Red Arrows to be chopped? Again!

[TheWizard]

According to the Sunday Express the next Prime Minister (:} ) is planning to get rid of the Reds in yet another cut to the RAF (cue posts from the Army)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/popup_paper/0,,70141-1248209-5,00.html

[Navaleye]

At the risk of being controversial. We are losing front line squadrons and key capabilities on a regular basis. Surely the question has to be asked - why do we need them?

Perhaps the best solution would be to form an aerobatic team out of the elements of the 232 planes we are buying unnecessarily and at huge expense. Perhaps the new team could be called the "White Elephants".

The flying Banana is not a very exciting plane and perhaps it is time we pulled the plug on this ego trip.

[RileyDove]

Scampton must be worth a few quid as building land

[LateArmLive]

As the most of the "cost" of the Reds is paid by sponsorship, chopping them would have little positive benefit in a financial sense.
Now, it's time for more anti-Reds propaganda from bitter fish-heads...............:rolleyes:

[SpotterFC]

Scampton must be worth a few quid as building land

RileyDove, with the amount of English Heritage bolleux attached to most of that land, no developer in their right mind will go near the place with a barge pole.

[LFFC]

New Threat To Red Arrows (http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1083)
Ministers confirmed last night that, despite an earlier pledge to keep the elite RAF air display team, it has been included in a wide-ranging spending review.

Sadly, it looks like the writing's finally on the wall! Maybe BAES could provide the Reds with new aircraft for free? That may go some way towards helping.

[Ken Scott]

Scampton must be worth a few quid as building land

When Scampton was 'closed' in the 90s it was planned to sell the land & had already been earmarked as the site of an open prison. Then it was discovered that the planning permission from the 50s for the extension to the runway which altered the course of the road (A19?) that ran past the base required the MOD to straighten it if the place was shut & use of the runway no longer required! Cost approx £4 million.

One of the old bomb dumps was found to be contaminated & the cost to clean it up to modern H&S standards was another £3 million. (Both figures 1990s costs)

This rather spoiled the economics of selling off the place.

I'm not a huge fan of the Reds in the sense that they're all a bunch of egomaniacs. BUT....they're the best close formation military aerobatic I've ever seen, as has already been stated they don't cost the taxpayer much due to all the sponsorship, & they display all around the world as an example of British avaition & engineering excellence.

Therefore it seems entirely in accordance with government policy that such an example of quality & elitism should be scrapped. Until any comprehensive educated halfwit with a GCSE pass in media studies & no flying aptitude can aspire to being a member of the Red Arrows, the team has no place in our society.

[Safety_Helmut]

Scampton must be worth a few quid as building land
After you've paid the millions of pounds to decontaminate the land, and i'm sure there will be the usual covenants that would require its return to the original owner in the state it was in when acquired.

S_H

[Rapscallion]

Ministers confirmed last night that, despite an earlier pledge to keep the elite RAF air display team, it has been included in a wide-ranging spending review.

Sadly, it looks like the writing's finally on the wall!


Nah, means nothing IMHO. They're always included in "wide ranging spending reviews" along with many other sqns/units from all three services. The ones put forward by defence chiefs are probably carefully chosen to be either not missed too much, or too high profile to be seriously considered for the axe.

[STANDTO]

As the most of the "cost" of the Reds is paid by sponsorship, chopping them would have little positive benefit in a financial sense.

Is it?

Apart from the free sunglasses, and a bit of help with fuel, I thought the rest was people and old planes - which cost money.

Perhaps BWOS could form a team instead. Another retirement opportunity for washed up harrier jocks?

Remember - if it was that good an idea, the private sector would be doing it.

No offence chaps. You will be missed, but they have a point.

Any chance of a back seat before they swing the axe?:ok:

[Impiger]

The Reds get scrutinised in every financial round and so far have come through unscathed. Back in the late 90s we were very short of Hawks and a measure was run to reduce the Reds display from 9 to 7 or 5 (both costed) on the grounds that this would still deliver the elitist output and defence sales piece but at slightly less cost and more importantly freeing up aircraft for the training machine. I think the measure was accepted right the way through to Ministers who rejected it!

In the end even a complete scrapping would save so little money it would be counter-productive. We in the professional military might look down our noses at the rather prima donna approach of the team, but we shouldn't underestimate their standing in the public eye - scrapping them would be a vote loser for any government so I guess they're safe!

[Jimlad1]

Its that time of year again folks, CSR is upon us and the knives are out for some more salami slicing cuts. This story is leaked every time we have a spending review and every time it doesn't happen. Cutting the Reds is like scrapping the BBMF or Trooping the Colour - its an integral part of our military in the public eye and its just too high risk to think about. Nice job whichever Mole was ordered to leak this though, I suspect its as a counter to the RN leaks of recent weeks.

[Talking Radalt]

There's a £50,000-a-year job waiting for one of them at No10, making Tony's tea in the morning, opening the mail, shining shoes, that sort of thing. There's probably a clause in the butler's contract that says when Tony's too busy sucking up to George, he has to peer out from between the Downing Street curtains and sneer at all the poor people for him. :hmm:

[splitbrain]

Whether it gets chopped sooner or later, I believe the Reds will eventually go.

Welcome my friends to 'Cash in the Attic' Britain, where people know the price of everything but the value of nothing :(

[LFFC]

.........This story is leaked every time we have a spending review and every time it doesn't happen. Cutting the Reds is like scrapping the BBMF or Trooping the Colour - its an integral part of our military in the public eye and its just too high risk to think about. Nice job whichever Mole was ordered to leak this though, I suspect its as a counter to the RN leaks of recent weeks.

Nah, means nothing IMHO. They're always included in "wide ranging spending reviews" along with many other sqns/units from all three services. The ones put forward by defence chiefs are probably carefully chosen to be either not missed too much, or too high profile to be seriously considered for the axe.

The RN used to do the same thing with Britannia (http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/) every year, but it didn't save her in the end.

.. and who said that the BBMF or Trooping the Colour were safe?

[teeteringhead]

Whether it gets chopped sooner or later, I believe the Reds will eventually go. ... my (usually well-informed) spies tell me the plan is to try and run the Reds on to 2018 and then do a farewell season for the RAF's centenary .......

........ always assuming the RAF lasts that long.......:(

[serf]

Is being a 'red' a secondary duty, like the other services display teams, or is it full time - is the bbmf a secondary duty?

[Navaleye]

When you read headlines like this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/21/narmy21.xml), it does make it very hard to justify the continuation of a dedicated display team. If you voted for this shower it is all your fault because they have emasculated the armed forced to a point where they are barely viable.

[fat albert]

The reds aren't, the BBMF are. Given the amount of trg the reds do it isn't feasible for membership to be a secondary duty.

I hope they do survive - they're pretty much the only bit of the RAF that anyone the public gets to see these days and, think what you like of them as individuals, but the formation always turns heads as it transits past. As a symbol of the excellence to which we as a Service used once to aspire to, they are second to none. Why not just keep them as a reminder of how good we once were? :{

PS. I held there over 15 years ago. I can safely say that there were, on the team, some of the biggest chisellers and egomaniacs it has ever been my misfortune to stumble across. Flying looked good though :ok:

[fat albert]

Navaleye - as thus it ever was. If you genuinely believe that by giving anything up we, the armed forces, will get other kit that we desperately need then I fear you are sadly deluded. Any savings from scrapping the reds would disappear straight into Treasury coffers never to be seen by us again.

[brakedwell]

"Tony Blair has reneged on promises he made to British troops just four months ago, when he pledged that commanders would be supplied with whatever they needed to "get the job done".

Wow, what a shock, Anthony Bliar breaks a promise? I would rather believe the Taliban!

[BEagle]

Nope - the Reds must stay!

It is the Browns who must be $hitcanned - Gay Gordon and Dismal Des!!

KEEP THE REDS, BIN THE BROWN(E)S!!

[Ali Barber]

Don't know if they're still called Alternative Assumptions, but that's what they were in my time in London. The easiest way to find out if something was being canned as a savings measure was to look for the Reds. If it was above the Reds you were ok, if it was below them it was scrapped. They defined the cut off line (unofficially).

[Navaleye]

One looming fact is that the T1As are old and have limited shelf life, they are not going to be replaced on a one for one basis by Hawk 128s so something has to give. Once Typhoon is established, would it not make sense to allocate one aircraft from each of the Sqns up to a maximum of say 6 this provides redundancy to cover operational requirements. The result would be a far more impressive display by a really fast jet, reduced overheads and a public which actually sees something of the aircraft it has paid so much money for. Yes it can still be called the Red Arrows.

I'd pay good money to see a Typhoon equipped Red Arrows.

[An Teallach]

OK, own up! Who taught Beags how to play around with the button at the top?
Psychedelic BEagle, the mind boggles!
Nurse!;)

[Tim McLelland]

I'm not a huge fan of the Reds in the sense that they're all a bunch of egomaniacs.
On what, exactly, do you base this rather offensive comment?

I think that when we've just endured a quite shameful week in which the tabloid press have successfully told a nation what to think (the Big Brother saga) I think everyone can now confidently dismiss any newspaper stories about the RAF (or any other topic) as being a load of nonsense, intended to merely to sell copies. The Red Arrows subject is bound to come-up now and again, but just because they've been included in a review doesn't mean that anything will ultimately change. But it makes a newspaper headline for a dull Sunday.

It's my guess that they'll probably announce that the display season is to be pruned slightly, or something like that. Given that the RAF's airshow participation is being changed quite radically, it would seem like a good opportunity to cut-back the Red's activities in line with this policy. Of course it won't actually save much cash, but then these exercises are never about real savings - they're about being seen to save money.

Given that the Hawks will be worn-out in three years or so, it would seem likely that the team will continue to operate them until they're out of hours. The real question is what happens then. Tucanos may have been a possibility but with the new training system gradually coming along, even the Tucanos will be gone before too long, so the RAF's not going to be in a position where only the Reds operate Tucanos, while Linton has a fleet of shiny new trainers. Financially it's just not a practical proposition. I guess the Reds could be given new trainers too but it's unlikely that there will be sufficient aircraft to even handle all the RAF's basic flying training needs and also equip an aerobatic team.

More new Hawks would also be an option, but the new order doesn't even realistically cover the RAF's training requirements, so there's no chance that the Reds might get some of these aircraft too - that's just not going to happen.

Realistically, I think we can expect the Reds to stay in business (possibly with less display dates) for another three years or so. When the Hawks then start to reach the end of their lives, I guess there may be some opportunity for bringing-in aircraft from 4FTS to keep the Reds in business a little longer (as Valley begins to receive new-build Hawks) but once that route is also exhausted, I fear that it really will spell the end of the Reds.

Perhaps it's a cynical view, but it would be the most appropriate time for the bean-counters to let the proverbial axe fall, as it will enable the MoD to simply say that they are not "chopping" the team - but that the team's aircraft are simply no longer airworthy. It's the perfect opportunity, so you can only expect it to be used:hmm:

[Tim McLelland]

[QUOTE=Navaleye;3081189] reduced overheads QUOTE]
Not so - I did actually raise this subject with the Reds some years ago, albeit with F3's not Typhoons (I asked why it wasn't just as practical to re-form the Firebirds). In practical terms it's impossible because the costs of the logistics and manpower involved would be much, much higher than maintaining the team as it is. It would look good but you do indeed get what you pay for.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Sounds very like a Sunday Newspaper version of a troll.

I think it would be politically embarrassing to abolish them especialy after Tony Bliar keepin saying he is spending more and more on the defence budget..

[jindabyne]

Navaleye

Your idea has my vote - and might not be as cost-prohibitive as TM suggests, given the significantly lower LCC of Typhoon over Tornado, albeit I suspect it's a non-starter. Seven or eight dedicated aircraft for a six-aircraft display. Would be interesting to see some realistic fag-packet figures to dispel the notion - or otherwise.

[Tim McLelland]

Well it's not my opinion - I'm just recalling what the Reds (and Support Command) said to me at the time. As they rightly pointed-out, it's a nightmare keeping just two Tornados serviceable for a couple of displays every weekend so the idea of six Typhoons... no chance, and that's not even considering the huge cost.

[Jimlad1]

The thought also strikes me that the Sunday Express journo has lurked on this site for literally years, using it as a source for lifting stories almost verbatim. Sadly to my knowledge he's never had the good grace to introduce himself. Most Express stories should effectively be classified as PRUNEINT :E

[RileyDove]

We could always outsource it ! Pay the Polish or Indian air force to do it at half price and pocket the difference!

[L J R]

Whoever hinted at a Tucano team - DON'T DO IT. When RAAF went from Macchi to PC-9, the RAAF display team sounded like a formation lawn mowing team.

Keep them in JETS! - whatever type!

[cokecan]

When you read headlines like this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/21/narmy21.xml), it does make it very hard to justify the continuation of a dedicated display team.

while i accept the case that the expence of the Red Arrows is almost completely paid for by sponsorship, what offends me, given the constant reference on this site to a lack of Aircrew to fly the aircraft we do have, yet here are a dozen fast jet pilots doing, politely, FA.

as an entirely tangental question, in the 1980's we bought some 350 Tornado's of various types, yet somehow the RAF squeals when half a dozen GR4's are required. what happened to the other 344?

[Navaleye]

As they rightly pointed-out, it's a nightmare keeping just two Tornados serviceable for a couple of displays every weekend so the idea of six Typhoons... no chance,
Are these aircraft not required to be kept operational for the defence of the nation? We have 4 AD squadrons based in the UK, who aren't exactly in the public eye. Incorporating some limited team display flying into their workload would be seen as value for money by the public. We have a CVS which can't put to sea for lack of an airgroup and shortage of pilots. We have Squaddies who have to fly on the wings of Apaches because we lack sufficient SH support. Putting aside the emotional attachment we all have to the Reds, procuring new airframes for the Reds at the expense of the above is unnaceptable and that is the tough choice someone has to make. If the status quo is maintained something else has to go.

[ProfessionalStudent]

One looming fact is that the T1As are old and have limited shelf life, they are not going to be replaced on a one for one basis by Hawk 128s so something has to give. Once Typhoon is established, would it not make sense to allocate one aircraft from each of the Sqns up to a maximum of say 6 this provides redundancy to cover operational requirements. The result would be a far more impressive display by a really fast jet, reduced overheads and a public which actually sees something of the aircraft it has paid so much money for. Yes it can still be called the Red Arrows.
I'd pay good money to see a Typhoon equipped Red Arrows.

What about this then Navaleye...?

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p121/Vortex999/RA.jpg

[Brewster Buffalo]

Navaleye gets to the heart of the matter that no-one would like to see funding needed for front line forces being spent instead on a display team.

However politically chopping the Red Arrows would have a great impact and would be an admission by the Govt that they have kept, and continue to keep our troops short of vital equipment.

[Tim McLelland]

It's all about politics as usual. Chopping the Reds wouldn't save much and you can bet that the savings would never be re-invested elsewhere. Likewise, the Reds pilots maintain their proficiency whilst flying with the team (they get more hours than their counterparts) so it's not as if they would suddenly be "freed-up" to join other squadrons - in essence they're already there and available.

It's just another political gesture - the Treasury could be seen to be saving money even though they'd save little and just destroy another Great British Tradition. Nothing new there then...

[Ken Scott]

On what, exactly, do you base this rather offensive comment?
:hmm:

I base it on my experiences of those members of the Reds that I personally have known, not on third hand stories. Good enough for you?

[Exrigger]

ProfessionalStudent:

Nice bit of photoshop type work, was the picture done using DA1 - German single seat with 'nose boom', DA2 - UK single seat with 'nose boom' or DA3 - Italian single seat with 'nose boom'. I am just interested, not trying to be clever or anything but these three were the only ones that had the 'nose boom' fitted.

[Navaleye]

BZ ProfessionalStudent! Now we are getting somewhere. Not sure they need to be armed for the Eastbourne Air Show though :ok:

[knowitall]

"One looming fact is that the T1As are old and have limited shelf life, they are not going to be replaced on a one for one basis by Hawk 128s so something has to give."

Are the Germans still flogging off Alpha-Jets on the cheap?

[Tim McLelland]

I base it on my experiences of those members of the Reds that I personally have known, not on third hand stories. Good enough for you?

Not really - you're being a bit offensive to a bunch of good people who do a great job. Think you'll find that the RAF isn't in the business of selecting "egomaniacs" to man their Aerobatic Team, even if you might care to think otherwise;)

[flying brain]

Sunday January 21, 06:59 PM


The future of the RAF's Red Arrows display team is being considered as part of a review of military spending, the Ministry of Defence confirmed.

But it insisted no decisions had been taken and pointed out that that the famous aerobatics team's budget was set to increase next year.

Opposition MPs told the Sunday Express that axing the squadron would mean the loss of a great "ambassador" for the UK abroad.

Tory MP Gerald Howarth said: "The value of that far exceeds their funding. It is inconceivable that they should be axed."

And Liberal Democrat spokesman Nick Harvey said the Red Arrows "are a public display of Britain's military pride and skill".

"Were they to be axed, we would lose one of the great ambassadors and showcases for our country."

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The costs of all MoD activities are examined on a regular basis.

"A range of proposals are being considered. Decisions will be made some time this year."

He pointed out that the Arrows' budget was scheduled to rise from £5.2 million to £5.6 million next year and their future location was also being considered.

"That does not suggest to me that they are on their last legs," he said.

[Twopack]

I'm not a huge fan of the Reds in the sense that they're all a bunch of egomaniacs.

All of them eh? Oh, just the ones you've met.

Somewhat a sweeping statement. The ones I know are good blokes...guess by your logic then, that makes all Red Arrows pilots good blokes! :confused:

[Flapping_Madly]

I can well believe a modern Government spokesperson would say "A range----are being considered":rolleyes:

[akerosid]

Personally, I don't give any credence to these reports; I don't think any government would seriously consider this; it would be too much of a gift to the opposition. It's kind of a national morale issue.

I never even knew the cost and frankly, for £5-6m, it's very good value.

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5844406

[Ken Scott]

Not really - you're being a bit offensive to a bunch of good people who do a great job. Think you'll find that the RAF isn't in the business of selecting "egomaniacs" to man their Aerobatic Team, even if you might care to think otherwise;)

You're right, having on outsize ego is not a qualification for the job, but it does seem to be a result of spending time on the team.

[ZH875]

With the massive shrinkage that the RAF has undergone over the last 10 years, why do we need the Reds to advertise for people to join up.

If little Johnny wants to fly fast jets/Helos/AT then he will want to do that even without seing the Reds.

As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF. If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.

Close Scampton as well, save money, just let the place go to ruin. (oh I forgot, it already has).

[splitbrain]

You're right, having on outsize ego is not a qualification for the job, but it does seem to be a result of spending time on the team.

Is that what you think, or what you think you should think ;)

The same accusation gets levelled at the Reds groundcrews; I've known loads of them and they are no such thing IMHO they are just a bunch of guys doing their job. They do what is asked of them to sell the image around the world thats all. But, it seems that they are all on to a loser and it doesn't matter how they behave someone will sneer at them and label them egotistical, its almost de-rigueur to do so.
Odd isn't it? We champion lifes halfwits, the Jade Goodys of the world and yet deride those who are genuinely the best in their field. Unless of course they are multi-million pound footballers, or genuine egomaniacs from Stoke-on-Trent in which case them beome national heroes :rolleyes:

[Max Angle]

It costs half what we spend running President Blair's office for a year, it's a bargain.

[bakerpictures]

I also recall the same crusading Express bannering the headline 'Red Arrows to be Axed!' when I was working on my book about them one Sunday in 2004 at Kemble. Reporters were hopping around the hospitality marquee trying to tap (or was that trap?) a comment from Red 1 (then, Sqn Ldr Spike Jepson) who fielded the questions with great aplomb. As you'd expect.
Of course, the very next weekend, it was the Express once again who bellowed, 'We Saved the Red Arrows!', claiming the readers themselves had changed the minds of money men by sending in thousands of protesting views. Newspapers love kicking around these stories to show their readership they're making a difference; it's what sells papers and we always seem to fall for it. That's not to say a civil servant - or a politician - on the climb up the Whitehall ladder hasn't at one time, tried to meddle with RAFAT.
I think you'll find the team take it in their stride, treating all these mischievous stories as 'all good PR'.

[ETOPS]

Future airshow commentator....................

"And now to finish the show - The Red Bull Arrows.........." :eek:

[Clockwork Mouse]

Ken Scott

You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.

Are you related to Jade G by any chance?

[Ken Scott]

Ken Scott
You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.
Are you related to Jade G by any chance?

Oh dear, I do seem to have upset a few people by saying that the members of the Reds that I have met have large egos. Well, I'm afraid that they did, at least IMHO. It is after all, my opinion, & you are also entitled to your own. It also perhaps depends on the circumstances in which you meet them. I'm sure that they are all sweetness & light in dealing with their adoring public, but with other RAF aircrew they can be a rather condescending bunch, the result no doubt of being the premier military areobatic team, and knowing it, & therefore being better than the rest of us.

It's not jealousy on my part, and I do acknowledge that I couldn't do their job even if I wanted to. But my opinion is not ignorant, I have had professional dealings with a number of them, so I have had longer to form my opinion than the time it takes to beg for an autograph at an airshow.

Besides, in my original post I supported the Reds & was opposed to their disbandment. I think they do a good job & the RAF would be poorer place without them. But I retain the right to have an opinion of them as people, based on knowing quite a number of them.

[Navaleye]

Folks, this debate is not about personalties, although I did use the term "ego trip" in an earlier post which I know regret. If you are considered an elite, then of course you behave like one, its a natural thing to do. The analogy I would give is Formula 1 racing drivers, some of which I have met.
Getting back to the original question.... can we afford to maintain a dedicated aerobatic display team when their kit times out in three years time, when the rest of the services are having to sell the family silver? I say no, reluctantly. An alternative has to be found and I stick to my posts above.
At a commercial level, if the Reds flew Typhoons made up from a selection of aircraft ftom front line Squadrons I suspect they would get more commercial sponsorship, not less
Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Tim McLelland]

[QUOTE=Navaleye;3082234] can we afford to maintain a dedicated aerobatic display team when their kit times out in three years time, when the rest of the services are having to sell the family silver? QUOTE]

Short answer is that we obviously can, of course.

It's more a question of whether we (or to be more precise, the Treasury) wants to. Clearly, dumping the Reds wouldn't release so much as a penny for use elsewhere, but we're supposed to imagine that it would.
It's a pity that out beloved tabloids can't divert their attention from the afore-mentioned Jade Goody, and instead of telling every half-wit in the country what to think about her (because it seems, most of the population is incapable of forming a judgement without having one forced upon them), maybe they could start asking us to consider why it is that when our armed forces are tasked with the defence of the United Kingdom, their ability to undertake this task is being crippled by bizarre political crusades overseas that will ultimately save not so much as one British life, but actually result in the loss of many.
Surely, somebody ought to be asking how we've reached a stage where we're having to seriously look at chopping the Red Arrows in order to balance defence budgets, while the armed forces are up to their necks fighting wars in other people's countries. It's complete madness.

[Tim McLelland]

I was just thinking that. Do people not read threads before they open new ones?!:)

[Navaleye]

You are ignorent and offensive

Clockwork, I believe the correct spelling is "Ignorant"

[Craven Moorhed]

Knowing that some very senior RAF officers read this thread:

Rumour control: The Hawk 115's at NFTC might be up for sale in about 3-4 years......
They would make a cheap replacement for the T1's and not dig in to the 128 pile, and there's 9+a few spares of them 'allegedly' available.:)

Snag is that The Snowbirds may be about to buy them (more rumours):bored: to replace their old steeds.

[Wholigan]

Obviously bloody not!!!

[BEagle]

Wholi', this thread was shunted off 'Rumours and News' and moved here, presumably by the moderators.

No fault of 'flying brain'.

Although the two threads should clearly be merged, in my opinion.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Navaleye

Thank you. I was seeing Red when I typed it!

[Widger]

There is a little one liner in the report that gives the real reason. "The future basing of the Reds may have to be looked at".
So, after saving Scampton from the axe, shoving everything else in there to justify it's existence, the threat of DSA operations mean that the RAF will re-open Coltishall. The base will be the home of 10 aircraft and their maintainers. To justify keeping the base open, Neatishead will re-open and a new CRP will be built on the airfield at Colt.
It is anticipated that in 2009, the Reds will move to St Mawgan and then in 2012 to Lyneham.
:E :E
On a serious note....I thought the BBMF were funded by charitable contributions not the taxpayer. As I understand it, the only Taxpayer assets are: The Dead Sparrows, The Royal Horse Artillery and HMS Victory.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Why not get 'The Blades' in on the act. Top formation, now all ex-Reds and cheaper to run (apart from the green fees! ahem). No taxpayers money and just a teensy weeny bit of red paint to apply....:ok:

[unfazed]

I would like to see the reds fly a faster jet such as Typhoon

Lets face it the Hawk is a good trainer but it has had it's day

Combination of team talent and state of the art Jet would be a great advertisement for RAF

Sod the money !

[Wrathmonk]

Navaleye

although I did use the term "ego trip" in an earlier post which I know (my bold) regret. If you are

on behalf of Clockwork I believe the correct spelling is "now" ....:E :ok:

[Navaleye]

Wrath,

Spot on mate. Right spelling wrong word. :confused:

[Wholigan]

Aaaaah OK BEags ... didn't notice that. Maybe the person who moved it here should have noticed there were two and merged them when moving the one into here?
;)

[Tim McLelland]

The rumours about Scampton still continuie. Although it appears to be established that the runway is now going to be resurfaced (and the Reds operate their Hawks from Waddington while this happens) there's now a rumour going round that the BBMF may relocate to Scampton too. Whether there's any truth to it I don't know but I suppose it would make sense, as they're going to need all the (air and ground) space they can get at Coningsby.
But then there's another rumour (which I first heard last year) that maybe even the newly-restored Vulcan might move to Scampton, as there are no (cheap) hangarage facilities at Bruntingthorpe.
Who would have thought it - a Lancaster and a Vulcan at Scampton;)

[Jackonicko]

Until Wholi intervened, I'd assumed that this thread was for the grubby NCO types, and the other for the commissioned types....

or vice versa?

[LateArmLive]

Who seriously thinks we'd replace the Hawks with Typhoons?! We're trying to SAVE money, not pi$$ it away. The cost of running a Hawk per hour is a fraction of that required to run
the Typhoon.
The tornado will never replace the Hawk in the Reds for the same reason, and I have seen the amount of work required to get 9 tonkas airborne ONCE in a year, never mind 3 times a day.
Those who suggest that we could man a display team made up from jets (and pilots?) from different sqns have obviously never spent time on front line flying sqns. We're working hard enough to generate enough jets for our own operational needs as it is.

[jindabyne]

Spoilsport -------------

[scroggs]

Wholi', this thread was shunted off 'Rumours and News' and moved here, presumably by the moderators.
No fault of 'flying brain'.
Although the two threads should clearly be merged, in my opinion.

Done! I didn't move it here, though.

Scroggs

[unfazed]

Who seriously thinks we'd replace the Hawks with Typhoons?! We're trying to SAVE money, not pi$$ it away. The cost of running a Hawk per hour is a fraction of that required to run
the Typhoon

Other countries manage to put their top class pilots into top class and exciting aircraft, flying displays are not about putting pennies into a piggy bank somewhere, they are about inspiring people and celebrating our best achievements, I think that we need to think bigger and tell the bean counters where to shove it

[GPMG]

Of course, if the Typhoon was used as in place of the Hawk as aerobatic steed, at least the Typhoon would be flown as intended.

Not just practice, exercise, training.

[BellEndBob]

What a sorry state we are in.

The new Typhoon PR video is based on a scenario out of the Cold War and has to use CGI to make it's point. :ugh:

People are arguing over the need, or otherwise, for a display team. :rolleyes:

In the meantime, soldiers are fighting two wars with minimal air support. Little or no CAS, a small number of SH and a clapped out AT fleet.

What was that phrase again? utterly, utterly.............

[PhoenixDaCat]

He pointed out that the Arrows' budget was scheduled to rise from £5.2 million to £5.6 million next year and their future location was also being considered.


£5.6 million. Is that all? They should get rid of the Air Cadet Organisation. We cost over £21 million a year! :}

[unfazed]

Following phrase springs to mind when thinking of budget custs and penny pinching


"They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing !"

[teeteringhead]

Would that be the same Air Cadet Organisation that has rather more people in uniform than the RAF (c 50k), provides the only sight of a light-blue uniform in many (most?) parts of the UK and is run by about 200 full-time paid staff, plus of course shed-loads of enthusiastic volunteers........

...... thought so :ok:

[Tombstone]

Given that the Hawks will be worn-out in three years or so, it would seem likely that the team will continue to operate them until they're out of hours.

Perhaps it's a cynical view, but it would be the most appropriate time for the bean-counters to let the proverbial axe fall, as it will enable the MoD to simply say that they are not "chopping" the team - but that the team's aircraft are simply no longer airworthy. It's the perfect opportunity, so you can only expect it to be used:hmm:

The Hawks were lifed for another 10 years last year so, you're talking poddle mate.

[Monty77]

unfazed: you're right. Smaller countries put up better jets for their display teams.

Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end.

I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere.

[unfazed]

Monty77

unfazed: you're right. Smaller countries put up better jets for their display teams.

Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end. Bean counters should not rule on such serious matters especially bean counters who also make bad decisions based on incorrect information - Where are the leaders with the big moustaches who are meant to kick the bean counters arses and tell them how things will be (or have we got too many YES men in command ?)

I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere. Quite agree with you but again it comes down to effective and strong military leadership with the determination not to let things get that far - Why can't we do things properly like we used to ? It's not because we don't have the money, it's because we have inneficient processes and systems that waste money and innefective leaders who allow this situation to prevail.

Anyway if the bean counters had their way the Red's would become a unicycle display team. My point is that there should not be a conflict between REDS flying a decent fighter jet and a well trained military force with appropriate capability and equipment.

[teeteringhead]

The Hawks were lifed for another 10 years last year so, you're talking poddle mate. .... so we might just make the "final season in 2018" that I heard a buzz about.......

[Monty77]

unfazed

Mate, totally agree.:ok:

[dogdriver]

As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF.

Apart from the recruiting value?!

If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.
I'm sure a lot of the crew would agree while they sit around in the dump that was once a legendary airfield, having to turn away sponsorship money because of Treasury rules. Get BAe and a few others to pay for it, leave the roundels on and get the RAF to pay the salaries only (as it's good training for the blues and reds) and job's a goddun.

[Vage Rot]

When Scampton was 'closed' in the 90s it was planned to sell the land & had already been earmarked as the site of an open prison. Then it was discovered that the planning permission from the 50s for the extension to the runway which altered the course of the road (A19?) that ran past the base required the MOD to straighten it if the place was shut & use of the runway no longer required! Cost approx £4 million.
One of the old bomb dumps was found to be contaminated & the cost to clean it up to modern H&S standards was another £3 million. (Both figures 1990s costs)
This rather spoiled the economics of selling off the place.
I did the Aerosystems Cse at Cranwell in the 90s and there was a 14 year old, Civil Service Wg Cdr equivalent there who was in charge of the team deciding which bases to close, Stu-the-B4stard we called him.
Guess he got the sums wrong in a big way!!!:D

[Flatus Veteranus]

Is being a 'red' a secondary duty, like the other services display teams, or is it full time - is the bbmf a secondary duty?
Its news to me that the Reds' competition (the French Tricolors, the USAF Thunderbirds, the USN Blue Angels or the Wop spagetti benders(?) are part-timers. When 208 had the Middle-East franchise we did it as a secondary duty. But usually there was not a hell of a lot else to do so we did much aerobatics. But I do not pretend that our slickness and precision matched the Reds.
The bloke who complained that the Reds are egomaniacs is either living on a different planet or has a king-sized chip. I have met them several times and found them to be a very pleasant, modest and mature bunch.
The Reds are the RAF's main point of contact with the public, and the great unwashed love them and roll up in their droves to watch them. They usually steal the show at any event they perform at. The politicians know this and the last time the Chiefs tried to scrub the Reds, Downing Street told them to sort out their ideas.
Besides, all this stuff is penis-envy from the grunts and the fisheads.

[An Teallach]

From: The Chief Secretary of the Treasury

To: The Chancellor of the Exchequer

Dear Gordon

RAF Display Asset Restructuring

If we are to continue funding TB's bids for the history books, we'll need to restructure the Armed Forces to provide a more flexible, robust and capable force with greater reach and deployability. An obvious candidate for radical transformation is the RAF's Red Arrows.

3 concurrent studies at £2.4M each by PWC, Touche-Ross and your own Smith Institute have reached the same conclusion as to a successor. I can confidently recommend the Red Arrows' replacement (http://theredbarrows.co.uk/index.html).

[Evalu8ter]

If they do survive I bet they move to Scotland or Wales. Let's see what Noo Labour "Luvvie" has got the smallest majority with an airfield nearby....!

[Ken Scott]

What a sorry state we are in.

The new Typhoon PR video is based on a scenario out of the Cold War and has to use CGI to make it's point. :ugh:

People are arguing over the need, or otherwise, for a display team. :rolleyes:

In the meantime, soldiers are fighting two wars with minimal air support. Little or no CAS, a small number of SH and a clapped out AT fleet.

What was that phrase again? utterly, utterly.............

And the army still troop the Colour wearing red jackets, & the RHA gallop around on horses with their field guns.

Each of the services have their own PR front to keep themselves in the public eye. I agree with your comments regarding CAS, SH & AT, but they should be properly funded by the Treasury. Scrapping the Reds, which would save less than the office chair budget for MOD main bldg, would not make up for this lack of funding, but would seriously affect the public's view of the RAF.

[Sheep fancier]

Its news to me that the Reds' competition (the French Tricolors, the USAF Thunderbirds, the USN Blue Angels or the Wop spagetti benders(?) are part-timers. When 208 had the Middle-East franchise we did it as a secondary duty. But usually there was not a hell of a lot else to do so we did much aerobatics. But I do not pretend that our slickness and precision matched the Reds.
The bloke who complained that the Reds are egomaniacs is either living on a different planet or has a king-sized chip. I have met them several times and found them to be a very pleasant, modest and mature bunch.
The Reds are the RAF's main point of contact with the public, and the great unwashed love them and roll up in their droves to watch them. They usually steal the show at any event they perform at. The politicians know this and the last time the Chiefs tried to scrub the Reds, Downing Street told them to sort out their ideas.
Besides, all this stuff is penis-envy from the grunts and the fisheads.

I have to say, as a fully paid up member of the great unwashed, that seeing the 'Reds' in action see's my chest swell a tad. Why? Because they are British, and they are second to none in what they do, us great unwashed DO take pride in seeing what is undoubtably extremely difficult first class precision formation aerobatics made to look easy by 9 highly skilled members of HM Armed Forces. We DO appreciate the guys/gals who keep them maintained and flying, we DO also appreciate what you guys are doing out east.
I remember watching a vid of the Red's trip to the US quite a few years ago at a show at Andrews AFB, and IIRC despite only being able to do a flat/rolling show due cloud the Septic Tanks were in awe, and that's saying something :D
Keep the Reds, slash the beancounters.

SF

[giblets]

Perhaps its time the chiefs of staff all resigned, together.
might actually send a decent message, instead of the muffled grumbles.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

TIME TO GET RID OF THIS 'SAD' GOVERNMENT!!

To 'Kill' the Reds would contribute to the end of the RAF?

This is just an excuse for Mr Brown or whatever he is? to put more money in his pocket or to pay off their 'Silly' unnecesary loans?:=

What a Government = The sooner they go the better!:D

I don't think the Government appreciate anyone or anything anymore?

They don't appreciate the Pilot's of the Red Arrows, And how hard they train to perform a perfect display 50 + times a year.

They just think they are 'brillcream' boys and are just the 'Fancy' goods of the RAF!:ugh:

Since Labour came into power they have destroyed everything that was succesful, We are all bored of them now, and that's just looking at Mr Brown's face!!

To finish the Reds would be = Unfair, Unprofessional, and the least Embarrasing in front of the World's Aerospace.

This Country is getting 'Sillier' every week, and I am Contemplating Emigrating if it doesn't improve = Im bored of it all day - everyday!!:bored:

The problem with this Government is they don't respect what our Services do, They are just numbers at the end of the day on a piece of paper?

Whatever we say the Government will always do what they want, and when they want!:*

I don't think it matter's how hard the Reds train & display, They are living on a potential 'Timebomb' = It doesn't bare thinking about.

Mr Blair & Mr Brown = Your time is nearly up?:D

Anyone who says otherwise = is on planet ZOB!

Fingers xx The Reds.:ok:

Regards.

[Mactlsm1]

Who seriously thinks we'd replace the Hawks with Typhoons?! We're trying to SAVE money, not pi$$ it away. The cost of running a Hawk per hour is a fraction of that required to run
the Typhoon.
The tornado will never replace the Hawk in the Reds for the same reason, and I have seen the amount of work required to get 9 tonkas airborne ONCE in a year, never mind 3 times a day.
Those who suggest that we could man a display team made up from jets (and pilots?) from different sqns have obviously never spent time on front line flying sqns. We're working hard enough to generate enough jets for our own operational needs as it is.

LLL

Notwithstanding the comments above, I’ve been there and done that wrt jets on the line, albeit an older jet (Bucc). What’s wrong with having some “Heavy Metal” doing the job. Having recently see the Blue Angels at first hand, they are impressive, albeit with “only” 6 jets. Nevertheless they do what it says on the tin. (Don’t start me on Fat Albert with RATO – very ‘kin impressive) :E Also, the USAF use their own “Heavy Metal” with the F-16, again an excellent display. Not that I don’t like the Reds, I have seen them on many occasions and what they do with 9 jets is excellent, they are second to none as an aerobatic team.

If money was no object, let’s try to better the current record of 22 aircraft in a formation loop, which was done way back in 1958 (PC incorrectness and spirit willing!)

Oh bu**er, back to planet Earth in 2007.

Mac

[jindabyne]

FV

Usquam et Passim to you, sir

[Blacksheep]

BAe have been trying to sell Hawks out this way for ages. A couple of years ago the Red Arrows came, did their impressive stuff at Singapore, Jakarta, Langkawi and Brunei then went home. Brunei still hasn't bought any; Indonesia did. The Malaysians took some too, but they've crashed a few - I think they missed the word "advanced" in front of the word "trainer" when they signed the contract... :hmm:

As a sales team for the BAe Hawk I think the Sparrers days are now over. As a recruiting attraction, well the RAF doesn't need recruits any more, does it?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Local TV and radio last night claimed that the future of the Reds was secure and they would stay at Scampton, and I for one am pleased. Whatever you might think or say about them, they are one of the few things in this country that we can all be proud of.

As Ken Scott says, the Army troop theie colour, the Navy run around with a big gun, so lets keep the RAF doing what it does best - flying aeroplanes! and I'm all for leaving that to the Red Arrows.

As for the hardware - I have seen both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds. Firstly, they are not a patch on the Arrows, and secondly - they are just too damned fast! And that means that in between passes, you have time to go to the loo, join the queue for an ice cream and get a burger, all before they're back for another pass!!

Perhaps, if some civil serpent wants to save some dosh, why not put BBMF at Scampton, with the Red Arrows and the Vulcan? Whats the point in keeping 2 stations open on a saturday and sunday during the display season, when it could all be done from Scampton? Makes perfect sence to me, which is why it will probably never happen!

Kind regards to all
TSM

[PhoenixDaCat]

Todays news tells us that the £2.4 billion estimate for the 2012 Olympics has now jumped to £8 billion, and that the Navy might not get the £6billion for their aircraft carriers because they just spent £4billion on destroyers.

Nice to see we live in a country with a proper sense of priority.

:ugh:

[ZH875]

Be fair PDC, at least the Olympics will give us 60 days of sheer enjoyment, and lots and lots of medals for the UK for our money.:)

The Royal Navy would make the carriers and destroyers last at least 20 years, where is the fun in that.

Maybe UK PLC can make the 2012 Olympics the most PC yet, with everybody who takes part finishing equal first and getting a gold medal, and no one finishing last.:ugh:

Here's hoping the shooting teams miss the red targets and hit the brown(e) ones.:ok:

[VitaminGee]

Perhaps I'm being a tad cynical, but, with the future of the Reds up for discussion again, is it by accident that Red One was interviewed by Chris Evans on Radio 2 yesterday evening? :rolleyes:

[Gainesy]

And the army still troop the Colour wearing red jackets, & the RHA gallop around on horses with their field guns.

And while we're at it, bring back the RN's Field Gun Race. On the Reds, its easy to become blase, but you should see the effect they have on foreign audiences. Gobsmacked is wholly appropriate.

[BellEndBob]

But sod all effect on the insurgents in the Middle East.

It is a question of priorities. The average Joe on the street will not be open to calls of overstretch/underfunding if we maintain an aerobatic team but do not support, adequately, the troops on the ground fighting on two fronts every day of every week.

[soddim]

Sensible plot, Swinging Monkey, but BBMF's home base is open for other reasons not just for them.

Please let's not suggest for a moment any change to BBMF or the bean counters will focus their cuts on them. Anyway, they have fighters that work so maybe we could put up an operational case to keep them!

[unfazed]

- I have seen both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds. Firstly, they are not a patch on the Arrows, and secondly - they are just too damned fast!

It can't be tha same Thunderbirds that I last saw, not only were they fast they were also very agile and their routine was fantastic

I would love to see the Reds fly something comparable rather than all the lovely graceful and rather boring routines that they do because the Hawk is not in the same league as the F16

My perception, controversial maybe

[The Swinging Monkey]

unfazed,
I didn't say they wern't fast or agile (I said they were too damned fast) but lets be honest, the gaps in between their passes etc are enormous - to the extent where boredom sets in waiting for them to come back! You don't have that with the Arrows. Also, perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what the Thunderbirds and the F-16 can do in a display that the Hawk can't (except do it a bit faster, thereby leaving us with huge gaps??)

Soddim, as for Coningsby being open for other reasons, yes I know that, but we all know that the last thing a Typhoon wants (when he gets scrambled) is a bumbling old Lanc, or Spit, of Dak or anything else comes to that, getting in it's way! I think that BBMF moving to Scampton along with the Vulcan would provide the ideal solution to several 'problem' areas.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Scampton should take on some kind of 'RAF Heritage' station, where the public could come and view the RAF's 3 most popular 'aircraft/teams' throughout the year. Can't wait!!

Kind regards to all
TSM

[threeputt]

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Scampton should take on some kind of 'RAF Heritage' station, where the public could come and view the RAF's 3 most popular 'aircraft/teams' throughout the year. Can't wait!!


Now that's a very good idea. CAS are you reading this because it makes a lot of sense:D

3P

[Exrigger]

Posted by TM Post #70
The rumours about Scampton still continuie. Although it appears to be established that the runway is now going to be resurfaced (and the Reds operate their Hawks from Waddington while this happens) there's now a rumour going round that the BBMF may relocate to Scampton too. Whether there's any truth to it I don't know but I suppose it would make sense, as they're going to need all the (air and ground) space they can get at Coningsby.
But then there's another rumour (which I first heard last year) that maybe even the newly-restored Vulcan might move to Scampton, as there are no (cheap) hangarage facilities at Bruntingthorpe.
Who would have thought it - a Lancaster and a Vulcan at Scampton;)

These are the rumours that I heard when I was at Bruntingthorpe as well, so maybe it will happen, as has been said it makes lots of sense for all sorts of reasons.

[unfazed]

the gaps in between their passes etc are enormous - to the extent where boredom sets in waiting for them to come back! You don't have that with the Arrows. Also, perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what the Thunderbirds and the F-16 can do in a display that the Hawk can't (except do it a bit faster, thereby leaving us with huge gaps??)

The Swinging Monkey

Having a fast jet like the F16 gives more speed but also a much more dynamic display. The routine that I saw the Thunderbirds do was a fantastic display that was very close formation and demonstrated the remarkable capability of the F16 to truly dominate the airspace, fast climb, tight turns, very fast and covering a lot of airspace in a short amount of time

The Hawk by comparison is slower and the poor old Reds have to adapt the display to fit what is a less capable aircraft. This leads to a very flowing and lovely display but I can't help wondering what our lads would do if they got their hands on a Typhoon.

Horses for courses ! Unfortunately we can't compare like for like and I personally prefer to see real heavy metal air displays.

[RileyDove]

Swinging Monkey - If you look back few months you will find a post from me regards Scampton and siting the BBMF at possibly the world's most famous bomber airfield! Maybe it wouled make too much sense but surely grabbing some heritage money to rejuvenate the wartime buildings and maybe even set dressing the non operational areas with some period vehicles ala WW II bomber station could attract afew visitors coupled with the massive attraction of Lincoln just up the road . It could also be argued that there would be mileage in a Reds Arrows vistor centre with some interactive exhibits and a worn out Hawk fro the kids to jump in !

[Raymond Ginardon]

Quote "The Hawk by comparison is slower and the poor old Reds have to adapt the display to fit what is a less capable aircraft. This leads to a very flowing and lovely display but I can't help wondering what our lads would do if they got their hands on a Typhoon." Quote
.
It's the fact that is IS a Hawk that impresses me - they are doing great stuff with less than great kit. F16 and 18 are FBW machines with lots of fast responding thrunge, the 18 is also a drag monster (16 not so much) and exquisitely easy to fly in formation.
.
Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.
.
Ray :-)

[BIG MACH]

I read that the Reds cost GBP6.5 million per year to the taxpayer. This so-called government is spending GBP7 million to teach civil servants how to tidy their desks. If we ask the taxpayer where they would rather spend the money, I have no doubt as to the answer. The civil servants are running riot with the cash and MOD, not to mention skools 'n hospitals, are being treated like Oliver (Charles Dickens, mate). The words 'inmates' and 'asylums' comes to mind.

[WorkingHard]

Can any one give a break down of the total RAF budget? If we knew the cost of pay, pensions, accomodation, equipment, personnel numbers and number of aircraft, a better judgement may be made about the cost of the Reds and hence should they be retained. It has been said many times above, the Red Arrows are one of the UK's greatest foreign ambassadors, even if some of the personnel are criticised.

[Flatus Veteranus]

But sod all effect on the insurgents in the Middle East.

It is a question of priorities. The average Joe on the street will not be open to calls of overstretch/underfunding if we maintain an aerobatic team but do not support, adequately, the troops on the ground fighting on two fronts every day of every week.

So we have not got enough CAS (or indeed any worth the name) helicopters and transports. And I am sure that scrubbing the Reds would do nothing to remedy that situation. The average "Joe on the Street", whilst sympathetic to the Army's plight, is unconvinced of the need to fight on either front, let alone both. He might be more easily impressed by "overstretch" if there were not thousands of soldiers still deployed in areas where there is no conceivable threat (eg Germany). He might even wish that these soldiers were available to help sort out a major national emergency at home (terrorist outrage, flu pandemic - you name it). He hears on the radio that there is a real shortage of diamorphine in the NHS; and yet there we are in Aghanistan doing our best eliminate the main source of it. I do not believe that the public will ever again support a foreign intervention unless there is a real, immediate and demonstrable threat to the homeland or a vital national interest overseas.

To be cynical, the most sure ploy to guarrantee the Reds' survival would be to appoint a girl as Red 1 and, ideally, another as one of the soloists. Give them plenty of publicity and no government would dare to cut them. They would have the whole feminist pack baying for their blood.

[WorkingHard]

FV your last paragraph certainly has merit and ought to be very seriously considered but would the remaining Reds take kindly to a female leader?

[unfazed]

Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.

Come on lets be honest if you were in the Reds and the choice was Hawk or Typhoon or even F16 what would you want to fly ?

As for females why not ? it's already a reality for some

[Raymond Ginardon]

Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.
Come on lets be honest if you were in the Reds and the choice was Hawk or Typhoon or even F16 what would you want to fly ?

I think we are in raging agreement there :-) F16 and Typhoon are way more enjoyable to fly, in almost all respects, than Hawk. I was just saying that I was impressed with what they (Reds) do with what they have.

[RileyDove]

If it costs 6.5 million for the Reds and 7 million to train civil servants to tidy their desks could they not get the Reds to teach them how to tidy their desks instead on their days off and give the remaining 500K to the bar fund?

[The Swinging Monkey]

unfazed,
I think we will just have to disagree.
Yes, the T'birds are good as are the Blue Angels, and yes it is good to see some bigger hardware in formation, but I cannot agree that they are 'better' in any way whatsoever, and I still standby my comments regarding large periods of inactivity during displays by our American bretherin, sorry.

As for Scampton, long may it continue to be put to its primary use of flying aircraft. We have lost far too many of our airfields to the developers of this world who use them for storing cars and other bits of rubbish on, but thats another thread.

Kind regards to all
TSM

[Flatus Veteranus]

unfazed,
I think we will just have to disagree.
Yes, the T'birds are good as are the Blue Angels, and yes it is good to see some bigger hardware in formation, but I cannot agree that they are 'better' in any way whatsoever, and I still standby my comments regarding large periods of inactivity during displays by our American bretherin, sorry.
As for Scampton, long may it continue to be put to its primary use of flying aircraft. We have lost far too many of our airfields to the developers of this world who use them for storing cars and other bits of rubbish on, but thats another thread.
Kind regards to all
TSM

I agree. The TBirds and the Angels fly fast and tight - but not very often. I have seen kids (self included) get bored waiting for their next appearance. The Reds and the Patrouille are rarely out of sight owing to their lower radius of turn, and are always doing something interesting. Higher performance and heavier aircraft would detract from the Reds' show, as well as being more expensive - in my (not very) humble view. Actually, setting aside patriotic fervour, as a former member of the cfs Sparrows team flying Piston Provosts, I get most kick out of the Jordanians in their light aircraft, doing something very close to a precision slow roll. The transfer from positive to negative g is seamless. Brilliant. Hats off!

[G-ARZG]

Call the Swiss, they've some Hawks they want to sell !
Rumour has it some Canadians already looking at
them as new Snowbirds

[SavetheReds]

There's a petition here if you feel strongly enough.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/

Like a lot of these things, it's easy to sit back and think "they'll never do that" and not sign up. Then they've been axed.

[unfazed]

OK Agree to disagree on a couple of not too important points

Analogy seems a bit as follows......

Lets go race in Formula1 but don't bother with an F1 race car we'll just use a classic race car from the 30's because they require much more skill to drive, the art of double de-clutching is still alive and we can stay stuck in the past - brilliant !

Bit tongue in cheek so please don't be too offended !

[Exrigger]

The reds + Typhoon formation:

http://www.eurofighter.com/images/ImageoftheMonth/2004.09.02_typhoon_red_2.jpg

[alex_holbrook]

With the massive shrinkage that the RAF has undergone over the last 10 years, why do we need the Reds to advertise for people to join up.

If little Johnny wants to fly fast jets/Helos/AT then he will want to do that even without seing the Reds.

As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF. If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.

Close Scampton as well, save money, just let the place go to ruin. (oh I forgot, it already has).

Actually, you have a point. Why not make them appeal to whom the RAF seem to be targeting right now.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I give you, the Typhoon equipped...Pink Arrows
TAKE COVER!

[Blacksheep]

Higher performance and heavier aircraft would detract from the Reds' show, as well as being more expensive - in my (not very) humble view.I watched a Eurofighter doing its stuff at Berlin two years ago. With its computer driven flight characteristics it does things that no Hawk can do. Impossibly tight turns limited only by the ability of the pilot to withstand the 'G' forces.

I'm pretty sure that nine Typhoons with their similarly enhanced manoueverablity would improve the Red Arrows performance considerably. It would also help to sell the aircraft abroad. The Reds tipped the scales in favour of the Hawk in quite a few cases and the Typhoon could do with a bit of international promotion...

The Red Arrows more than pay their way and it would be false economy to ignore the sales potential of the team in promoting our defence industry.

[Tim Mills]

I agree. The TBirds and the Angels fly fast and tight - but not very often. I have seen kids (self included) get bored waiting for their next appearance. The Reds and the Patrouille are rarely out of sight owing to their lower radius of turn, and are always doing something interesting. Higher performance and heavier aircraft would detract from the Reds' show, as well as being more expensive - in my (not very) humble view. Actually, setting aside patriotic fervour, as a former member of the cfs Sparrows team flying Piston Provosts, I get most kick out of the Jordanians in their light aircraft, doing something very close to a precision slow roll. The transfer from positive to negative g is seamless. Brilliant. Hats off!
I agree, though haven't seen either Reds or Patrouille for some time; and I enjoyed Frecce Tricolori in their Macchis as well. The thought of nine Typhoons sounds pretty alarming to me, though in the current climate where real fighters appear secondary to close support, helicopters and transport aircraft, they might as well be used for something! But I would love to see it. The Hawks must be getting rather long in the tooth, and I'm sure the team would enjoy the challenge.

Referring to the Jordanians, I think they flew Pitts, as we did in the Rothmans team, and being on the inside of a real formation slow roll, led by Manx Kelly, was a very interesting experience; a sort of very tight negative G barrel roll, couldn't possibly do it without someone to formate on!

[tarbaby]

Give the Arrows Typhoons? Nochance-too expensive. The RNZAF has some low hours A4s they have been trying to flog off for years. Give Helengrad a call in Wellington, they will practically give them away.

[ProfessionalStudent]

There's a petition on the Government's e-petition site here...

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/

It seems to be one of the more popular petitions to sign up to compared to others started at around the same time (though some of the motions are a little left-field), so maybe there is a ground swell of public opinion (so it's not big numbers yet, but from small acorns). Might be worth a punt if you feel strongly. But then it is easier and less time consuming to just not bother...

[EODFelix]

Worth a view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERW-04nMOY

[vecvechookattack]

T'would be good to see the Typhoon painted red and taking over from the Hawk but I'm sure the bean counters would put a block on that idea. At £45 mill a shot, you could never justify spending the best part of £450 million quid on an aerobatic team.

[Ken Scott]

Seems to me that the AD force dosen't do much apart from practice their aeros, so perhaps using Typhoons isn't such a bad idea!

[LateArmLive]

Since when have we had an AD force???:}

[A2QFI]

We need the Red Arrows more than Tony Bliar needs a personal jet to ponce around the world stage - useless t:mad: sser. Or we could save money by getting our ill-equipped overstretched forces out of their illegal wars in the 2 sandpits. Bliar - "Respected and admired by all do not know him well!" Red Arrows - Respected worldwide and justifiably so.

[ThemightyV]

Typhoons, £45m each? Try doubling it and you won't be far off!

[jindabyne]

V

What a worthy second contribution. You might enlighten us with the source of your information, along with your analysis of same.

[GasFitter]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/
That's all well and good ... however, this petition is just behind 'Replacing the National Anthem with 'Gold' by Spandau Ballet' at the moment!
That's how much 'Joe Public' really takes this issue seriously.:ok:

:rolleyes:

[GasFitter]

Sorry, this petition has obviously gathered some momentum and overtaken the National Anthem petition, and now lies behind the:

Incorporate rather than demolish Manor Garden Allotments within the 2012 Olympic site.

The profile is on a Sky Rocket!