'Err...can they do that?'

[Cumbrian Fell]

There have been many postings concerning the distanciation (yes, there is such a word) between HM forces and the British public. To illustrate this, I learned just before Christmas that I will go off on a long and dusty det very shortly. Mrs CF was cross but eventually accepted it with the grace comendable of all service spouses. However, over Christmas, a number of civilian friends and neighbours, on learning of my impending deployment, quizically stated.."Can they (the 'military') just send you away like that?" Furthermore, knowing that I can be a difficult and argumentative b@stard, several naively questioned "Why don't you say No?"
By way of explanation, we live far from the madding crowd in a completely demilitarised community (and house - not even the Commissioning Parchment in the loo...) but it is clear that the concept of being ordered to go on operations and complying with a lawful order (without questioning it) has been lost on those who have no contact with the military. The public assume that service personnel have greater freedom of employment and association than we can exercise. Several more liberal friends suggested that I should not go in order to protest against governmrnt policy; nonetheless, comments and advice has generally been well meant. During this time we had a gas leak in our kitchen and a gas fitter spent three days replacing the meter and associated pipework. Just before he left, he came up to me and said, "You're a brave guy to go out there, please be careful, for your family's sake" and then shook my hand warmly. I felt very humbled and he left me with quite a lump in my throat.
I won't trivialise the discussion about all the other misapprehensions many civilians have, but suffice to say that unless the public have had direct involvment of the post Cold War military environment, they haven't got a Scooby...

[L J R]

.....off you go then Lad.

[That SAR Chap]

You are right, 'distanciation' doesn't exist.

You could always kick off and wriggle out of your det. Someone else will happily go in your place at short notice.

[ORAC]

I think the word you are probably looking for is alienation. :(

[Cumbrian Fell]

Distanciation is a term used in Globalisation used to describe the widening gap between the self and 'the other'.

The point that I clearly didn't make too well is that I will skip happily off to my det as we all do; but civilians simply don't understand that in many matters, we military chaps and chapesses simply don't have a huge say in these matters.

[teeteringhead]

I guess it's partly a culture thing that the services will some day have to address - but I don't know how.

The fruits of my loins are all doing well in their jobs, and enjoyed immensely much of the service life. They also accept that to advance in any profession you have to move around. What they found very difficult in the service context was the lack of choice in those moves.......

Hence no junior teeters in uniforms ....... about which I have very mixed feelings......

[Whirlygig]

but civilians simply don't understand

Some civilians surely?

Cheers

Whirls

[TMJ]

...a number of civilian friends and neighbours, on learning of my impending deployment, quizically stated.."Can they (the 'military') just send you away like that?" Furthermore, knowing that I can be a difficult and argumentative b@stard, several naively questioned "Why don't you say No?"
<snip>
...the concept of being ordered to go on operations and complying with a lawful order (without questioning it) has been lost on those who have no contact with the military. The public assume that service personnel have greater freedom of employment and association than we can exercise.
<snip>
I won't trivialise the discussion about all the other misapprehensions many civilians have, but suffice to say that unless the public have had direct involvment of the post Cold War military environment, they haven't got a Scooby...

Not entirely surprising but slightly at odds with my experience; when I was in the recruiting world I met a lot of people whose perception of our lifestyle owed more to a 1950s Army image than to reality... "Are you allowed out at weekends?" was a common question, even from people who'd done a reasonable amount of research into joining up.

[Gainesy]

Some civvy misconceptions I've noted over the years--some as recent as last week*. Some are totally wrong, some are mixing up what used to be with present practice or US practice. Most civvies are astonished when put right.

Food and accom is free.

MQs/hirings (or whatever they are called this week) are free.

Forces don't pay Income Tax.

Forces don't pay Income Tax when deployed on Ops.*

Duty free booze/tobacco can be bought on Service bases.*

Fuel on base service stations is duty free.

Rail/air travel within UK is free.

No TV licence required.

If you get a medal then you receive a £500 annuity.

Laugh or cry?

[London Mil]

Some civvy misconceptions I've noted over the years--some as recent as last week*. Some are totally wrong, some are mixing up what used to be with present practice or US practice. Most civvies are astonished when put right.
Food and accom is free.
MQs/hirings (or whatever they are called this week) are free.
Forces don't pay Income Tax.
Forces don't pay Income Tax when deployed on Ops.*
Duty free booze/tobacco can be bought on Service bases.*
Fuel on base service stations is duty free.
Rail/air travel within UK is free.
No TV licence required.
If you get a medal then you receive a £500 annuity.
Laugh or cry?


May the govt should listen to the people?:p

[dallas]

Some civvy misconceptions I've noted over the years--some as recent as last week*. Some are totally wrong, some are mixing up what used to be with present practice or US practice. Most civvies are astonished when put right.

Food and accom is free.

MQs/hirings (or whatever they are called this week) are free.

Forces don't pay Income Tax.

Forces don't pay Income Tax when deployed on Ops.*

Duty free booze/tobacco can be bought on Service bases.*

Fuel on base service stations is duty free.

Rail/air travel within UK is free.

No TV licence required.

If you get a medal then you receive a £500 annuity.

Laugh or cry?

In 5 years time they'll have to do most of this to get anybody to stay in.

[Gainesy]

Point is, a large percentage of Civvy St think you have all that already and so largely dismiss any valid points raised on pay/morale/accom etc as whinging and moaning from cosseted prima donnas.

Any JOs or junior ORs still on benefits BTW?

[WorkingHard]

There are many variables to the public perception of Britain's finest and not all good ones sadly. In my view, and quite a few people I have spoken to on the subject agree, I believe that service personnel not on service duty should not be in public except in "proper" uniform. In other words the scruffy working clothes that are seen so often these days do not distinguish the trained and highly disciplined from the scruffs who buy their clothes from the local surplus stores. This cannot be good and a line ought to be drawn somewhere on this point. You have worked long and hard for the right to wear the uniform so why not show it off to best advantage?
Gainsey - the upper earnings limit beyond which benefit is no longer payable is now nearly £54000 per annum so the vast majority of the population of the UK (if they meet the other criteria) will be entitled to some benefits. I believe the pay for the armed forces puts you well above average for the UK.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I think you'll find that service law demands that the serviceman/woman is smartly turned out.

As for the other points - see this older thread:

Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111156)

[Radar Command T/O]

Some civvy misconceptions I've noted over the years--some as recent as last week*. Some are totally wrong, some are mixing up what used to be with present practice or US practice. Most civvies are astonished when put right.
Food and accom is free.
MQs/hirings (or whatever they are called this week) are free.
Forces don't pay Income Tax.
Forces don't pay Income Tax when deployed on Ops.*
Duty free booze/tobacco can be bought on Service bases.*
Fuel on base service stations is duty free.
Rail/air travel within UK is free.
No TV licence required.
If you get a medal then you receive a £500 annuity.
Laugh or cry?

The most recent one I had was actually from a civvy friend's mother who was adamant that because I flew I had to be in the RAF, and no amount of argument was going to convice her that I am actually RN. I believe she even went as far as to suggest that I must be mistaken as to which Service I was in. (I've never been that drunk!):confused:

Now I know that RN PR is not always the best in the world, but when you're fighting this level of ignorance, it can't be easy!

[splitbrain]

Came across a similar thing some years ago when some mates wanted me to go to the Munich beer festival with them and I was on SGF. They couldn't really see why I couldn't just say 'no'.
3 or 4 years ago we were sent a CD Rom containing video interviews with members of the public about the armed forces. The level of ignorance displayed was quite apalling but, on reflection, unsurprising.
To most civilians their job is just that, their job. They go to work do it and then go home. If they want to get on or earn more money they stay later, do overtime, get themselves noticed or whatever. The notion of their employer holding any authority over them outside of their job is non-existant and why should it be otherwise I suppose? Many civilians struggle to cope when faced with ANY authority at all, even a simple parking fine or speeding ticket can elicit a quite dispproportionate response!

[Mr C Hinecap]

The most recent one I had was actually from a civvy friend's mother who was adamant that because I flew I had to be in the RAF, and no amount of argument was going to convice her that I am actually RN. I believe she even went as far as to suggest that I must be mistaken as to which Service I was in. (I've never been that drunk!):confused:


s0d that! I have to tell people that just because I'm in the RAF, I don't fly aircraft! The shame of it - to think, I worked quite hard at school as well.

[Brewster Buffalo]

.........
3 or 4 years ago we were sent a CD Rom containing video interviews with members of the public about the armed forces...

with what purpose in mind?

[splitbrain]

with what purpose in mind?

Good question well presented! The 'we' in question was RAF Cosford and if I recall correctly the CDRom was part of an information package designed to demonstrate to us (us being the RAF) just what we faced in terms of public ignorance of our role, day to day life, what sort of people we were etc One person said he pictured RAF personnel (whom he'd never encountered) as being arrogant :uhoh: :mad:
I later recall sitting in a COs brief in which he made mention of the same sort of ignorance issues, he actually said that the few people who knew what the RAF was about were sat in rooms similar to the one we were in!
Ultimately it was all about raising the public profile of the service, what became of it I know not.....

[threepointonefour]

He is quite right. Look here there is even a website about it.

http://www.distanciation.com/


Rubbish. "Distanciation" appears in none of the following dictionaries; OED, Collins, Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, One-Look.

The word, "distantia' is latin, meaning "to stand apart".

Since when was 'Globalisation' the arbiter of authentic words. Ditto for the existence of a website - I checked, and couldn't see 'skynews' in the OED either (as in www.skynews.com (http://www.skynews.com)). I can't stand this modern drivel where no-one ever says any real words ....

Rant off.

Now what was the point?

[henry crun]

The subject of the general public and the services reminds me of my physics master for the last couple of years at school.
I bumped into him about three years after I left and we chatted for a couple of minutes, then he asked "what are you doing now Crun ?"

I said, with more than a little pride, "I am a pilot in the Royal Air Force sir."

He snorted and replied "I always said you'd come to no good" and stalked off. :)

[Cumbrian Fell]

Having been away for a week or two, I have not been able to follow this discussion. However, it is interesting to hear that civilians without direct experience of the forces either fall into the liberal 'Just say no' group or the deferent 'Are you allowed to do that?' group. However, none of our viewpoints necessarily tell the complete story.
A family friend, whose son is a fast-jet pilot, and is avidly 'air minded' can't get to grips with the fact that not everyone in the RAF is a pilot. This very clever man, now retired from a senior position in a blue-chip company, assumed that only pilots needed DV clearances because only 'pilots do the important jobs!'. Of course, in one sense he is completely correct, but it still demonstrates that even well-informed members of the public haven't got a Scooby as to the activities of the Light Blue in toto. How can we better inform the public? Should the public 'need to know'? Do they care? Would you watch a programme on, say, the activities of staff within DEFRA?
Admittedly, DEFRA staff don't quite put their lives on the line for the benefit of the British public. (unless you are a State Veterinary Inspector) and thereis an intrinsic interest in what HMF do. Perhaps some reality TV programme, with 'real' people showing life on a squadron - Engineers, loggies, scribblies etc as well as the aircrew might help to redress the balance of understanding. Remember the very interesting (and sometimes toe-curlingly cringing) series on an RN warship (Brazen?) made about three years ago. The Matelots came across as normal people undertaking extraordinary jobs.
Oh, and because a word is not in the OCD does it mean that it doesn't exist? I am, of course, referring to Distanciation. It is an imutable rule of Globalisation writers to invent new words. Globality is another one...

[Widger]

Off to the sandpit I go....just pick up this kitbag...oh.....ooooooooooooooooooohhhh..............owwwwww ....me back!

[ZH875]

Rubbish. "Distanciation" appears in none of the following dictionaries; OED, Collins, Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, One-Look.Dictionaries are always changing their contents. The latest OED has removed the word 'Gullible'

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Mr C:confused:

"s0d that! I have to tell people that just because I'm in the RAF, I don't fly aircraft! The shame of it - to think, I worked quite hard at school as well."

I am struggling to see the correlation with working hard at school and the Supply Branch, can you please enlighten me:p

[Gainesy]

[QUOTE][Perhaps some reality TV programme, with 'real' people showing life on a squadron - Engineers, loggies, scribblies etc as well as the aircrew might help to redress the balance of understanding. /QUOTE]

In 1998-9 I was engaged by the BBC to assist in making a series of the programme Airshow. The main thrust of that series was to outline that capabilities of UK air power. Big day-long meet at Beeb HQ with reps from RAF, FAA and AAC. Outlines of what we wanted to do were presented and we worked out a reasonable, doable, series-plan and overall scenario.

Everybody, from Wg Cdr level on down was helpful in the extreme, in all three Services. As for the RAF, everybody from Wg Cdr on up got increasingly blunt and anal. One Gp Capt (who ISTR wrote a series of boring air power lectures for Air Clues) insisted we wrote the script using AP3000 terminology, which the audience would not have understood. In the end we had to ignore him as he disappeared in a vortex of his own memos.

Restrictions on cameras in cockpits were rife, even after beng shown the latest in mini-cams (size and weight of a Biro, with a lead to a digital recorder about the size of a Walkman) not ideal, picture quality wise but entirely adequate for a couple of minutes footage. But no, The Rules, probably written in the 1960s, were dusted off and they said that any cockpit mounted cameras had to be trialled by Boscombe.

In short, the RAF made it so difficult, while the FAA and AAC made it so easy that the producer had a very difficult time in maintaining a fair tri-Service balance. The 20 or so folk who worked on that series will now be senior camera/sound men, assistant producers or a producers in their own right. They will remember the weekly grief and like as not, will never want to repeat it.

To the layman, the RAF has everything it needs, in spades, to make an exciting TV show. The PR org at MoD kills it stone dead. Splinter in your finger TV ad anyone?

Otherwise Cumbrian, good idea.

[Phil_R]

Of course it may come down to individuals, but in my (very recent) experience, the RAF are certainly cable of being more cooperative to film and TV people than I could possibly have imagined.

Breaking my own "don't post on pprune" rule,

Phil

[Butty]

Hasn't "Jet Set" just been repeated? Isn't there a rumour about a new series following first tourists? :rolleyes:

[Talking Radalt]

Of course it may come down to individuals, but in my (very recent) experience, the RAF are certainly cable of being more cooperative to film and TV people than I could possibly have imagined.

Funny you should say that. I heard a well known Sunday-night motoring magazine show with a tall sarcastic Yorkshireman, a short bloke who technically should be dead right now and a foppish Army officer-type are always absolutely gagging for aircraft.
But no, apparently the show has "had their fare share recently" (I think they mean Lotus vs Apache FOUR years ago and Range Rover vs Chally II) and besides, it only appeals to 18-35 year old heterosexual blokes apparently (totally wrong assumption by MOD, well done chaps) and we don't want any more of them through the AFCO doors :rolleyes:

[Fatjoff]

Remember the very interesting (and sometimes toe-curlingly cringing) series on an RAF warship (Brazen?) made about three years ago.





RAF Brazen?

Oops. Standby for incoming!

[Cumbrian Fell]

RAF Brazen...yes, that little West Country establishment, now 'rationalised'. You will note that I have corrected my post, and attributing it to the correct Service.
Gainesy. Thanks for your reply and what depressing reading it makes. Years ago when serving as a young Adjutant in the Marches, an old dear in the village asked to visit the NAAFI shop to buy some NAAFI tea. OC Sy was appoplectic: 'Of course not...could be PIRA...setting a dangerous precedent...what if she falls over...etc etc.' Yes, on occasions it is necessary to be suspicious and cautious (especially wrt flight safety) but, as demonstrated in your post, we are often our own worst enemy.
Oh, and by the way, I took a packet of tea around to this old lady who snatched it out of my hands, didn't say thanks, and was an old ungrateful cow who smelt of wee. OC Sy was probably right to deny her acess to the NAAFI shop!

[RETDPI]

I like that tea them monkeys used to drink.