at 3mph, you will slow by at 2.85mph, and the plane will speed up by 0.15mph.

If this weren't the case, wouldn't the earth move noticeably every time we jumped? (yes thechnicly the earth moves when we jump on it, but not like this)

If you did this at height, you'd probably be wasting your time, as the plane would slow down to it's terminal velocity, and you would speed up to yours (which I think is higher than the planes). You would need to do it right near ther ground, in which case you would be buggered anyway as you would be landing on the avaiation equivalent of a very hot cheese grater.

Best thing to do if a wing falls off? Impossible to know, so don't start with your algebra. Your either lucky or you ain't.

[maxdrypower]

Wbryce , Amazing , Andrenaline isnt just brown and smelly it can actually help , Is this the one where the other chap died though ?

[tiggermoth]

A lot of interesting reply's! I suppose your right in saying there might be a little control left. If I lost say both wings I would probably jump from the aircraft. You would have so little control left, but depending on the amount of control I suppose I would stay in the aircraft. It would be scary as hell though I imagine!

Lee

I'd imagine you'd struggle to notice if one wing was missing or even two, it would happen so very quickly. You'd try the controls scan your instruments. It would be one of those days that you'd be glad that you put on clean underwear and matching socks, and sent in your tax return on time.

T.

[maxdrypower]

Saying all this does anyone remember some years ago an incident involving a freight 707 . In this instance the wing caught fire or someother such nasties. They manegd to land the thing in switzerland I think .The photos show that the netire skin of the wing had gone and spars ribs etc etc were all exposed , no smooth surfaces remaining , however the jet flew and landed without any injuries to the crew. Pilot mag did a big story on it , horrendous piccies but hell of an airmanship story cant find it on any website but well worth reading if your interested

[wbryce]

Saying all this does anyone remember some years ago an incident involving a freight 707 . In this instance the wing caught fire or someother such nasties. They manegd to land the thing in switzerland I think .The photos show that the netire skin of the wing had gone and spars ribs etc etc were all exposed , no smooth surfaces remaining , however the jet flew and landed without any injuries to the crew. Pilot mag did a big story on it , horrendous piccies but hell of an airmanship story cant find it on any website but well worth reading if your interested
Max, yes i think your correct, someone was tragicly killed in that collision.
Not forgeting the DHL pilots which landed their airbus after it was struck by an RPG puting a big hole on the port wing which in turn cut all the hydraulics...I can only imagine sitting in a jet with no way to control it except engine power alone.

[englishal]

Couldn't you just pull the red handle and fire off the ballistic parachute? Oh thats right, I forgot, they were banned by the CAA weren't they (or they used to be);) Then after you land wait to be rescued because your ELT would be transmitting away...oh, forgot again, these were banned by the CAA weren't they (or used to be).

Ok, if the wing came off in America, I'd pull the chute and enjoy a gentle float down, and wait until I'm rescued.............:)

[Miserlou]

I'd stay with it any day unless wearing a 'chute. Advice from a flying hero is that you keep flying it all the way through the crash; you'd be surprised how much control you have.

Comment from Starfighter pilot, "The decision to eject was made in the crew room!"

[Piltdown Man]

Losing a wing (all, and not just a bit) will result in no worthwhile control of the remainder. You and the wreckage will spin into the ground at an unsurvivable rate, no matter when or what the design unless you are very, very lucky. It does keep it tidy for those who have to count the bits though. Losing the tail makes it even more fun! This happened to a friend and myself a few years ago in a glider. For us, it all went wrong at 1,500'. I eventually bailed out to get a few seconds a parachuting but my partner still hadn't finished decellerating when he hit the ground. A ground observer, a former paratrouper, estimated his height to be 500' or so when he eventually got out. So there is no lower height.
Solution: Don't bump into anything or over-stress the thing you are flying. :ok:
PM

[Monocock]

If you lose a wing in a mid-air collision there really is very little you can do to help your chances of survival. Jumping out at 300 feet will remove all protection from around your body and would result in more direct impact injuries. The extra 3 or 4 mph decrease in speed you might achieve by a little jump upwards is insignificant considering what is happening to you.

The engine would be of more use in speed/descent control than a weak leap into thin air.

[wbryce]

thats why I always fly with a can of redbull....

[eharding]

If you lose a wing in a mid-air collision there really is very little you can do to help your chances of survival. Jumping out at 300 feet will remove all protection from around your body and would result in more direct impact injuries. The extra 3 or 4 mph decrease in speed you might achieve by a little jump upwards is insignificant considering what is happening to you.
The engine would be of more use in speed/descent control than a weak leap into thin air.
Personally, should any form of structural failure result in loss of control, I'd like to remove the protection of umpteen litres of Avgas poised in front of me, and the protection afforded by lots of sharp pointy metal in close proximity to my head and nether regions, as soon as possible. A grand on a decent parachute is, if I'm lucky, money wasted.
On a more sombre note, related to the collision featured above, lots of us know Eddie and knew Gabor, and the immediate reaction from most people I know was to review our abandon procedures - because it could happen to anybody :(

[clearfinalsno1]

The bit where you say your velocity wouldn't change is incorrect.
It all about momentum.

Momentum = Velocity X Mass, at terminal velocity, relative velocitys are 0, so mass is what we're interested in.

If you pushed off the plane body you would move upward with a ratio relative to the momentum of the plane and the momentum of you. If the plane is 20 times heavier than you, 5% of your push will go into moving the plane, and the other 95% will push you up.

Kerosine, I'm with you - I was hoping someone was going to publish a mathematical response - thank you.

Although as others point out, with a VT of probably around 120mph, the jump "up" will only slow this slightly - even if the notional "jump up" could miraculously achieve 120mph, just a few inches above the ground and thus giving a momentary downward speed of 0mph, this would all be wasted as he destructive effect on the bodies internal organs would be the same as hitting the ground i.e. the deceleration of 120mph to 0mph in a fraction of a second would pulp your insides.

This is why cars are designed to crumple in motorway crashes, rather than being incredibly strong solid rigid boxes. The slowed deceleration will save you - hopefully.