Threads closing suspiciously 2?

[Tigs2]

Rob
I am concerned by your statement below, were you in a bad mood this morning?

Aviation forums
Server totally overloaded
Aviation threads stayed - our choice. PPRuNe's worth exactly what you'd paid for it. We don't do PM's we have 130,000+ registered users to look after while flying the line. Secondary duties you see.
Don't like it? Vote hard with your feet. The service will improve for the rest. We choose to run an aviation forum for military folk. It's your choice whether you come or not. It's our choice what apears because we are paying for it not you. It really is that simple.
Regards
Rob
__________________
Regards from the Towers


Rob. This site now has an intrinsic value. That is clear from the number of banner adverts that appear, and at around £2000 for 3 months per advert, there is a calculatable value to the site. This site has that value, and the interest of advertisers because it has 130000 users.

The users here spend their time also, sometimes writing lengthy submissions which are censored or erased without warning/comment when they do not appear to be transgressing the site rules. Your post displays a complete lack of customer care. You guys that started this know the site has a value and that is because of the client base, i.e we the users. Your post smacks of the fact that you dont give a s**t. May i suggest that if the site takes up so much of your time, and not only do you not get paid for it, but you yourself are paying for the privilage then the best business solution would be for you to stop.

This site has grown to be the best, most used aviation forum in the world. It is generally frequented by intelligent people who have helped (by their contributions) make PPRuNE the success that it is. If the subject matter was not as interesting and as varied as it is, the site would not be successful.

You guys came up with the original idea, which was great, but the success of the site i.e the attraction for commercial advertisers is the fact it has an audience of 130000 people (thats us the contributors) interested in aviation, a captive audience.

For you to suggest that people clear off if they dont like it smacks of a complete lack of understanding of the relationship between the site, the advertisers and the users. The users that have made your site the success that it is deserve more from you than the rantings of a grumpy old man at 7am. Discussions on Somalia, Iran/Israel, Iraq deserve a lot more server time than 'The finish the sentance off thread'!

If you're suffering from lack of server space, try asking your members, if you are not running a commercial venture, it is amazing who has what out there. I have a very big server, want some?

Guess this will be on for less than an hour before it is erased/locked.

[Roghead]

Great sentiments Tigs2. "Sanitisation of Mil Forums" on the same subject started at 1056 today and so far still alive. Suggest we keep all comments on the one thread to maximise our opinions (matters not which) as I suspect asking Rob to combine the threads may be a bridge too far.:hmm:

Oops! Spoke too soon. "Sanitisation" thread closed. Why's that?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Tigs,

You've made a series of assumptions in the above post. They may well appear logical to you. They appeared logical to the guys in 2001 who claimed our database of addresses had a base value of several million.
We weren't interested then and we aren't interested now.

You guys aren't customers. Don't kid yourself. You are users.

We don't give a stuff regarding advertisers. No sales people - none. We got suckered into that sales thing a couple of years ago and ended up with the site being run to pay the sales people. I've very glad to say we fired them a year ago. Advertisers now come to us under our terms. No pay by the click. No forum targeting. No one on commission. We set a price - they pay it or the ad doesn't appear. Just in case you can't read between the lines we don't like ads - they are a pain in the arse. Get the site back down to 10,000 users and we can do without ads like we used to.

We do our own thing and as the Australians and Jetblasters have discovered we have no qualms simply shutting down a forum until folks get the point.

Military Aviation threads stay. Charity threads go. The political testiculation goes. We put our time and money into running a set of aviation forums for the past ten years. We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully. We run the site for our pleasure not yours. You want to play political strategist or polemicist go elsewhere.

That is our choice and not yours. Please understand this. We don't care, we simply don't care if you use the site or not. As I said at the outset your assumptions are wrong. This isn't a commercial site, we've never borrowed a penny to fund it. We have no need to 'stroke' customers and advertisers because both come to us.

And so to those assumptions again Tigs - by everything you understand regarding commercial reality and customer service this site should soon be a wasteland. However, a search on my posts will find a 6 year history of taking the cyberbaseball bat to forums. The tumbleweed has still not appeared despite such long term lack of respect by Danny and I. It is extremely annoying but it is our site, it is private and while we thoroughly enjoy the pissed off going on the blanket with protest posts and threads there is only one thing to remember - the house always wins.

Sum up: Charity threads get chopped, non service threads go, political science wankfests for apprentice leader writers go. It's a huge internet out there and loads of other places are desperate for non aviation stuff.

Regards again,
Rob

[Radar Muppet]

...Rob, if that is the attitude in PPRuNe Towers I'll walk. Please cancel registration.

Bye

Nice job Tigs 2 (where's my refund!!)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well there is always this (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24) forum for RAF (and I believe they don't mind others) flying chat.

Feed the goat.;)

[Tourist]

Rob.

Quality post. Love it!

Are you ex mil?
I bet you give a spectacular b@llocking.

[cooheed]

Rob.

Quality post. Love it!

Are you ex mil?
I bet you give a spectacular b@llocking.

I agree, it's their train set at the end of the day :D

[glum]

Ouch! That's us told! It would have been nice to let us know in a polite manner beforehand, rather than rip the rug out without warning, but I guess you don't have to be polite if you don't give a toss.

Hey ho. Best take ourselves elsewhere...:{

[osbo]

Regular visitors will have noted that the mil forum often has as many or (on many occasions) more visitors than the top-level R&N forum - perhaps the "culling" should take place elsewhere! If indeed it is really necessary.

The hardline attitude obviously doesn't settle well with seasoned mil ppruners - perhaps it's time for another forum on the huge WWW, possibly incorporating a civvy section?

Osbo (civvy, BTW)

[Without Care]

'PPrune Tower, continuing en-route good day...Air Force, roll e-goat go'

[SamCaine]

I may be missing something, but has the Jaguar finale thread gone????

Why?????

someone remove the ? from this keyboard please

[Tigs2]

Rob
Well you have certainly stepped off the fence.
You guys aren't customers. Don't kid yourself. You are users.

I think i used the term users in my post. I commented on the lack of customer care concerning your comments about us 'Users'. If advertisers are such a pain in the a**e i am sure they will be delighted to know your feelings for the money they chip in every month, and if they are such a distraction do with them what you do with us and just close them down, don't have them, it all sounds like too much stress. I am not on the political bandwaggon, and neither are the others on the Mil forum who want to discuss Somalia, Iran etc etc. These subjects affect Mil Aviators, there are US Aircraft involved in Somalia as we speak.
I hope you are more 'User' focused when you fly your 737, or are they fee paying customers, does that make a difference? A bit like your 'Users' who pay to subscribe maybe? I suggest if you dont wish your 'Users' to be rude on these forums, you practise what you preach.

[scroggs]

Sam, if you're talking about the 'Celebration of the Jaguar Retirement' thread, it was deleted by the thread's originator - a facility which is available to all users for any threads they may start.

While I've not been involved in any of the recent housekeeping issues in Mil Aircrew, regular users will be aware of the increasing incidence of 'Server too Busy' messages recently. This is a function of the increasing number of users - not necessarily registered ones - and the extra demands of the latest board software and some of the add-on tools that have been installed for your convenience. STB messages are not, despite the suspicions of some, an editorial tool!

Pprune runs on a couple of very flash - and expensive - servers, but even they are becoming overwhelmed by the load Pprune places on them. One way of reducing that load is to slim down the archives, much of which is of no particular value. I understand that there may well be some reductions to the number of forums, though it's unlikely that Mil Aircrew is at any risk!
There is the option of acquiring more or larger servers, but that costs serious dosh - and means that we would be chasing ever-greater user numbers and the advertising to pay for them. As none of us is without a life outside Pprune, that's not an attractive option. So the expansion of Pprune's user-base may well be at an end...

Rob may be a bit direct for the tastes of some of you, but you must realise and accept that you are here as the guests of Rob and Danny. Those of you who have purchased Personal Titles make a valuable and valued contribution to Pprune's running costs, but I'm afraid that does not imply any significant say into how the place is run - though, and this may surprise you, we do listen and take note of well-thought-through criticism whenever it appears on the site. Of course, those of you who pay nothing towards the running costs of the site can have no complaint when things are done here with which you disagree.

Scroggs

[Tigs2]

Scroggs
would it help alleviate some of the server issues if the site could only be perused by registered users, rather than currently, capacity being taken up by unregistered users. Some other web forums use this system.

[Chris Kebab]

...and suggest that those users are all indeed "military aircrew".

[Green Meat]

Well said guys. As someone who runs several sites, I am wholeheartedly in agreement that if you pay the bill, you get to decide what goes on there!

Sod e-goat, I'm staying here!

(and one day I'll open my wallet to pay for a personal title :ok: )

[Lyneham Lad]

...and suggest that those users are all indeed "military aircrew".

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Chris - kindly note the information at the head of this forum.

On the general subject of Pprune and the people who run it for their own pleasure/purpose, well if they want to take their ball home and tell users to bu&&er off elsewhere, so be it. Can't complain at that really, but...........:{

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Scroggs,
Thanks for the balanced and very polite response to this thorny issue. I fully agree with you when you say trimming archives etc will free up server space but what we have seen lately is the unannounced closing of some of the liveliest threads that are voicing opinions that are completely in place within this aircrew forum.

I notice there are still 3 pages on the Mil Aircrew forum so maybe some of the old stuff should be removed/culled before the newer stuff which would help alleviate the suspicions that it's plain old censorship at work here........just my humble thoughts.

[cargosales]

Tigs,
You've made a series of assumptions in the above post. They may well appear logical to you. They appeared logical to the guys in 2001 who claimed our database of addresses had a base value of several million.
We weren't interested then and we aren't interested now.
You guys aren't customers. Don't kid yourself. You are users.
We don't give a stuff regarding advertisers. No sales people - none. We got suckered into that sales thing a couple of years ago and ended up with the site being run to pay the sales people. I've very glad to say we fired them a year ago. Advertisers now come to us under our terms. No pay by the click. No forum targeting. No one on commission. We set a price - they pay it or the ad doesn't appear. Just in case you can't read between the lines we don't like ads - they are a pain in the arse. Get the site back down to 10,000 users and we can do without ads like we used to.
We do our own thing and as the Australians and Jetblasters have discovered we have no qualms simply shutting down a forum until folks get the point.
Military Aviation threads stay. Charity threads go. The political testiculation goes. We put our time and money into running a set of aviation forums for the past ten years. We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully. We run the site for our pleasure not yours. You want to play political strategist or polemicist go elsewhere.
That is our choice and not yours. Please understand this. We don't care, we simply don't care if you use the site or not. As I said at the outset your assumptions are wrong. This isn't a commercial site, we've never borrowed a penny to fund it. We have no need to 'stroke' customers and advertisers because both come to us.
And so to those assumptions again Tigs - by everything you understand regarding commercial reality and customer service this site should soon be a wasteland. However, a search on my posts will find a 6 year history of taking the cyberbaseball bat to forums. The tumbleweed has still not appeared despite such long term lack of respect by Danny and I. It is extremely annoying but it is our site, it is private and while we thoroughly enjoy the pissed off going on the blanket with protest posts and threads there is only one thing to remember - the house always wins.
Sum up: Charity threads get chopped, non service threads go, political science wankfests for apprentice leader writers go. It's a huge internet out there and loads of other places are desperate for non aviation stuff.
Regards again,
Rob
Rob,
What a truly amazing post. A fantastic insight into your regard for advertisers, your 'users' and the whole aviation community. (Which in case you hadn't realised, goes far, far beyond a few 'Professional pilots', who are never happier than whinging about their awful T & C's). Actually, for 'regard', please read 'stupendous contempt'.
I have saved this page as an example of exactly how a media owner should NOT treat their audience and, if you are unlucky, we will use it in our next issue, as an example of the contempt shown by some media owners towards their readers and advertisers.
For what it's worth, I will add that Pprune didn't have either the courtesy or decency to even acknowledge, let alone reply to my memo /application to assist with advertising sales (a subject I am MORE then familiar with) on a basis which wouldn't have left you open to anything. As it was, it sounds like your ego got the better of you and you got taken for a ride (you mug) .
Frankly mate, your attitude sucks. You wish to play god with threads, which is your perogative, but you have played the 'innocent' card once too often.
'We do not care what you think': Pretty much sums it up I'm afraid.
I DO care what my readers and advertisers think and that is what separates us.
Adios.
CS

[brickhistory]

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.



If only...................................

[Tigs2]

CS
nice one!

30 minutes and Cooouuunting!

(to be read in a really bad James Bondish movie Russian accent)

29 minutes and Cooouuunting!

[nigegilb]

Gobsmacked...
Just want to thank all the contributors to the Herc thread. Over 100,000 hits. At its peak when I was talking to journos, they already knew the story cos they had read it here first. An amazingly useful tool, carefully moderated by the likes of Scroggs. When I met AOC 2Gp, he had pages of the thread copied and he quoted me back from what I had written here. Rob, I suggest you sleep on it and see how you feel tomorrow.
Cheers,
Nige G

[Roghead]

Rob,
For the sake of all concerned I hope your Ill considered response to our reasoned requests does not result in a loss of revenue to Prune. Somehow your attitude reminds me of Day and Wratten.........they thought they owned the train set as well, and whilst you may, the bad taste remains in the throat.
Scroggs,
Give the boy some lessons.
:*

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

18 minutes and coooounting :E

[cargosales]

18 minutes and coooounting :E

Oh thanks, It's nice to see the countdown to being banned so publicly highlighted :O

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Sorry would of posted a bit earlier but I was busy reading all the ad's, I wonder if there is much money coming in from them:O

[Tigs2]

17 Minutes and cooouunting!
Now if PPRuNE still had the facility to do polls (that was really good that was!) we could have a poll on should CS stay:ok: :ok: :ok:
CS think you could get an overwhelming yes actually.
16 minu........................................


ABIW
There definitly is, but no one gives a s**t! maybe if they dont want it, they could give it to us, no me!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Tigs you always were a greedy barsteward, wot about 60/40?

[cargosales]

[QUOTE=Tigs2;3061448]17 Minutes and cooouunting!
Now if PPRuNE still had the facility to do polls (that was really good that was!) we could have a poll on should CS stay:ok: :ok: :ok:
CS think you could get an overwhelming yes actually.
16 minu........................................
QUOTE]

Depends if you factor in that I gave Danny the correct home address for one N. Robertson, at which he was subsequently arrested (for those of you with long memories)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Short memory, please embelish your last post:E

[Tigs2]

Need to include CS mate so 30/30/30 and 10% to the 'global campaign for Free Speech':}
Amazing update. I just see i have now become a Probationary PPRuNEr dating back at least a year, cant be bothered to go back further. I Knew i shouldnt have mentioned Free Speech:oh: :oh:

[TheInquisitor]

it's unlikely that Mil Aircrew is at any risk!

Beg to differ, Scroggs me old! If Rob continues to display such breathtaking arrogance as seen here, I suspect there will be ALOT of Mil PPRuNers taking their online interests elsewhere - time for a dedicated "MilPRuNe" site anyone?

International politics is a subject that is inextricably intertwined with what we do in the Military, hence it will always end up being discussed here - something I'm geniunely surprised that Rob does not recognise.

I appreciate fully the issues you guys have with server capacity, and we ALL appreciate the unpaid time you guys put into running this site, but the rather childish "Let Them Eat Cake" rant from a senior moderator (who wouldn't hesitate to remove another member's post for displaying similar attitudes) doesn't serve anybody's purposes. Yes, it IS your train set - but taking it home in a huff so no-one else can play is not the kind of attitude one would expect from an 'aviation professional'.

Rob, as Nige has already said, I strongly suggest you sleep on it and consider carefully what you have said here.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Of course the laughable thing about this whole sorry debate is that this site is named after a fictional military pilot.
This being the case shouldn't the civvies be jumping through hoops to keep us service types happy?:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

I fully support the view of the owners and providers of the website. I have also personally fallen foul of the moderator and had stuff deleted in toto without so much as a "how'syerfather" from time to time, but hey, it's not the end of the world, just a bend in the ego here and there.
The site was originally started as a bulletin board by DF as a hobby, about twelve years ago, using only his PC, IIRC. Each day, the "post" was sent to members as a collective email message, there were only about sixty or seventy of us when I first joined in 1995.
There were no thread groupings, it was all lumped in together. It grew like Topsy and things went from strength to strength, taking up a huge amount of Danny's time. Due to his other "day job" commitments, we didn't always get our daily fix of emails (Danny was down route).
Danny eventually came to us cap in hand and asked for voluntary contributions to go towards buying a proper server and software for a proper website front end; many of us did so (I couldn't read all the rapidly growing number of emails anyway) and I must have been fairly close to the front of the queue. Members were asked to become moderators around this time. I was asked twice to moderate one particular forum, but each time I have politely declined; I didn't want the responsibility. I fully support those that DO moderate; it's their show.
In those days Danny occasionally posted to ask us to review our threads to cut down on site clutter. As this was the way I was brought up, I still do delete my old threads on occasions when I think they have served their purpose for whatever reason, rather than letting them lie on the server as excess baggage. I have been taken to task on this a couple of times by members who joined later and were not aware of the history of the website, but that's just the way things are. I received a pm from someone who obviously saw a large number of replies to a thread as a personal "badge of honour" as he was horrified that I could delete my own thread with such a large number of replies. I come here to learn a little (and hopefully give a little where I can), to exchange ideas, to entertain and to enjoy.
Despite having paid a little cash, I'm only here at the leave and license of the owner of the site. If I overstep the mark, I expect to take the rap. If Danny or one of his moderators decides to pull the plug on something I begin, so be it, I'm playing fotball in their garden. If I break a window, I'm out. No questions, no backchat - Endex.
Those who haven't even paid to go through the gate and yet expect reserved space for their personal soapbox can expect no sympathy.
Do bear in mind that this is now certainly one of, if not THE the premier aviation website in the world. If an individual doesn't wish to be a part of it, it's a free world to set up an alternative website, so "Bye"!

[scroggs]

Scroggs,
Thanks for the balanced and very polite response to this thorny issue. I fully agree with you when you say trimming archives etc will free up server space but what we have seen lately is the unannounced closing of some of the liveliest threads that are voicing opinions that are completely in place within this aircrew forum.
I notice there are still 3 pages on the Mil Aircrew forum so maybe some of the old stuff should be removed/culled before the newer stuff which would help alleviate the suspicions that it's plain old censorship at work here........just my humble thoughts.

I've not been following the threads you refer to, but it's been noticeable that this forum has rather too often been straying from its remit of Military Aviation. Discussions of non-aviation topics will generally not be appropriate here, however interesting they may be - even if they are of direct military relevance. Many topics in here are no such thing, and are thus prime targets for pruning (sorry!).

would it help alleviate some of the server issues if the site could only be perused by registered users, rather than currently, capacity being taken up by unregistered users. Some other web forums use this system.

I'm not sure how much load the non-registered users cause to the system, but I think they rarely make up more than a third of the total. I'm pretty sure they can't use any of the stuff that loads the server severely - search and so on. In any case, if the place was only readable by registered users (and I'm not sure that's possible), we'd never get any new blood in.

Scroggs

[ratty1]

I've not been following the threads you refer to, but it's been noticeable that this forum has rather too often been straying from its remit of Military Aviation.



Would that include the threads such as the Netjets and British Airways thread currently on the Military Forum?

[Roghead]

Scroggs, it seems that you're joining your co-mod Rob and losing the plot.
we'd never get any new blood in.
I thought that that was what Rob was advocating.

Get the site back down to 10,000 users
.
As for your interpretation as to what is an acceptable mil aviation topic you might just as well put a warning at the top of the page saying that all topics are subject to "our" approval and censorship. This, of course, is your perogative and indeed is how the system works, but please don't try to justify why some subject matter is OK , other is not. It comes over as sanctomonious claptrap.
It's all a shame... it's been fun, but I guess you've just grown too big.:sad:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Cargo sales and the other err, commercially minded experts.

We've run the site in our way for over 10 years now. First time you lot on Mil have been publicly coshed but it's happened many times over the years as those who inhabit other parts of the site will confirm.

It is our choice what appears on any given part of the site. We will be condemed to hell for cocking it up but it is our choice.

This is insane, it is outrageous and it is arrogant. Obviously the site will collapse in on itself with such arrant, wilful behaviour. We don't moderate, we close and delete. We don't soften the blow with 'love you long time' notes. We simply wade in. Editors not moderators.

For the last few weeks we've had a little coterie of pundits who had their arses kicked over on Jetblast since last February playing games here. The once in a blue moon non mil political thread got turned into having 2 or 3 running at any one time. A few other potherbs who love the sound of their own keyboards think it's good sport as well.

Some of you, apparently with goldfish memories, think this is SOP. It ain't - the search engine and archive.org is your friend and you can check for yourselves. The constant charity appeals are binned, blocked or barred as are the non mil aviation threads. Especially the non mil diatribes.

Aviation website, mil aviation forum. Does what it say on the tin. Danny and I are a disrespectful, rude pair of tossers and because of that the site is a deserted wasteland. As of this week the 12th busiest bulletin board in the world. 49,000 unique users in a single day and we say bollocks to the experts and the professionals who have and still do tell us how a website should be run. We run the site with chewing gum and string from a series of hotel rooms around the world. No offices. No company cars. No suits. We don't play kissy kissy with the users and we don't have any truck with so called professionals in the industry.

So let's say it loud and proud. If you are doing a charity run fantastic but this is an aviation forum. If you want to discuss middle eastern power politics from a herring's point of view go elsewhere. If you fancy yourself as a political satirist regarding the governments warm and helpful interest in the armed services fill your boots.

Here's a final clue. Aeroplanes and the politics of aeroplanes good. We like that we do.

Rob

[Whirlygig]

Danny and I are a disrespectful, rude pair of tossers

I've met Danny a couple of times and I wouldn't have described him in those terms! :} But perhaps, you know him better! :)

However, it's true that some fora have been closed over the years; Question Time and Agony Aunt to name two. We get over it and it's no big deal in the end.

Rob, most of us here are prepared to abide by any house rules but, like unruly schoolboys, we need to have those rules clarified otherwise we cannot learn.

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Interesting to note that almost without exception, the complainers here haven't been willing to put their hand in their pockets....
:rolleyes:

[eagle 86]

Whole heartedly agree with the owner's right to run the forum as they see fit - to those that object - "get a life" - surely PPRuNe is not the major focus of your world - if it is then you are a very sad person!
GAGS
E86

[Tigs2]

ShyTorque
The fact that some people choose not to have a personal title does not make them a less valuable contributer to this site. Some of those that contribute the most thought provoking issues (and sometimes complain) do not have a personal title, but without their input the Mil forum wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable.

[Whirlygig]

Surely it's more a matter of recognising the service that Pprune provides? A service for which I am more than happy to pay.

The Mil forum has been largely unmoderated for some time; all you have to do is get used to the regime that some of us, who DO frequent other fora on Pprune, got used to a long while back!

There is more to Pprune than just the Mil Forum!

Now, if Rotorheads was to disappear .....

Cheers

Whirls

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I think the problem started with our reaction to our wonderful bloody Government. Some of our comments could have been construed as Civil Insurrection or, in some eyes, treason. Commerce needs protection and it's his train set! All in all, the World, including that enlightened element named aviation, is the better for this freedom of speech.

If the Gestapo make a hit; it's on the Site Owner, not us. Worth a thought?

[West Coast]

Rob
While you gloat over the numbers and slap each other on the back, remember just how you got to that point. The user comment is a load of bs and is disrespectful to those who frequent the site. Minus us visiting, your stock goes down.

A little acknowledgment of that would be refreshing. Rather I imagine I'll be banned as its easier.

[scroggs]

Scroggs, it seems that you're joining your co-mod Rob and losing the plot.

New blood is not the same as more blood! There is a constant turnover of Ppruners; only a hardy few are in it for the long haul. If the board was restricted to registered users only, there would be a net loss of users. Actually, that's an idea...!

I'm sure that even the less aware amongst you can see that limits must be placed on the coverage remit of each forum, otherwise they lose their focus - which is far more likely to lose us readership than by tightly controlling the subject matter. Yes, it's true that e-Goat, ARRSE and Rum Ration are better places to discuss the minutiae of non-aviation Service life, and that's as it should be. The forums of the BBC, Private Eye and others are the appropriate places to discuss general politics and world affairs. Pprune is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock. This isn't an all-things-to-all-people supermarket-stylee talk shop. It's a niche outlet, a specialist forum. Not so specialist, mind, that we pander to the aircrew-only extremists, but specialist enough to have become the forum of choice for serious - and not-so-serious - discussion of military aviation. However, to remain so we must control the noise to signal ratio, and this forum's has been getting out of hand. Inevitably, some will be dischuffed by the re-focussing exercise, and Rob's irrascible style will piss off a few - but it'll amuse more than it upsets!

Hey ho; another teacup tornado in Pprune-land. I'm off to spend all those millions I get from my share of the Pprune advertising bonanza.

Scroggs

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Scroggs
Thanks for the reply; given the size of the current PRRuNe readership, I can live with the lack of PM to tell me my thread (US Airstrikes in Somalia) was closed - although I am still at a loss to understand why.
My particular beef with this individual closure is that this is a subject that directly affects mil aircrew - US, UK and French in the main. We (the RAF) have people deployed all over the CENTCOM AOR, which includes Iraq, Afghanistan and the Horn of Africa. We have deployed in the past, and continue to deploy a small number of personnel to the HOA. (A few years ago, the RAF were involved in air ops based in Kenya, for example). Ergo, the BBC news report that I posted a link to, is of direct relevance to many of us and of professional interest to many more.
I've been here about 5 years (this is my second PPruNe username) and my post rate could hardly be called prolific. However, I would like to think that occasionally I have something relevant and/or interesting to offer. If that's to be more limited because I haven't bought a personal title, so be it. I'm not going to throw my teddies out of the pram.
However, like it or not, PPRuNe Mil Aircrew has become a victim of its own success. Due to the state of affairs that has existed in the upper echelons of the Services for some time, combined with Government-directed swinging cuts and commitments that continue to extend us beyond our means, this forum has for many become the only way we can get our voices heard - even if only amongst our PPRuNe peer group. Discussions on subjects such as JPA are important to us - the system directly affects how we operate, whether deployed or at home. Aircrew or not, all of us in the RAF are in the business of generating air power and getting those aircraft to the target/on station/down route as applicable - hence various threads' applicability to this forum.
Just my 2p worth; I'm staying with PPRuNe but I was surprised at the 'we don't care what you think' attitude displayed in the other thread.
Cheers
SBG

[ShyTorque]

ShyTorque
The fact that some people choose not to have a personal title does not make them a less valuable contributer to this site. Some of those that contribute the most thought provoking issues (and sometimes complain) do not have a personal title, but without their input the Mil forum wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable.

Tigs, Let them get their hands in their pockets. If someone chooses to go onto a private playing field without paying, why should they complain the loudest if the owner decides he needs to mow the grass? Good footballers or not.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Pprune is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock.
Scroggs

Scroggs

I've no issue over how you guys run the site. It's your ball and you'll let who you want play and no-one else.

But...
Surely JPA and housing amount to T&Cs for us military guys? Do the BA guys and such not discuss T&Cs on their forums?

Saddam's hanging may be "World Politics" on other forums, but some of the people on this site helped depose him and continue to help re-build his country.

I've been a member under under one moniker or other since about 2000 and PPruNe has changed a little but not beyond all recognition. These days there are more wannabes and more "non-aviators". Though I'm not anti-blunty, I do believe a way to regain aviation focus and also reduce load on the server would be to either close the forum to non-aviators (who are well served by E-Goat et al) or make it a private forum (such as the airline specific forums). It may not be popular, but as you and your colleagues have said, so what, and the ones that stay will restore and maintain the purity of the site.

Like sweary telly, if you don't like it, there's an off switch. If you don't like the way PPruNe is run, go elsewhwere. If you like it and believe it's important, think of constructive ways that we, the users, can help the site survive and improve. Not just have a bitch-fight over it (and yes, I'm aware that some comments from PPruNe Towers could be seen as inflammatory, but like I said it's their ball and they choose the rules).

Frankly, I think PPruNe's great and a valuable community for us aviators. long may it go on.

[Safeware]

scroggs, Rob et al,
I don't mind rules, I don't mind principles, I don't mind that it's not my train set, so I'm not about to go off in the huff but how about some consistency then?
Pprune is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock.
If these are the rules the mods want to apply, then fine, lock those threads, or as happens in other situations, move them to a more appropriate place - Jet Blast for Saddam and houses, T&C for JPA. And get rid of some of the noise like "Over familiarization". Like Whirls said about schoolboys, if you go to the effort of closing a thread, why not take a couple of extra seconds to post a message saying why. The hint will be taken, communication being a 2-way thing, and you will even get the last word :)

sw

[GPMG]

We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully.


Thats an amazing point to make to people that write on these forums. Did you go to the Gerald Ratner school of communication?

You really have lost touch with how the military mind works.
Do you think that by throwing your weight around you'll get what you want? You'll just get twice the reaction back, told where to go and people will walk.

I come to these forums because it is one of the few military forums where you can have intelligent and considered opinion that isn't dotted with racism, 'in my time' quotes and small minded ignorance, I also have a strong interest in Mil aviation having been involved with it during my forces career. Tis a shame that it seems to be lorded over by a moderator whose attitude to the posters replicates John Prescotts attitude to voters.

[Postman Plod]

Cant believe I'm replying to this thread... but.... As an admin on another site, I just can't believe whats been said!

Yes, your train set, no problem with that. You make the rules, you do what you like. However Mil Aircrew has been left alone for years to run unmoderated, and its been successful. Its one of the consistently busiest forums on PPRuNe. You say its a niche - I'd argue that. Thats what you've made it. (Well, actually you've set it up and hosted it, the users have made it, but I'm trying to butter you up in this paragraph... :E )

Now you change the rules without notice, and get shirty at the regulars who are suddenly seeing their new / old threads being pulled for spurious reasons? Additionally, threads are being pulled inconsistently. There is some dross and non-aviation related threads on the forum thats still there - applying the reasons you've given, why haven't you pulled those? Or are you just pulling threads you dont like? After YEARS of consistency in posting and (non) moderation, all relevant, a little banter, you've gone from self moderation, no-notice ruthless moderation. I think the users have a right to question whats going on, and I dont know why you are so surprised they are! You dont need to answer it, but there is dissatisfaction with this sudden and no-notice change.

Had you given the users a week or twos warning that you were about to impose pruning and new rules on posting, you would have given users the opportunity to HELP you, and given a grace period to change posting styles, and explore other options. How much time does this take? A couple of minutes to inform the whole forum via a sticky post. Users would have told you what threads were pointless and could be pulled. You would have got them involved in the process.

You know, if you're that fed up with users, and forum admin, and stuff like that, you could just close the whole forum for 6 months.

Whatever - I'm not going anywhere, I dont post much anyway. Maybe I'm the sort of person you want rid of. :suspect:

[ProfessionalStudent]

Would the over-burdening of the server be aided by people logging out and staying logged out until they want to post or view a Personal Profile etc?

I know nothing about this kind of thing, but there always seem to be lots of people logged in all the time...

And I don't suppose "tabbed" browsers help, where you are always "looking" at a site, even though it's not shown on your screen at that time.

If it would help, it could be worth a sticky for a while...

Logging out now, just in case...

[shack]

Having been a member for some ten years or more, I think my original number was 2000+, I suggested about 3 years ago to "Admin" (who never answered) that it was easy at times of high useage to restrict access to members only, many sites actually do this quite successfully--no registration=no access.

Below are the current figures, 11/10/07 1135GMT
Currently Active Users
Showing threads 1 to 25 of 234 249 (67 members & 182
guests)

If only registered members were logged on I think that makes about a 60% reduction in server load.

Question Was PPRuNe Towers ever in the Service?, if not could explain a lack of understanding of the Service mind

[scroggs]

However Mil Aircrew has been left alone for years to run unmoderated
No it hasn't. It just hasn't had a dedicated moderator. As for consistency in moderation, it's an unfortunate fact that all the mods (and there are 60+ on Pprune, though not so many that have mod powers in here) are human and not clones, so they will have different interpretations of the policies and rules we work under. Also, it's probably true that we've taken our eyes off this particular ball recently, and getting it back in line is therefore that bit more painful. The rules haven't changed, but their enforcement may have done.

As for JPA being a T&Cs issue, so it is. However, there is no Mil T&E forum here and it's highly unlikely there ever will be one - again, e-Goat etc are the best places for that kind of discussion. The fact that they exist make it a waste of time and effort to create Private Forums for the RAF, RN, Army, USAF, FAF etc, etc. The reason most airlines don'y have private forums here is because they have their own elsewhere. It's invidious to compare it to the civilian T&E forum, which is primarily about pay and jobs, not about admin support or housing issues.

The 'Airstrikes in Somalia' thread was typical of what Rob is trying to excise from this forum. While it may have been intended as a discussion about the tactics and practicalities of air power in that situation, by post 2 it had become a political discussion of US foreign policy - nothing whatsoever to do with aviation. The fact that some of you were involved in operations tro depose Saddam does not make his death an appropriate subject for discussion here - any more than the fact that I'm a Virgin pilot who would like a Ferrari (but can't afford one!) makes Ferraris an appropriate topic in the Virgin forum.


Scroggs

[scroggs]

.
Below are the current figures, 11/10/07 1135GMT
Currently Active Users
Showing threads 1 to 25 of 234 249 (67 members & 182
guests)
If only registered members were logged on I think that makes about a 60% reduction in server load.

The vast majority of these 'guests' are likely to be crawler bots from search engines and spam generators, rather than individuals who are actively browsing the forums.

Scroggs

[nigegilb]

I can't honestly believe that you think JPA should not be discussed here. It had a direct effect on aviation. You had guys deployed in the sand not being paid and all the anguish with having serious domestic issues to deal with from thousand of miles away. Not many things affect your mind when you commit to aviation but that must have run some people very close. It affected guys on resettlement, and was a real concern for many weeks. I really think you have lost your way if you are banning such things now. It even made the press and Parliament. Or is that the real problem here?

[scroggs]

No Nige, it has no direct effect on aviation. It may have an indirect effect by directly affecting aviators (among others) who are employed by HMG, but it is not an aviation topic. Nor was it being discussed from that angle; it was simply a group moan about the difficulties of using the system. E-Goat is the place for that - and more likely to reach those Admin wallahs who have responsibility for such trash. Getting mentions in the Press and Parliament does not motivate Pprune and its staff. If it floats the boats of others, they can fill their boots.

Scroggs

[allan907]

and Rob's irrascible style will piss off a few - but it'll amuse more than it upsets!

Unfortunately that seems to be the case and, as a result, just goes to reinforce the ultra-chav attitude of those in charge (funny that we haven't had any word from the great Danny).

DON'T BE AMUSED - BE BLOODY ANNOYED!

I post this in trepidation as I had an email exchange with Rob over this precise subject following banning after the use of a non-PC phrase on another forum. My reward for trying to conduct an intelligent argument was to be declared a "non person" - that is, my posts appeared on my computer but no-one else could see them. Rob's attitude managed to lose the site some valuable advertising. Fair enough. He doesn't want it. So he didn't get it. One of the UK flying mags got it instead.

Danny - I believe that you and Rob are making a huge mistake and this may be the first indication (along with all those on other forums) that your little empire of influence is about to collapse. You cannot treat your customers (or however you want to describe us) as pieces of trash. Some of us have paid actual money (personal titles etc) and, as such, there is an implicit contract of service. Your silence is deafening - do you support your partner's view?

I suspect that this is another "suicide note". :uhoh:

[scroggs]

funny that we haven't had any word from the great Danny

Danny, like most of us, works for a living. Many of the destinations he visits have little or no reliable internet access. He is also in the throes of moving house. I suspect he has better things to do just now than get involved in this little spat, which will not affect the turning of the Earth one iota.

Scroggs

[G-UNIT]

surely this thread has nothing to do with military aviation and the axe should fall.

[nigegilb]

Scroggs, I didn't post on the JPA thread but I was appalled and amazed at how it came into being. Group whinge? I am not so sure. It really affected some people very badly. Surely those of you who run PPRUNE should take a little pride in what it has achieved?

[ShyTorque]

Allan, I think you are being naive if you think the forum is about to crash. The only thing that will do that is DF pulling the plug. :rolleyes:
Get over it, guys.

[BEagle]

Much of the comments above reflect the most significant difference between the world of Military Aviation and the airline world.

The military world is not just a 'report, fly, go home' world. Were military aviators ever to lose interest in discussing items such as morale, welfare and the like, which includes JPA and housing conditions, for example, that would be tanatamount to ignoring issues which directly reflect the welfare of those who support the primary focus for which military avaition exists.

Read most of the (non-spotter) comments in the non-military forums and most seem very much centred on the individual. "I'm not paid enough"..."I have to work too hard"..."How can I do this, that or the other?". Some who no longer use PPRuNe referred to it recently as a 'moaning copilot's club' - rather an unfair view, but that was their perception, I'm sorry to say.

Leadership, whether of a crew or a company, should consider team, task and individual needs. The balance may vary depending on the scope of the task, but none of those needs are irrelevant.

If the lad who didn't remove the bang seat pin failed to do so because he was so tired due to worrying about his cocked up pay and his kids living in a damp slum, then that most certainly IS of concern to EVERY military aviator.

Moderate as you need, but please respect the fact that the military has a much greater duty of care towards its peoples' welfare and how that affects their performance than does any airline. The military is a team - and there is no 'I' in team!

[Safeware]

Scroggs, just to pick up onAs for consistency in moderation, it's an unfortunate fact that all the mods (and there are 60+ on Pprune, though not so many that have mod powers in here) are human and not clones, so they will have different interpretations of the policies and rules we work under

a) Individual moderators looking at individual forums should be consistent, that's what I was getting at. So, if you are going to shut down a thread on forum x because of its irrelevance, shut down similarly irrelevant threads on the same forum.

b) If the moderators have different interpretations of PPRuNE policies and rules, how can contributors be expected to abide by them? Is it justified to rant when someone asks a reasonable question about those policies and rules?

sw

[Postman Plod]

Why has this come about with no warning, if not to upset the natives? When the natives get upset, why not at least try to give a convincing explanation consistent with the actions? There are better ways to get user buy-in than hacking them off off.

The forum is nothing without its users. I dont understand why you're seemingly going out of your way to alienate them?

PPRuNe will go on, of that I have no doubt. However it wont be the same, and wont be nearly as valuable or interesting a resource.

As shack says, If you have a traffic problem, only allow registered users to view the forums.

[Chugalug2]

I suspect he has better things to do just now than get involved in this little spat, which will not affect the turning of the Earth one iota.
Scroggs

Well we all have better things to do if a thread that we contribute to, because we we see it as relevant to the lives of people in Military Aviation, is binned without warning or comment! What is the quality of this thread that it continues (so far) while others do not? I have posted to the Mull sticky, not because it is about helicopters of which I know little, but because it is a cause celebre of gross injustice by the Air Staff against two of their deceased pilots. Now please don't think that I want that thread unstuck, let alone locked off, Pprune is doing a very worthy thing by leaving it at the top of the forum for new members to discover (as it was with me). I just don't understand what the new house rules are, and as has been said before, we are all big boys and girls (well mostly) and are all capable of understanding what is or is not acceptable, provided we are told what is or is not acceptable. I suspect that Nige might have got close to what is really going down here, but if he is right say so and I, at least, will understand. At the moment I do not!
A perplexed Chug.

[nigegilb]

RAF JPA rollout, 185,000 hits. This is an important service to serving military bods. Where would all that steam have gone? PVR?
Current threads, promotions freeze for the Navy? Of real concern, why don't you just pull it now? Come on be consistent. RAFCARS, pull it! Ashamed to be part of it- Pull it, it does not comply with the new rules does it?

[shack]

The vast majority of these 'guests' are likely to be crawler bots from search engines and spam generators, rather than individuals who are actively browsing the forums.
Scroggs

Are you therefore telling me that they do not take up bandwidth?:confused:

[tonkatechie]

I've just discovered this 'storm in a tea-cup' after a long period on non-ppruning. Whilst I can appreciate the moderator's viewpoint (essentially - 'it's my train set') I think there are two points I'd like to make to add to the mix:
1. Things like JPA are relevant to mil aviation. Don't agree? Then why is there a complete flight safety video about a (jag, I think) pilot being distracted by domestic issues?
2. The moderators can be as strict as they choose (back to the train set thing), even be downright autocratic if needs be, but remember this: manners cost nothing, and as we're all (mostly) adults here, you should address people as you'd like to be addressed. You can be civil to anyone, even if you strongly disagree with their view. Some of the nastier posts here show a deplorable attitude that I feel if they had been delivered in person, would have resulted in someone leaving with a nose bleed!
Long may Pprune continue, even if I can't afford a personal title...

[Roghead]

Well done Beags...you've nailed it again
Much of the comments above reflect the most significant difference between the world of Military Aviation and the airline world.
The military world is not just a 'report, fly, go home' world. Were military aviators ever to lose interest in discussing items such as morale, welfare and the like, which includes JPA and housing conditions, for example, that would be tanatamount to ignoring issues which directly reflect the welfare of those who support the primary focus for which military avaition exists.
Also the other well considered and apposite responses, congratulations. Given 21 years in the RAF, I would have thought you (Scroggs) may have understood a little better. It would seem that PPPrune Towers did not have the benefit of a military background and therefore can be easily dismissed for his lack of understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PPRuNe Towers
We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully.
Thats an amazing point to make to people that write on these forums. Did you go to the Gerald Ratner school of communication?
You really have lost touch with how the military mind works.
.
So, given that statement, I'm "unsubscribing". I would like to take all my constituent parts of Danny's and Rob's train set, but I cannot get at the closed items. Bye.

[scroggs]

Scroggs, I didn't post on the JPA thread but I was appalled and amazed at how it came into being. Group whinge? I am not so sure. It really affected some people very badly. Surely those of you who run PPRUNE should take a little pride in what it has achieved?
It may have achieved all sorts of things, Nige, and I sincerely hope it has - but it should never really have been allowed to digress from the flight safety implications of admin frustrations in the RAF. It became, very quickly, nothing to do with flight safety; simply a moan about JPA itself, and questioning the parentage of those responsible. That really isn't Pprune territory.

BEags I'm delighted that you choose to remind us of the responsibilities of military leadership. I'm sure that, before you retired from the RAF, you exercised those responsibilities diligently and to the best of your considerable ability. However, Pprune has none of those responsibilities and has no obligation or remit to enable those reponsibilities to be exercised here. That some issues have been raised that have gained attention elsewhere is something of a bonus, but doesn't alter the fact that this is an aviation board, not a welfare one.

Shack outside my technical knowledge, but I don't think altering the access arrangements would prevent these bots from appearing as guests.

Why has all this happened now? Because the direction of this forum been an irritant to the owners for some time, and now they've chosen to do something about it - in their own style! The methods may not suit some, but the result will be focus regained in this forum. Personally, I feel that this forum should have its own Moderator (or team) to keep it on track, but that idea has been rejected by you chaps repeatedly in favour of 'self-moderation'. Apparently, in the eyes of the owners, that hasn't worked (and, to some extent, never existed). Maybe it's time to revisit that question.

Scroggs

[Postman Plod]

I guess I would have considered buying a personal title if it wasn't so damn expensive! I'm not a heavy user. I'm sure most other users probably feel the same! £5 maximum, not £45 would be more appropriate surely, and probably bring in more money in the long run as more users sign up!

Are you trying to wind the site down? Has your hobby just got too much? Are you getting heat from external sources? Are you being attacked by bots or spammers? Your actions simply dont seem to be matching your words! Be honest with us here! I'll even say please!

[[email protected]]

Frankly I am amazed and embarrassed by the pettifogging attitude of most of the complainers. A certain arrogance is displayed by those who think PPrune is run by others exclusively for them and any subject they wish to bitch about. We should consider ourselves fortunate that a civilian aviation website chooses to allow a military forum to exist within it - not start moaning everytime we don't like the way they do things. If you want to go to e-goat or A**se then crack on because you will miss out on a lot of reasoned, informed debate that happens here on AVIATION issues. All you will get is the same dripping that sadly mars some of the threads that we have been allowed, despite them not being purely aviation.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Hmmmm,

And at what point was any JPA thread interefered with? Any welfare thread? Any housing thread? Allowances and tax? Mull? Herc and foam? Lean? Overstretch? WBF even?

Try to raise your game folks. You are bleating unconvincingly.

I've been crystal clear regarding what gets the chop. Pontificating post pubescent politicos who'd argue with their own toenails. The Google gob****es and the 'I could have been a policy wonksters'.' What happened once a week has turned into a plague in the last 6 or 7 weeks.

The moment someone starts querying non mil political topics getting the chop is the moment that the herd have started believing such threads are normal for this forum.

That is not the case and thus the big stick all done in public following the celebrated 3 calls system.

Tell 'em what you going to do and get their attention.
Tell 'em what your going to do and twist the knife.
Tell 'em what you told them now the dust and outrage is settling and more folks are switched to listen.

You'll find this repeated with the search engine in many of the forums over the years.

Mil forum is for the aviation arms of the services - discussion thereof.

If you want to rebut me for god's sake find something we have closed or deleted that actually directly affects service men, women and their families. Find an issue regarding your day to day lives we have blocked or binned.

The sun comes up tomorrow whether you visit or not. Life continues. PPRuNe thunders on regardless for it's 11th year and Danny and I will continue to mold, change and develop this amateurish disaster without ever listening to an 'expert' in hosting, moderating, sales or marketing.

Pip! Pip!
Rob

[Tonkenna]

What a sad state of affairs this has led to...

So many threads here have no direct link to flying:
Campaign Medal for Bomber Command... no direct link
Chinook - Still hitting back 3... no direct link
Does any one remember my Dad?...no direct link
the rather pointless if Carlsberg made WRAF... do I need to go on?

but, they are what makes up the majority of the Mil pages of PPRUNE. There has often been a load of junk posted and you did have to wade through it to get to the interesting stuff, but this latest batch of "moderating" seems to be inconsistent... all the above and many more should be removed if we are to have posts with direct flying related content.

I don't post as much as I used to, but have been around on the site since before the Mil pages (since Jan 99) and I have even paid for my little title on the side... perhaps it is time to have a look at E.goat or whatever its called.

Tonks:confused:

[BEagle]

Perhaps enough as now been written by all on this thread to draw it to a dignified conclusion?

I think the message has now been effectively communicated.

"Pontificating post pubescent politicos"..."Google gob****es"

Nice aliteration - and accurate!

[ShyTorque]

A personal title is a one off payment and shows a certain commitment. Other sites, e.g. Friends Reunited, expect you to stump up every year, if you wish to be a full member.

The forum was started as a hobby, discussing aviation matters. It was never meant to be a commercial concern but DF had to ask for financial assistance to allow the site to continue because of the ever increasing cost of the bigger and better equipment required to allow sufficient bandwidth.

IMHO, Danny made a slight mistake back then because he should have made it mandatory to contribute financially. Somewhere along the line, a huge number of contributors decided to jump on board because they didn't have to pay anything for posting privileges.

My suggestion would be to require a small payment to post or to access certain areas of this site, which is quite normal these days for many other websites dealing with technical matters. That will sort out the bandwidth problem.

I'm a member of another engineering based website, based in USA, where the originator has no qualms about telling contributors to go away if he feels a post (even a genuine question) is not up to his standards. They get a very terse reminder to use the search engine and go away.

The severely piqued ones claiming to de-register are cutting off their own noses out of spite and won't be missed. I can almost guarantee that they will still be out there, unable to resist the temptation to take a sneaky look.

P.S. Beagle, now you're no longer an impoverished military pilot, it's time you got your hand in your pocket, too. Only about a quarter of a tankload of fuel for that musclecar of yours (that you so much enjoy telling us all about) would do it. :)

[scroggs]

Hmmmm,
And at what point was any JPA thread interefered with? Any welfare thread? Any housing thread? Allowances and tax? Mull? Herc and foam? Lean? Overstretch? WBF even?
Rob
OK, prolly my fault for going off on that particular tangent!

Rob's quite right - the number of threads that have been moderated, compared to the noise made about them, is very small. Despite my own philosophical objections to the detailed discussion of non-aviation matters military, none of these have been removed.

Perhaps enough as now been written by all on this thread to draw it to a dignified conclusion?

Oi, spoilsport. I'm enjoying this!

I obviously have too much time on my hands today. But it gives me a break from matters of major moment happening not 10 metres from my left ear.

Scroggs

[GPMG]

I wouldnt be surprised if the mil side of these forums is being wound down so that the rest can be sold to a commercial buyer. So the admins have decided that Rob should take on the persona of obnoxious git and take the flack, surely he's not like this usualy otherwise he'd probably sport a permenant shiner.

A real shame, this forum was a mine of information and was used by some of the most interesting people I have "met" online.

Hope the moderators have a wake up call and wind their necks in, doubt it will happen though.

[Ron Fenest]

Seems to me that too many people have lives that appear to revolve around t'interweb and should get out more...a lot more.

This is the funniest thread I've ever come across on PPRUNE.

[scroggs]

Oh great. Conspiracy theories now. Chemtrails a Pprune plot, anyone?

Incidentally, for those poor souls who feel that this forum is getting an unwarranted amount of attention from the mods, with threads being locked all over the place, have you looked in Rumours and News ever? At any one time, half the threads on the first page will have been locked and/or moved. Same in Wannabes, Jetblast, Dunnunda & Godzone and many others*. Mil Aircrew gets a very light touch in comparison.

Scroggs

* Perhaps our conspiracy theorist can suggest which forums are going to be left for the mystery commercial buyer now?

[GPMG]

So your proud that several other forums get heavy handed attention from Mods? And you think that this one deserves the same handling?

I think you guys seem to have sprung a leak in your think tank.

Ciao ciao, I'll sit back and watch this sad state of affairs.

Ohhhhhh feel the mod power.

[BattlerBritain]

Just so long as nobody cuts the 'Caption Competition' thread.
That's probably the main reason I peruse this site.
Love Rob's comments though.
PMSL at those - best laugh in ages.
Cheers Dood :D

[Mr-AEO]

I'm new to this and sadly won't continue the journey. A good few posts here on REAL aviation issues affecting us in the Mil, but sadly, as quite clearly pointed out, Mil Forums does not appear to be wanted here.

I appreciate the Mod/Owners view, but that doesn't stop Rob coming across as an arrogant sod in the way he has sold it.

So goodbye, please delete my account as I don't appear to be able to.

[scroggs]

So your proud that several other forums get heavy handed attention from Mods? And you think that this one deserves the same handling?

Oh dear, it seems the message is not getting through to the hard of reading. Of the 220 threads currently visible on Mil Aircrew from the last month, 8 have been locked in the last three weeks for the reasons Rob gave, and one further has been locked for abuse. Two threads have been deleted by their originators. None have been deleted or moved by moderators. That is evidence of a very light touch. Now, if that level of moderation offends you, go somewhere else. I very much doubt you'll be missed.

Scroggs

[scroggs]

I'm new to this and sadly won't continue the journey. A good few posts here on REAL aviation issues affecting us in the Mil, but sadly, as quite clearly pointed out, Mil Forums does not appear to be wanted here.

More tosh. Mil Aircrew has been here for many years. It will continue to be here in years to come. It is most certainly wanted, but it is offered for your use on our terms, not yours.

Scroggs

[brain fade]

Rob, Danny et al

Prune is fun and all credit to you guys for running it.

Rob, in your recent posts you seem to have forgotten that without the contributors, your site is worth 2/8 of 3/5 of f*ck all!

As you're plainly not doing it for a living and you don't care what the posters want or think, why are you doing it?

Surely the point of running the thing at all is to elicit and marshall the thoughts of your fellows.

Why not fess up to the real reason for deleting threads- which is that you don't like anything which conflicts too directly with your own opinions.

Thus making you seem rather narrow minded.

IMHO of course.;)

[ShyTorque]

So goodbye, please delete my account as I don't appear to be able to.

Account? Doesn't an account involve money? :rolleyes:

[Whirlygig]

Well some people have given a very clear account of themselves and others demonstrate that there's no accounting for opinion!

Cheers

Whirls

[cockneyrock]

One thing is for certain, the amount of bitching, whining and moaning appearing on this thread leaves us in no doubt that this in a aircrew forum. :}

[Postman Plod]

Perhaps the issue now is not what threads have been locked / moved, how the mil forum is managed / moderated, etc, but what has been said and done since?

Maybe if this is getting too much to handle, you should get someone to manage it for you? Maybe you should go commercial? Maybe you should lock it down to registered users, or those who have paid for a title? Perhaps we're seeing an emerging tentative change of direction from the site owners, and perhaps they are unsure of where to go from here, and its showing in the comments made?

Comparing this site to the likes of FriendsReunited isn't valid - it always has been a commercial site - this hasn't. Its also owned by ITV - a commercial company.

If you want to change direction, it would be nice to be told. Speak to your users. Be civil with them. Treat them as adults. We'll do whatever you want probably! We'll understand! Tell us, what exactly is the problem? What is the difference between what YOU want, and what WE seem to want? What would we need to do to help you get what WE ALL want? A moderator? Some forum rules? Help us out here! In words of 1 syllable! Help us understand!

The people making comments here obviously give enough of a crap about PPRuNe to speak up - so take advantage of us! We might not have paid, we might be PITA users, but we're here! Let us help! Ask us, dont alienate us - you might be surprised at the results! (you might not - who knows.... :p )

PPRuNe isn't my life - my other forum is my life. This is just a little affair I keep having....

[An Teallach]

I never realised my fellow ppruners were such sensitive souls! I commend Scroggs on his exceptional patience and recommend we get over it. So a few threads were closed, the sun will come up tomorrow and life will go on.

[GANNET FAN]

Well some people have given a very clear account of themselves and others demonstrate that there's no accounting for opinion!

Cheers

Whirls
Well you would say that wouldn't you, on account of you being an bean counter.
JC

[StopStart]

Notwithstanding his forthright comments on the userbase of this site, I have to agree with the comments made by Rob over these pages. It's their trainset and they can do with it as they please.

I used to frequent Pprune a fair bit in years gone by and have "followed" the site since the early days of the daily pprune email. When the military forum started up there was some interesting stuff on here and many people would read and enjoy it. Nowadays there really is an awful lot of crap posted and mostly it's just pointless whinging by prima donnas who flounce off declaring that the end is nigh and that they're going to PVR imminently. Yeah, whatever.

I for one would be glad to see a return to the good ole days of interesting, aviation-relevant threads and intelligent banter, not the drooling toss that seems to permeate so many threads these days.

And for those you cancelling your subscriptions in a dramatic, Private Eye kinda way, bye - don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

:hmm:

[TMJ]

As a fairly recent joiner and infrequent poster, I have to say I'm right behind the mods. The trainset ownership rule fully applies. For the talk of censorship; no-one's stopping you saying anything on your own site/blog/photocopied newsheet, but if the guys who own this site don't want stuff on it, it's right for said stuff to be removed. Whingeing about principles and suchlike strikes me as a tad barrackroom-lawyeresque and, frankly, seems like a waste of time as the mods' tone isn't that of people about to bow to pressure.

As it is I find the forum interesting and will continue to read it (and add my occasional ha'penn'orth) as long as it continues to be so. And to avoid putting any more load on the poor overstrained server, I'll post no more to this thread and urge everyone else to do the same.

[MightyGem]

The most serious thing that I've noted about this thread(which everyone else seems to have missed), is that ABIW appears to have stopped drinking! Is the poor chap ill?? :E

[ZH875]

Probably just Skint, waiting for JPA to pay him his beer chits post Christmas.:)

[Echo 5]

The most serious thing that I've noted about this thread(which everyone else seems to have missed), is that ABIW appears to have stopped drinking! Is the poor chap ill?? :E
Only cos it's the end of the festivities and the d/f is blown. He'll restock PDQ I should think.:)


Oops...........sorry, is banter still on the agenda ?

[WorkingHard]

I think the mods are really superb and have drawn out the true feelings of many military types who frequent these pages. One must draw ones own conclusions about the mental state of some of them but we must also presume that those who take themeselves away because they cannot get their own way are a very small minority of military aircrew. At least let us hope so

[4fitter]

Aaand breath.

It's not the end of the world. No major threads have gone. And we are all happy that ABIW has manageable LFTs !

4f

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I am a little confused. As this thread has absolutely no relevance to the "military aircrew" ethos why is it not closed:=

[Wrathmonk]

For those who have chucked the Teddies out of the cot, assuming they are still lurking (or have re-registered under another name ...:E ) you may wish to try here (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=5), here (http://www.aviation.siu.edu/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16), here (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21), here (http://avitop.com/cs/forums/default.aspx?GroupID=8) or here (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/). Not forgetting our green brothers here (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewforum/f=24.html) or indeed our dark blue friends here (http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewforum/f=7.html) (although I'm not sure how much longer this last one has before it needs to go into the Historical section!:E . I'm sure they would all welcome your inputs.

Of course, you could always swallow your pride, accept the rules of the owners of the forum/site, stop acting like Premiership footballers who have been told they've got to sell their Range Rovers / Baby Bentleys etc and keep contributing here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=57)!:p

Just a thought. There's been some good stuff in this forum. Obviously some real tosh as well. Perhaps we should start again, vote on the threads we want to keep and ditch the rest. Personally, I would like to see some form of formal moderation and perhaps a restricted access side to the Military forum (although I know we have been round these buoys several times before and have decided against it).

Bottom line, and has been said many times before. Like the RAF, if you don't like the way its being run vote with your feet. At least you won't lose your flying pay / pension by leaving PPruNe!;)

[L Peacock]

This is possibly the most entertaining thread I've ever read on pprune.
Rob, you are a star.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Moderation here is fine.
Some people need to learn a lttle a little restecp for the board owners.

Can't believe the childish behaviour of the whiners.
Like spoilt 3 yr olds.

[G-AWZK]

If you think the moderation on this website is tough, you should see what it is like here (http://www.pproon.com/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=f705569185fee20b073e24bf9f5b7882)

Watch out for The Gannet, he doesn't like non Trident lovers.

[Wrathmonk]

The Vulcan thread alone deserves a :D :D :D :D :D

Who says civvies can't banter! Fog again toaday at Heathrow?

But who is paying for it.:E Does this mean we can lock this thread and get back to routine business?

[cargosales]

Tigs,
We don't give a stuff regarding advertisers. No sales people - none. We got suckered into that sales thing a couple of years ago and ended up with the site being run to pay the sales people. I've very glad to say we fired them a year ago. Advertisers now come to us under our terms. No pay by the click. No forum targeting. No one on commission. We set a price - they pay it or the ad doesn't appear. Just in case you can't read between the lines we don't like ads - they are a pain in the arse. Get the site back down to 10,000 users and we can do without ads like we used to.
Rob

Hmm. Something I should have picked up on last night.

If what you say above is true, i.e. you don't give a stuff about advertisers, why is it that there are several house advertisements (i.e. Pprune ads inviting people to advertise, and extolling the benefits of advertising on Pprune) currently running on the site?

E.g. http://www.pprune.org/advert.php

Just asking out of idle curiosity like

[TheInquisitor]

'Tis not so much the moderation itself that has been objected to, but the manner in which perfectly reasonable questions, posed by some posters, have been responded to. Yes, this board DOES belong to Danny, and he, through his appointed moderators, may run it as he sees fit - I don't think anybody is trying to deny that.

Many here are also starting to suspect what Rob's motives may be for (a) removing certain posts, and (b) the tirade of abuse that has followed what, IMHO, was a legitimate enquiry as to the reason for (a).
Comments such as:
Pontificating post pubescent politicos who'd argue with their own toenails. The Google gob****es and the 'I could have been a policy wonksters'.
...are clearly abusive and, coupled with the (not even disguised) use of profane language, clearly violate the rules of posting on these forums that Danny and his moderators have promulgated and seek to enforce. How can you expect forum users to abide by the rules you set when you do not yourself?

PPRuNe may well be
As of this week the 12th busiest bulletin board in the world
...but much of that is down to the users of THIS forum - aside from JetBlast, Mil is your biggest forum by a considerable margin, not just in terms of post numbers, but in terms of numbers of members / guests reading it. Perhaps that is the REAL reson for the cull - getting 'too big for our boots'? If the story about server space / capacity overloading, requiring some pruning, is true, then perhaps JetBlast wouldn't be a bad place to start? Almost THREE TIMES the number of posts in there as in here, and a great majority of it genuinely IS irrelevant twaddle, generated largely by a relatively small number of very active posters, that has nothing to do with aviation. Trying instead to reduce the scope of the Mil forum will only leave PPRuNe a poorer place, IMHO - this forum has been so successful precisely because it gives us Mil types, and those with an interest in Mil aviation, the opportunity to discuss issues that ARE relevant to US. Take that away, and you will be cutting off your nose to spite your face. A very large proportion of your traffic, and the subsequent ad revenue, is down to the users of this forum.

But, as has already been stated, this is YOUR site. You may remove, lock, delete or moderate as you see fit. With that in mind, may I make 3 requests?

1. If you decide to remove / lock a post / topic, can you at least be clear and honest about your reasons why? If it is simply because a topic or poster has pissed you off, then say so.

2. If so many posters are transgressing the rules of a specific forum, then it may be the case that those rules are not as clear as they should be. It would be in everybody's interests if it were clearly stated just what IS and ISN'T acceptable in the Mil forum. If you wish to impose rules in THIS forum that differ to those of the other forums, it would be helpful to us all if they were sticky'd at the forum head. We can then have the opportunity to review these rules and choose to go elsewhere if we disagree, rather than waste YOUR time arguing it out in threads such as this one.

3. Everyone accepts that you may do as you wish here. However, we, almost without exception, would not take an arrogant, high-handed tone with the moderators, or hurl childish abuse at them. I would request that you do us, your users, the same courtesy.

[bowly]

Been laughing about this one for a while..........then interest rates went up again and spoilt what has been a most entertaining days reading.

Their trainset, so wait 'till the world goes by, and grab on.

More mil aviation threads plse......and no more dross.

[ratty1]

Been laughing about this one for a while..........then interest rates went up again and spoilt what has been a most entertaining days reading.

Their trainset, so wait 'till the world goes by, and grab on.

More mil aviation threads plse......and no more dross.

I am still laughing as I have a fixed rate mortgage.:ok:

[L Peacock]

it just gets better:ok:

this could be a watershed.

rob, while you're at it, would you please PLEASE edit over-use of :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[ratty1]

Also the overuse of CAPS LOCK:ugh::ugh::ugh:.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ratty 1

My sides are aching! I don't have a mortgage.

[ratty1]

You wouldn't have a mortgage on your housing association pad......:E

[bowly]

Ratfink:

B'stard!:{

Oooops, thread creep........

[L Peacock]

Ratty fair cop but in fairness I used the shift key.

I have a savings account:)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ratty 1

I wouldn't dream of selling my house to any Association. It's mine, I tell you; mine!

Correcting Thread drift; now, now, now.

[allan907]

Oh dear, it seems the message is not getting through to the hard of reading.

Exactly! Scroggs, Danny and Rob read the following again....

If you want to change direction, it would be nice to be told. Speak to your users. Be civil with them. Treat them as adults. We'll do whatever you want probably! We'll understand! Tell us, what exactly is the problem? What is the difference between what YOU want, and what WE seem to want? What would we need to do to help you get what WE ALL want? A moderator? Some forum rules? Help us out here! In words of 1 syllable! Help us understand!

I appreciate the Mod/Owners view, but that doesn't stop Rob coming across as an arrogant sod in the way he has sold it.


....and a quote from Rob

Danny and I are a disrespectful, rude pair of tossers

I guess that comment is typical of the chav attitude to IT. Hate to see what your CRM skills are :yuk:

[SASless]

Just please don't bin the use of ".....................(bold print)" or I am in trouble as my use of grammar and proper sentence construction failed Miss Hazel's best efforts to correct my shortcomings.:(

[tucumseh]

“What a sad state of affairs this has led to...

So many threads here have no direct link to flying:
Chinook - Still hitting back 3... no direct link”

I don’t often take issue with posts here – I firmly believe people are entitled to their own opinion. But if anyone thinks a thread which has highlighted an example of complete and utter disregard for the safety and airworthiness of military aircraft, and the MoD’s continual lying and dissembling about the subject, as having “no direct link to flying” then I despair. However, I can think of a few who would like that thread to disappear. Some are retired; others are very senior in DPA and DLO. Ministers, past and present, certainly would. Which side are you on?

[BenThere]

A few months ago I received a banning PM from Rob, aka Pprune Towers. I was struck by its rude tone and slam on me as an American.

For an hour or two I felt angry with him and very nearly attempted to retaliate with a reply written at his level. Then I realized this is a venue where he can push people around, and I think his psyche needs that. I decided to let him go unscathed.

He intrudes on my Ppruning only infrequently, and he can't be all bad, having been a founder of this site. I will take satisfaction in the fact that my continued presence on Pprune here niggles him, and be amused at his antics.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"A few months ago I received a banning PM from Rob, aka Pprune Towers. I was struck by its rude tone and slam on me as an American."

So he's not all bad then:E

[robsaknob]

......and I just had to press-to-test and see how long this post and registration stay for!

Kinda hoping that Rob et al have now clicked that nobody minds them having utter control of their site but most people won't put up with arrogant and abusive drivel as posted by Rob. Do that in the real world fella and you wouldn't retain your speach facility for long, so why do it here?

Hoping that we all calm down and that Rob swallows his pride and says the wee word..

[Roghead]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPRuNe Towers
We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully.

So, many have accepted this style of management as acceptable, many have not. I'm from the old school and am reminded why I was happy to leave civil aviation and the aviation industry......Self important pratts! I'm sure that Rob leaves all his aggro behind when he flies, but I'd rather walk.
A warning, however. It's not possible to delete one's posts from closed threads (should that be desired) and there appears to be no way to de-register. So, I'll just have to hang around in Rob's Cyberspace train set, like it or not.:O

[QFIhawkman]

I'm with you Roghead.

Users we may be, and customers we may not be, granted, but perhaps Rob should consider who got his site where it is today. The users.

On reflection, I should have said "where the site was a couple of months back." It's in freefall now, and I'm not surprised. With a dictatorial attitude like that, I hope it crashes down around him.

I'll not be back.

Cheers all, it was fun. At times.

[Jetdriver]

......and I just had to press-to-test and see how long this post and registration stay for!
Kinda hoping that Rob et al have now clicked that nobody minds them having utter control of their site but most people won't put up with arrogant and abusive drivel as posted by Rob. Do that in the real world fella and you wouldn't retain your speach facility for long, so why do it here?
Hoping that we all calm down and that Rob swallows his pride and says the wee word..

"Okay then...
...Rob, if that is the attitude in PPRuNe Towers I'll walk."

In circles presumably ? :D

[ABX]

I doubt that any of us mind playing by the house rules, but I know for sure that all of us like to be addressed in a civilised manner. It was mostly the tone of Rob's posts that offended and not the exercise of his authority here on his home patch.

If a lack of bandwidth really is the issue here, why not junk Jetblast completely, there is very little direct aviation content to be had there.

I'll be staying around to enjoy the fun.

2 cents worth.

[Level 28]

It's an interesting observation in human nature to see those who have said their goodbyes back online hours later to see if their reply has generated a reaction!?*


:confused:



Arrogant ;) Rude :=

[unconcerned]

TACEVAL:
Battle you have a chance of winning?
If not, options?

If HMAF can't work that out for themselves then we're all Doooooomed :hmm:

[FJJP]

I am not computer-literate enough to know the answer: will it help if we go back over our history of initiating threads and delete those that are time-expired and/or no longer relevant? That would free up quite a bit of disk space, so I really am asking if reducing used disk space would help in any way?

I would appreciate advice and if necessary I'll spend time doing a clearout...

BTW, I wasn't going to get involved in this punch-up, but I've changed my mind. Too bad if the sensitivities of some mean that feathers have been ruffled. As some have pointed out, it's their trainset and I, for one, have always been an advocate of making the point if necessarily in hard-hitting 'rude' fashion; it often reinforces the point and makes people sit up and think once the initial angry reaction cools down.

I have no intention whatsoever of throwing my teddy out of the cot just because Rob got a monk on and gave someone a snotty blast. Too much good stuff [and regard between fellow professionals] to give up my daily fix!

FJJP

[L Peacock]

level28

only your second post I notice :E

[ratty1]

and I, for one, have always been an advocate of making the point if necessarily in hard-hitting 'rude' fashion; it often reinforces the point and makes people sit up and think once the initial angry reaction cools down.


The only thing it would make think is that the person being rude is incapable of putting over their point in a calm and rational way.

[Lyneham Lad]

I am still laughing as I have a fixed rate mortgage.:ok:

Whereas I am chuckling all the way to the bank, having no mortgage at all :)

(Yes, LL Towers does exist, in case anyone was thinking of a smart reply about tents or some such......)
:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

To show all's fair, a new thread I posted today was closed within minutes. Nice one, Rob, or whoever did it! ;)
Oh well, no complaints from me, Teddy's still in his cot! :ok:

[wg13_dummy]

Not much of a suprise that it's a bunch of crabs whining about bugger all again.

[enginesuck]

Im not exactly a regular poster on here but an avid reader none the less.... I wont be back.

The Future is The Goat, www.e-goat.co.uk 'Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free.....'

[BEagle]

A most appallingly working class website. Very lower order and 'NAAFI-whinger' in nature.

[Lyneham Lad]

A most appallingly working class website. Very lower order and 'NAAFI-whinger' in nature.

That you have posted to 11,391 times................

Or did you mean the thread? Whatever - by the baldly-stated terms of Pprune Towers, this thread should have been shot at birth.

[wg13_dummy]

That you have posted to 11,391 times................
Or did you mean the thread? Whatever - by the baldly-stated terms of Pprune Towers, this thread should have been shot at birth.


(I Think beeegs was on about E-Goat. :ok: )

This mil forum would never allow such mixing between the Officer class and the OR's!

[Vim_Fuego]

I don't see what the fuss is about. I don't mean with the moderation side of this 'debate' as from what they've said I think they've shown themselves up somewhat but as many have stated before me, it's their trainset and they can bash it around as they want. What I mean is that looking at the front page of 'threads in forum' 70% of the threads in play as I type this have pretty much nothing directly to do with aviation, mil or otherwise so it looks like they've listened in part to whats been written and backed off.

Beagle...Your last post must have got you so animated that the biscuit crumbs must have been tumbling off your cardy...working class indeed!

[BEagle]

I did, of course, mean that appalling goat nonsense.

Truly dire.

[SRENNAPS]

Well, what a thread.
I joined Prune back in 98 or 99 (last days of Bruggen) when a Station Exec told me about a scandal that was going on, over an incident on the Sqn near the golf course.
I fell in love with Prune immediately, reading about so many aspects of aviation “IN ALL FORUMS”
Serious, humorous and emotional (I openly admit that I have cried several times).
I have posted several times on the Mil forum (mainly on a Friday night after a few beers). I have even started a couple of threads, which did wind a few people up, but hey, it was good fun and excellent discussion.
But over the last 12 months I have seen the military aircrew site go downhill rapidly.
I am suggesting that the number of whinging/argumentative threads have become a joke.
Certain people here just seem hell bent on slagging somebody or something off.
It just seems that this forum is no longer a place to discuss a matter, whether it be aviation or military matters, without it degenerating into a pathetic go at each other.
In my opinion, the people that have contributed to this problem are mainly people who have joined Prune in the last 12 months. (Not all of you – some have given some very good contributions). I think the JPA thread invited a lot of new people who just wanted to moan.
A few years ago only genuine people used Prune. Then it became popular and attracted all the knobs of the world. You know the kind of people I am talking about. They are the ones that said the world was flat!!!!!
But I will always remember Prune for what it was.
Well done the moderators. You have done a superb job over the years and Thank You.
Bye the way……. PS. I am leaving the Royal Air Force after 29 years. I really hope “Prune – Military Aircrew” carries on so I can reminisce over past years (and remind myself of why I was glad to leave in the end).
Oh and PPS – Yes I have had a few beers on a Friday night and this reply is probably out of date. Sorry.

[enginesuck]

I did, of course, mean that appalling goat nonsense.
Truly dire.
I know I said I wouldnt be back but i was interested.... Beagle you remind me of that chap in the shawshank redemption....... Institutionalized. If Pprune was to no longer exist I suspect you would be found swinging, Perhaps a more suitable name might be say 'Brooks'
Apologies if you havent seen it.
ES

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Enigine sucks,

That would involve him having a televisual device, one of those new fangled cd lookalike discs and a crowbar to prize him out of his own ar$e

[jindabyne]

To the last two posters

QUOTE]Certain people here just seem hell bent on slagging somebody or something off.
It just seems that this forum is no longer a place to discuss a matter, whether it be aviation or military matters, without it degenerating into a pathetic go at each other.
In my opinion, the people that have contributed to this problem are mainly people who have joined Prune in the last 12 months[/QUOTE]

Your caps fit

[BEagle]

Indeed.

Sirsaltyhelmet, such language may be acceptable on that tawdry little website which you allegedly moderate, but is not acceptable on PPRuNe.

And do tell your fellow 'moderator' colleagues that 'nob' does not mean the same thing as 'knob'. If you're going to insult people, at least be accurate.

This is the sort of comment one reads on that 'other' site:

"Right listen in, thems lots at prune are a bunch of toffs thems bannded me jus becos i teld some old pilot i wud snap his spine"

If the actions of the PPRuNe moderators of recent days have served to rid PPRuNe of such folk, then all credit to them.

[SASless]

Beags dear fellow......

Please do not engage in a battle of wits with the unarmed.....it is far too easy for you.;)

[Echo 5]

BEagle,
"Right listen in, thems lots at prune are a bunch of toffs thems bannded me jus becos i teld some old pilot i wud snap his spine"

Did someone actually post that or are you having a larf ?:confused:

Oh, bye the way.................from enginesuck

" Apologies if you havent seen it.
ES "

That is ES as in Echo Sierra not Echo Five.

[Lyneham Lad]

Given the current tone of this thread (and I continue to be amazed it being allowed to continue), the following quotation seems to be very appropriate:-

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."
Eleanor Roosevelt

[allan907]

I think that Tony Blair's involvement in Iraq is a bad idea.

At least my mind has a large span:E

[ratty1]

I wont be back.



I know I said I wouldnt be back but i was interested.

Loser............................:hmm:

[dantura]

A most appallingly working class website. Very lower order and 'NAAFI-whinger' in nature.

BEagle,
I thought you were an educated man and have enjoyed some of your previous posts, but a statement like the above shows a distinct lack of education or condescending bigotry.

To bunch a group of people, of whom you do not know, into your own self perceived upper hierarchical class structure, shows a very ugly streak of discrimination.



This is the sort of comment one reads on that 'other' site:

"Right listen in, thems lots at prune are a bunch of toffs thems bannded me jus becos i teld some old pilot i wud snap his spine"



Obviously, you do not understand 'Ironic Humour'.

E-Goat exists as a light hearted site, where one can engage in a discussion about ANY subject matter. Whether it be aviation, light banter, topical, 'Ironic Humour'...etc. and believe it or not, sometimes in an educated manner! The binding theme...that we are all in some way or other, related to the RAF. There is one simple rule, if you do not like a thread, do not read it.

You wish to make PPRUNE a class divided site, yet still refuse to even make a donation? This smacks of contempt for the guys who work hard to keep your, well used, site up and running.
It seems that, even now, after you have retired from the RAF, you still think that everything should be handed out to you on your proverbial silver platter.


"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

I suggest you start your own forum, where you can pick and choose who enters and you can moderate it according to your own outdated values.

Welcome to 2007.

D

[Monty77]

Let yourself down there Beagle. Pity.

[An Teallach]

dantura wrote:BEagle,
I thought you were an educated man and have enjoyed some of your previous posts, but a statement like the above shows a distinct lack of education or condescending bigotry.
To bunch a group of people, of whom you do not know, into your own self perceived upper hierarchical class structure, shows a very ugly streak of discrimination.
Obviously, you do not understand 'Ironic Humour'
Hello Kettle, this is Pot. Message, over!

[dantura]

dantura wrote:

Hello Kettle, this is Pot. Message, over!

Are you really trying to say that his posts were ironic?

I think not.

There appears to be a few members here that seriously need to try and extract themselves from the darker recesses of BEagle. I think you know who you are?

D

[Monty77]

I can detect no irony in what Beagle wrote.

[Tourist]

dantura.
Take that back!

Disrespect to the site owners is one thing, but the members of this site will not stand for anything less than blind devotion to the altar of BUgle!!!

[scroggs]

And I think, now that this has become an internecine insult-fest between Mil Aircrew inhabitants, it's time to close the curtains...

It's been fun, chaps. ;)

Scroggs