Night Lights

[You're Dangerous]

Hey Guys

I would appreciate an advice on what type of lights you are using for night flight.
I was thinking of buying the lip light to go on a David Clark Headset but I think it is priced a bit high:eek:
Currently using a head lamp - kind of clumsy and annoying - any feedback on websites etc. would be very much appreciated - cheers

[Tailboom]

I don't know what a lip light is but I use a Mag light with a red filter and a strap to slip over my wrist, I now take a second one with me as just last week lifting from Redhill in the dark on climb out my torch bulb failed and I ended up using the light on my mobile phone to light the consul !!!!!:)

[Um... lifting...]

Lip lights are worth their weight in gold, if you need one. Various kinds, the LEDs don't burn out, you don't need a hand to operate, they point where your head points, NVG compatible, not a lot of spurious light dazzling out the cockpit, etc.
Depends upon what kind of flying you do, really, and how your machine is equipped. Someone with a NVG-compatible EMS or military cockpit will normally use a NVG-compatible green lip light. Someone in the R-22 with a Mag-Lite duct-taped to the console maybe uses candles, for all I know, which begs the question why are you flying at night in a piston single anyway unless you have a death wish.
If your cockpit is properly lit, you really need only a minimal amount of personal lighting and too much can be a hazard. If it's not, well, then you probably need more. I haven't used a conventional flash of any kind in a cockpit in years... too much light. If you're using your light to illuminate gauges, a lip light will work, but a cockpit mounted and dimmable flood might be better. If you only use it to write with, either a finger light or a lighted kneeboard.
http://www.s-lite.com/

[mfriskel]

Get the LED kit for your mini-mag, the batteries last forever, the bulbs don't fail and the light is brighter. I think I paid about 6 USD for each kit. Lip lights are OK, but a bit specialized. Another option is a finger light, I think they are better than a lip light.
Mark

[skadi]

I like to use these liplights mounted on the microphone, mine has two different LEDs, one bright white (f. e. used for writing after the flight ) and one green for normal inflight use. The Batterypack ( 2 AA ) is mounted on the helmet, so nothing disturbs in normal use. Easy to handle, always both hands free.

[WSPS]

Does anyone have an address for lighted pens?
I agree with Um...Lifting... that too much lighting can be a hazard. It should be kept to a minimum.
Cheers

[helopat]

I don't know what a lip light is but I use a Mag light with a red filter and a strap to slip over my wrist, I now take a second one with me as just last week lifting from Redhill in the dark on climb out my torch bulb failed and I ended up using the light on my mobile phone to light the consul !!!!!:)

Gents,

Sorry about departing slightly from the portable lighting discussion, but I have a question for Tailboom...

Don't you have to have installed console lighting in the aircraft to fly at night. I don't fly much in the civil sector, but your post implies that when your torch failed you had to rely on your phone light to see the instruments for the remainder of the flight.

Sounds dodgy as...correct me if I'm wrong.

HP

[Tailboom]

Hi Helopat the machine I was flying the other night when my mag light gave up was a AS350B2 which has consol lighting but I find that it is a great help to have a seperate light to view or set for example the QNH/QFE. You could switch on the overhead lights but I find them to bright and your night vision is easliy destroyed, also when I'm coming into land I like the instument panel very dim

Further to Um...liftings comments I find that the lighting in some of the turbine machines I fly leaves a lot to be desired !!

Another comment Um ...Lifting made was that you would have to be tired of living to fly a piston at night and candles might be a good option in a R22 what a load of rubbish, ive flown extensivley at night in both single Turbine and Piston and I can tell you that when the flame goes out the result will be the same, not wishing to stoke up an a discussion that has been aired before but when was the last time you heard of an engine failure related crash in a R22/R44, also the lighting on the instument panels of these machines works a damm sight better than most AS350's or Hughes 500's that ive flown in:ok:

[Um... lifting...]

Most helicopters with one engine (turbine, piston, steam, rodent-powered, whichever...) weren't originally designed to fly at night, and while you or nobody you know has had an engine failure at night, it really only takes one and it's quite likely nobody walks away. Single-engine flight at night in any machine is a calculated risk, by definition.
I know the rules say you can fly VFR at night. In point of fact... if you can't see to land and/or can't make out the horizon, for all practical purposes, no you can't (and I won't be drawn into what the rules are in different jursidictions, my point remains valid). That isn't to say I haven't done it, I have, and plenty. I probably will avoid doing it again, though I'm aware not everyone has that luxury. Most machines with crap console lighting (but not all) are singles, or are older designs. I stand by my comments that you described as 'a load of rubbish'.
That said, some form of low-level directable lighting in the cockpit is a good thing, for finding a dropped pencil, reading that badly lit gauge, writing down a clearance, etc. There are a lot of choices out there, some would be great for me, but be rotten for you, and vice-versa depending upon what you fly, if you wear a helmet or a headset, if you're wearing NVGs or not, if you're working around cultural lighting or in the dark as the Maker intended. So, while a Mag-Lite might work for some in the cockpit, some would avoid it like the plague. Like most questions on this forum, nobody can really answer it but the question writer because nobody is doing exactly the same thing.

[Gomer Pylot]

I built my own liplights for awhile, using LEDs bought from Mouser Electronics and moldable epoxy. They work, but I eventually went to a headlight. I bought one at the local megamart which has 2 white and one red LED. I don't like red at all, so I changed the red one to green, which I had been using all along on my lip lights. The headlight works better for me, because I can use it for preflighting, and the bright white lights are useful in the cockpit for getting things ready for the start, and the start itself. I use the single green light while flying, to avoid blinding the copilot. I've decided that trying to worry about preserving night vision is a waste of time, because all the cockpit lights are white, there is nothing to see outside while flying anyway, and on approach the rig lights are bright enough to destroy night vision anyway. On takeoff, the bright lights have washed everything out, and it's off into pure blackness, an instrument takeoff, so I've quit worrying about it. The liplights are, IMO, more trouble than they're worth, but some people do prefer them, and I believe it's a matter of whatever works for the individual.

Here in the US an office supply chain called Office Depot carries lighted pens which also have a PDA stylus, fairly cheap. For lighted pens in Europe, I have no advice other than Google.

[Aesir]

Someone in the R-22 with a Mag-Lite duct-taped to the console maybe uses candles, for all I know, which begs the question why are you flying at night in a piston single anyway unless you have a death wish.


The R-22 has the best illumination for the instruments and cabin of all helicopters that I have flown at night! AND I currently fly NVG AS332L1 Super Puma.

It´s surprising that a $150K small piston heli can have decent instrument lights but a multi million dollar machines don´t :ugh:

[MamaPut]

Aesir,

You're absolutely right about the R22 lighting. The Squirrel family of helicopters, both singles and twins, just have a 'light generator' and what looks like aluminium foil on the instrument panel cover to refelct the light.

Um.....

Interestingly, whilst I agree with your comments and sentiments about night flying in singles, I have 2 friends who have had engine failures in piston singles and walked away from them unharmed and with minimal aircraft damage! The few I've known of in twins have resulted in disaster. The key factor in the ones I've known of have been the nature of the terrain over which they were flying .

For myself, I like a headlight, and I normally just clip and LED torch to the side of my headset.

[JimBall]

Um...: which begs the question why are you flying at night in a piston single anyway unless you have a death wish.


Plainly you have an agenda. What's the difference between a piston single at night and a turbine single ? Oh yes - there are fewer engine failures in pistons than turbines........

In the UK the R22 and R44 have an excellent certified night kit available which provides high intensity external lights for illuminating the ground if you need them. These are in addition to the 2 standard landing lights.

Funnily enough, if you evaluate all the risks for Day vs Night in a single you would probably find that the Day risks are more.

Like the Manchester Low Level corridor on a sunny, calm day when all the microlights take to the air over Cheshire and don't show up on radar - so the FIS is useless.

Night flying is a wonderful experience and makes you a better pilot. For that reason alone, we should all have a go at a night course.

[Devil 49]

I use the Seitz mike/lip lights on almost all night flights, and prefer the green LED/white xenon model. The xenon's too bright for almost all night duty applications however, so I also carry a PAL light (http://www.palights.com/) for starts, paperwork, map data, etc.
In the stone age, pre-mike light days, I'd use a red filter on a AA Minimag with a ball cap clip, or just stick in under the headset arch, above the ear cup, when the flight continued into the dark.

The mike/lip lights are priceless. Most VFR aircraft interior lights are widely variable quantities and quality throughout the fleet. Add to that the fact that night flights might be in well illuminated conditions or black, black, black!, and having a handy, reliable light to read the gauges becomes a real asset. That's how I use it- interior's as dim as possible and quick illum to see the gauge of interest.

As to pistons at night- Recips ain't what they used to be, hallelujah! I can't cite a source, but my inderstanding is that the plant in the R44 compares favorably with the C20s common older helos.

[Chickenhawk1]

I use the pelican L1 with the headset attachment system. Battery life is really good, the green lens gives out ample light. It's not hands free like the lip light but I turn it on and leave it on...I'm constantly looking at charts anyway. See what you think...
http://www.opticsplanet.net/pelican-l1-led-light-and-attachment-system-1945.html

[Um... lifting...]

Plainly you have an agenda. What's the difference between a piston single at night and a turbine single ? Oh yes - there are fewer engine failures in pistons than turbines........
Funnily enough, if you evaluate all the risks for Day vs Night in a single you would probably find that the Day risks are more.
Like the Manchester Low Level corridor on a sunny, calm day when all the microlights take to the air over Cheshire and don't show up on radar - so the FIS is useless.
Night flying is a wonderful experience and makes you a better pilot. For that reason alone, we should all have a go at a night course.
No, what's plain, actually, is that you didn't read the first sentence of my Post #9.
If you believe you can consistently and safely manage an engine failure in a single of any kind over terrain, at night, regardless of how spectacular your lighting may be, and avoid wires and trees, and uneven terrain, and walk away... well, you're a better pilot than I am and undoubtedly more of a hothead.
YOU might evaluate the risks as greater during the day, and it is indeed true that certain risks ARE greater during the day, but taken as a whole, risks are greater at night. I expect you would find yourself in the minority with your assessment otherwise among the professional pilot fraternity. Tell me, if risks were not greater at night, why does one require specific recurrent training before going out at night?
Since I have a couple thousand hours of night time to include instruction, NVG, shipboard operations and SAR, and enough of it is in singles to have some sense of what that's like, I think I know that of which I speak. I'm not saying flying at night is a bad thing, and nowhere did I say that. If you would read a little slower and more completely, you might have realized that and your bare bum wouldn't even now be waving in the breeze for all to see. I have also flown to enough night crash and ditching sites at 3 in the morning hunting for survivors (sometimes on foot because the crashed machine scattered itself broadcast) to also know that of which I speak (funny, they were all pistons, must just be a coincidence). What I am saying is that flying at night in a single, any single, is a calculated risk. If that means I have an agenda, sure, whatever, dude. Why don't you tell me what that agenda is, since you seem to know so much about me.

MamaPut, indeed, the only engine failure I've had was in a twin (which, when you consider that about 5 of every 6 engine hours I've burned fuel for were in a twin, only seems fair), and by great good luck we managed to bring it safely to earth as planned and other than the seat cushion extraction afterward, it was more or less uneventful as we were close enough to home that recovery there was the best choice. And it was at night. I wouldn't wish to duplicate that scenario with but one engine (there be dragons down there a'nicht). If I may, I think what you may be saying is that an engine failure in a twin gives more opportunities for error because there are more choices to be made. If that's what you're saying, I certainly wouldn't argue with you. I've heard of plenty of occasions when the good engine was shut down during a OEI situation or fuel was transferred the wrong way, or the fire bottle was shot into the good engine and things got mighty quiet. In a single however, an engine failure concentrates the mind wonderfully on the task at hand. Even so, I'd still rather have the second motor and takes my chances. Had I your set of experiences and observations, I might think differently, as you might if you had mine.:ok:

[SASless]

These work fine....unlike the Lip Light that gets shined into the other guys eyes or is way too bright with NVG's.

http://scientificsonline.com/images/250/30811-96.eps.jpg

[bluestack]

Keep It Simple Stupid...

...works for me

And a cheap headtorch from walmart does the trick.

The problem isn't the instrument lighting it's the kneeboard reading, and no panel lights/map light is going to get where I need it.

I can pre/post flight with a nice bright white LED and flick on a red LED when I need the next checkpoint, and it changes angle..

$9 it was...

liplight is what - $50/60 ??

I personally don't find a headtorch clumsy or annoying, and I've had flights where without one would have been a no-go.

I know we're all drummed into accepting the mantra of preserve night vision - but do we really need it ??

The rabbit/landing light is far more destructive to night vision than any personal lighting, right when you need it.

[Tailboom]

Hi Guys another point I forgot to mention is the illuminated knee board I use I bought it from Sportys a few years ago it has built in illumination at the top and is curved to fit around your leg with a good strap its moulded plastic definately worth getting I think about $45 really good value.:)

[Air-Five-oh]

jimball,
please tell us more about the R44 extrior lights. I can not find such a thing in Canada

[JimBall]

Air: If you can PM me with an email address I can send you some pics. Essentially the kit is 2 spotlights hung either side of the helicopter on the lower tube just behind the rear skid tubes. These have to be wired straight to the battery so they have independent power. The CAA kit also needs 2 activation switches put on the CB panel, marked with some very expensive luminous tape.

The whole kit fitted costs around US 3000 and you lose about 2-3 kts airspeed. It would be great if the light mountings could be hinged so the lights could be folded up for daytime use - but the CAA won't allow that.

And we still can't to CAT flights in the dark in the UK, single engine. And that applies to both fixed and rotary.

The kit works for both 22 and 44. Years ago the approved night kit was based on 2 flares - so we've moved on. A bit.

[Bravo73]

Jim,

I'm intrigued by your comment below (the emphasis is obviously mine):


And we still can't to CAT flights in the dark in the UK, single engine. And that applies to both fixed and rotary.


Does that mean that you think that we should be able to do single-engine public transport flights at night? Or that you think that the rules might be changed and that we might be able to do them some time in the future? :confused:




Sorry for the thread drift. Or does this topic need a thread of it's own?

[Gomer Pylot]

I agree with bluestack. The problem isn't seeing the instruments, it's seeing the kneeboard, the approach plate, finding the pen dropped on the floor, etc. The instruments in the aircraft I fly are well lit, indeed often too well lit, so preserving night vision is impossible. A cheap, reliable headlight is my choice, with another in the bag as a backup. For <$10US, it's worthwhile.

[SASless]

For you folks who wear Ball Caps.....or have a true "stiff upper lip" perhaps.

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/assets/gadget-brando-5-led-cap-light1.jpg

[Helinut]

SASless, or indeed anyone else

Could you please provide a source for the finger lights?

[Helinut]

Jim,

Given the recent history of night accidents during hele CAT there is zero prospect of doing SE CAT in JAA land. If you only have one pilot, you'll need the AP too. The reasons are all in the comments in this thread.

By all means take the risks yourself in a private flight, but we DO NOT NEED any more high profile CAT hele accidents in the UK. Apart from anything else it will kill our business.

[Um... lifting...]

SASless, or indeed anyone else
Could you please provide a source for the finger lights?

http://www.s-lite.com/
These guys are a US & UK concern, so you should be able to find their gear either place. Finger lights are around $16.

[SASless]

http://www.nitevis.com/Lighting_Filters_Mainpage.htm

All things for night vision...includes the lip lights, finger lights, and break sticks. The finger light has spectacle clips as well as finger straps.

[grumpytroll]

I have been flying in the dark for a long time and am always looking for ideas on lighting. I have tried a lip light and was not totally satisfied with what it offers. back in the day we made our own finger lights using parts from Radio Shack. For the past several years I have been using a finger light from "FliteLite". They really work great. I put one on my left hand pointer finger and its very easy on and off with my middle finger. (can I say middle finger?) Any way, they are inexpensive (4-8 bucks per) and a -throw away and replace- when the batteries die. I (I guess you could replace the batts but I just throw on a new one once or twice a year.) I believe they turn off after 10 minutes so if you leave one in your pocket and it accidentally gets turned on it won't burn out. Any way, what else is out there and available? Recommendations? I really like this finger light but am always looking for ideas. A simple overhead light built in to the 407 and AStar would be great for paperwork purposes.

cheers

[misterbonkers]

I have a little Peli L1 torch with a special holder that velcros onto the earcup of my headset. You can adjust the position easy enough and remove it when you don't want it. Powerful little thing that comes with red, green and white lenses. not that cheap mind and the holder was difficult to get hold of. Best off ordering from Peli direct.

[Gordy]

I use one of these...works great on fires trying to find the "blue room" at night also.

http://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000001b7MqAAI

[Flying Bull]

Torches are mens toys :ok:

Well, don´t know to much about SE helicopters at night, haven´t done that kind of flights since Culdrose
but doing at least 1/3 of my actual flying with NVG.
I have four lights - with Smartphone - 5 lightsources with me.
a UK Penlight Minilampe UK 2AAA Penlight eLED - Underwater Kinetics (http://www.uk-lights.com/minilampe-uk-2aaa-penlight-eled-atex.html) in a pocket as a spare an for refueling
a no name singe AAA battery LED-Light for start up, when instrument lightning gets dark due to power consumption of the starter and for normal walk around
a one blue LED keylight on a very thin cord with an automatic coil device, which is on my chest-pocket, always handy to have a look on the switches
and last, a modifed kneeboard, where I changed the white bulbs against blue LED (which I prefer against the green ones and they don´t distrurb the NVG either)
Works great for me.
The other "Zweibrüder" torches, Mini Mag lights and so on are collecting dust in my drawer, they were just to bulky or broke to easily (bulbs of the mini mag) or were to complicated to switch on (to much options and I don´t want to search for the "right" lightcolorswitch) ;-)
Greetings Flying Bull

[Helilog56]

Best backup light source I carry.....my IPhone (and we also utilize Ipads)!

[ShyTorque]

I use the cockpit wander light.

[grumpytroll]

FLITELite Finger Lights (http://www.flitelite.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=18)


this particular model has an on/off switch mounted on top so you can use your middle finger to turn it on and off. In other words a one handed op. I just looked at other options and they all look good but the size and operation of this one looks best. Love some of the other lights I read about as well. The machine gun spotlight looks groovy.


Cheers

[albatross]

Wings 2015 Catalog (http://flywings.com/catalog.htm)

These guys sell lip and finger lights.
I always get good service from them.