Degree Courses with Aviation Studies (Leeds, Liverpool, London Metropolitan etc) [Archive]

king rooney

10th Jan 2006, 00:47

After having spent ages going round pretty much every half decent mod course provider I have just decided to plump for the Stapleford/ Lon Met ATPL option, simply because it was the one that impresed me most, even against the big guns like OAT and Cabair, whose main draw seems to be the "we will get you a job" claim.

There was a real buzz about the place, and its reputation seems to be gathering momentum in the flying world, every comment ive read on pprune has got nothing but good things to say about the place. PLus the Twin Diamonds they've got for the IR training are well sexy!
My general impression was that it seems a lot more relaxed and chilled out than other places, with no stinking uniforms to be worn. (why do certain places make you do that anyway? what does it achieve)
Can only be a bonus that its just about the cheapest option around, with no apparent loss in quality of training. If you do yer PPL in US it all comes in at less than 30k (on paper at least) inc an mcc.
Only bad point is that Im gonna have to live in London, the biggest ****hole in Europe for half a year or so (no offence intended cockneys!), however at least the accommodation at SF is in the scenic Essex countryside. Still, sacrifices will always have to be made.

Anyone else out there starting the Lon met resi course in march? if so big up! see u soon.

ITFC1

11th Jan 2006, 11:21

Apparently Farnborough isnt up and running yet, the nearest in the UK is Paris

Air Polygamy

16th Jan 2006, 17:41

Hey Hey Hey !

Anyone who is or has been at LMu for ground training ? I have no idea o wheter they're good or not. I know Stapleford send their student sthere for the ATPL but whats LMU like ?

Also, London is an expensive place to stay in. Even if LMU is cheaper. Are their standards good ? And is accommodation still offordable ?

Thanks for y'all replies ...

hedges81

16th Jan 2006, 18:19

am starting there myself in march, have heard the teaching standard is pretty good. Lmu course also divides the exams up into 3 sets, rather than 2 as they do else where. This means that I am scheduled to have two breaks, one of 2 weeks and one of 3 weeks in the middle of the course, definitely an advantage, as as far as I know other ground schools run straight through with exams and teaching.

for cheap accommodation do a search on da net for "unite private student halls". They have rooms available around 1 or 2 miles from the college for about 420 quid a month, inc council tax and bills. Fairly affordable, provided you can put up with having a load of 18 yr old studend nobeds running around! Still, think of the sh@ggin potential with the females!

Air Polygamy

16th Jan 2006, 19:18

No thanks, i am married and happy !

hedges81

16th Jan 2006, 19:47

Where will ur wife be?

If she's ina different area phone code then it doesn't count.

Married2APilot

17th Jan 2006, 10:45

How come it doesn't count??!:*

Fladbrokeandbusted

18th Jan 2006, 08:41

hehe

hedges81... well... maybe we will meet in March then.. I have just signed up for that same course.. :o)

moggiee

18th Jan 2006, 10:00

i am married!
Several times over if your username is to be believed!

hedges81

18th Jan 2006, 10:46

flatbroke,

cool, see if u can guess who I am.

Danska ya?

Fladbrokeandbusted

19th Jan 2006, 07:31

Danish.. yes :ok:

or dansk if you prefer

Ill ask around for hedges81.. :8

have you found a place to live yet?

hedges81

19th Jan 2006, 10:16

will look around for you too. Am gonna move in with my girlfriend who lives in south london, see how that goes.

May I thank you for your bacon, your women and Peter Schmicel, all of which have made me very happy at some stage during the past.

Also, how u doing with their 100 question entrance exam?

Fladbrokeandbusted

19th Jan 2006, 10:38

HAHA...

youre very welcome.. :)

I did average I guess... 89%... but at least I passed.. And you?

If you wish you can email me at:

[email protected]
:ok:

CAT3C AUTOLAND

19th Jan 2006, 21:13

Hedges, believe me, you won't have any time for shagging, your head will be too busy thinking about your CRP-5 :).

Just a word about the Unite facilities. You have a choice of location. I stayed in Poland house (Stratford), a little further away than Sherron house (Whitechapel), but nice size rooms, with large desk space, and pretty quiet.

And stay away from Perfect Fried Chicken in Whitechapel, unless you want rotting guts.

Enjoy it.

Fladbrokeandbusted

20th Jan 2006, 10:51

Air Polygamy

31st Jan 2006, 06:16

Hey guyz

I know some of you have or will be studying at LMU. I am preparing to go there for the March session. Can anyone tell me what's the schedule like ?
I found some interesting student jobs at Victoria.

I 've been to college and the average time spent in class was around 20 hours per week. How is it at the Centre for Civil Aviation ? 8am to 5pm everyday plus homework ????

the_daddy

31st Jan 2006, 11:51

Hi, I have also been looking into doing my ATPL ground studies at LMU, but I won't be there until March next year! I have spoken to the admissions lady on the phone and as far as I could understand from her it is definately a 9-5 intensive course... plus LOTS of homework... (14-15 books to pretty much memorise!)

I'm sure someone who has been there will be able to clarify this in more detail, but would you mind if I PM'd you to find out how it's all going at the university? The more information I can gather, the better I say!

Cheers and good luck!
:ok:

Air Polygamy

31st Jan 2006, 12:36

No Pb !:ok:

JS3

31st Jan 2006, 12:45

I am currently doing my ground studies at LMU.

The course will consume your life for the entire 6 months. You will be in class from 9 to 5 each day, and at the end of the day there will be more than enough to study at home.

Throw in the occasional progress tests and the intense studying required to pass some of them, and you will start to have an idea of how much time will be consumed from your average day.

I would not advise for anyone to try to hold a job or any other engagements during the length of the course because it will make life very difficult for you.

The main goal is to spend your time effectively and get the pass marks during the course, then you have the rest of your life to pay off your debts working from the world's most fabulous office!

Cavallier

9th Mar 2006, 13:24

Hey Cat3C
Before you go spouting off about the CRP 5 remember who is the nav guru here!

Thr Idle Op Des Nav

cheers,
The Cav:cool:

CAT3C AUTOLAND

9th Mar 2006, 15:53

Cav,

Tell that to MD, and answer your bloody e-mail you lazy git ;).

Cavallier

10th Mar 2006, 09:12

Cheeky git. Will I ever live that down I wonder!

The Cav:cool:

CAT3C AUTOLAND

10th Mar 2006, 09:17

Negative, I say again, negative ;).

european champion

12th Mar 2006, 13:43

Anyone knows if they have any simulator?id like to rent it for a few hours to practice some instruments.

Boeing 7E7

12th Mar 2006, 18:55

They have a Beach 200 sim that they use for MCC training, but I'm sure they would hire it out if you wanted it.

AreYouForReal

12th Mar 2006, 21:05

Hey Cat3C
Before you go spouting off about the CRP 5 remember who is the nav guru here!

Thr Idle Op Des Nav

cheers,
The Cav:cool:

Ur mind will be screwed....totally.....but to be honest, when we were there, we had a laugh....just make sure you turn up on time or you'll be in for it.
And everyone.......there are just a few quotes to pick up on:-
1) Just the standard five minutes
2) Right then folks
3) NO NO NO NO!!
4) Going like a pocket rocket.....A love sick bird
5) STUPID BOY!!

Match the phrases to the people and you'll get a booby prize:}

leading edge!

13th Mar 2006, 18:45

London Met is highly recommended. I had a great time there (LGU in 2002) and think that the ground school staff were superb. Overall most of the class did very well. Notes have been re written and apparently are now much better.

Re the sim, there are two. I cant speak for the more sophisticated one, but the older one, apart from being a little old and long in the tooth (and noisy) is great for the scan. It is possible to hire at an hourly rate (I think) of £25, with a small concession for ex students. At this stage there appears to be a change over of the staff with regards to the sim.

Hope that this assists and I wish you the very best!

LE!

european champion

13th Mar 2006, 21:29

Thanks for your replies.If its 25 pounds its a very good deal,im going to contact them and check.

CAT3C AUTOLAND

14th Mar 2006, 09:02

AreYouForReal, others I seem to recall are:

Kin hot and Kin fast oh and not forgetting, Cherry Red.

And did you hear the story about MA in conditions of -40 degrees C, where he took the batteries down to the hotel with him? Ha!

Makes me laugh thinking about it :).

spyrosm

25th Mar 2006, 01:56

YEEEAAAHHH!!!!

got myself a place to stay now.. 75 pounds :ok: a week incl something to eat in the morning and in the evening... GREAT..

By the way.. does anyone know how long there is between Finchley Road and the metropolitan?

I live at finchley road it takes about 30 min to get to the uni.Thats the time it took me to get to london met when i was doing my atpl ground.

Platinum206

24th Apr 2006, 17:43

Hi All,

Title pretty much says it all, I have looke here in the forums, and also on the college website itself to no avail.

I'm looking to speak to anyone who knows about, or has done the entrance exam for the abouve course, what does it involve etc...

This course will hopefully undertaken in conjunction with Stapleford.

Many Thanks in advance,
P206

Geoff565

24th Apr 2006, 20:40

Hi P206,
I completed the Entrance Exam back in late August sometime and, if my memory serves me correctly it was in the order of 100 multiple choice questions. The exam was supplied with a Maths/Physics refresher booklet and the vast majority of the questions were based on what was contained within the booklet itself.
My advice would be to have a good flick through of it beforehand, then attempt the exam - most of it was comparable to GCSE level Maths and Physics, nothing too tricky, as well as throwing in some PPL style general knowledge questions. I think the pass mark was 85%, but i'm not certain on that.
Feel free to PM if you have any other queries, hope that's of some use!
Cheers,
Geoff

Platinum206

24th Apr 2006, 22:20

Thanks a million for that info, I assumed it was something along those lines but just didn't want to go into it blind.

\\Cheers

P206

planeshipcar

25th Apr 2006, 15:47

I'm due to start a course there is June. I am very curious to know what other students have found of the atmosphere? How big was the class and age mix/ female:male ratio and the rest!

Might sound like a bit of a silly question, but I was wondering what kind of dress code people have on theory courses - should I bother worrying about looking like an airline pilot ie smart smart casual - shirt and smart trousers or just jeans and a T-shirt?

Want to make the right impression all the way through etc.

Oh and I've PM you about entrance test etc.

Varun

25th Apr 2006, 18:07

Do you have to sit the entrance exam if you're doing the Stapleford ab-initio course? :uhoh:

Geoff565

25th Apr 2006, 20:26

Hi all,
No problem, well I didn't actually opt to go for the Groundschool with London Met, so i can't comment exactly on class ratios, but from what a couple of friends on my degree course who continued on to the Groundschool have said, the ages vary quite a lot, from say late teens till 30's. I think they get a fair few European students too, there was when I had a look around anyway, so it's good as you get quite a mix. In terms of attire, it's still smart/casual from what i've been told, i'm sure Jeans wouldn't be frowned upon.

Sorry, Varun, i'm afraid i'm not 100% sure if you would be required to undertake the entrance exam, but at a guess I would assume you wouldn't, since you are going through Stapleford i'm sure they would have individual course criteria that you would have to meet anyway and, therefore this should satisfy the Groundschool criteria for London Met, but it might be worth checking!

Hope that's of some use chaps!
All the best,
Geoff

pilottom

7th May 2006, 21:12

Hi,

I have been told that Kingston Univesity are going to be offering a course whereby you can gain a degree and an fATPL at the same time. It apparently starts in September 2006 and the information is on their website http://www.kingston.ac.uk/

My problem is that I have been unable to find any information and was wondering if anyone had any info on this or give me a link. Also, does anyone know of anywhere else that offers a similar course?

Cheers
Pilottom

Ringway004

8th May 2006, 13:47

Hi, here's the link that contains all the info about the kingston degree course in aviationhttp: //www.cabair.com/kingston/index.htm, alternitavley you can go to cabair's website and you'll see it there. I'm actually starting on BA Air Transport with pilot Training at Buckinghamshire chilterns University which is similair to this course whereby you gain a degree and a FATPL in just little as 3 yrs, it's run in conjucntion with Cabir hope this helps..

captwannabe

8th May 2006, 20:37

I've had a good look at a lot of similar courses, but this one seems really good, because of the option to upgrade to BSc in one year after qualifying as a pilot. But, I would like to know what sort of options would be open to you with this degree if not applying for a position as a pilot?

oreo200

16th Aug 2006, 15:46

Has anyone any comments regarding the MCC course that is run at the London Metropolitan University, or have been on the course themselves? It is a toss up between them or Parc Aviation in Ireland. Views on both would be appreciated and my apologies if this has been convered before. I am really after comments regarding the quality of training and not the simulator debate (i.e. 737 vs King Air) if that helps!

Cheers!

Kerosine

18th Dec 2006, 10:22

Answer to Financial Prayers?
After much research into kick starting my career with my PPL, I have come across what appears to be good way of going about it...
The University of Liverpool offer 'Aerospace Engineering with pilot studies'.
Now assuming I wanted to do the degree anyway, the optional pilot studies are subsidised (??), and most financing can be taken out in conjunction with student loans etc (low interest, good repayment terms etc). Over the 3 years you get a degree, PPL and a frozen ATPL.
Is this as rosy as it seems?
What the catch?
The issue isn't about cost, as the degree will obviously make this more expensive, it's about the repayment and having a backup for any other circumstance (a degree!)
Anyone that has any knowledge on this, or has any advice, or anyone that wants to tell me off for not noticing the little thread that sort of, maybe, half covers this topic, please post back.

Thanks all

Dave

BigAl's

18th Dec 2006, 12:21

Ooooh errr Mrs..

Right, do you already have a PPL? I don't know very much about this sort of thing, however I would have to assume the 'pilot studdies' bit of the course would just be the ATPL theory course???? :confused:

If so, you would need a PPL first, assuming you havent already got one. Naturally, post ATPL theory you will need Night rating, CPL, IR etc etc etc etc, the process of which adds up to somewhere in the region of the 50k mark... ish :uhoh: to get a FROZEN ATPL.

Would be interested to see what the course blurb say's is included as part of the 'pilot studdies' bit. I would have to guess not an awful lot as you will spend most of your time learning about aero engineering... I suppose??

Interseting... I am sure there is someone else who can shed a little more light.....:cool:

Kerosine

18th Dec 2006, 15:36

Thanks for the reply.

I haven't got my PPL yet, but the course does cover your PPL in year 1, then years 2 and 3 you study for ATPL theory annd get your IMC/CPL/IR etc with all the bells and whisles apparently.
The blurb on this is a bit vague unfortunately.
From what I can gather, you have to fork out the large sum for modular training, however maybe tagged onto the student loan.
The specific hour building etc is not included in the syllabus, I think that's done on your own dime in your own time.
The actual degree looks fantastic, I've always been the one that breaks stuff to find out how it works (a habit I must get out of before I fly).

http://www.liv.ac.uk/entryprofiles/H401_Aerospace_Engineering_with_Pilot_Studies.htm#Special_Fe atures

Cheers BigAl's!

Dave

matt85

18th Dec 2006, 16:49

I had a look at something like this. If I remember rightly, you are basically doing a Aerospace Engineering degree and a PPL (which you WILL have to pay for c.£6k) and also ATPL theory I think is included.

Basically, wont be a bad degree if you do it but if you think its going to be a cheap way to a fATPL, its not.

londonmet

18th Dec 2006, 17:29

I note that the ATPL theory is provided by BGS. Why dont you do a course you like and then do the PPL on the side. Whilst at Uni get involved in all the team building leadership type roles.
When you graduate then you'll be able to crack on with a full time modular/integrated course.

Best of luck in which ever route you take.

L Met

Groundloop

19th Dec 2006, 08:47

[B]
Over the 3 years you get a degree, PPL and a frozen ATPL.

My reading of the link is that you do NOT get a frozen ATPL. There is only 20 hours flying for PPL listed. The other 180 odd you do on your own!

Kerosine

19th Dec 2006, 09:19

As far as my understanding goes, the degree doesn't specificly provide the course, it just allows you to incorporate it into your uni schedule. Costs have to be covered by yourself.
According to the uni...
PPL app. £2750
fATPL course app. £35,000
If these were covered with 'student' loans, there would be much less pressure on repayments/becoming homeless/destitute.

Page 13 and 14 on this PDF has more detail.
http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/brochures/engineering.pdf

Dave

Groundloop

19th Dec 2006, 12:05

According to the uni...
PPL app. £2750
fATPL course app. £35,000
If these were covered with 'student' loans, there would be much less pressure on repayments/becoming homeless/destitute.
Dave
However a student loan only covers up to a maximum of £3000 per year to cover tuition fees. It is highly unlikely the Student Loan Company will stump up any more for the flight training side.
See
http://www.direct.gov.uk/EducationAndLearning/UniversityAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/FactsheetsLoansGrantsBursaries/FactsheetsLoansGrantsArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=10034881&chk=FoAfFe

uuili

25th Dec 2006, 23:23

Just a bit of info from what i have heard:

1) the degree is hard work, you dont have much free time to laze around as a student. It is different to other degree courses that have few lecture hours a week
2) PPL training fits around the timetable so any free time for coursework/studying/sleeping goes out of the window
3) I dont think you end up with a fATPL, just the PPL and ATPL theory (but double check on this)
4) The degree itself is not any form of a backup, it could be difficult getting a job without any experience due to spending your free time flying

I dont know much about the financing of the course

hope the info helps a bit

Phenom100

27th Dec 2006, 18:52

Hello All,

Just trying to find anyone who is going to be on my course at London Met in March for the ATPL'S??

I'm looking to possibly share a flat with someone from March 07 thru to November. Or even if you have already been on the course and can recomend any where to stay?? B&B, Hotel or Flat share.

Your help guys would be much appreciated.

B Regards

Dan

Kerosine

5th Jan 2007, 12:50

Has anyone come across Aerospace Engineering w/pilot studies at Liverpool Uni?

Need some advice off anyone who's attending or attended.

Thanks chaps!

Airbus38

5th Jan 2007, 18:38

Don't think I'm the only one who's been bitten by this one...here's some things you might want to bear in mind. If you want to become an Engineer, do Aerospace Engineering, if you want to be a Pilot and dont really like complex-ish maths then steer well clear of it.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that the 'with Pilot Studies' bit is to draw people interested in flying into the Eng courses.

The original plan was to deliver the groundschool for the PPL in yr.1 (alongside the Eng. course) whilst facilitating flying training by making a gap a week in the timetable in which you could go and learn to fly. Year 2 is intended to deliver the ATPL groundschool (alongside the Eng. course again). University requirement for students is that they expect 20hrs flying to be completed by the end of year 1, and any other flying is off students' own backs. All fees are paid by the student.

Positive Feedback: Liverpool is a highly thought of University, the Engineering department one of the top few in the country. If you want to learn to fly, then getting your head in the PPL books from the word go is a good way to go, the timetabled slots get you off your backside to go along to the airport. If you want to be an Aerospace engineer and would like to see how the engineering is put into practice (and have some cash set aside) then a few flying hours may prove useful. Ravenair (the FTO) also have a fairly good reputation for flying training.

Practical Feedback: The PPL Groundschool is relatively straightforward, and many people find it easy to just read the books for themselves and take the exams. Conversely, the ATPL groundschool (read other threads on here) whilst not being the most complex technically, is a real minefield, very time consuming and not really a practical idea alongside the degree course, particularly to all be done in the period Sept-May.

Other things complicate this - not all the GS subjects are covered (Air Law, Flight Planning and maybe 1 or 2 others are not) which means less content, however, the University material is based upon the Bristol syllabus but does not fit in with Bristol's 'frame' structure. The Uni sets internal examinations on the subjects covered, but if you want to sit the CAA exams you will find doing the Bristol course at the same time a massive push. Oh, and you'll find that the dates for Bristol's revision courses and the CAA exams fall in term-time on the whole, therefore a couple of 2-3 week periods will need to be found somewhere if you want to do the exams proper. It's a nightmare to co-ordinate, trust me!

Bear in mind also that the GS subjects will be taught by University staff, therefore not necessarily people who are experienced in aviation, mainly experienced engineering lecturers. Time constraints also mean that in the region of two 45 minute sessions per week are devoted to this, therefore the onus is on the student to self-study.

Advice to anybody thinking of doing the course: The 'Pilot Studies' bit is an aside, and not the main part of the course. The University are a 'middle man' and therefore play only a small part in your training. Other than allowing space in the timetable for students who wish to go flying, they don't do very much more. The degree itself is a hard one, but a good one if you like engineering. When you go to the open days, don't be drawn in by the wind tunnels, lasers, jet engines etc etc., just be prepared to do a LOT of maths.

Anyone who wants more specific advice feel free to PM me.

Regards,
A38

uuili

5th Jan 2007, 21:43

you might want to have a look at this thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256668

Genghis the Engineer

6th Jan 2007, 09:28

I have been heavily involved in designing and running an equivalent course to Liverpools - and in fact deliver lectures on the two other English universities "with pilot studies" courses (Brunel and Sheffield), so am probably better placed than most to talk about this. [There is also an aeronautical science with pilot studies course at Leeds, but I'm very sceptical about that one - I think it's academically lightweight whilst still only providing flying training to PPL.]

Incidentally, apart from the Leeds course, the others are all substantially doing the same thing, so don't worry about the difference in names - it really is just names.

Firstly yes, there is definitely an element amongst cynical and cash-hungry university senior management which uses this to try and drag students who are primarily interested into flying into engineering courses. Simultaneously however, I've seen an equally strong interest amongst many students (and more so, their parents) to find a compromise between wanting a good degree, and wanting to fly - so it's not totally cynical.

These courses are very hard work - learning engineering is tough, learning to fly is tough, learning both at once is very tough. That said, my experience is that the students who go on these courses are generally much more motivated than the average undergrad - and motivation and peer-support often count for far more than aptitude alone. At Sheffield for example, their students routinely get much higher marks than students of other courses - who have attended the same engineering lectures and take the same exams.

If the PPL is early in the course it also provides a fantastic basis for a genuine understanding of aeronautics that you don't get on a pure "engineering only" course taught mostly by academics with no real aeronautical experience. I think that this produces much better engineers anyhow.

The biggest headache that all of the courses suffer (as suggested below), is finding ways in which to effectively integrate the flying and engineering rather than have them co-existing as separate entities. Personally I think this is done best by Brunel, and least well by Sheffield - Liverpool are somewhere in between.

Another issue is that of the students who really just want to be airline pilots who realise part way through that's all they really want to do. Brunel is at the moment trying to deal with this by arranging an ATPL groundschool bolt-on which should be up and running next year, and there's something similar already on (less technically based) courses at City and BCUC, but I don't think that Liverpool and Sheffield are going in that direction.

Why do these courses? - after all, it's 3+ years of damned hard work, costing a lot of money. Well, I'd argue that...

- It provides both a degree, and a start on flying training

- The flying component is relatively small compared to the overall student debt you'll end up with these days anyway

- They are all being run by damned good universities

- If you want to work in aerospace / aviation, but you aren't all that sure about doing what, by the end of one of these courses you should have a damned good idea of what you want to do, and the abilities and bits of paper to get your foot firmly in the door of whichever profession in this wonderful field you want to pursue. There are so many fascinating jobs in aviation - ATC, RAF, Fleet Air Arm, aviation management, aviation insurance, air accident investigation, airport design, aeronautical researcher.... all of which could potentially be reached with a course like this as a starting point.

If you'd like to discuss further, I'm happy to do so here, or PM me.

G

Kerosine

6th Jan 2007, 12:16

Thanks for the replys folks.

The main issue I've got is finding out what I get for the time/money/crammed schedule. I'm struggling to dicipher the blurb and get down to how much I can actually complete in the three years and how it all fits together..

From the engineering dep. writeup on the course;

"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."

This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?

At the moment the only problem is getting the £35,000, as I cannot just get a personal loan for that amount. This is why the other thread was set up (cheers uuili) to talk more specifically about finance.
Airbus38 are you in the course atm?

Dave

MediQ

6th Jan 2007, 12:51

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, but I've a few questions that are probably relevant here.

Do you think it is an advantage for someone who aims to work in the aviation industry, as an engineer or otherwise, to have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering rather than Mechanical Engineering? I know the two disciplines are very similar.

I'll give you a bit of background info on the courses/colleges I'm thinking about:
1 - A top university with a very highly reputable mech eng department. They have an excellent course, facilities, final year project opportunities. Students perform very well in international eng competitions. Grads have gone to work in top aeronautical and aerospace companies.
2 - A good university with a really good rep for aero eng, especially with the big players in the aviation industry. They have a lot more modules in their course focussed on preparing grads for industry and half a year is spent in industry. I'm a bit concerned that the course mightn't be as deep as the others because of this. That's why I think a mech eng degree might be better, but I'd like your opinions.
3 - A college (doesn't have university status) with an excellent reputation for engineering. They have an excellent mech course, there is a bit more practical work than the universities, and there is a very strong emphasis on teaching. Students perform excellently in international engineering competitions. I think that the final year projects in this college are done in more depth than universities. Grads have gone to and have had highly successful careers in top aeronautical engineering companies and have pursued further study in top engineering universities.

On a personal level, if I go to no. 3, it'll mean having to stay at home for college - I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing at the moment. They all have a great atmosphere and are enjoyable places to learn.

I know I rambled on a bit there, but if you have an opinion on any of the (nameless) colleges, please share.

Thanks

Mohit_C

6th Jan 2007, 16:11

How good a possibility in this type of getting into airlines is this option?

planecrazy.eu

6th Jan 2007, 20:40

This might not help as i am a little bitter towards such schemes.

I did this for just under 12 weeks at another uni, it was a joke, i had been warned, but i decided i knew better, i cant really comment more but now i am doing just the Engineering at another Uni, its so much better, and there is plenty of time to do the pilot studys on my own and my own way in my own time and all that.

Having been to a top uni, i can say they are not all what they are said to be, the whole environment didnt suite me at all, it wasnt friendly, wasnt really liad back, it wasnt me.

I am doing Mechanical and Aero Eng, Mech is very very similar to Aero, but some of the disertations are going to be based on Aviation Eng rather than just General Eng. Maths and Physics in the course are more or less at a good A Level standard, they are at times made harder by the way they are laid out, once the teacher has broken them down for a few minutes you tend to get how to start looking at the maths problems.

I have only GCSE Maths and Physics, and so far have not really had problems with any of the materials

This is what i am doing

MEng in Mech Aero Eng and then onto Integrated FTE/OAT

I could at this stage go to FTE/OAT and transfer my credits to open uni and take there Mech Eng course.

Or

I could stay put and do a modular atpl.

I am sticking this year out, then i might go Integrated and transfer my credits to open uni to finish my degree, even though its not quite the same.

Just read what these pilots study courses are all about, and what the pilot study part cuts out of the Aero Eng content, as i seen some courses that cut some useful stuff out, and if i can see that, so can employers.

Listen to GTE and what he said, i listened to him, and glad i did for many resons, i am happy on Mech and Aero Eng, and happy i got shot of the pilot study part, but, make your own choice otherwise you may just go into uni regretting you didnt take it, they must work for some or they wouldnt offer the course.

Oh one more thing, they say what they offer on the Uni websites, i think the better of the bunch is the one in Conjunction with Stapleford, its London Met i think, thats ATPL where as some like Leeds and Brunel offer just the PPL as the pilot study part.

I doubt that this type of degree will land me an airline job, or even help it, i am doing it for a fall back plan, nothing more, nothing less, dont take a degree thinking its going to help get on the flight deck, as far as i can see and read, it aint going to help. What i can see is that been a star pupil at flight school and getting a recomendation, first passes and high passes is what may help you stand out to airlines, that and persistance with CV's and application forms.

As for Liverpool uni, just went ski-ing with those guys, they are seem to love it there, so no probs with how the uni is run or works

Genghis the Engineer

8th Jan 2007, 17:22

From the engineering dep. writeup on the course;

"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."

This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?

I don't know what Liverpool is up to, but the scheme I'm trying to get up and running at the moment (can't publically say for and with whom right now, sorry - but it'll probably get advertised in a few months, or PM me if you are desperate enough to know) will cost students something along the lines of:

- Degree: £9.2k tuition fees + books and living costs
- NPPL: £5.5k
- JAR PPL top-up flying: £1.5k
- ATPL groundschool: £5k (residential)

That'll get you to graduation, then to have hope of an airline job, you'll need:

- About 200 hrs P1
- CPL(A)/Multi course
- IR
- MCC course

These you can price up easily enough by looking around the web or at adverts the back of flying magazines.

Talking of career options, since apparently my opinion carries some weight (scares me that!), I'll offer mine as somebody with a reasonable background both in professional flying and engineering.

- If you have no intention of being anything but an airline pilot, don't waste your time with a degree.

- If you are uncertain about what career you are going for, but definitely want a fun job in aviation (either military or civil) - these courses are probably for you.

- If your primary interest is in becoming an Engineer, personally I'd still recommend them (an engineer who knows how to fly is a much better engineer), but start to question whether the ATPL bolt-on such as the one I'm developing is genuinely useful. (On the other hand, it's impossible for an Engineer to know too much about aeroplanes.)

G

'India-Mike

8th Jan 2007, 20:45

As usual from Genghis, a very apposite post. And very candid given that you're preparing an Engineering/Flying programme at the moment!
My view is that these programmes should produce a more rounded individual, an 'aeronaut' rather than just an engineer or a pilot alone. But.....the aero degree is serious overkill for an ATPL; ATPL theory nowhere near comes close in my opinion, to any kind of degree equivalence (knowing how many fire extinguishers and oxygen masks are needed in a 232 seat aeroplane for example is hardly going to help you with Navier-Stokes equations or use of PDE's in aeroelastic analyses). I'm not being snobbish or elitist - it's just a statement of fact.
However, there are some good compementary bits that can pull ATPL study and degree-level work together - like in performance why 1.32 Vimd is 1.32 (you just have to know it for ATPL, not where it comes from).
So on balance I think such programmes are a good thing if done properly, and done well. Get to see ATPL study in an engineering context, but don't water-down the content and level of the engineering. The latter would be my main anxiety.
But for God's sake don't get any old university academic to teach ATPL - they won't have a clue. A successful engineering/pilot degree course will need at least university staff qualified to PPL level (in my aero eng department, that's 1 out of 16 and most UK uni's are the same); better still get someone who's 'demonstrated ATPL theoretical knowledge' ie done the writtens. Even rarer (I know 3 in the UK, I'm one, but there may be more).
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.
'IM applies Kevlar to vital regions, and steps back for incoming......

Kerosine

8th Jan 2007, 21:17

I think I'm going to go for my PPL in the next 18 month and get some hours logged,
do an aerospace engineering degree (as i do love engineering),
fly with the local airfield whilst at Uni if money permits,
use this to get myself a secure graduate job,
pay off my uni debt (whilsts PPLing over the country),
then go for the full on fATPL when I can secure funding.

Amen

Ghostie31

8th Jan 2007, 21:17

If you want to do engineering and fly (amongst other fantastic oppourtunities) join the University Air Squadron. If you have any questions about it, pm me. I'll be happy to explain.

Good luck in what ever you decide to do.

Ghostie

Genghis the Engineer

9th Jan 2007, 10:03

For those who hadn't guessed, I-M and I have a fair and friendly history of open technical discussion with each other!, as well as fairly similar professional roles and backgrounds....

As usual from Genghis, a very apposite post. And very candid given that you're preparing an Engineering/Flying programme at the moment!

Candour is, IMHO, vital. Nobody gains from students doing courses for which they aren't suited.

My view is that these programmes should produce a more rounded individual, an 'aeronaut' rather than just an engineer or a pilot alone. But.....the aero degree is serious overkill for an ATPL; ATPL theory nowhere near comes close in my opinion, to any kind of degree equivalence (knowing how many fire extinguishers and oxygen masks are needed in a 232 seat aeroplane for example is hardly going to help you with Navier-Stokes equations or use of PDE's in aeroelastic analyses). I'm not being snobbish or elitist - it's just a statement of fact.

I partly agree with you there. ATPL is a very different beast from a degree. A degree is primarily about in-depth understanding, research, analysis, and use of information. An ATPL is about learning and being able to reproduce large amounts of important information, but only to a specific level. The former is more important to an Engineer, the latter to a professional Pilot - but neither loses out by having the other skillset I'd argue.

However, there are some good compementary bits that can pull ATPL study and degree-level work together - like in performance why 1.32 Vimd is 1.32 (you just have to know it for ATPL, not where it comes from).

Yes !

So on balance I think such programmes are a good thing if done properly, and done well. Get to see ATPL study in an engineering context, but don't water-down the content and level of the engineering. The latter would be my main anxiety.

Agree completely. The scheme I'm trying to set up (I'll tell you about it over a dram sometime) will bring in ATPL groundschool during the university long vacations - so it's student holidays that will suffer, not core degree content. (At-least, if we get it right!)

But for God's sake don't get any old university academic to teach ATPL - they won't have a clue.

And CAA wouldn't permit it anyway - people teaching ATPL have to have equivalent qualifications, and operate under a CAA approval.

A successful engineering/pilot degree course will need at least university staff qualified to PPL level (in my aero eng department, that's 1 out of 16 and most UK uni's are the same); better still get someone who's 'demonstrated ATPL theoretical knowledge' ie done the writtens. Even rarer (I know 3 in the UK, I'm one, but there may be more).
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.

I confess, I only went for CPL myself - since whilst I love my flying and engineering, I've no use for an IR in the flying I do - which is the primary difference, also the odds of my wishing to, or anybody asking me to, fly left hand seat in an airliner with pax on board are as near nil as makes no difference.

But, I agree with the sentiment totally. Too many UK universities try to teach flying-related subjects without having sufficient in-house aviation knowledge. Similarly most UK aeronautical universities have flight simulators - and little or no real knowledge about either simulation or aircraft operations: so what do they think they're going to teach with these expensive ornaments?

'IM applies Kevlar to vital regions, and steps back for incoming......
You'll have to try harder than that to cause offence I-M !

G

TruthSlayer

9th Jan 2007, 18:26

Hi,

Can anyone give me any inside info on the Leeds aviation degree, specifically whether the papers are any good, whether anyone who has done the degree has had a good response when training or applying for a job, etc.

Are the lecturers any good?

Thank you.:uhoh:

Kerosine

10th Jan 2007, 07:39

From the UCAS website;

"Our study facilities
The course is run by the School of Process, Environmental and Materials Engineering."

I don't know much about the specific course at Leeds (other than the actual uni has a good rep), however here is the table for aeronautical engineering souced from the "Times online - Good University Guide" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,6734,00.html click on aeronautical eng)

Good luck with applications TruthSlayer, after a fair bit of research I reckon getting a degree first sounds like the best bet (I'm going for aerospace eng).

Dave

Mo91

12th Jan 2007, 10:34

Hello there all
I have heard that there are universities that do all the ATPL theory as part of there aerospace engineering course. Does anyone have specific details as to which uni is the best for this course and which actually do the theory as well. It would be most appreciated if anyone with experience of these types of universities could help out, or even if someone just has any information regarding this topic.
Anyone with information regarding Plymouth's course would be most welcome to post about their experiences
thanks in advance
Mohammed

Tamesy1

12th Jan 2007, 12:41

Leeds do an excellent and rather unique 'aviation and pilot studies' course. Im at Leeds uni (not doing aviation), but have friends on the course who cant recommend it highly enough...

Mo91

12th Jan 2007, 13:12

Thanks pal. Would anyone be able to expand on that, maybe with material studied and costs.

scruggs

12th Jan 2007, 13:51

http://tldynamic.leeds.ac.uk/ugcoursefinder/2007/prospectus3SQL.asp?prog_id=840

http://www.engineering.leeds.ac.uk/cgi-bin/sis/eng/ext/programme.cgi?cmd=details&level=ug&progcode=BS-AT%2FPILOT

Mo91

12th Jan 2007, 13:57

"Pilot training is provided to the level of PPL by Northern Aviation based at Durham Tees Valley Airport"
I have quoted this from the above website. This surely doesn't mean that they will fund your PPL does it? I'm sorry I'm just a young lad who needs some help so appropriate responses would be appreciated. I'm guessing that all they mean by that is that they teach you all the theory for the PPL license, correct me if I'm worng please.
Thanks in advance
Mohammed

scruggs

12th Jan 2007, 14:07

Hi,

As far as I am aware they only teach the theory.

eP.

Mo91

12th Jan 2007, 14:22

Thanks again. Thats what I thought! Anyone with details about Plymouth University?

edymonster

12th Jan 2007, 15:08

London Metropolitan do a degree in Managment and Operations whihc include your PPL and ATPL studies

Kerosine

12th Jan 2007, 15:15

This is a link to the site that lists the Unis doing aerospace related topics (you can see which ones are 'with pilot studies' etc)

http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsrun/search/search/StateId/RHJeDoKgX-rI55SGt75V5wHpTJ6J1-VUxT/HAHTpage/search.HsKeywordSuggestion.whereNext?query=15&word=AEROSPACE&single=N

Dave
:ok:

Edited jan 07

Link doesnt work.

Go onto www.ucas.com (http://www.ucas.com)
Go on 'courses' on left menu
go to '2007' or whatever year in the centre of the screen.
then click 'subject search'
Then choose Aerospace Engineering or Aviation to see a list of courses

combineharvester

12th Jan 2007, 20:43

At the Leeds University course you used to get £1500 as a bursary towards the PPL (which is the mininum hours required 40 Aircraft 5 sim) the rest is covered by the student. So if you go over hours, which is the case with many it will be at your own expense. I believe this bursary will eventually be phased out.
The PPL theory is taught at the university, but usually by some if not all of the instructors that will be teaching you the flying syllabus. The flying is split into two sessions. Session 1 is completed in the summer holidays between year 1 + 2 of the course. Session 2 is timetabled into 2nd Year alongside university studies.
There is no flying timetabled for Level 3. (but it has happened)
Apart from the general university material covered to satisfy the schools core requirements for the grant of a BSc, there are modules taught by external lecturers. These are of extreme value to those who wish to further their training after graduation and include Crew Resource Management & Flight Planning
Any further questions on the leeds course PM me or ask me here, I was on the inaugural intake and after my fATPL instructed on the course this summer, so im reasonably in the know about it, if nothing else in life
hope this helps
ch

Mo91

12th Jan 2007, 21:04

Thanks, I really need information now on the University in Plymouth. All help would be most appreciated

euromann

14th Jan 2007, 11:27

combineharvester,

As you have instructed on the Leeds University course I would be grateful if you could clear up an area of confusion for me. I'm considering applying onto the course this year but I have received contradicting information on how the actual flight training is carried out. In one area of the Leeds university website it states that the flying is conducted through Northern Aviation in Teeside but on another it states that it is done through Leeds Flying School? Could you tell me which of these is correct and if indeed it is to be done at Teeside how the university plans to get the students there in the first place. Also could you tell me if the flying instructors are University Instructors who only be instructing the university students or are they Northern/Leeds instructors who will have other students on the books at the same time. Finally, during your time instructing for this course and in fact studying on it, in your opinion how would you rate the course on a whole in terms of the flying side and the actual university based side?

Thanks in advance

euromann

combineharvester

14th Jan 2007, 18:49

euromann,
The current 1st year (those who started university september 2006) Are to be taught by Northern aviation based at Durham Tees Valley. I spent a week instructing up there as well (not teaching university students) and the facilities and procedures in place there seem well prepared for when the students arrive in a few months. The current second year (2005 intake) were upto the end of the summer (when i concluded my employment there) being taught by Leeds Flying School based at Sandtoft Aerodrome (45 mins away) In terms of value on the course, i found there were several subjects studied that were of benefit during my subsequent ATPL studies. namely the ones taught by the external lecturers mentioned in my above post. As a university instructor, i only taught university students, we all however would do the occasional bit of instructing for a neighbouring school, but never at the deference of the university programme
Leeds is also an excellent university town, you will enjoy the play side of uni very much there. Any other questions give me a shout
Ian

combineharvester

15th Jan 2007, 18:17

Glad to see the students i taught will be looked after from now on!

Kerosine

16th Jan 2007, 10:31

This is a link to the site that lists the Unis doing aerospace related topics (you can see which ones are 'with pilot studies' etc)

http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsr...SPACE&single=N (http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsrun/search/search/StateId/RHJeDoKgX-rI55SGt75V5wHpTJ6J1-VUxT/HAHTpage/search.HsKeywordSuggestion.whereNext?query=15&word=AEROSPACE&single=N)

Dave
:ok:

Edited jan 07

Link doesnt work.

Go onto www.ucas.com (http://www.ucas.com/)
Go on 'courses' on left menu
go to '2007' or whatever year in the centre of the screen.
then click 'subject search'
Then choose Aerospace Engineering or Aviation to see a list of courses.

Dave

euromann

16th Jan 2007, 22:17

Hope i'm not missing out on something really obvious here but who is Ian Richards?

combineharvester

18th Jan 2007, 15:43

Ian R is the Chief Flying Instructor of the Leeds University course, he has been instructing on the course since its conception, indeed he taught me to fly! and subsequently became my boss when i returned to teach. A nicer or shorter man you would struggle to meet!

hobbit1983

18th Jan 2007, 16:22

I'm planning to attend this course in 18 months (after I've passed the ATPLS) - http://www.kingston.ac.uk/aviation/ (I've spoken to the admissions people - they say this is possible to do).

i'm aware that this is probably, academically, not a strong a degree as others. But then, I don't have the aptitude or desire to be an engineer, and also think it's probably more worthwhile than a degree in the "underwater basket weaving" category.

Is anyone else planning on enrolling onto the one-year top up degree course at Kingston once they've got a frozen ATPL? If so...what did you think?

Any learned members out there who are involved in degree accreditation/graduate employment etc, would very much like to hear your views.

Thanks

cedmondson684

23rd Jan 2007, 15:35

I am currently a holder of a JAR-FCL(A) CPL, Single Pilot Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, ATPL Theory Credits and FI Rating. I am trying to find an aviation related academic or vocational qualification that recognises and credits prior learning towards most, if not all, of the course. I have had limited luck with various universities re their FDSc in Aviation studies.

Has anyone had any experience with this? :8

MrsMuggins

1st Feb 2007, 12:43

My son is looking at all the various ways of becoming a pilot - we've read the threads about which school is best! - but he's also looking at the course at Bucks Chilterns University College "Air Transport Studies with Commercial Pilot Training". Has anyone heard of a graduate from this course actually getting a job? Is it regarded as "proper" training? They use Cabair for the actual pilot training so I guess it should be, but one thing we have found from reading the forum posts is that the competition for jobs is fierce and I'd hate my son's chances to be hampered by going for "sub-standard" training...

Groundloop

2nd Feb 2007, 07:37

"Bucks Chilterns University College "Air Transport Studies with Commercial Pilot Training". Has anyone heard of a graduate from this course actually getting a job?"

I'm not sure if the course has been running long enough for anyone to have graduated yet. I think the first group of students are now in the final year.

zuluflyer

13th Feb 2007, 18:29

has anyone studided the air transport operations with pilot studies at city and i was wondering if u could tell me more about it and if it is a good course also how long does it take to become a captain i was thinking 6 years is this reality

snoopy122

13th Feb 2007, 18:45

Hey there. I've heard of city's programme, but I'm not attending it.
The usual time for an ATPL course is around 1.5 to 2 years. If you're lucky enough to find a job immediatly afterwards it takes around 8 years to become a captain. So if you start tomorrow and everything goes great for you, I get to call you captain in around 10 years. This differs for every airline.

I've heard the ATPL programme at city takes 3 years. If you have any more specific questions let us know.

revilo_rehsif

13th Feb 2007, 23:13

Hey zuluflyer
Im currently on the Air Transport operations course at city, im currently in my first year at the moment. If you have any questions or queries dont hesitate to ask either on the forum or pm me.
regards

Revilo

Groundloop

14th Feb 2007, 07:22

Air Transport Operations at City is a 3 year degree. The ATPL is completed at the end of Year 2 and the third year is taken on a part-time basis. Therefore it is possible (and happens) to begin flying after the 2nd year and continue the 3rd year over 24 months if required.

zuluflyer

21st Feb 2007, 09:40

is it a hard course and i dont get what the first year is about

Groundloop

21st Feb 2007, 11:50

and i dont get what the first year is about

What don't you get? Could you be a bit more specific please and then we might be able to answer your questions?

hobbit1983

21st Feb 2007, 15:29

Groundloop,

I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere, but do you know if it's possible to enter the course straight into the 3rd year with an fATPL? I.e. do the ATPL theory elsewhere, then do the 3rd year to get awarded a degree?

Genghis the Engineer

21st Feb 2007, 16:23

Hobbit, in general the answer will be no on any degree course. The rigours of an ATPL are, I'm afraid, academically well below that of the vast majority of degree courses.

I am aware of a case recently where one of the universities that have been mentioned above was asked about ATPL as an entry for a BEng course. Their decision was "yes, at level 1, if you've also got A-level maths".

G

zuluflyer

21st Feb 2007, 18:17

what do u learn in the first year

Don_Simon

21st Feb 2007, 18:29

is it a hard course and i dont get what the first year is about

I've heard it's a bit of a mickey mouse course in it's present state and was told to avoid it by a few people I've spoken to. Main problem being the first year not being worth £9000 by any stretch of the imagination. The third year I think is £6000 for something like a week at university! Oh yeah and they have to build an A320 simulator too!! Well it's a Frasca actually. What that has to do with becoming a pilot?.... very little. I'm sure they're making enough money to be able to get a professional to do it.

I went to their open day some time back and have kept in touch with some students. I believe they've expressed their concerns about the lack of mental stimulation, lack of relevancy in some areas and high course fees to the course director, but so far I don't think anything has been changed.

Having said all that, it is a new course and it does have a lot of potential, but not much value in it's present state.

I Hope you find this helpful.

Groundloop

22nd Feb 2007, 07:56

Well, I am afraid that I CANNOT let the above post go unchallenged. I hope that Scroggs will allow me to reply.

Firstly, I have absolutely no record of a "Don Simon" EVER applying to, or attending, an open day for Air Transport Operations. Of course, being PPRuNe this may not be his (or her) real name. If not could he please PM me privately with his real name and when he attended an Open Day. I will then withdraw the above comment.

Regarding his comments about the concerns of student on the course. NOT a single student has expressed to me the concerns he lists. We carry out a very rigorous annual student feedback exercise every year (anonymously) and have always had very positive responses. Also, being a small group I keep very closely in touch with all students and they always tell me they are satisfied with the course.

The building of the A320 simulator (it is not a Frasca) is a group exercise. The fact that the result is a cockpit simulator is a bonus. The idea behind the project is to encourage group working (allocating of tasks, meeting deadlines and report writing) and researching and recommending of sources for parts. Oh, and programming the simulator does provide a good insight into how the Airbus flightdeck concept works.

Also the course has been running since 1999 (the first in the UK to include pilot training - despite some similar claims from other universities) and we currently have a graduate employment rate of 100% with 85% of them currently flying as pilots.

Hobbit1983, in answer to your question, if you already hold an fATPL it is NOT possible to enter into the 3rd year. For a start, universities cannot award an honours degree for only one year of attendance. What we have had in the past is that 4 students with fATPLS have done the first year and then gone straght to the (part-time) 3rd year as the fATPL is the 2nd year.

Apologies for the above long post but some very serious allegations have
been made which cannot go without a response.

hobbit1983

22nd Feb 2007, 09:05

Genghis, Groundloop, thanks for your replies. I didn't really expect universities to award degrees on the basis of the ATPL theory...but thought it was worth asking!

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Feb 2007, 11:18

Not criticising anything Groundloop has said, but commenting if I may:

- Malign scuttlebut goes on about every course, usually due to lack of knowledge. The only real solution is to find out for yourself, from those delivering it, and those who have had it delivered to them already.

- Major design and build exercises are fundamental I think to pretty much all of the courses discussed so far, particularly in teams. I'd be worried to see any course that didn't include these elements.

- Every course has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I'd not go to (say) BCUC if I wanted to be a professional engineer, and probably not Sheffield if my primary objective was to be a professional pilot. This isn't a criticism of either, only a comment upon their differences.

- Any degree course is about learning material, deep understanding, analysis and problem solving. An ATPL is primarily about learning and reproducing material - it is highly likely that anybody whose only significant qualification is an fATPL would be able to survive on any degree course if they were launched directly into the third, or even second year. The education is tough, but progressive - that's just the nature of a degree.

G

KKM

22nd Feb 2007, 12:25

Don Simon, I understand your concerns about investing time and money into a degree course, however you are totally ill informed.

I completed the course at City University in June 2004 having attended university for 2 years and 1 year at flight training school. I was lucky enough to have a job in August the same year. I now fly both short and long haul operating 757 and 767.

The course at City was not only demanding, thought provoking, interesting but personally has provided me with a great platform to enter the industry.

At airline interviews, my degree at City was perceived to be highly advantageous whilst also allowing better responses to many business type questions i was asked. Now within the airline industry it still provides great background to many of the tasks and problems i have to deal with regularly.

City University undoubtably provided the best 2 years of my life, its a great place to study and live, money well spent i would say.

If you would like to get in touch or have any qu's about the course, please feel free to email.

Limitations.

23rd Feb 2007, 12:11

I am a graduate of the ATOPS course at CITY University (September 2006). Since then I worked in the Operations office of a very reputable Airline company founded in 1954 (I firstly learned about it on the Airline History lecture of the course). Now I secured flying job with the same company on their A320 aircraft and I’m having a good time. The course actually helped me a lot to blend in with the culture (which I learned from the Air Safety Management lecture of the course how important it is) and to actually get this job from the contacts I made working in Operations.
So if Mickey Mouse asks me tomorrow early morning at FL340 was it all worth it?
I definitely would say YES!
Reply for: Don Simons quote : mickey mouse course.

bennyboi75

28th Mar 2007, 12:56

heyhey, i have been looking into doing a degree which also includes pilot studies and have seen a few limited options such as avionic studies at liverpool university. i can't seem to find much infomation on the subject but am i right in thinking i will loose all free time available to fly. do you think it is worth it nd do any of you know the cost???

hobbit1983

28th Mar 2007, 13:55

Do a search - IIRC there were at least 2 recent threads on this. From personal experience of the BCUC course, you certainly don't loose all free time to the flying - more so to studying for the exams, but to no great extent.

Having said that, I suspect the BCUC degree was nowhere near as taxing as some of the pilot/engineering combinations out there - from my perspective, at least the first year wasn't academically challenging as an engineering degree (I have first hand experience of both).

Re-Heat

28th Mar 2007, 14:18

Do one or the other, not both - are you interested in avionics or flying.

Look at the University or not master thread - all answers are contained therein.

Jimmy123

10th Apr 2007, 21:18

Is this course repuitable/any good

Its this course or lboro to do aero eng, and im torn?!

Any ideas? cheers

bcarrick

11th Apr 2007, 01:56

hi everybody or anyone

im just wondering can anybody help me im a 16 year old student pilot and am wondering does any airline offer sponserships or anything to such young pilots i have my ppl but am just waitin to turn 17 so i only have a spl now i would be very greatful if somebody could get bck to me

MrHorgy

11th Apr 2007, 21:36

I enrolled on the Leeds course, and it was a complete shambles. Admittedly, I was the first year they had offered it, but they really didn't seem to have that much aviation about it - from what I gathered they taught you PPL theory as a double module and there were a couple more modules, but most were physics and maths.

I'm not one to say you don't NEED those skills, but some of the syllabus didn't seem relevant - i'm finding that even now as I go through Mod II at bristol.

I'd take a raincheck and have a good poke around the uni first, I only last 4 months as I got sick and left the course (not booted out as one kinda ppruner tried to point out), but i think i'm better off now, I have PPL 110hours, nearly done my theories and going to Stapleford (if they'll have me) in June.

Horgy

preduk

11th Apr 2007, 22:06

My best friend does Aero Eng at Glasgow University, he got AAAB for his highers and finds the course really tough!

A degree is a degree at the end of the day, and if you have one it helps it certain areas. I know of a few pilots who have the degree and have got jobs with an airline.

pre3mhjt

12th Apr 2007, 12:40

Hi Guy/Gals,

A rare venture for me outside the realms of the CTC threads, but I couldn’t let a debate about my beloved course at Leeds go without my 2 cents.

Admittedly Mr. Horgy the 1st year wasn’t the best run affair, however after quitting after 4 months I think you have very little right to comment on the overall ability of the staff at Leeds to deliver the course. I went through in the second year, which still wasn’t perfect, but many improvements were beginning to shine through. For instance, the addition of a motion simulator and access to both wind tunnels and gas turbines for my final year project were a massive boost. I would also strongly disagree that the lectures were ‘irrelevant’; something that you would have realised had you made it past freshers week!

I’m currently in New Zealand with CTC along with 6 other colleagues from the 2003 Leeds class, who I think would whole heartedly support the view that nearly all the ATPL theory that we are currently learning is simply a case of revision due to the modules taken throughout our second and third years.

You must also realise that the Pilot Studies option will allow you to do a virtually ‘integrated’ PPL for around 2500GBP through Leeds Flying School (don’t get me started) which on its own represents a massive saving! (I know student loans etc etc add up, but aviation in any form is not a bad subject to study if it’s what you really want to get into, and doing it at Leeds is even better due to awesome nightlife, likeminded people and professional atmosphere).

The 7 of us on the Wings course out here represent around a 60/70% pass rate of all those who applied from my year of the Leeds course (compared to an (inter)national average of around 5% at most) so we must be doing something right! (and please don’t for a minute think that I believe that getting onto CTC is the be all and end all of getting into the industry, but its is certainly one of the better options!)

At the end of the day it is, as Lovezzin says, a choice between 2 totally different courses, although I would heavily dispute the fact that my degree was a ‘doss’!! Aviation Tech is a BSc and Aero Eng is a BEng, you can draw your own conclusions as to required intelligence and workload from that!

I could go on, however if anyone genuinely wants an insight into the Leeds course or CTC (excluding the ‘can you please write my application/what should I say if they ask me this/how do I practise for this/can you tie my shoes before I go to stage 2’ questions) then please feel free to PM me.
Pre3