Long range capabilities of medium range aircraft?

[AdamFrisch]

Hi. I have a question.

Whenever you see max range data for airliners, I assume those figures are for a fully loaded plane, right? My question is - if you were to reduce passenger loads and carry-on baggage so you could carry maximum amount of fuel, how much would you be able to increase range? Basically what I'm asking, if done correctly, could you get an Avrojet across the atlantic, or a 737 or MD-87?

I know that long defunct Laker Airways used this technique to get intercontinental range out of their medium range DC10-10's. There's also a company that flies 757's across the atlantic from Stansted - also a medium range aircraft.

Thanks.

[towser]

Cant speak for other types but for Avrojet as you called it the answer is no. We can take off with full load and full tanks. We can't substitute fuel for baggage/pax. On bigger aircraft I'm sure its possible.

[topper28]

You can def see A319 flying on a NAT!

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=30

[Grunf]

Hi.

Pushing the limits is usually the specialty of US airlines, majors including.

Good examples are Continental and now Northwest flying 757s across the Atlantic (NWA is still going through mods in other to make them capable of switching from a lousy "domestic" version to a slightly nicer "international" version).

then you have the 737 NGs flying coast-to-coast in the US or better west coast to Hawaii which again is a pleasant trip (757 as well) considering you have a choice between that and flying with Hawaiian Airlines (same routes) which is exclusively 767s.

Sky is the limit, right:rolleyes:

[Ontariotech]

Just prior to going to school for Aircraft Maintenance at Centenial College in Toronto, and well before joining the Toronto Police Service, I was employed by Hudson general Aviation at CYYZ as a ramp rat. We serviced Canada 3000, and they routinely flew 757's to EGCC and EGPF non-stop. Also saw on two occasions their A319 fly cargo only to EGCC. So I say it can be done.

Also, Air Transat, Royal Airlines, Odyssey International and even British Airways used to fly the 757's across the Atlantic, Non stop from EGCC, EGKK and EGLL to CYYZ.

[jeppsbore]

Back in the days of EROPS (more restictive than ETOPS) Air Europe ran a regular service Gatwick to Florida with a tech stop in Canada with 757-200's so it can be done.

[galaxy flyer]

Used to fly tranisition trainers in the Galaxy at BGR--amazing how many 757s tech stopped from Europe enroute to everywhere from Orlando, Texas, Mexico and the Carib. So the IT carriers do it.

[mbcxharm]

Any 757-200 crossing the pond will probably have some sort of payload/fuel compromise taking place.
eg. With a dry operating mass of around 60T, theoretically you could get about 23.5T of payload on before you hit the MZFM of 83.5T, however the maximum amount of fuel you could then carry would be under 30T (typical MTOM of 113.4T) compared with the quoted fuel capacity of 34T or so...
Thomas Cook Airlines 757-200 service to Canada is a case in point, where their usual 235-seater config aircraft are reconfigured to a 185-seater config. Hence with a smaller payload, the maximum amount of fuel can be carried in order to operate the route without frequent tech. stops.

[smith]

Flyglobespan have been known to use the 737-800 (i think) on the Glasgow-Orlando(Sanford) route with a fuel stop in St Johns.

The aircraft have not been reconfigured so is in sardine class with no inflight entertainment. Don't really fancy it myself.

[skippiebg]

Laker Airways (exeunt Feb 1982) was known for pushing it's a/c's ranges.

Short-bodied One-Elevens flew in a 79 seat layout (89 pax certified, with 99 pax in a Channel Airways four-exit special) to the Canaries from LGW. DC-10-10s regularly flew LGW to JFK and Orlando in a 345 seat layout (380 typical all-Y layout; 399 certified, not used AFAIK).

Apart from lowering payload, Laker kept his planes squeaky clean, so the drag from toilet outlets and leaky seals oozing draggy dust-bitten oil wasn't a factor in his flight planning.

There are even apocryphal stories he instructed One-Eleven pilots to use the slipstream from departing 707s and similar to climb using less thrust. (Hmm... wake turb clearly didn't trouble him much...)

Graduated thrust on TO is said to have been used first by Laker c. 1970, though B.Cal claimed credit for it in a 1973 Flight article and has been credited with it ever since.

Also Court Line (noisily exeunt Aug 1974) flew L-1011s to the WIndies with an optional tech stop in Bermuda from Luton in a 400 seat layout but, I seem to recall, a max of 330-odd pax on these services. Also seem to recall they occasionally routed via Gander.

[Tight Slot]

I've done a factory flight from SEA to the UK in a 757-300 (and a 200) none stop. Nine hours block time with lots of lobster and salmon curt. of Boeing! Bless them.

[alexban]

For a 737 -700 ,with full fuel load (21 t) ,considering a MTOW of around 70 t , giving you a payload of around 11t you will fly for 9 hrs with almost 3t remaining fuel. The LR cruise speed is around M .785 ,or TAS 450 kts.
With aditional fuel tanks (9 tanks) you may raise the max fuel capacity to 40500 litres (the new 737 -700 ER ) -48 pax for a max range of 5510 NM (10200 km) .Quite impressive.

[Ontariotech]

Canada 3000, Scare Transat and Royal flew 757-200's from CYYZ to EGCC for years. across the pond. Even CYYZ to CDG. Even saw me a few Speedbird 75's from EGLL coming into CYYZ. If you can call 3500nm medium range then I guees they fit the bill. As a ramprat, we once filled an A320 with light cargo, no pax, and it flew CYYZ to EGCC. This was during the Aircanada pilots strike in 98.

[411A]

An example (approximately), although not a twin, a three-holer, Lockheed L1011-500, max payload, 11 hours, reduced payload, 13 hours is possible....I've personally done 12:30.
No payload, 14 hours....just.
As with most jet aircraft, the specific range is many times greatly increased with a reduced payload.
Another example.
B747SP.
Max payload, 13 hours, as I recall.
Minimal payload, 16 hours...just, but the alternate (if there is one), has to be close by.
The same is generally true with large turbopropellor designs.
Interesting to note that the max range achieved was with a CL-44, and it held this record until the B747SP came along.
It does take just a tad longer, however.
Pistons?
Two DC-6B's were delivered to AirFrance, SMO-ORY (no payload), non-stop, with standard long range tanks, 5512 USG.
With these aircraft, a fixed power setting is used (constant 1100 BHP), so of course the speed increases with reduced enroute weight.
The record holder with civil piston aircraft was the Lockheed 1649 Constellation, 23:10 enroute, ORY-SFO, I believe.
However, oil remaining was often a limiting factor.

[Brian Abraham]

Drifting off course (thread). In terms of flight time the Qantas Catalina WWII flights from Koggala Lake (Sri Lanka) to Perth, Australia would count as the longest. An average of 28 hours for the trip, the longest being 32 hours 9 minutes. The fact you couldn't rock up and buy a ticket puts it out of the commercial category though. Payload three pax and 69 Kg of mail, no single engine performance (except down) for the first ten hours (never had a failure - love P & W?), and no crew relief. :{ Us youngsters got it easy or what?

[mutt]

Whenever you see max range data for airliners, I assume those figures are for a fully loaded plane, right?

Nope, you have to look closely at the small print to see if they mean max range empty or max range with full pax or max range with full payload.

Mutt

[Question_Answer]

Regarding the range of Laker DC-10 LGW to Orlando, I recall I did this trip as a lad once on this route, although both outbound and inbound the plane stopped for a lick of fuel at Bangor, Maine. Outbound was more efficient since we were able to clear customs at Bangor and complete the second leg as an internal flight and hence walk straight off the plane.
A few years ago on the same route I had the same occur with a 767 (not sure which version) but clearly the shorter range version since it stopped at Bangor but friends on a different airline (also 767 but different version) flew non-stop and despite having taken off 30 minutes later than me, arrived in the sunshine state more than an hour before I did! Inbound, the jetstream saved a stop!