Night trg w/o lights

[tmmorris]

A Puma has just beetled past over my house without any sort of lighting (in the dark, naturally). Is this allowed, or did he perhaps have a problem? I thought lights off training was only in segregated areas - or should I be looking more carefully out of my PA28 at night..?

Tim

[L J R]

Who is more of a fool, the Puma driver at night or the PA-28 driver at night?

[mayorofgander]

It's the latest in a series of energy saving moves by the helicopter fleet to claw back some vital overspend. Next on the agenda is only using those rotating thingys above the driver's head for 50 seconds of every minute. Should result in a significant fuel saving. And if you leave anything made of kevlar back in the cupboard, there is a significant weight saving too!!!:eek:
Rumours that we are just shouting 'BANG' at the enemy have so far, been proven unfounded.:bored:

MOG:cool:

PS. The above ain't true...I think!!!

[timex]

Who is more of a fool, the Puma driver at night or the PA-28 driver at night?

The Puma guy with no lights (unless auth'd), the PA28 guy was on the ground at home...

[Heywood Djablowme]

.....if it was dark and he was 'dark', how do you know what it was?

[Spugford]

Flying at night w/o lights ok if in close/trail formation. Someone in the formation must carry the 'flash' at all times.

That's what we work to in my world anyway.

:cool:

[Hummingfrog]

Many moons ago when 18 Sqn flew proper helicopters the then Boss ( White Tornado) decided that the whole squadron would return to Big G at night with no lights. A night stream navex was worked out with a/c leaving from their flight hides at 5 min intervals about 16 helicopters in total.

This seemed a fine idea:eek: All went well and I didn't see another helicopter until I arrived at Big G - the scary bit was although we left the exercise area in the order Pegasus 1-16 we didn't arrive at Big G in that order:E

HF

[Skidkid]

Aaaah memories!

Whatever happened to the 'White Tornado'?

[neilmac]

Tim,

Hi ya check ur PMs

Neil

[tmmorris]

.....if it was dark and he was 'dark', how do you know what it was?

There's a lot of light pollution here; it was a damp night, lowish cloudbase, so there was a background glow; he was clearly silhouetted; I teach ac rec to cadets; I live near a station where Pumas live; it was heading in that direction... need any more?

There were plenty of other ac around but he wasn't in formation - I saw him clearly against an otherwise empty patch of sky. There was nothing within, say, 1/4 mile in any direction, except possibly astern of him, but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on?

Tim

[ProfessionalStudent]

There was nothing within, say, 1/4 mile in any direction, except possibly astern of him, but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on?
Tim

Tim,

Not nessecelery. Let's just say that at least one of the formation will have lights on.:ok:

[JNo]

but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on?

No it's the number two (in a two-ship before the pedants butt in) who has the lights on, as he has to scan through looking at the number one and if the number one has got lights on especially a strobe it wouldn't do his vis any favours.

There were plenty of other ac around but he wasn't in formation
Trust me, he was :E

[Mmmmnice]

Tim - I suspect the only problem the Plastic Pig driver had was not knowing where the light switch was - or how it operated possibly?

Re: the WT - he didn't make it to any of the 18(B) Sqn reunions that he was invited to - not sure why. No doubt he has retired on the proceeds of his time with Annington Homes

[SARREMF]

Chaps,
Not wishing to teach people to suck eggs but it is perfectly legal to fly lights out at night - and as a singleton - as long as you NOTAM the route. Then every other low level air user should know you are about and avoid you. This applies to dedicated user areas as well just in case someone mentions that next.
Of course he might just have not put them on by accident! It does happen!

Dooh, mmmnice got that bit out before me

[Skidkid]

So -

What does a police or SAR pilot do?

Cancel a priority task because someone is NOTAM'd to be training, lights out, in the area that they need to operate in?

[360BakTrak]

Nope...they're a category A flight, therefore have priority over just about everything else in the sky.

[Skidkid]

Absolutely Right

But,

Does the lights-out training flight pilot know that the police/SAR aircraft is there, probably not!

Is he/she on the same frequency, probably not!

Can the police/SAR pilot see the lights-out aircraft, probably not!

[the_flying_cop]

Nope...they're a category A flight, therefore have priority over just about everything else in the sky.


Actually Cat B for most of the time, to reduce inconvenience to fellow aviators.

.....as much as we would like priority at all times lol

TFC

[360BakTrak]

.....can the mil 'lights-out' aircraft see the lights of the police/helimed heli? Probably.

[H Peacock]

When I first flew the Puma we always had Nav lights on, day and night. Now this was in the days when we did lots of night work, but didn't do much NVG (you know when the auth sheet was filled up with all the guff out of GASOs about exactly what you were going to do!)

Anyway, in everything I've flown since (fixed wing) I have always felt the desire to do the same, ie Nav lights on day and night. I'm frequently told that they should not be used during the day; is this correct? Having observed other fleets there appears to be a bit of a mix. Most of the Tonkas that I see during the day do have Nav lights on.

:)

[Skidkid]

360BakTrak

True, but what if the police/SAR aircraft is approaching the lights-out aircraft from the rear? Who would be held to blame should a collision or airprox occur?

H Peacock

There is nothing in aviation law that prevents you from displaying nav lights by day. It is a very sensible flight safety precaution, particularly in dull weather conditions. It also stops you forgetting to switch them back on at dusk.

There are, however, some cheapskate operators that encourage their crews not to use them in order to save light bulbs.

[360BakTrak]

It's certainly a tricky one......I would suppose the one with the better lawyer!:} I would suspect until something serious happens, nothing will get down about avoiding such a scenario.

[jonesthepilot]

Lights out in the dark? Must have been a woman pilot! If they fly like they drive they are always the last folk to put on their lights as darkness falls:ok:

[LXGB]

Interesting thread, couple of thoughts;

Hopefully the lights out aircraft would be squawking so the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS if not visual.

Also, if operating in an area of regular military helo activity, a call to the ATC unit working the mil traffic (if known) would help, e.g. LFA10 / Wattisham (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/LowFlying/LFAs/LowFlyingArea10.htm).

LXGB

[ProfessionalStudent]

And you can operate lights out if NOTAMd. Ergo, you should know roughly where the no lights ac is (as the route and timings are in the NOTAM). Plus it is likely that a civvy would be talking to ATC - especially the polizei as they'll want any traffic info (you would hope). I know our cousins at Mildenhall often go cross-country sans lights and they're always NOTAMd - I know my eyes were always out on stalks and I'd be talking to ATC if I was in their vicinity.

So... If the aircraft with lights hit the ac without lights from behind, the former is at fault. Providing he/she had read the NOTAMs. And if they didn't read them, samey same.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Close study of NOTAMs certainly happens at a certain Police/AA unit somewhere between Lyneham and Salisbury Plain. That unit also possesses mapping showing standard military routes/corridors. I suspect that if I was behind a lights-out a/c on my occasional shifts there, then:

a. I probably wouldn't have much, if any, overtake speed on most military helis.

b. I would probably be at least 300 feet higher than that heli, and

c. The light from my anti-colls (I'd even consider white strobes if near a NOTAM'd route, task permitting) would still be evident to him/her even though I'm in his/her high 6.

All of which makes it an acceptable risk to my crew and me in our public service aircraft, so I'm happy to continue to share the same airspace. Thanks for your concern.

[Skidkid]

Professional Student

you should know roughly where the no lights ac is

If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is.

as the route and timings are in the NOTAM

Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case.

LXGB

the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS

Not all police aircraft are fitted with TCAS. Personally, I think it should be mandatory but that's another topic. TCAS and transponders do fail from time to time as well.

Thud_and_Blunder

Your points are all very sensible and professional but you may be quicker than the other aircraft, you just don't know. Your trust in the lookout from the other aircraft is admirable. Maybe, I am not so trusting.

[Skidkid]

Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.

I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.

During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.

[ShyTorque]

When military heli pilots are using NVGs, the nav lights from other aircraft appear very much brighter to them than when relying merely on the naked eye.

Some aircraft do have a problem with reflected light from nav lights entering the goggles, reducing their effectiveness.

There is nothing to stop a pilot using nav lights by day if he feels it appropriate to use them but there is certainly nothing to mandate that they must be used by day. However, helicopters shall have an anti-coll light on at all times (I think it must still be coloured red only for civilian aircraft) when the rotors are turning.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.
During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.
SkidKid
I agree that during transit there is little value from going lights out, unless the weather conditions decree otherwise. I really don't understand why our American cousins do so often in transit given the poor training value.
For helicopters, even as a singleton, strobes (and occasionally nav lights) are a great distraction close to the ground ie ground cushion work and approaches/departures etc and so are often switched off, then switched back on for the later transit.

Professional Student
Quote:
you should know roughly where the no lights ac is
If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is.
Quote:
as the route and timings are in the NOTAM
Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case.

I was not counselling relying on the NOTAMs solely, but to use them in conjunction with the other ways of sussing where the little black buggers are. I know just how difficult they can be to spot and so would always be on the blower to ATC when operating near them.

[HEDP]

No lights training can be a requirement for several reasons and not just NVG.

The area or route is NOTAM'd for the purpose of safety. Military NOTAMs make the route/area a mandatory avoid for other military users however for civilians it can merely be a warning issued by Airspace Utilisation Section at CAA. Should a civilian be in conflict with a no lights aircraft operating within the limits of a NOTAM however, I would expect the pilot may be deemed to be hazarding his aircraft and passengers. I do however, sit to be corrected,

HEDP

[Skidkid]

ProfessionalStudent

Thanks, and things don't seem to have changed too much from my day. I well appreciate, from my previous experience, that lights can cause a distraction whilst operating on NVG in the weeds and in the cushion.

We seem to agree about the transit which still raises the question as to why it is necessary for some to travel lights-out on a night transit. Perhaps, SRG and DASC should be taking a closer look at this.

With regard to calling ATC, this is obviously very sensible. Thud_and_Blunder has the advantage of being able to speak to Lyneham Radar and Salisbury Ops but this is not necessarily the case in other parts of the country.

There are many areas where there is no ATC available at low level, particulary after 5pm. Even if you can raise someone, you are almost certainly going to be below radar cover.

[Skidkid]

HEDP

Yes, but you seem to have missed some of the points raised by the earlier posts.

Put yourself in the position of a police or SAR pilot who is on a category A or B task. He has priority over all training flights, even if that training flight has been NOTAM'd. He wishes to fly as fast as possible, in the most direct line as possible, to the scene of his task. You would expect nothing less if you were bobbing up and down in your dinghy in a cold, rough sea.

His proposed track takes him through the NOTAM'd route of a military no-lights training aircraft. If the route is close to an active airfield it is obviously sensible to call ATC for assistance. Even then, a radar service may not be available at low level.

If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him?

I don't know what the answer is; perhaps those in higher places should be providing one.

[Stitchbitch]

I assume he or she would be 'dark strobeing' so that others on goggs could see him. Bit unusual to see one without nav lights , but then again if the crew is comming back from an excercise area or have recently returned from sandy places they might just have forgotten to switch 'em back on again.:}

[Skidkid]

Unfortunately, most police aircraft do not have the advantage of using goggles.

[HEDP]

In the case of my fleet, the crew are using only their right eye aided with FLIR and the left eye is unaided. If we were to train with lights all the time the crew get used to using the lights of the other aircraft in formation with their left eye. As soon as they go on ops with no lights available to the left eye they stand a very good chance of becoming situationaly unaware and in a dangerous situation. Therefore; it is critical that they train with no lights from the outset.

I would put it that if the police crew were unable to talk to a no lights crew by any means then the situation would merit a serious risk assessment balancing the risk versus the aims of the police sortie. If lives are at stake then it may be worth it, otherwise maybe not.

HEDP

[ErgoMonkey]

Some Pumas were fitted with NVG friendly and Covert lighting, covert being Infra Red and detectable with NVGs and not Naked eye, maybe they were flying covert...

[JNo]

HEDP
If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him?
Fly above it. Cloud base dependant of course but the NOTAM would surely have a transit height which would be no more than 250ft agl.

[TheWizard]

Perhaps if any of the CHSU pilots are lurking they can answer how they operate out of Benson every night in LFA 1C & B surrounded by any number of Merlins and Pumas 'lights out' without any problem!
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not. Not wanting to sound patronising in any way, but unecessary risks are not a daily pursuit of helicopter crews.

[LXGB]

Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not.

Spot On.

[Could be the last?]

Nav lights can also turned off approaching a fld, CA or conducting an USL, it stops the cmn's nvds blooming.

Before anyone shouts, I know it's not SOP but practical!:ok:

[The Ugly Fend Off]

You don't even have to NOTAM your route necessarily. AD sqns regularly train lights out at all levels. All legal as long as they are under an ADIS from an appropriate CRC. Doesn't have to be in segregated airspace either. Happens all the time in Wales and Northumberland.

[Skidkid]

Jno

Well said,

But when have you ever seen a NOTAM with regard to night lights-out flying where the upper limit is 250 ft agl?

TheWizard

Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum

Of course you should not discuss military tactics in a public environment but don't you think that military training, in peacetime public airspace, that creates a risk to flight safety should not be discussed openly?

The Ugly Fend Off

You are right, it is very sensible to train lights-out under the control/monitor of a CRC or other radar unit, but how is the civilian pilot transiting through the area going to know what is going on, or who to contact for co-ordination, if it has not been NOTAM'd?

[TheWizard]

but don't you think that military in peacetime public airspace, that creates a risk to flight safety should not be discussed openly?
and has anybody with the correct knowledge (and I mean current rules not legacy or what 'used to happen') admitted there is a risk to flight safety then? Do you really think military crews are happy to flly around in the dark putting themselves in harms way on purpose?:hmm:
Has there been any military training accidents in recent years at night due to using the correct procedures? Not that I am aware of.
Open discussion is fine, but when it involves snippets of correct information and plenty of 'assumptions' then usually the wrong conclusions are drawn. As I said, it is not a clever idea to discuss current tactics and associated procedures on a worldwide public forum. If those reading this thread are current Mil aviators then they will be well aware of the facts. If those others that are reading this are 'concerned' with military activity, remember, as has been stated elsewhere - there are rules and regs in place to allow proper training to take place in notified areas. We don't just blunder into any old airspace willy nilly, unlike some civilian pilots it has to be said:rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

I think you are absolutrely correct. Flying around in the dark without displaying any Nav or Anti-col lights is foolhardy and dangerous....and a flight safety hazard......

[TheWizard]

I think you are absolutrely correct. Flying around in the dark without displaying any Nav or Anti-col lights is foolhardy and dangerous....and a flight safety hazard......
Not done much operational work then have we??:hmm:
and before anyone says 'but this is not ops', how else do crews train without being shot at?:rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

Done plenty shippers.....and a lot of it on Goggs.....I just said that its dangerous....like flying on Goggs is dangerous...and scary...and flying in formation at night is even scarier...

[TheWizard]

Done plenty shippers.....and a lot of it on Goggs.....I just said that its dangerous....like flying on Goggs is dangerous...and scary...and flying in formation at night is even scarier...
Fair enough, but then you of all people know why it is done. Of course it is dangerous and scary but thats why we need to train so that it is done correctly.
Flight Safety hazard? Next you will be telling us that every time you get airborne in a helicopter it is a flight safety hazard? (and I don't mean you personally:} )

[The Ugly Fend Off]

SkidKid

The CRC involved in the exercise will ensure that all ATC units in the affected airspace are informed of the activity. In this way the civilians in the area should be made aware. If this fails to get the civilians out of the way, so to speak, then the formations with the lights out will be hgt capped or if it gets too busy will immediately go lights on. There has been recent CAA guidlines released concerning this very issue.

[Skidkid]

TheWizard

Nobody has said that anyone has or should "blunder into any old airspace willy nilly". Accidental incursions do occur from time to time, of course, but these happen to military and civilian pilots alike.

The topic being discussed is whether a pilot, civilian or military, who is engaged on a category A or B flight at night in open airspace should make a conscious decision to fly into the NOTAM'd area of a lights-out training flight.

You do give the impression that, because you have NOTAM'd the activity, you have priority over everyone else. You don't - a category A or B flight takes priority over your training flight.

When a civilian police/SAR pilot goes flying he does have the "correct knowledge" of "the current rules" but there is a very obvious flight safety risk if he cannot see another aircraft in the same part of the sky.

vecvechookattack

It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.

One possible procedure would be for the lights-out aircraft to monitor a radio frequency so that another aircraft can call and co-ordinate. That frequency must have been NOTAM'd so that the other aircraft is aware of it and it must be VHF. Most civilian aircraft do not carry UHF.

The Ugly Fend Off

It is good to see that you AD guys have some sensible procedures in force for the upper levels. That is not the case, though, at low level where radio and radar cover from CRC or ATC is limited.

[PTT]

The topic being discussed is whether a pilot, civilian or military, who is engaged on a category A or B flight at night in open airspace should make a conscious decision to fly into the NOTAM'd area of a lights-out training flight.

Big

Sky

Theory.

:ok:

[vecvechookattack]

[quote=Skidkid;3081038]TheWizard


vecvechookattack

It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.




Fella,

I have over 200 Hours of NVG flying,.....whazzing along at 100'.....screaming over the top of peoples houses at night....waking the children, disturbing the animals.....just missing that set of wires which are not on the chart.....Anyone who thinks that flying at extreme low level at night without any lights on is NOT dangerous....then they are complete fools and won't get a ride in my aircraft

[Skidkid]

vecvechookattack

Great comment,

My 250 hrs on the goggles was many years ago but it sounds just the same as I remember, except that we kept the nav lights on then.

The good thing is that good procedures have kept us both safe so far.

Fly safely