Non windows operating systems

[longarm]

Can somebody give me an idiots guide of Linus based operating systems. What are the advantages compared to Xp or Vista. In particular as a home user what would the advantages be for me (if any). Will normal windows based software (e.g Office) work with them. I've looked at Fedora and Debian, any others of that people can recommend. Thanks in advance.

[slim_slag]

Ho Ho.
Let me first say I don't care which one is better between Microsoft/Open Source, I simply want something that works and am aware of the concept of total cost of ownership.

The advantage of linux is that it is free.

Now, what do you do next.

Download the live CD of Ubuntu and run it on a machine you want to play with. See if it works and recognises all your hardware. If it doesn't then decide how much work you want to put into making it work as it might not be trivial. If you don't know computers I would recommend you put it away, go back to windows, and wait until the next live CD version comes out in a few months.

If it works then play away, it will not install on your system unless you tell it to. For office programs, there is a product called openoffice which you can download and run on your windows system. See if you like that. If it works for you then that's a plus as that is what you will be using if you go to linux.

My personal opinion is that to use linux you either need to be a hobbyist or a large organisation who can control their hardware and afford a linux person to make things work.

Linux can be totally frustrating and you never know when it is going to hit you. When you work out your hourly rate then it's not free at all. Of course if you are a hobbyist who likes these things then that doesn't matter, and in those cases you can get a pretty decent system up and running over which you have almost total control.
Depends if that is what you want.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

For office programs, there is a product called openoffice which you can download and run on your windows system. See if you like that.
Some do. some don't. One of my kids tried it for a few days then said "please can I have the real Office on my new computer".

[Keef]

Linux is "fun", "interesting" and "competent", but you do need to speak pretty good Geek to get it to work properly.

I've got Fedora, Debian, Kubuntu, SuSe, and Knoppix on my "playing" PC. They are all a lot faster than Windows on the same machine, but they all needed a fair bit of complicated "machine code" to get the last bits to work.

If I had to pick one of those, it would be Fedora. It was the easiest of the lost to install, and the only things that didn't work "out of the box" were the Midi play facility and the DVD player.

[Mac the Knife]

I am a bit prejudiced, but I do think slim and Keef are a teeny bit too negative.

I did 2 installs last week for people, one of Mepis on a P4/512MB and the other of Kubuntu on a P3/800/512. Both installs went without a hiccough and I didn't have to provide any geek input at all. The P4 guy remarked, "Well, I could have done that myself...". All the hardware got picked up without problems and the only configuration in both was to fill in the email servers (which you'd also have to do in Windows). Note that with Windows you have to scrabble around finding all the CDs with all the drivers that you put away "somewhere safe". Current Linuxes have drivers for almost everything built in and it's only wireless cards that cause problems at times now.

Have to say that I've never, ever had to mess around with machine code to get any Linux (or Windows) install working. Sounds very odd, but then Keef does seem to find problems that nobody else has ever experienced.

The other consideration is that your Linux install will, as well as the operating system, install a whole slew of stuff that in Windows you'd have to install separately (Office equivalent, drawing programs, etc., etc.)

Yes, if you expect OpenOffice to be indistinguishable from MS Office you are likely to be disappointed. But it's very very similar and will do pretty much everything MS Office can (and some things MS Office can't). But if you're incapable of making even quite small adaptations to the way you work then by all means spend your money (MS Office 2003 Student and Teacher Edition/$129.99 - MS Office 2003 Professional Edition/$486.13).

Yes, Linux looks and behaves a little differently - if you insist on a free Windows clone then don't go there (though Linspire comes pretty close). But it's a bit like being given a Citroen and complaining that the indicators are in a different place from your Opel and that the dashboard doesn't look the same! And it runs well on quite modest hardware, which XP never did and Vista certainly won't (it's lightning fast on good hardware).

It ain't perfect and your PC still won't read your mind, but it don't cost anything and the freedom from worry about viruses, trojans, adware and malware without having to install expensive and system-borking anti-malware programs is a huge plus.

My picks for the newbie? Well, not Fedora, which isn't that userfriendly, but Mepis (free)- http://www.mepis.org/ - or Kubuntu (free) - http://www.kubuntu.org/ - or Linspire (modest cost).

My advice? Get a live CD and run it, see how you feel (just remember that the live CD will run VERY much more slowly than a proper install, especially on older gear).

[slim_slag]

I am a bit prejudiced, but I do think slim and Keef are a teeny bit too negative.OK....It ain't perfect and your PC still won't read your mind:rolleyes: Well, I couldn't put it better myself :ok:

I suspect when Keef means 'machine code' he means having to drop to a command line and manually edit configuration files using an unintuitive text editor. This is a significant possibility when dealing with Linux and it is not at all intuitive or easy if your only experience with PCs is windows. Windows does all that stuff for you with a mouse click, generally. Another problem is that the supplied help files are generally not much use. If you want decent support it comes from a bulletin board, and quite often the only support you can find out there comes with instructions to do things on the command line.My advice? Get a live CD and run it, see how you feelWhich is essentially the same as what the "negative ones" said earlier ;)

[matelot]

I'm with MTK. I run SimplyMEPIS 6.0. Totally free, works straight out of the box, detected all my hardware, and tons of apps. You can run it in RAM as a LiveCD to see what it's about, then go for the install. But do read about what you intend to do first.

I triple boot with ME, XP, and SM6 as default. It's not meant to replace Windows: it's an alternative OS that gives you control of your computer back. You'll lose nothing and stand to gain a lot just by running the LiveCD. :ok:

[25F]

Gertrude - how many weeks pocket money is "the real Office"?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Gertrude - how many weeks pocket money is "the real Office"?
Given that it's going to cost something like £70,000 to get each kid through college, assuming that universities have finished being privatised by the time mine get there, then your question is so irrelevant as not to be worth looking up the answer.

Or don't you care about your kids' education that much?

[Mac the Knife]

Aw...Gertie, don't be so shy!

Microsoft Office Ultimate 2007-------------$679/$539 upgrade
Microsoft Office Professional 2007---------$499/$329 upgrade
Microsoft Office Small Business 2007-----$449/$279 upgrade
Microsoft Office Standard 2007------------$399/$239 upgrade
Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007--$149/no upgrades

OpenOffice 2.1 + regular upgrades --------$0/$0

:ok:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So what? If she won't use something that costs 0p then it isn't worth anything to us, is it.

Sometimes, y'know, you get what you pay for.

(There's good and bad software, whether paid for or open source. In particular in the database arena I'm perfectly happy to recommend Access, SQL Server ... and MySQL, each for a suitable application, horses for courses.

However I have come across some utterly crap open source software, just like I've come across some utterly crap proprietory software. An advantage of open source software here is that you can see the source code, so you can confirm that it really is utter crap, you don't have to rely just on its behaviour to form that judgement.

Most of the open source software I've come across is neither totally wonderful nor utter crap, it's just a bit half-arsed and amateur - usable after a fashion most of the time, but you'd think twice about making it mission critical. I think that's what the kid reckoned to OpenOffice - she didn't want to spend time fighting the software that would be better spent deciding on the content of the coursework essay.)

[Saab Dastard]

GtW:

Or don't you care about your kids' education that much?

Cheap shots really don't have much place here.

SD

[Keef]

I suspect when Keef means 'machine code' he means having to drop to a command line and manually edit configuration files using an unintuitive text editor.

Spot on! Especially smb.conf and fstab. I've become quite expert at the codes in those two, now. The editor itself (I use Kwrite) is OK; it's the codes that have to be entered into those files that gave me a headache. The rudimentary editor that has to be used for sudoers - is not exactly "user friendly".

The various Linuxes on my machine installed easily and with no problems - to something over 99% of the way. I may have been unlucky, but I had "challenges" of varying difficulty with all of them. Asking for help on Linux forums had variable results - some extremely helpful and solved the problem instantly, some not only unhelpful but downright rude too. I suppose that happens in every walk of life.

Mac - I think you need to take a look at Fedora Core 5 or later. It's stable, user-friendly, installed with the fewest hiccups I had with any Linux, and is the one that's running now on that machine 100 miles away.

Kubuntu didn't come close for me in terms of features, facilities, ease of installing added software, or user interface. The Kubuntu version was more recent than the Fedora, too.

I've not tried Mepis - I'll have to remove one of the older unused distros and try it.

For those who like trying lots of different software, I found Debian the most flexible - it runs Kpackage very sweetly, which means you can download and install software quickly and easily. Unfortunately, something glitched in my Debian installation while installing an update, and trashed it. So I'm a little more cautious with that one.

Would I use Linux rather than switch to Vista? You bet I would!

[Mac the Knife]

Sigh....I repeat,

"....if you expect OpenOffice to be indistinguishable from MS Office you are likely to be disappointed. But it's very very similar and will do pretty much everything MS Office can (and some things MS Office can't). But if you're incapable of making even quite small adaptations to the way you work then by all means spend your money..."

If Gertie's progeny struggles with the small differences in how-you-do-things between Word 2003 and OpenOffice 2 then she is likely to find the transition to Word 2007 (with it's radically revamped interface) insuperable.

Keef rather gives the impression that one has to be constantly tinkering with arcane configuration files to keep Linux going, which is unfortunate.

smb.conf is used to fine-tune network communications with Microsoft SMB based networks - it used to be a bit of a struggle to get going, but most modern distros have a nice GUI that lets you easily share or unshare stuff and control permissions without (gasp!) editing a textfile.

fstab controls how and what drives are mounted on booting - you don't normally have to change it unless you're installing additional drives, and if you know enough to do that then you can probably cope with the syntax.

As to editing sudoers (used to fine-tune who can do what) - on a home system there's absolutely NO need to change it unless you have very special multiuser needs, in which case you're a sysadmin and learn the syntax anyway. And you don't HAVE to use vi to edit it either (vi is obscure but certainly NOT rudimentary!).


And I'm sorry, but the fact is that virtually no really "mission-critical" runs on Microsoft software, it's just too unpredictable - mission-critical stuff runs on stripped down versions of UNIX, Linux, or in-house OSes.

NASA uses Open Source Software to control the Mars Voyager probes and for:

Aerodynamics Applications
Antenna Design and Satellite Communications
Artificial Intelligence and Expert Systems
Bioinformatics
CAD CAM CAE
Chemistry and Thermodynamics
Crack Growth and Fatigue Analysis
Digital Signal Processing
Engineering Applications
Failure Analysis
Finite Element Analysis
Laser Applications
Metallurgy Software
Meteorological Applications
Navigation and Radar
Optics and Lasers
Optimization
Semiconductor Devices
Spacecraft Design
Visualization and Virtual Reality
X-Ray Spectroscopy

See http://www.nasatech.com/software/index.html where you can download source for all of this.

You can download the public Version of the software NASA Uses to Operate Mars Rovers here - http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=910

"...usable after a fashion most of the time..." :E

[slim_slag]

There is absolutely no shortage of mission critical UNIX/LINUX applications out there, however the same can be said of Windows. And I'd say NASA qualifies as a large organisation who can control their hardware and afford a linux person to make things work. Funnily enough I first came across Linux back in c 1994 when a mate was working on control software for the NASA space shuttle engine, he was using Linux, and it was a real b1tch to use, but it was young. So it's history at NASA is quite long, for computer stuff.

But what about people asking for advice on a general bulletin board? A home user who is used to Windows and who has heard of Linux and wants to try it out?

Well, go for the distro which everybody else uses, as all your real help is going to come from the community, so you want the community to be as large as possible. So (K)Ubuntu would be the one to go for, now. IMO of course. Learn to use google as you will need it.

Unless you just want to use the machine as a basic workstation you are going to have to drop to a command prompt at some stage. UNIX's strength is as a server solution and it's probably where a home user might want to use it in the home. A typical good use would be as a file server, somewhere to store all your mp3 files and pictures. You can set up a RAID 1 system for just the cost of an additional hard drive, RAID 5 for the cost of two. There are other uses of course, just using this as an example.

But how easy is it?

To set up a share in windows is trivial, right click and 10 seconds later it's done.

To set up RAID in windows (a more expensive version that supports RAID, I don't think you can do it in home) you can do it with the mouse, longest task is copying the data to the second disk. There is a load of help out there if you needed it, but you don't because it's intuitive.

In Linux. Well, what a palava to do such a basic task.

I haven't yet found a way to set up in Linux a simple file share which I can use from a windows box without having to drop to the command line to set up a samba user. Maybe Mac knows one, but I don't. If there is a way then why isn't it easy for me to find it? How can I then change the password of the share user without dropping to the command line? In windows it just 'works' when the password changes. I am all ears for a GUI solution as I don't know what that is.

Setting up RAID on an already installed Linux box. Well, that's rocket science that is.

As for open office? Very nice that it's free, but does it work with the "real thing"? Can I be sure that my open office documents will always, always, always work with those sent to me by business partner (or my mum) who uses the 'real thing'? Office has some weird stuff in it, and I just don't want to rely on an open source version in case it doesn't work. An interesting take on open office can be found here.

If this suite's a success, why is it so buggy? (http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,16376,1660763,00.html)

So try Linux by all means, but don't expect it to be as easy to use a Windows.

[Mac the Knife]

"I am all ears for a GUI solution as I don't know what that is."

Good grief!

In Mepis (and KDE generally)

Samba user: Start > Settings > Samba > Users > Add

Share folder: Right click on folder > Properties > Share > Add

Exactly how much easier do you want it to be?

And no, OpenOffice can't handle some complex MSOffice documents, but then neither can older versions of MSOffice (backward compatibility of MSOffice is notoriously poor so that punters are forced to upgrade to the latest and greatest). Actually, OpenOffice also handles older MSOffice documents with aplomb and will even open corrupted documents that MSOffice refuses (Tip: good rescue system).

Note that MSOffice documents are stored in a secret proprietary MS format, so OpenOffice in fact does extraordinarily well. To get away from vendor "lock-in" (and MSs' predatory pricing), the world is moving to Open Document Format [ODF], so the playing-fields may soon be levelled.

The "problem" is that a fair number of Microsoft users are disturbed that any other operating system should exist (except maybe Apple for the oddballs) and even more confused that several of the alternative offerings are free.

The braver ones try it, and after a quick nervous pokearound they pronounce them unusable and go back to the Windows womb. Forgetting that they also had to learn how to do things in Windows, they are upset that Linux isn't a free Windows clone.

I can understand why Bill Gates wants there to be only one operating system and only one Office suite in the universe, but quite why so many ordinary Windows users feel the same way is bizarre. Maybe deep down they know that somewhere along the line they've been gypped by a megacorp that does NOT have their best interests at heart.

By the same argument, Boeing should be the only large aircraft vendor ('cos conversion to Airbus is SO difficult).

So please, stick to Microsoft Windows, pay the money, put up with the malware, the proprietary formats and the way MS thinks you should work.

For the rest of you, there are excellent alternatives.

VISTA: Viruses Infections Spyware Trojans Adware :E

[Gertrude the Wombat]

And no, OpenOffice can't handle some complex MSOffice documents, but then neither can older versions of MSOffice (backward compatibility of MSOffice is notoriously poor so that punters are forced to upgrade to the latest and greatest).
This is bollocks, actually, typical Linux weenie FUD.

It was certainly true up to Office 97 - you can't open a Word 97 document in Word 2, I won't argue with that - but since then, apart from Access, things have been rather different. On my network we're running versions from 97 to 2003 without really caring which version is used to work on which document.

[Saab Dastard]

Mac, Slim, Gertrude,

Seconds out, round 2!

Seriously, I think that you've all expressed your views and I don't think that you will ever be able to convince each other of the errors of your respective ways.

So please, can we let this rest (until the next time)?

Save PPRuNe bandwidth and all that.

Cheers,

SD

[slim_slag]

"I am all ears for a GUI solution as I don't know what that is."
Good grief!
In Mepis (and KDE generally)
Samba user: Start > Settings > Samba > Users > Add
Share folder: Right click on folder > Properties > Share > Add
Exactly how much easier do you want it to be?But Mac, I am using Gnome. Shouldn't you have asked that question? You display the attitude of a linux fanatic being told Linux might not be quite perfect.

I will install KDE and get back, that's only because I know what KDE is, and how to install it, and then how to launch it. That in itself is non intuitive when you are used to windows. Then I will get back to you.

You also totally ignored my example of RAID.

And you agree that open office is not a good solution. I don't expect Office 97 to read office 2003 files, why should it? It is six years older.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I don't expect Office 97 to read office 2003 files, why should it?
But it does (to at least a limited extent).

I just created a file on an XP box using Word 2003 and then opened it on a Win98 box using Word 97, and it worked fine.

Obviously it isn't going to handle features that didn't exist in 97, but what it does not do is refuse to open the document because it doesn't recognise the file format.

(As I said earlier, I know that this doesn't work with Access. I haven't tried Excel or Powerpoint.)

[Mac the Knife]

And you agree that open office is not a good solution.

I said nothing of the sort. OpenOffice is an excellent solution, I dropped Office 2003 for OOo six months ago and have yet to find an old MS document that I can't open.

"..non intuitive when you are used to windows.."

Precisely. It isn't a Windows clone. Windows only seems intuitive because you know it so well. A lot of things in Windows are actually not at all intuitive to real newbies. Linux/KDE does many things a little differently (so does a Mac/Tiger). But once you get used to it, it's easy.

Once upon a time people used many different word processing programs (Lotus Word Pro, WordPerfect, Nota Bene, Wordstar) and were quite used to the idea that different apps behaved somewhat differently. Same for spreadsheets and presentation packages [1]. It's only since Microsoft bought out or squashed any commercial opposition that a choiceless monoculture developed and people started thinking that the Microsoft way was the only way to do things. This hasn't actually been good for any of us, even Microsoft. Now, for the first time in a long time, MS has some genuine competition, which is good - MS is having to get off it's fat ass and try to make some real improvements.

[1] The bugbear of course was document interchange, but if ODF had then been an ISO standard (as it is now), that difficulty wouldn't have existed.

I like the freedoms that Linux gives me, but I'm far from a fanatic. I'm well aware of the residual deficiencies in the UI (and participate in usability testing and discussion to improve it). Personally I'm wary of the FSF's planned move to GPL3 and the FSF generally - I think they're far too doctrinaire for their own good (which makes me a GNU apostate!).

Linux isn't perfect, but it has made stunning strides in the last 3 years. Already it is far more stable and secure than Windows, within another year or so the usability will be better as well.

:ok:

PS: My only experience of setting up RAID is on FreeBSD (where it isn't difficult), so I can't comment on about it on either GNU/Linux or MS Windows. Few home/ordinary users even know what a RAID array is, let alone need one.

PPS: With regard to the link "If this suite's a success, why is it so buggy?" that slim posted, it's worth noting that the article dates from 2005 and likely was about OOo 2.0 beta - we're now at OOo 2.1 stable, so it's hardly germane. Nevertheless, the author did admit, "But, for what it's worth, I still think OpenOffice may be better for books than Microsoft Word."

[Cheerio]

But once you get used to it, it's easy.

I switched to Linux about 2 years ago, there was a little pain in the transition, but I persevered, and you never stop learning. I'm just a home user, (a sort of sub-geek - the same type as finds this forum interesting) but now I have a set up that is easily the equal of XP for user-friendliness and functionality. If you are not fussed about playing games on your PC then I'd go for it, if only for the challenge.

[Keef]

Just to clarify: my "problems" with Linux were at the last stage of the initial installation and setup. I have several machines networked, and the old PC that runs Linux has three hard drives, with Windows and several flavours of Linux on it. It also has a DVDROM and a CDRW. The DVDROM is SCSI.

Some Linuxes had no problem with the network, and some had no problem with the multiple hard drives or the SCSI. None of them got it all right straight off, and I had to edit smb.conf or fstab or both. Once that was done, then Linux ran flawlessly and far faster than Windows.

I also tried running a MIDI editor and player - that was trickier, but isn't something most Linux users would want to do.

I would recommend Linux to anyone - but with the proviso that you may need a little techie help to get it working.

Open Office has managed fine with every MS Office file I've thrown at it - with the exception of MS Publisher stuff. But then, different versions of MS Publisher have the same problems.

[slim_slag]

Fair enough Mac.

PS your solution didn't work :{

[Mac the Knife]

Hi slim_

Sorry 'bout that!

Lets go to the first site I get when I put "samba add user" into Google - http://www.samba.netfirms.com/addusers.htm - although it's at the command line they do step you through it with illustrations.

The index page for that site - http://www.samba.netfirms.com/index.htm - has a very easy and lucid guide to SMB networking between Linux and Windows generally.

Allbest

Mac :ok:

[BOFH]

C:\Geek!
-bash-2.05b$Luser!
C:\Nerd!
-bash-2.05b$Fanboi!

I love OS wars. :)

IIRC, this thread started off by asking what sort of Lunix to use. It follows that we are not going to need to discuss Windows except in by way of comparison.

Longarm - whichever distro you take (Mepis is the best of the lot, Kubuntu a close second), painstakingly document all your userid/password combinations (e.g. for Pprune), backup, backup, backup, and migrate your emails, contacts and anything else you might need to somewhere you can get them from Linux, be it a FAT32 partition, DVD, etcetera.

Find out how to shrink your (presumably) Windows partition, (an excellent tutorial is here: http://phoenix.calpoly.edu/~kvoelker/cgi-bin/counter/cis122/dual-boot.cgi ), create a couple more for Linux, download, and install. Before the grin goes off your face, log in to everywhere you need to (using the userid/password combos mentioned earlier). Allow a week to get over the urges to boot into Windows and a lifetime to learn the intricacies of this splendid OS.

Oh, and backup.

You are then be set up to join the geeks, squeezing zits and doing sudoku on the Tube.

BOFH
//IEFBR14