Apache and Royal Marines [Archive]

GPMG

17th Jan 2007, 12:10

I've noticed that over the last few years that most light infantry have a Karabeiner clipped to their webbing. Is there anything on the stub wings, tie down points etc to which they could attach this?

I'm not sure if it is still standard procedure still but most Bootnecks used to have a harness made up from Black Marlow rope, hot cut and finished off with Harry Black.

Perhaps some black marlow tied around the wing and attachment point, couple of crabs and this harness did the job.

'Good effort' to those involved, very sorry read that it didnt end as it should have done.

SASLESS, I think that the book Snake Pilot has an account of a cobra or loach crew being picked up under fire by a Cobra, they clung to the skids as it extracted them.....Or was it in Low Level Hell?
Excellent books.

Green Flash

17th Jan 2007, 12:11

During the Vietnam War, many instances of Huey Cobra gunships landing in hostile areas, often under fire, and retrieving aircrew or infantry by use of the fold down doors to the ammunition storage compartment.
Those experiences lead to the inclusion of such devices as are fitted to the Apache.
Every loss is tragic....condolences to the family and fellow Marines. It is moving to see Courage and Dedication exemplified by the actions of many during such actions as are happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Where's the storage areas on Apache, then? Can you get inside the airframe or are they used as means for hanging on? Exhaust, downwash, CofG issues??? Still bl**dy impressive.

Widger

17th Jan 2007, 12:25

Apparently, the Taliban fled when confronted with two bearded banshees, weilding waepons and wearing women's clothing!

When done Royal and the AAC. Condolences to the family of L/Cpl Ford.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

17th Jan 2007, 12:28

I cannot detract from a single thing that the team did. I also cannot argue that the resultant morale lift will be other than a real force multiplier. I offer a word of caution, though, before people get too carried away. They got away with it and have earned an unreserved BZ but what if it had gone to rats**t? Losing 3 valuable flesh and blood assets and an operationally scarce machine to recover a dead comrade is one hell of a risk. Isn't that how the US got their arrses handed back to them in a sling in Somalia?

That said, RIP L/Cpl Ford and condolences to nearest and dearest.

moggiee

17th Jan 2007, 12:33

Losing 3 valuable flesh and blood assets and an operationally scarce machine to recover a dead comrade is one hell of a risk. Isn't that how the US got their arrses handed back to them in a sling in Somalia?.
I don't believe that they knew he was dead. Given the historical evidence of what happens to prisoners in that part of the world, you could not leave a man who MAY be alive in the hands of Afghan rebels.

GPMG

17th Jan 2007, 12:34

GBZ don't talk rot, the knowledge that your oppo's will always make the effort to rescue you is worth more than any pep talk in the world.

And since when has a piece of equipment not been worth risking to save the life of a Royal Marine? If that is the way of things then everything would be in grease paper in storage.

SASless

17th Jan 2007, 12:35

Green,

The Apache does not have the same structure of the Cobra. Even on the Cobra, the external passengers rode out in the open on top of the doors but had no harness or any way to secure themselves to the aircraft beyond holding on.

When the Apache came along...the aircrew survival vest incorporated a carabiner type link to facilitate being secured to the aircraft using the devices built into the aircraft for use during such rides. It was a simple mod to the aircraft that afforded the ability to do what has been done.

The incident under discussion here is the first I heard of troops riding into the LZ.

The fact people have ridden on the outside of a gunship before.....in no way diminishes the Courage and Dedication exemplified by the Marines being praised here.

They are to be greatly admired for what they did.

Green Flash

17th Jan 2007, 13:02

Thanks SAS. Suggest we all invest in karabiners sharpish!

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

17th Jan 2007, 13:13

moggiee

I didn't read the possibility of L/Cpl Ford still being alive into the news report. The report I heard earlier on the radio seemed in no doubt that he was known to be dead. If he was believed to be possibly alive, I modify my Post accordingly.

JimBall

17th Jan 2007, 13:36

The UK news agenda today is quite despicable. The top story is about Celebrity Big Brother - everywhere. Such a complete waste of time. The Apache story is way down the list.

Anyone got an Apache near Elstree to pick-up 3 rather dumb women ? There's a reservation waiting for them at the Helmand Hilton.

time expired

17th Jan 2007, 14:15

First RIP L/Cpl Ford and condolences to his family and friends.
Second where does the modern British society get such men.I,due to
the magic of satellite TV,can watch BBC 1,2,3,4,ITV1,2,3,4, and find
it very difficult to imagine that this whining ,me, me,me,alcohol-soaked
socialist society as depicted on TV could have produced men such as
these Marines.However maybe something of the Churchillian spirit is still
present in the UK, as an expat. I can only hope so.
One should not mourn these men one should thank God they
lived.
Regards

Jeep

17th Jan 2007, 14:42

I am led to believe it all done with magnets.

London Mil

17th Jan 2007, 14:52

Not our chaps but it gives you an idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/cobrahistorian/SFFreeride2.jpg

GPMG

17th Jan 2007, 14:58

First RIP L/Cpl Ford and condolences to his family and friends.
Second where does the modern British society get such men.

You don't get such men from British society, you get them from Lympstone Commando. Some of the best training in the world turns young men into Royal Marine Commandos. Very few meet the standard and 99.9% need not apply. :)

Hoorah and Huzah.

MReyn24050

17th Jan 2007, 15:41

BZ to the Royals and Army air Corps. RIP L/Cpl Ford and condolences to nearest and dearest.

Group Captain Barwell in 1943 proposed a method of transporting a couple of ground crewman in canvas bag mounted on top of each wing of a Spitfire. The bag was to be attached using a loop secured to the barrel of the 20mm cannon and the rear of the bag was secured to the wing trailing edge inside of the flap.
It is believed that this scheme was never air-tested with a human passenger for want of a volunteer!!

Valiantone

17th Jan 2007, 16:29

Apologies in advance for not qualifying as being a military, or for that matter any other aircrew type, however given that others that are not, still frequent this section........ what the Hell:eek:

Although I escaped from Immingham long ago, I know L/Cpl Ford's Mother and Stepfather, and I know they would be very pleased to hear that you guys are heaping praise on their son, and the brave lads that risked their own lives to recover him.

I can only remember him as being a spotty teenager, but like some of his RM colleagues, that I met while they did a certain Ex last month. I have the utmost respect for what they do on the ground, just as much as what some of you the aircrew do up above.

As for the news today I agree that some of the personalities could do with a spell in Helmand, instead of harping on ad-nausea how perfect they are.

Thanks

V1

Thud_and_Blunder

17th Jan 2007, 16:34

Thought I remembered reading something on this subject elsewhere, then found it here:

http://avia.russian.ee/helicopters_eng/mi-28.php

The pertinent part comes in the airframe description of the Mi28 Havoc:

"port-side door, aft of wing, provides access to avionics compartment large enough to permit combat rescue of two or three persons on ground, although it lacks windows, heating and ventilation."

I've a feeling the Israelis also took a hard look at mods to their AH64s with a view to using them for battlefield extractions too.

THE WIZZARD

17th Jan 2007, 16:49

From all members of 656 Squadron AAC, at JHF(A)
Thank you to the 4 brave volunteers that helped recover their fallen comrade.
Thank you to the brave commander that authorised the recovery of his last man (The loneliness of command in those 5 shocking minutes!)
Our sincere condolences go out to the family, fiancé and friends of Lance Corporal Matthew Ford.

microlight AV8R

17th Jan 2007, 17:49

Humble civvy here. I saw the usual dribble about some chav programme on TV and was venting my fury in the direction of the good woman. Then the report came on about this incredible event. I struggled to relay the story, incredible bravery almost beyond comprehension. I can only echo the comments of others... These people are 'Great' in Great Britain. As for Mrs Micro, she was equally frustrated at the 'big story' and was speechless and almost in tears as I told her of this brave action.
Bliar does not deserve the luxury of such quality being at his disposal.

AAC Officer at Middle Wallop demonstrated personnel holding on by external grab handles immediately aft of cockpit and described this as a CSAR option. He did mention use of karabiners (sp?).

My condolences to the family of the young Royal Marine. Godspeed.

Sub-Min

17th Jan 2007, 18:13

Its about time my Army Air Corps buddies got the recognition they severely deserve for these outstanding acts of bravery alongside these mighty feats of brave courage from the Marines and Para's.........

timex

17th Jan 2007, 18:17

Now those are Oppos!!

Great effort by the Apache drivers,

RIP Royal

Shaun

Safeware

17th Jan 2007, 18:58

Firstly, condolences to L/Cpl Ford's family, fiance, friends and colleagues.

Secondly, my great respect to those that strapped on and to those that flew them in.

As part of the process of getting the Apaches out to 'stan, the need to strap on was considered and included in the RTS advice, unfortunately this isn't the outcome those involved would have wanted.

sw

Doctor Cruces

17th Jan 2007, 19:20

Deepest sympathy to L/Cpl Ford's family and friends.

Wonderful story of the bravery and commitment to recover a fallen comrade.

I hopr those involved get the recognition they deserve.

Doc C

StbdD

17th Jan 2007, 19:50

Salute to both the fallen Marine and the Apache drivers.

Another war and some other Marines: http://www.popasmoke.com/story14.html

Letsby Avenue

17th Jan 2007, 20:50

Isn't it about time someone registered their disgust at the total lack of helicopters available for our brave troops in the Helmand sh1*hole? Tony Blair must bow his head in total shame at the fact that our brave armed forces must ride into battle strapped to the outside skin of a helicopter.

As for the heroes of the day.. Awesome.

Stitchbitch

17th Jan 2007, 21:26

With sympathy to L/Cpl Ford's family and friends.

BFBS reported it was a US Apache..either way, good work fellas! :ok:

Safeware

17th Jan 2007, 21:34

EmeraldToilet

18th Jan 2007, 09:31

Stitchbitch Wrote
"BFBS reported it was a US Apache..either way, good work fellas!
Yesterday 21:50"

Read the reports, know the crews, most definitely UK AH.

Hats off to 656 et al, nice work.

RIP L/Cpl Ford

Wader2

18th Jan 2007, 12:31

If he was believed to be possibly alive, I modify my Post accordingly.

GBZ, PM please, you will see why I didn't post here.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

18th Jan 2007, 13:13

Wader2

Copied, thanks, with response.

Much appreciated,

GBZ

scribbler614

18th Jan 2007, 16:03

Letsby, while not detracting from the overall shame of T Bliar esq, I think you may find that riding "into battle strapped to the outside skin of a helicopter" was the prefered option. Not there, not a marine, not a helicopter pilot but maybe they didn't want to go in from the back of a Chinook for reasons various?
sw

Letsby / Safeware

All involved have balls the size of Snowdon and I hope their names crop up on Op Honours list before long. Can't praise them enough.:D
But agree with Letsby's point.
Preplanned op by 200 men on a defended enemy position, and no utility helicopter on task, at least close by, in case of casevac?
I'm reliably and specifically told AH were used because no Lynx or Chinook were in the neighbourhood, hence a sapper and three Royals have to do their Spiderman act.
Not that we're short of helicopters, of course. Perish the thought.

Right, carping switch off. If I ever have the honour of meeting guys involved, I'll be honoured to empty my wallet at the bar. Hoofing indeed.

Another small point. Pictures appear to show the cheap seats on outside of Apache pretty close to the air intakes. Isn't there a suction issue???!!

HEDP

18th Jan 2007, 16:31

Most certainly not.

TheWizard

18th Jan 2007, 17:30

It is a procedure that the Americans developed and is taught to AAC crews.
It has been used in combat before, however I think this was the first time people were carried INTO the danger area in this manner!
Full article can be read http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2004/n11052004_2004110501.html and http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a110404d.html
Still a fantastic action by all units concerned in the true spirit of the UK Armed Forces :D

The original Wizard

GPMG

18th Jan 2007, 18:05

Letsby / Safeware

hence a sapper and three Royals have to do their Spiderman act.

Sapper? News to me, where is that info posted? Everywhere I have looked mentions four Royal Marine Commandos.

hoodie

18th Jan 2007, 18:11

It's on ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=55916.html) as one source: See the eleventh post down and others later in the thread.

Top work, lads. RIP L/Cpl Ford.

scribbler614

18th Jan 2007, 18:43

Sapper? News to me, where is that info posted? Everywhere I have looked mentions four Royal Marine Commandos.

GPMG,
One guy was 28 Eng Regt, one from Z Company 45 Cdo, 2 from Landing Force Support Command Group.
Aircraft were all 9 Regt.
And they're all nails!

MaroonMan4

18th Jan 2007, 19:20

I think it is a great achievement - do not get me wrong - and I do not know the crews/Marines but I am sure that they all had massive balls - and it is re-assuring to know that all of the stops were pulled out in an attempt to recover what was belived to be a live comrade.
But.....and sadly it is a big but
What if we had woken to the news that 2 AH plus crews, and some marines strapped onto to the sides had been lost trying to attempt this desperate mission (and further lives had been lost in the recovery of those downed crews).
I say desperate because despite all of the bravery and superior flying skills I have to ask the question where were the SH, what was the Combat Recovery plan, are we in UK training incorrectly for JPR if this is the way that it is done for real?
Now if the Chinnie boys were unserviceable or on another job or out of crew duty or whatever then this post belongs in the wrong thread as yet again despite NAO reports and all of the advice to the Lords and Masters, there is still a huge shortage of lift capability.
In this case, so short of lift that what looks like a deliberate assault by the Royal Marines did not have adequate SH assets or a trained ground party to effect an immediate combat recovery if/when required.
THIS IS THE WORST CASE OF RISK TAKING
Someone high up knows all of this and has elected to take it on risk. Actually it is not the Public or the Politicians or the Generals or Squadron Commander that physically/mentally takes the risk - it is the crews doing the actual mission. Not only the risk of the actual recovery (being shot at, brownout etc) but also being forced to break rules and regulations (we all know the very good DASC article on operational Flight Safety).
I am not an AH driver and I am not too sure if this action falls into JSP, FOB, Training Manual or RTS (and quite frankly I really don't care as the job was done) - but one thing I am pretty sure about is that if it had gone wrong there would have been people at all levels, behind all desks looking for their sh!t deflectors and going through every rule and regulation to cover their risk averse arses. Another sure thing - it most certainly would have got Big Brother off the number one news slot (UK public hate good news/success - much prefer a bit of negative spin, acutely embarrassed about the Prime Ministers war (nothing to do with them you see)).
My point is SH orientated and I really wonder what will it take to get the rumoured Chinnies procured or the HC3s out of the shed or NH90 at the rush - does someone really have to get put on the spot (as these crews did) to take such risks to do something that we are supposedly able to do and supposedly have resourced and supposedly have trained for? If the CH47 is too big for this kind of scenario (and lets be honest it was only a matter of time before a JPR op was going to be required in theatre), then lets get a Merlin/Sea King to do it. Surely, anything (dare I say Lynx?) must be better than the situation of an AH flying back into the fire fight with the so called 'Ground Protection Party' strapped to the wings? Those AH boys should have been doing what they do very well indeed - escort/rescort and not troop 'lifting'.
Forgive me if this sounds jealous or bitter - I am not. Although RAF I have worked with Teeney Weenies before on Ops and especially with AH I am really impressed all round (and although we would never admit in public all of us are impressed with how the whole AH programme has gone for you lot - and there is no doubt that the actions of this thread leave me feeling very humble. It really does show true fighting ethos.
My rather long winded point is that if we are going to do these kind of high tempo, high risk ground ops then lets support them correctly and not on a shoe string transferring the known risk to the operators on the ground that are already taking significant risk - lives will be lost unless firstly we procure more SH and secondly take the whole CSAR/Combat Recovery/JPR (whatever todays term is) seriously.
Well done boys.

ProfessionalStudent

18th Jan 2007, 19:33

:D Bravo MaroonMAn, Bravo! :D

Safeware

18th Jan 2007, 20:28

Scibbler / Letsby et al,

Then yes I'll second the motion that the SH support needs sorted. My post was meant in a 'let's not jump to conclusions about why AH was used' kind of way.

I hope that when the HC3s come out of 'refit' that they can be put to good use quickly.

sw

TheWizard

18th Jan 2007, 20:57

Or the other type HC3s and crews that are already validated in that particular type of role!:ugh:

(Oops that could come back to haunt me in the future!)

SASless

18th Jan 2007, 21:05

I do not believe what my eyes saw in print here.....

Now if the Chinnie boys were unserviceable or on another job or out of crew duty or whatever...

When brave men are fighting and dying there are no "crew duty limits to be considered beyond getting into the aircraft and going to their aid and assistance!

In case you overlooked a small point of fact.....there's a war on!

The Marines and Apache folks demonstrated the concept for all to see....and admire!

Tied up on other Ops and unable to leave a routine mission for a Tactical Emergency....who is setting the priorities out there?

There may very well be a shortage of aircraft but a unit in contact with the enemy has priority over all others.

NURSE

18th Jan 2007, 22:12

Have to agree with the bravery of the Marines/Sapper's and the AAC aircrew. I also agree with Maroonman that had it gone pearshaped then numerous staffofficers would be deploying sh1t deflectors so the guys on the ground receive it all instead of which they are of course trying to bask in the glory. I do hope the only people directly invloved get op gongs for it and not some SO3/2/1 who was nowhere near the incident.

I would also sujest the scandelous shortage of Helecopters should be all over the papers with fleet street clamouring for political scalps.

Always_broken_in_wilts

18th Jan 2007, 23:40

Sensless,

We have "jousted" many times on here but I can assure you that all the SH folk I know and the many I don't would no sooner "blow" their own dad than call "crew duty" in the scenario mentioned here:ugh:

Unlike you guys we are hanging out of our arses here on all aviation fronts, both hardware and pink irreplaceable ware and what these AH, booty and sapper guys have done is because we are so desperately underfunded.

But, and most f@ckin definitely worth mentioning is that this was an act of the most OUTSTANDING BRAVERY THAT I DEFY ANYONE POSTING ON HERE TO REPLICATE, cos I am pretty sure I would not have had the "minerals":D

Hats off guys:ok:

SASless

19th Jan 2007, 03:05

ABIW,

The Marines and Apache folks demonstrated the concept for all to see....and admire!

As a civvie wandering around loose in Mogadishu years ago I learned something by watching our latest generation of war fighters. A huge slanging match cranked up just outside the perimeter fence where we were assembling our helicopters. I put our guys in a safe place and went to see if we might want to do a runner someplace else. As I nosed around a bit looking for someone in a position to read me my tea leaves....I observed every single young person (of both sexes) either advancing to the gunfire or take up defensive positions facing the gunfire. Now I will readily admit some of them may not have qualifed as Super Troopers but at least they were rallying towards the sounds of the gunfire.

Our Lads and Lasses in Iraq and Afghanistan have us done us old farts proud. When one reads of actions like this one, it reinforces how remarkable their performance and devotion to duty and fellows is, has been and continues to be.

My angst is towards those who are not out there where the bullets are zinging about that deprive those that are, of the equipment, training, and support they deserve. I may poke fun now and then but I have never nor shall I ever denigrate these brave men and women of our armed forces.

Please accept the notion that as a US Army helicopter pilot who has served in combat, our creed requires us to go get the wounded no matter the risk. In Vietnam it was something we just did. Our whole mission was the support of the ground troops. I am quite sure British helicopter pilots are no different in that regard.

MaroonMan4

19th Jan 2007, 04:52

SASless,
Do not worry - your eyes were not deceiving you. Of course I know that no SH crew would ever have pulled the mythical crew duty card (unless they were so fatigued from a previous op/sortie that it would have been more dangerous for them toactually strap in).
Dont be silly - it has taken us years to shake the 'whole cloud of crew duty off' and hopefully everyone knows the difference between fatigue management and crew duty.
Just to ensure that you and the crews reading this are 100% sure that there is absolutely no doubt in the participants bravery - no doubt at all - and I think that was made clear.
My mentioning of crew duty came in the same breath as u/s cabs, other jobs etc etc - because I wasn't there then there may be some extraneous circumstance surrounding the mission that prevented a more robust Combat Recovery plan from being planned and executed. As I freely admitted these other factors in the heat of battle just may make my post superflous and the crews may have been up continuosly for the last 48 hours or the aircraft were called and went u/s on start - who knows?
The fact is that from afar it appears that there are not the resources to conduct this kind of mission (I even dared to say Lynx in this immediate role). And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability? Surely if there was any Theatre that required it then with the on going high tempo, high risk kinetic ops present over there then one could argue that a commander on the ground should have this capability at his disposal rather than relying on 2 AH to fly back in.
No no no.......I most certainly wasn't passing comment on the crews in the cockpit at the moment in time - very brave, very brave indeed - but rarely do I use the word humble and it was in that post.

StbdD

19th Jan 2007, 05:06

Folks, it seems that a mission emerged. The gents on site decided to do what they could NOW. Other assets apparently were not operational in the vicinity.

The tyrany of time and distance means you can't cover everything all the time. Lack of assets doesn't help.

Good on the lads that took it on themselves to get it done.

Front Seater

19th Jan 2007, 06:10

MM4,
Dont worry, I think that we know that the days of RAF/SH v AH bashing have long gone and your points are all valid.
But hey guys, we were not there, have no idea what operational context all of this was in and therefore can say or do nothing else but recognise the heroic bravery as operators.
All of the rest of the UK armchair pontification is purely white noise and I am sure that those on the ground will have already conducted a thorough de-brief/After Action with the relevant findings/lessons passed onto to those that need to know and are in a position to truly influence the future based on all the facts that were there that day.
:ok:

FutureIsHelos

19th Jan 2007, 06:13

I can assure all those that may be concerned about whether the CH47 crews were up for the job or not, that they were othrewise tasked at the time of the rescue. Unfortunately they can only cover one emergency at a time. They were, however, there in time to give medical aid once the extraction had taken place, and subsequently flew L/Cpl Ford back to the hospital. Please do not jump to conclusions as to why the SH boys were not there when the decision had to be made.
RIP L/Cpl Ford.

TheWizard

19th Jan 2007, 06:26

And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability?

I certainly hope not given the amount of time and training that has been done to get this far. As far as the people at the sharp end are concerned this role is more relevant now for the UK than it has ever been before in modern times.:hmm:

Jackonicko

19th Jan 2007, 07:19

FutureIsHelos,

Are you implying that the Lance Corporal was still alive when extracted - or merely that one or more of the rescuers required medical aid?

Always_broken_in_wilts

19th Jan 2007, 07:55

Only a fuc@ing journo could ask that question, in a public forum that could well be viewed by family, friends and colleagues. You should be ashamed of yourself............ t@@ser:}

scribbler614

19th Jan 2007, 10:01

MaroonMan4,
You put it better than I could.
Official line remains that there are enough helicopters out there and the commander hasn't asked for any more.
Perhaps he hasn't, but I still find it hard to square with the fact that no helicopter with seats or room for a stretcher could be tasked to support an operation like this.
Paras who found themselves in the sh!t last summer have described to me calling up for air support and being told 'sorry, it's all busy'.
Is this really ok? Are you fellas just so used to doing so much with so little, getting by and hoping for the best, that nobody expects anything different any more?
To me it just seems very, very wrong.:sad:

Jacko, perhaps I can clarify a bit - it is thought LCpl Ford died instantly. Medics were required for four other men injured on the ground in initial assault, and extracted in the Vikings, I'm told.
Wishing them all a good recovery...

anotherthing

19th Jan 2007, 10:42

Notwithstanding the arguments about crew duty hours, lack of resources or whatever... the guys in theatre at the time did what good soldiers are trained to do.... use the best assets available to conduct an ad hoc, on the fly, quick rescue of a colleague they believed had been left behind in the melee.

No farting about waiting for some staff officer to make a decision some miles from the action, they saw a need, took stock of the assets immediately available, and executed a daring mission. I bet they were inundated with volunteers to strap themselves to the helos to go in and rescue L/Cpl Ford.

These guy adapted, improvised and overcame any shortfalls, not only does their bravery need applause, but their quick thinking and ability to plan such a mission. Getting in the sh:mad: t if the mission would have gone wrong would have been the last thing these guys had on their minds.

Wader2

19th Jan 2007, 10:48

Jacko, see PM

Jackonicko

19th Jan 2007, 12:42

Always Broken,

Just seeking clarification - since the post referred to seemed to be putting in the public domain a piece of (incorrect) information that really could have caused people distress.

Raising the idea that the Lance Corporal was not killed instantly really could cause the family, colleagues and friends anxiety and additional grief - questioning it was intended to get the truth confirmed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

And I asked the question as an interested individual, and not as a journo, just as your reaction was, presumably, made in your capacity as a first-rate tw@t, and not in your official capacity as a C-130 Loadie.....

peppermint_jam

19th Jan 2007, 13:50

The dedication of the marines and AAC boys out there makes me proud to be a part of it. R.I.P. L/Cpl Ford.

Always_broken_in_wilts

19th Jan 2007, 15:20

Jacko,
I may well be a first rate **** but I am proud to say I am currently employed, and have been for the last 32 years in probably the most honourable profesion on the planet alonside some of the finest individuals a man could ever hope to meet:ok:

Just remind me what it is you do again::rolleyes:

And it's C130 "J" Loadie, a very important distinction:p

Two's in

19th Jan 2007, 16:01

I'll just hijack the cat-fight thread for a moment to get back to the sub-thread started by MaroonMan4. If you take a big step back and look at the whole operation, you get a much better idea of the shortcuts, short measures and ineffective tactics our guys are forced to employ everyday because of lack of resources.

This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back. Not only are we knocked back, but the heroic rescue attempt that started this thread is as a direct result of not having the right support in place to start the job. I don't know what the right number of troops was, but it clearly wasn't 200. I don't know what level of Combat Support was needed, but it was clearly more than they actually got.

I don't take anything from the Taliban's ability to hold a well defended position, but these are British Armed Forces for Christ's sake. We spend whatever it is each year on Defence, and get knocked back by Omar and the boys because the guys in theatre have to do it on a shoestring and with less than the required amount of supporting equipment.

No wonder the Government spin machine is all over this. The balls of steel approach by our fighting men to recover a fallen comrade is a much better story than asking why he had to be a victim in the first place. Yes, I know that even if the place had been flattened by Air Power for an hour before the assault, there would still have been casualties, but it is easier to accept the loss when you are taking the objectives. Taking losses because you are going in undermanned and underequipped is a lot harder to swallow.

SamCaine

19th Jan 2007, 16:10

.... alonside some of the finest individuals a man could ever hope to meet

That'll be your passengers then :p

Green Flash

19th Jan 2007, 21:44

This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back.

Apologies if i have over simplified things here but my feeble little brain thinks - If it's a know enemy stronghold - **** it with a shed load of PW instead? Or have I missed something? Not wishing to impune the actions of real men, but given that it was a know enemy location better to stand off at 15000' and blow them to buggery? Again, no criticism on the RM intended.

SASless

19th Jan 2007, 22:14

Tigs2

19th Jan 2007, 23:34

SASless
But with ref to your last comment

"Bomb them back (in this case...forward) to the stone age. Whistle up a B-52 for such a task. Why not send iron bombs instead of Iron Men....much more efficient and safer for the Men in the long run. Bombs are cheap....lives sure aren't!

Carpet bombing would not have helped the Marine that they thought was still alive on the ground that they were trying to rescue. Your previous posts here were apt as normal, your last one was crap and an offence to the families who will inevitably read this thread.

k3k3

19th Jan 2007, 23:40

I think you'll find SASless was suggesting the enemy were bombed out of the stone age BEFORE the RM got involved.

At least that's the way I read it.

SASless

20th Jan 2007, 02:06

Tigs....

Let me make it very simple for you.

If no ground attack....no soldiers are exposed to harm.

Bombs are cheap.

Human lives are precious.

Use bombs, artillery, helicopter gunships, Spectre.....whatever before you attack on the ground.

use troops only when there is no other way of doing in the bad guys.

Do you catch my drift here? This is not a boxing contest using rules to make it a fair fight.

We should use our strenghts against their weaknesses.

Far better we rain Doom on them without risk to us. After it is all over with....then send in the troops to police up the area and search for usable intel and take DNA samples.

NURSE

20th Jan 2007, 03:28

firstly lets deal with how the british armed forces deal with casualties. A casualty can only be pronounced dead by a doctor. And I'm sure the Chinook with the IRT team and its doctor did this at the cross over between apache and chinook. the body would then be taken to the nearest Role 3 facility for identification and continuation of cascomp proceedures to make sure the correct information was relayed to the UK so the family could be infromed. The identification will include recording of injury and issuing of death certificate and cooperation with various concerned agencies like the RMP who will take evidence etc. the body will then be prepared for transport back to the UK all this is best done at the hospital which has a 'morgue facility'.
I would agree that the Chinook and support hele crews are well placed to have carried out this operation. But given the scale of the operation and the megre assets allocated I would sugest that the government is playing fast and loose with brave men and womens lives.

GPMG

20th Jan 2007, 09:16

I prefer the "Bomb them back (in this case...forward) to the stone age. Whistle up a B-52 for such a task. Why not send iron bombs instead of Iron Men....much more efficient and safer for the Men in the long run. Bombs are cheap....lives sure aren't!

Yeah it worked a treat at Monte Cassino didnt it?

Fact is that the blokes of 42 and 45 are out there doing a great job with a lack of resources. The old adage of 'Improvise, adapt and overcome works up to a point' and the British Forces have been expected to use that ideology for far too many years. Poor equipment and lack of it is losing lives.

The good old Sea King would have been perfect for ops in Afganistan but it's old and it would be unlikely to get off of the ground at those altitudes, so where is it's damn replacement?

Lack of CAS, lack of dhobi facilities on base?

It's about time that our those in charge realised that it won't be long till were faced with a disaster like a modern Isandhlwana.

MaroonMan4

20th Jan 2007, 11:40

GPMG,
Totally agree - the very heroic actions were forced upon these crews that were having to scrape the barrel for this immediate combat recovery. They were forced into this corner/decision by the lack of assets availible at that moment at time - without second guessing, I wonder IF there had been a credible immediate combat recovery plan/brief availible would they have opted for their actions?
I get the feeling that the lack of SH lift will eventually hit home - and I believe this incident will further the case, and as I have said in earlier posts anything (including a Lynx) would surely have been better than an 2 AH flying back into harms way with untrained (I didn't say not briefed) individuals heath robinson secured to the aircraft conducting what looks like an emergency procedure.
I can see a possible knee jerk reaction of Sea Kings now being sent into theatre to try an appease this fallout and sudden (now public?) realisation and understanding of the implications of not enough SH lift assets. I just hope that the junglies (who also are renowned for their 'can do' attitude) are not placed in exactly the same situation in an aircraft that is limited in performance. Looking at some of the heights and temperatures out there even the Sea King with go faster stripes and fluffy dice improvements may be seen wanting.
Why is everyone else investing in SH lift (French, Germans, Australians and even the Kiwis with NH90!) and we are left doing significantly more, with less and extremes of environment? Can someone please quantify and define the peace dividends from the fall of the Warsaw Pact, because all I see is less/wrong investment in a highly volatile and kinetic world.
Which penny hasn't dropped or how much risk are our Lords and Masters willing to take? Not over dramatic, or inter Service rivalry or playing politcs - just stating fact:
SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE AN ESSENTIAL ENABLER AND COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT THAT SAVES LIVES - WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH FOR THE NUMBER AND TYPES OF OPERATIONS THAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN - THEREFORE LIVES WILL BE LOST AS A RESULT UNLESS EITHER THE OPERATIONAL TYPE/TEMPO IS REDUCED OR MORE SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE PROCURED
Forgive me, I am beginning to sound like WEBF and his hallowed Sea Harrier thread - so I will get off my soap box.
:(

SASless

20th Jan 2007, 13:43

GPMG,
How many casualties were suffered prior to the bombing? What was the reason bombing was tried?:ugh:

Please note the wee difference between a few mud huts and Monte Cassino before making that comparison.

Bombing precision and tactics from WWII and today are quite different are they not?

Just to clear the air about misconeptions about the bombing.....it was requested by Brigadier General H.W. Dimolene, Commander of the 4th Indian Division and ordered by General Sir Harold Alexander.

The US 34th Infantry Division Commander, whose troops had made it to the top of the hill before being pushed off the hill by the German defenders told Alexander the German gunfire did not come from the Monastery but rather from the hill below the building.

The ground forces were not informed of the bombing attack prior to the bombing thus were not prepared to coordinate the ground attack after the immediately after the bombing. That allowed the German defenders to recover from the bombing before the ground attack began anew.

The US forces making the initial attack on the Monte Cassino defences lost 2100 men in 48 hours of fighting and the 34th division that followed up in the next few days took 80% casualties during their attack which got them to the top but then had to withdraw.

British troops then took up the attack and suffered casualties.....all before the bombing.

There are lessons to be learned from all that.

Dan Gerous

21st Jan 2007, 12:07

There is an excellent article on this in the Scottish Mail on Sunday, pages 10,11,12. I assume it will also be in the Mail on Sunday.

lukeylad

21st Jan 2007, 13:17

There is an excellent article on this in the Scottish Mail on Sunday, pages 10,11,12. I assume it will also be in the Mail on Sunday.

It is mate just finished reading it. There is also MOD video footage.

MaroonMan4

21st Jan 2007, 13:47

Bl00dy Hell!
Absolutely amazing - I don't know 'Tom' but judging by his last comment I think he realises just how lucky he was that day.
"It had been a close thing."
I am not sure what Gary Robinsons comments mean:

"I don't think it was heroic or dangerous. I felt 100 per cent safe at all times, because of the plan and the covering fire. At the end of the day it's our job."

However, it looks as though the Royal Marines have made up their minds about their thoughts on what type of platform is best suited to Combat Recovery:

Brigadier Jerry Thomas, Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, said: "The Apaches are small and therefore less vulnerable to incoming fire, faster, and carry a formidable array of weapons."
I hope that the AH IPT are now going to dust off the pictures of that escape pod!

Seriously, this is stuff of James Bond films and Tom Clancy novels - and I beg to differ with Gary Robinson, the actions were both heroic and dangerous!

BossEyed

21st Jan 2007, 14:33

Link to the MoS article (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=430251&in_page_id=1770).
Couple of pictures from there:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01/apachegunMOS2101_468x381.jpg
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/img/galleries/apache21/apache5_350x280.jpg
OUTSTANDING.

ppf

21st Jan 2007, 17:34

There is some video footage on the Beeb, incase anyone has missed it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm

Hats off to you brave boys.

ppf :ok:

Two's in

21st Jan 2007, 18:35

Date: 1 April 2008
To: Maj HugeBalls, 45 Cdo RM
Fm: Mr Spineless Wonder, Chief MoD Health and Safety Advisor, Abbey Wood
Dear Maj Hugeballs,
Subject; Use of Apache Helicopter for External Transportation of Personnel
Regarding your recent request of last year to employ an item of Government Furnished Equipment for an alternative primary purpose to that stated at the Cardinal Point Specification document; the Health and Safety Executive have reached the following conclusions;
1. Even with hearing protection, the ambient noise level in the proximity of such personnel would exceed 87DbA for periods of 2 minutes or more.
2. The danger of ocular impairment due to dust and other debris being present while operating under the rotor disc is regarded as being outside the limits of the managed risk metrics.
3. The drop hazard for personnel traveling externally only allows for any such flights to be conducted below 193mm AGL and below 12kph; conditions that can only be met when the Apache is being towed by a ground handling vehicle.
4. Due to the likelihood of live ammunition being in the proximity of personnel, regulations requires that all weapons be “made safe” and a full safety inspection is conducted by range qualified personnel prior to daily operations. This regulation should also be communicated to enemy combatants who are also liable under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
5. The static electricity discharge risk requires that any externally mounted personnel remain grounded via an earthing strip, thus limiting the radius of operations to 23.72 metres from the take off point when using an H&S approved grounding device.
In light of the preceding evidence, the Executive is unable to grant you authority to conduct any external transportation of personnel operations, and you are further reminded that the conduct of such operations renders you liable to prosecution under the terms of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
Please take the time to fill in the attached customer survey by answering the questions with a response from 1-10, where a 10 means “I am delighted at the pro-active response provided by the Health and Safety Executive, they make everything I do a genuine pleasure”, and a 1 means, “I know where you live, I will hunt you down like dogs and visit cruel and unusual punishments on you all”.
Yours sincerely,
Spineless Wonder

flying bizzie

21st Jan 2007, 19:11

Two's in...........Absolute quality:ok:

As they say, "Many a true word spoken in jest.":p

MightyGem

21st Jan 2007, 20:50

We used to have a saying in our Sqn, back in the 80s; "Well hard". As is the way with these things, it was somewhat overused and trivialiesd, but...
"I thought 'they'd better be quick,' said Tom
Well hard!!! :eek:

Mind you, my pilot would only ever run off and leave in the middle of a fire fight once! :=

jetflite

21st Jan 2007, 23:03

Check out the photos on rotorheads forum. .

hats off to them.

SunderlandMatt

22nd Jan 2007, 11:49

Bravo 656 Sqn. Well deserved recognition for all the excellent work. :ok:

BEagle

22nd Jan 2007, 13:10

A truly amazing and utterly fearless episode. Heartiest congratulations to all involved - all of whom deserve to receive awards for gallantry in the face of the enemy.

The images of those RMs riding that AH64 bareback shows just what a real 'can do' fighting force is capable of.

Well done indeed to all involved!!

diginagain

22nd Jan 2007, 13:20

Good grief, whatever next? BEagle heaping praise upon Pongos and Royals!

Must be mellowing in his dotage.

lsh

23rd Jan 2007, 15:20

What an awesomely BALLSY thing to do, BRILLIANT!!
Compare it to the behaviour at my local beach - Branscombe!
We really DO live in a different world!
lsh

London Mil

23rd Jan 2007, 16:52

All of a sudden I have realised that my wife is lying. These guys truly have massive cahoonas.

Fitbin

23rd Jan 2007, 18:59

Meeting any of the guys in a bar would be an honour. Stuff emptying the wallet, i'd need credit cards, bank cards, cash, and anything else I have to show the level of respect I have for them. Massive effort for all directly involved, and a privelige to be part of the same outfit.:ok:

R.I.P. L/CPL Ford.
Thoughts are with his family. Be proud of the man.

Samuel

23rd Jan 2007, 19:55

I'm not a Royal Marine, preferring my service to be much more comfortable, but if ever there was an example of self-respect and mutual esteem so inextricably intertwined, then surely this is it.
Selflessness, pride, mutual respect are not adequate concepts to describe what happened. Don't we all feel a lot better knowing there are men like this around?
RIP L/Cpl Ford, you had some truly great mates.

GPMG

24th Jan 2007, 10:27

Chatted to an other ex Bootneck yesterday and it was intereting to hear his views. I was saying what a hoofing effort it was, brave, good advert for the corps etc.

He turned round and said it was a bloody disgrace and a complete f**k up. He went on to ask what the hell was a Captain and an RSM doing risking everything at the front line on a dangerous mission like that, Colonel H syndrome he called it. Why was the initial attack so badly planned, was their any recce of the fort before hand?
He believed that it was a case of trying to cover up a very poor effort in the first place.

I can see his point to an extent, did an RSM and a Captain have to do what they did? Were there no individual fireteams available who have the knowledge and experience of working together and who would have been better suited to pulling this off? Why was the initial assualt sent into retreat?

Tourist

24th Jan 2007, 10:42

Interesting point of view, but it doesn't take away from the bravery displayed.
If you look too closely at most displays of heroism, you will probably find a planning fu@kup somewhere.
Almost by definition, heroism is above and beyond the call of duty, so if someone has to display it, something has probably gone wrong somewhere, I think......

GPMG

24th Jan 2007, 11:07

The guy wasnt questioning the bravery, but he was questioning the reasoning behind who went and how it came to be that we ended up in that situation.

airborne_artist

24th Jan 2007, 11:25

how it came to be that we ended up in that situation

I'm guessing that the lack of numbers in the BG and the lack of SH means that the action was started with few if any additional and immediately deployable assets in reserve should things get sticky. They got very sticky, and they had to make do with what they had on the ground. They also knew that with Ford incapacitated they had little or no time to wait.

Armchair 20/20 is great in these situations of course.

MaroonMan4

24th Jan 2007, 12:38

At last - someone is recognising that yes it was an incredible act of individual bravery but you just have to stop and think for a moment. We are led to believe that we are short of Apaches and AH aircrew, and also that an RSM/young officer were strapping themselves to the outside of the cockpit.
Just imagine the complete and utter fallout if (and if surprise was on their side, the laws of probability weren't) heaven forbid we had lost 2 Apache, plus crews and also the RSM - some of whom may have ended in orange boiler suits (I know not TB style, but you catch my drift) or being dragged through the streets of Gamisir Mogadishu style. And what if the subsequent recovery mission to these 'downed' AH crews had also lost lives as fighting patrol had to fight there way in and out back across the river.
I shudder at what could have been and although I do not question for one moment the bravery and these amazing flying skills and I would never pass judgement on anyones cockpit in the heat of battle.
But - lets learn from this episode. Is it really the way that UK plc wants to be doing business? Is this really the way that UK forces are rescued when things go wrong - if it is, then God help us as I think this particular AH JPR tactic back into the field of fire has just lost all of its nine lives.
Fundamentally, 'Tom' made a judgement call at that moment in time that both Senior Officers and the Media have provided positive spin. However, if it had gone wrong would 'Tom' have been supported or would his judgement or perceived 'wreckless' behaviour been all over the press.
I have said this again and again - this isn't about 'Tom' or the RSM or any of the operators - it is all about them being forced into that situation because there were no other options availible to him or those back in his HQ. He was forced to take those massive risks because of the lack of a suitable JPR/Immediate Combat Recovery plan, due mainly to lack of rotary wing assets. If , as reported, the CH47s were on another job (how many are out there!?!), then there are obviously too many tasks for the resources in theatre.
I reiterate, the huge risk that the Teenie Weenies and Royal Marines taken that day was a result as someone much further up the chain taking the whole lack of rotary support 'on risk' in the full knowledge that something like this was going to happen. If for one moment that the hierarchy believed that Afghanistan was not going to have a JPR scenario and the risk was acceptable needs to re-vist his/her risk register/matrix.
Armchair 20/20 is exactly what we want Artist, exactly what we want otherwise you can bet someone elses life that some Staff planner will pull this procedure out of the hat again and dare I say become a norm.
We need to acknowledge the individual acts of bravery (and I agree there is such a fine line) but we must identify, learnand apply every lesson that comes out of it other wise one day we will wake up to some horrendous/extremely sad news from theatre.

SASless

24th Jan 2007, 16:18

He went on to ask what the hell was a Captain and an RSM doing risking everything at the front line on a dangerous mission like that,

Errrrrr....uhhhhhh.....Leading.....perhaps?

ChristopherRobin

24th Jan 2007, 19:26

Now look chaps, I know some of you are in the RAF, but even a cursory glance at the medja surrounding this event would show that the Royals assaulted on the ground, rather than from the air, in their BVS-10 Vikings (http://data.primeportal.net/hoare/BVS10%20ATV(P)%20VIKING_files/bvwa1.jpg). It's likely that the Royals' reserve was similarly mounted and close by for reinforcement. Very possibly, by the time anything was discovered to be amiss, troops had withdrawn and the fastest way to effect a quick target recce and extraction was from the air - on a opportunity basis and with some element of surprise.

Chances are the whole thing was put together at a HQ where combat troops hadn't got back to yet or were guarding and it was first come first served.

We expect our officers and senior WOs to lead by example in the Army and RM and that's what happened here. Or would you prefer the senior blokes sent in 4 sprogs?

How very armchair of you!

Yes, it could have been a horrendous mess, but it wasn't. Sometimes it's Colonel H and sometimes it's Pte Beharry, but frankly second guessing it from the never-accurate media dishonours these chaps' achievements and for my money, when an officer (or RSM) becomes too valuable to risk, he's no longer an officer. And the same goes for Apaches.

MaroonMan hits the nail on the head with his views on the risk taken up the chain by this most mendacious of governments (cf. Des Browne's performance in the commons of late). Let's save our ire for them and people like GPMG's booty friend who's probably desperately jealous!

SASless

24th Jan 2007, 23:20

As Teddy Roosevelt once opined about those that criticize bold action in combat.....

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

GPMG

25th Jan 2007, 10:20

Let's save our ire for them and people like GPMG's booty friend who's probably desperately jealous!

Both myself and my mate are ex bootnecks, both have the utmost respect for what those guys did, however you have to question the way these events came to pass, planning, equipment resources etc.

If you can't understand the original question try and get a friend to explain it to you, you seem to be a special needs case.

Wader2

25th Jan 2007, 10:44

SASLess,

PM Please.

ChristopherRobin

25th Jan 2007, 17:39

If you can't understand the original question try and get a friend to explain it to you, you seem to be a special needs case.

Hmm reasoned debate indeed. Mind you, I'm not the so-called 'ex-booty' with the 'mate' who has this view, to which he's entitled if he actually exists. Sounds a bit like the 'mate' who's needs some advice from the clap doctor to me - you know the one that you're just asking on behalf of?

You sound like a walt to me gimpy. And your 'mate'.

GPMG

25th Jan 2007, 20:16

Take your head for a **** cockrobin, and it is pronounced G P M G not gimpy, if you can't be bothered to say it then don't bother to carry it.
Nice try with the walt accusation but totally incorrect the same ref my oppo who is very real.

Now bugger off and stop being a keyboard hero, probably as close as you would ever get.

Always_broken_in_wilts

25th Jan 2007, 22:40

GPMG,

CockRobin floats in and out of this means every now and then and ALWAYS spouts tosh which most folks grin at and treat as just the dribblings of one who maybe used to have faculties:rolleyes: ..........so dont take the bait fella:ok:

NURSE

25th Jan 2007, 23:01

at the end of the day the 4 guys who strapped themselves to the apaches deserve to be honoured and respected no mater what their rank or appointment. The idiots who sent them into this mess under resourced and out on a limb personally imho need to become unemployed very rapidally and thease guys are not in Afghanistan or even in uniform (though some of their uniformed yes men should be there as well)

parabellum

25th Jan 2007, 23:13

I happen to agree with the gist of Christopher's main post. There wasn't time for too much planning, thinking, re-thinking, re-planning etc. This was an opportunistic plan put together at great speed by those in a position to do it and act on it. Not the motto of the RM or the RE but famous nevertheless and in this instance I believe appropriate, it was a case of "Who Dares Wins".

ChristopherRobin

26th Jan 2007, 11:31

Thanks parabellum for actually reading my post. As for the gimp and ABIW (I wondered when you'd climb out of your hole), I think from now on I'll just spell both your names as R.E.M.F.

...

"My oppo who is very real"

quite. You'll be telling me to "be afwaid...be vewy afwaid" next will you?

Bought any "spare" medals from silvermans recently have you gimp?

timex

26th Jan 2007, 12:08

"My oppo who is very real"
quite. You'll be telling me to "be afwaid...be vewy afwaid" next will you?
Bought any "spare" medals from silvermans recently have you gimp?
CR you are a t**t, the guys you are slagging off are real, I just wonder who the real Walter is?

MaroonMan4

26th Jan 2007, 13:43

Christopher,
Please do not lead this thread into the gutter. I know exactly who you are, we have worked together before and although you do come across a tad bitter in that you were forced out of the cockpit against your will at an early point in your flying career in the 'interests of the Service' to pursue a Staff career. I would suggest that if you want to continue this little spat -and you get a kick out of it - then continue it by PMs, as although I can go off thread at times, you most certainly have the ability to quickly degenerate what up until now has been an open and informed discussion in and around the related subjects of bravery,risk taking, resources, JPR etc etc.
Please don't mud sling or bitch slap here - it really isn't you , doesn't do you any favours and I know that you mean well at heart and are vry professional in what you do now.

timex

27th Jan 2007, 15:18

One of the young guys story...

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2007/01/26/newsstory9222484t0.asp

SASless

27th Jan 2007, 15:35

“They asked for volunteers and everyone put their hands up,” he said.

A grandson asked of his grandfather who was in "E" Company of "Band of Brothers" fame...."Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?"

Granda's reply was...."No Son....but I was surrounded by Heroes."

Seems to apply to those Marines and Aircrew!

ChristopherRobin

27th Jan 2007, 17:16

MM4 - thanks for the advice. But I was only retaliating (in typical overmatch style it seems, given gimpee's limited ability to 'do' banter) to what the loser said in the first place. Read the posts and you'll see.

And I'm not bitter - life's good to me these days...

all the best, whoever you are!

timex

27th Jan 2007, 20:34

Sky News now (2130 Sat)...42 CDO in Afghanistan

GPMG

28th Jan 2007, 18:51

CR, I'm a bit tired at the moment but your accusations are a bit over the top.
Limited ability for banter? I'm fine for banter, got me into trouble many a time as I like to see the joke in things even when it's serious, got me through the tough times , if you can't stand piss taking then don't take the piss. But I'm sure you'll realize that calling someone a walt is pretty low, how am I to prove otherwise? And that accusation would wind any ex serviceman or women up if meant seriously.

And now I'm a loser am I? What I did was ask a couple of questions amongst all of the backslapping and good shows etc.

Yes it was an awesome effort, yes the people involved deserve respect and awe, they have it from myself, my mate and by the looks of it everyone. I asked why an RSM and a Capt RE were on the mission, that has been cleared up (Apaches at HQ, HQ personnel probably the only people available hence the 2 x sigs Marines). Good that’s understood.

But there are still other things to be answered about the operation and I'm sure they will be. Except of course why our military do not have access to the right kit (troop carrying helo's that can work at the altitudes that our troops are operational?)

Yeah you got a bite and I'd bite anytime some fool accuses me of being a liar or a fake I'm proud of my time in the corps, but the only reason that I read this particular forum is because it is populated by some knowledgeable and well informed people mixed with a bit of good humour but not childish. Shame it's not 100% across the board.

owe ver chute

29th Jan 2007, 11:05

For the arm-chair Generals just remember this. No plan, no matter how good, will survive contact with the enemy.

CR & GPMG (and mate) shame on you both for the mud slinging you've done on this forum.
MM4, I'm lost for words.

MaroonMan4

29th Jan 2007, 17:49

Owe Ver Chute,

Please check PMs

AHQHI656SQN

30th Jan 2007, 04:49

For everyone who has praised the actions of those involved during the events of 15 Jan 07, thank you. Every member of the Sqn is humbled. To those who choose to use those actions as a means of trying to score points or even sling mud at each other as OVC put it, shame on you. The family of Matt Ford might not view this forum, but word gets around. The events of the day will be revealed in the fulness of time, but not on this forum. Until then, if you have an opinion, you are entitled to it, but think before you spout.
There was not a shortage of CH, and even if there had been, would it have been any more suitable for the task? As most of you on this forum seem to know what the situation was, or are making assumptions about how it was. This isn't a trianing evolution, the enemy had a vote and it counted.

For the family of Matt Ford, our entire Sqn offer their sincere condolances for your loss. Though we didn't know Matt personally we have only heard good things about him. May he rest in peace.

If anybody would like to PM me, feel free.

Once again, thank you for the support.

Jackonicko

30th Jan 2007, 07:00

I'm sure that even those raising questions have nothing but respect for ALL of those involved in the operation.

Naturally (I guess) the media spotlight has fallen on those who 'rode' outside the Apaches, but this particular journo (and pilot) has even more respect for the aircrew who were involved in this magnificent op - planning it, and having to use their aircraft in an unfamiliar role.

I guess that using Apaches gave the enemy rather less warning than a Chinook thudding in would have done.

mutleyfour

30th Jan 2007, 08:22

Aren't medals won by people doing things out of the ordinary?

Well done 656, keep up the good work!

ChristopherRobin

30th Jan 2007, 08:22

owe ver chute - for the record, here is my original post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3087541&postcount=107) because you obviously didn't read it.
Now I challenge you to find anything in there disrespectful to the people on operations, or their actions.
Shame on me? Last time I checked, this wasn't a church and PPRUNE wasn't a religion. Everyone, and that includes GPMG and ABIW or whoever, is entitled to their opinion. If that opinion is flaming me, I reserve the right to reply. So so try not to get so sanctimonious.
All of us are profoundly awed of the action that took place. All of us regret that a life was lost. And if you disagree with what we have said to each other then for that I apologise, but such is the evolving nature of sequentially recording bulletin boards. But if anyone ever got truly slagged off, I think it could only be the government, waltish accusations notwithstanding, and for which I make a public retraction and apology to GPMG.

sprucemoose

30th Jan 2007, 14:49

So it's official then - despite Blair's buttock-clenched promise late last year that commanders could have anything else they wanted for Afghanistan, no-one high up seems to think that more helicopters are needed:

http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/flight_international/archive/2007/01/30/6436.aspx

Surely 20 helos in theatre is not enough to provide the support that should be available? Or am I wrong?

MaroonMan4

1st Feb 2007, 12:43

I have received numerous PMs regarding my comments, thank you - so much better than venting your spleen in public.
Just to make sure that it is publicly acknowledged, the individual personal courage of those crews/personnel that day that made those tactical decisions at that specific moment in time of the battle was never in question. Brave indeed.
However, I believe that there may be some mixed messages with many believing that the CH 47/'twin engined Tq monster' was not suitable for the job.

I can readily accept this point of view (having no love for either the 'Freaks' or the 'Old Queen of the skies', but those in the know or those that aren't who just Google CSAR-X, will see that the US obviously believe that the 'happy hooker' (as they refer to their CH-47s) is more than suited in their opinion as they have just procured 141 of them for this role after a quite exhaustive tendering process looking at a number of platforms.

If availible (and there lies the question), an Apache/CH 47 mix would have been a pretty potent rescue package that has seemed to have worked so far in theatre for some of the other recovery style missions.

mutleyfour

1st Feb 2007, 14:34

Quite correct MM4 but that doesn't account for those Ad Hoc moments when a little bit of Harry Black will suffice to keep everything together.

Sometimes you just have to make do with the tools you have available at that time, and that is what us Britains are famous for, and I know that doesn't or shouldn't excuse anybody, its just simple fact.

MaroonMan4

1st Feb 2007, 14:55

Mutley,

Totally 100% agree - lets just learn from this episode so that Harry Black becomes the exception rather than the norm and that when the commanders on the ground go to that well worn staff puke college phrase of 'tool box' to get some 'tools' that there is something for them to use besides bodge tape.

But then I suppose if the tool box was empty except for Harry Black, they could always go their 'golf bag' to see what that had in it...:)

nigegilb

1st Feb 2007, 15:01

Was this a combat rescue mission?

timex

1st Feb 2007, 17:04

Was this a combat rescue mission?

No, this was a "hot" reaction to a mate possibly still alive close to taliban. No Sp Helo's close enough to react.

MaroonMan4

1st Feb 2007, 21:18

Nigegilb,

Just Google my friend - JWP 3-66, page 1-3. This aspect of definitions is not classified and will not jeopardise future missions. IMHO I believe it was an Immediate Combat Recovery conducted with the resources that were 'immediately' availible to the commander on the ground at that moment in time

But hey, I wasn't there and what would I know, but may help you out?

b. Combat Recovery Operations. CR Operations is a generic term for
recovery operations comprising the following elements:
(1) Combat Recovery. CR is the recovery of isolated personnel in
distress and/or equipment, from an environment in which a threat is
posed by hostile interference, who are not trained and/or equipped to
receive CSAR.
(2) Combat Search and Rescue. The recovery of isolated personnel
in distress, from an environment in which a threat is posed by hostile
interference, who are trained and equipped for CSAR.
(3) Special Forces Operations. Special Forces (SF) operations will
not be covered within this JWP. However it should be noted that,
following a strategic decision to commit UK SF personnel to a task, SF
would conduct unconventional assisted recovery tasks within their own
planning and execution criteria.

nigegilb

1st Feb 2007, 21:34

MM4 thanks. The reason I ask is that in March last year I wrote to the Defence Committee questioning the ability of UK Armed Forces to conduct CSAR Ops, questioning the CSAR support provided to troops/airmen in Afg and asking if the US had agreed to provide CSAR assets. Ingram refused to disclose any information. I asked because I was close to an incident in the Kosovo war where no agreement existed with US about CSAR and my colleagues were subsequently left on the ground for hours watching the wreck of their aircraft burn. Since then work has been done on Brit capability in this area, but my concerns were not alleviated by the Govt response. I am acutely aware of not disclosing anything that might be of use to the enemy but I was alarmed by the photos of those very brave men searching for their colleague.

MaroonMan4

1st Feb 2007, 21:43

Nigeglib,

I understand your question totally and as you have probably gathered I echoe your concerns, but sadly I have absolutely no idea of what the JPR arrangements are for this theatre of operations and to be truthful if I did I most certainly wouldn't disclose them.

So not wishing to let anyone get off the hook for not resourcing properly, I can wholly understand why you were given the stonewalling.

However, if you lobby someone that has the right security classification and trust them to do your business, then you may have better results.

Archimedes

1st Feb 2007, 22:58

The Select Committee may (re)visit the issue in their forthcoming inquiry into operations in Afghanistan (details here (http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/defence_committee/def070131___no__18.cfm)) - and they're welcoming submissions, so perhaps time to write to them once more, Nigegilb?

nigegilb

1st Feb 2007, 23:11

Thanks for the heads up. Frustrating thing about the Defence Committee is that the Govt regularly uses the "lives of British servicemen at risk" card, as a reason not to answer questions. The Chairman took my concerns seriously and asked the questions but Ingram as usual hid behind secrecy. If anyone wants any points or concerns raised I am familiar with the system so to speak and can help out if required.

Two's in

2nd Feb 2007, 00:19

Thread creep amber caption - Although the USAF CSAR community are very pleased to be getting the 47F, some have no problem admitting there are situations where it will be either too large, or too much of a physical target compared to the HH-60. The only point being that just because today's situation calls for bags of lift and torque into mountains above 10 grand with air supremacy an assumption, that might not always be the case, and a mixed fleet gives you infinitely more flexibility. Despite Tony's best efforts, we won't always be fighting in Helmand.

MaroonMan4

2nd Feb 2007, 06:17

Twos In
Totally agreed, so if CH-47 wasn't the platform for the task, then what is - ok, HH-60/Blackhawk - so where was it?
Off thread in that where ever in the world, at what ever temperature, at whatever height any platform must surely be better suited to Combat Recovery than an AH.
This does not detract from the 'slap on the back' to the crews that bravely did the best they could with what they had that day, but surely we owe our lads and lasses more than the prospect of recovery by riding an Apache bare back!
If it is an autogyro or an R-22, 'Little Bird' or an EC 135, or A109 or a Sea King or Merlin or CH-47 or a Hook - I believe that this experience was a timely reminder to all to ensure that we have the correct resources in all current and future operational areas in order not to force crews/commanders into having to take decisions/risks that given other options would not normally make.
As all of the other threads have highlighted, along with the NAO report, the whole lack of lift is just being at worst ignored or just taken on risk. Even if the cupboard is bare, then JPR (in all its forms) should be readily avilible to commanders and if the Rolls Royce version isn't realistic in this budget fuelled country, then atleast lets provide something that should be atleast a BMW and not a Trabant.

Valiantone

2nd Feb 2007, 16:43

I attended L/Cpl Ford's funeral yesterday, the town council went to the trouble to open the town's civic centre up after the funeral, for the family and friends. And all I can say is, that whatever part of the very badly underfunded part of the British Armed Forces you are a member of you still do a great job.

That means all of you:)

R.I.P L/Cpl Mathew Ford 1/8/76 - 15/1/07

Back to the non pilot parts of the forum, me thinks:E

V1

HEDP

2nd Feb 2007, 17:16

A thorough well done to all concerned!
May I point out to those that debate that there is a difference between Immediate Personnel Recovery (IPR) and Joint Personnel Recovery (JPR).
The first requires those involved to make best use of what is immediately to hand, maybe AH, maybe SH.
The second would require dedicated assets and as such these may not be readily available for some time after the event.
For an Air Force that works over long distances and perhaps into a threat area JPR/CSAR would probably be the technique that would take precedence.
For AH/BH/SH than at the tactical level there is continuous planning for IPR because at close quarters with the enemy time is important, as in this case.
Again, a superb demonstration of IPR although I do look forward to some JPR assets in theatre as well,
HEDP