UK Tornado force pushes NTISR

[WE Branch Fanatic]

This from Janes. (http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw070109_1_n.shtml)

UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Panavia Tornado GR.4 reconnaissance/attack aircraft are now in the forefront of developing non-traditional intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (NTISR) tactics during missions to support coalition troops.

US and UK aircraft operating over Iraq are using their electro-optical targeting pods to improve situational awareness for ground troops and detect insurgent threats. The changing nature of the counter-insurgency campaign has forced coalition air forces in Iraq to evolve their operations and push non-kinetic effects to the fore, according to RAF officers.

[Flatus Veteranus]

WTF does this mean? Perhaps a loose translation into plain English might be:

"Growing sensitivity of Western public opinion to collateral damage and civilian casualties has limited offensive operations by coalition air forces. They are increasingly using EO sensors, primarily intended for target designation, for passive tactical reconnaissance in support of ground forces."

Am I anywhere near right?

[diginagain]

Alternatively, "We're out of ammo, but not avtur"

Yet :E

[L J R]

......and this is a new idea??

[microlight AV8R]

Sounds like noo labour have infiltrated the world of defence. You're all doomed now. That was classic 'spin' if ever I read it.

[cynicalint]

It means they have not given us what we need to do the job so we are improvising with what we have got!

[L J R]

With the Litening pod, the GR-4 will finally be at least as good as most other strike aircraft of the '90s in its ability to actually see a target, pity it is 15 years too late. Why, oh why has TIALD allowed to continue to be used with its marginal picture, and overly complicated switchology and functionality?

[spectre150]

IIRC this article also mentioned the Litening 3 data link capability which I dont think the TIALD pod has (or at least didnt have). Sounds like this a useful, albeit long overdue, enhancement to make current ops more effective. A current operator's perspective (unclas of course) would be interesting here for those of us out of touch.

[peppermint_jam]

With the Litening pod, the GR-4 will finally be at least as good as most other strike aircraft of the '90s in its ability to actually see a target, pity it is 15 years too late. Why, oh why has TIALD allowed to continue to be used with its marginal picture, and overly complicated switchology and functionality?

So very true, even the 500 series pods are pretty useless. Litening is supposed to be 10x better. There's no datalink facility on TIALD as you stated Spectre.

RAPTOR has datalink facilities, but can't 'paint' targets. And unfortunately they are fitted to the same station on the aircraft, so you can't carry both.

[Phochs3]

The TIALD pod, in today's climate, is utterly, utterly ****e

[insty66]

All you need to know is http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf
As for how good it really is just, compare the different times it has taken to get it to service cf. RAPTOR or the quality against TIALD despite all its evolutionary guises.
Most importantly the squaddies on the floor will benefit from better info and more.

[Violet Club]

So why has the Sniper turned up on the GR9 then (BAE's ZD320 test ship)...at the same time as the first Litening IIIs appeared on GR4s?

What in pod's name is going on??

[L J R]

Litening is on a 1 year lease from some eastern mediterranean arms producing country?


What happens after that is anyone's guess.


...back to a BAE product....?

[Gainesy]

What in pod's name is going on??

Dunno, why don't you ask him (is he still at Boscombe)?:)

[Been There...]

Dunno, why don't you ask him (is he still at Boscombe)?:)
Nope, along the road at RR Bristol if it is the person I am thinking about.

[Gainesy]

Phil, ex Jag mate?

[GreenKnight121]

Neither the A-6E nor the A-7E ever used LANTIRN, but had their own unique systems 5 years before LANTIRN was tested.

The A-6E used an airframe-mounted ball turret half-inside and half-outside the nose, below the radar and in front of the nose wheel. AN/AAS-33A made by Hughes Aircraft. Accepted for service after trials in 1978.

The A-7E used a single large pod slung under the starboard wing on the inner pylon. AN/AAR-45 made by Texas Instruments. Accepted for service after trials in 1979.

Neither of these had any data-link capability, but recorded images on magnetic video tape.


Early F-15 & F-16 FLIR systems were a 2-pod Martin Marietta Corp. [now Lockheed Martin, Inc.] LANTIRN package comprising AN/AAQ-13 (navigation) and AN/AAQ-14 (targeting) pods. Accepted for service March 1985 after trials in 1984.

AN/AAQ-28 Litening: research and development program began at Rafael Corporation's Missiles Division in Haifa, Israel, with subsequent completion of LITENING I for use in the Israeli Air Force. Accepted for service in 1995.
Litening was fitted by the USAF on the F-15, F-16, A-10, & B-52, and by the USN/USMC on the F/A-18 & AV-8B.

[JFZ90]

Interesting how an Israeli company now appears to be at the forefront of the air targetting pod market.

Given the huge investment in US (and UK / European) technology suppliers of this sort of kit, or at least similar key enabling technology components (IR detectors, lasers etc.) you might have expected more US (and UK, Edinburgh?) domestic competition. Anyone want to comment?

Has the size of the domestic Israeli air force market lead to this? Surely not?

[tonkaboy]

Guys,
7 Litening III pods were purchased under a UOR for Op TELIC and not rented as stated earlier. The gentleman saying he would rather have Sniper over L3 must consider the following:
1. Whilst Sniper offers a better max magnifiaction, it doesn't allow the operator the same zoom-out facility. CAS, etc ,sometimes requires that big picture view. In fact, the ANG were offered both for their block-50 CGs, and this was the reason they opted for Litening AT (the same sensor as L3).
2. Whilst the Rover 3 datalink has been fully integrated on the Litening AT, it wasn't integrated on Sniper or L3, until this UOR. There was, however, considerably less risk on the L3.
3. The L3 has an outstanding Recce function (unlike the Sniper), which will offer similar NIRRS to DJRP. Now consider getting rid of the DJRP in place of the L3, and you then have decent flexibility - Massive benifits over Sniper.
4. Sniper offers some massive benifits for the Harrier which are not relevant to the GR4.

[Semper Jump Jet]

JFZ- Isreali design, but built in the US by Northrup Grumman Corp, guess this satisfies the politicians who would be concerned with such things, IMHO I don't really care, it's a great pod.

Great points by Tboy, I find it interesting that the Harriers are considering Sniper since the Tornados already have Litening. It seems like it would be benificial to have a common pod for all fast jets. The USMC had a similar issue a few years back, with Harriers being heavily investedin Litening and the Hornets using their AT FLIR (crap). Now all airframes in the Corps are using the same pod under a central manager. Simplifies support and allocation greatly.

[insty66]

Guys,
7 Litening III pods were purchased under a UOR for Op TELIC and not rented as stated earlier. The gentleman saying he would rather have Sniper over L3 must consider the following:
1. Whilst Sniper offers a better max magnifiaction, it doesn't allow the operator the same zoom-out facility. CAS, etc ,sometimes requires that big picture view. In fact, the ANG were offered both for their block-50 CGs, and this was the reason they opted for Litening AT (the same sensor as L3).
2. Whilst the Rover 3 datalink has been fully integrated on the Litening AT, it wasn't integrated on Sniper or L3, until this UOR. There was, however, considerably less risk on the L3.
3. The L3 has an outstanding Recce function (unlike the Sniper), which will offer similar NIRRS to DJRP. Now consider getting rid of the DJRP in place of the L3, and you then have decent flexibility - Massive benifits over Sniper.
4. Sniper offers some massive benifits for the Harrier which are not relevant to the GR4.

If i didn't know better, I'd say you've been peeking, either that or we know each other:oh: . LIII is exactly what Tornado needs to keep it relevant, and effective in todays combat environs. (ooh get me!)

[RETDPI]

NIIRS not NIRRS? or am I deficient of an acronym and on the wrong track ? ( I believe its IIRS now anyway).

[Green Flash]

Lancer's to get Sniper pods too.

'The service is also in the process of testing Lockheed Martin’s Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod on the B-1 bomber to determine whether fitting the aircraft with the system could allow Lancer crews to better support combat operations in Iraq.'


http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,122144,00.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl

[Charlie Luncher]

"Ah go on give us a job I can do that" cause Tone or Gordon might cut us back even more and then we wouln't get any medals:cool:
Charlie sends