View Full Version : The price of freedom


bwicker
8th Jan 2007, 09:50
Recently we've come under a little fire for the use of our practice fields about the noise that we generate. Doing a little browsing i've found this website that most of you may or may not have seen. http://www.stopthenoise.org

These guys are ridiculous in their propositions, and it scares me that there are people out there that crazy. Because fanatics always seem to find one another and unite, and when they do they can do some scary things. I think we as pilots don't give these guys enough credit for the damage that they COULD do. There is probably no reasoning with them, however i've tried, so i'm going to include an email that i sent to them just to get some opinions on what others thing about what i said, and maybe we could unite and provide more of a common front against these people.

My email to the website below.

I recently had the "pleasure" of coming across your website. I say "pleasure" because I feel that it is important as Americans that we exercise our rights as a people. However, I must say that I am VERY disturbed by the undertones in your website.

I agree with you that every person is entitled to peace if they want it. However, You speak as if you and the homeowners in your group are the only ones who are entitled to their rights as Americans. You imply that you as a homeowner have the right to do what you wish while, I as a pilot, do not have the right to do a perfectly legal activity for my own pleasure. Think of it this way, IF you win your battle (based on the absurdities of your claim, you will not) then you will be infringing on my right to do an activity that i've devoted MANY hours and MANY hard earned dollars towards excelling at. In this fact we are all at a sort of Catch-22 if you will. If you exercise all of your rights, you will be infringing on mine.

You are right on at least one account, in that we as pilots flock to uninhabited areas for practice. We do so for two main reasons. First and foremost is out of consideration for safety, both to ourselves and the public. Flying is inherently dangerous activity that we as pilots fully understand and accept. Most of the public does not accept this and we would not expect them to. So, if we're practicing a maneuver and heaven forbid a problem arises with the aircraft we have an uninhabited area to let down. And then we have our own safety to consider. Areas congested with people such as towns and cities generally have an airport nearby, with that airport comes aircraft traffic. Imagine the chaos and danger of a midair accident that would be created with an aircraft practicing turns around a point in an approach corridors. The second reason we do so was us being polite to the majority of the public. We understand that constant aircraft traffic at low altitudes can be distracting (although with the recreational flying you describe it's not "dangerous" to your hearing) And it's funny that this is what you're taking action against, because we're doing it to avoid bugging people like you. It just so happens that we aim to please the majority. If 40,000 people live in one area, and 300 live in an area near there, naturally we will want to go to the less inhabited area, i'm sorry that you live in that area.

What if I lived next to a highway (I do) and the noise from the traffic was interupting my sleep (at times it does), and I felt that the drivers who were driving and creating this noise were mostly drivers who were just driving for just the fun of driving on a beautiful sunday afternoon in their cars with loud exhaust systems? Therefore I attempted to sue these drivers. Maybe it's something about my mindset, but i find that to be a ridiculous thought.
Let's spend some time thinking of the practicalities of your ultimate goal. How can you, as a homeowner, establish the difference between a pilot flying for the joy of it and a student pilot working on an advanced rating hoping to get a job with the airlines? Also, how can you determine the altitude of an aircraft flying overhead? I've got to tell you something, i've been around airplanes for 15 years, i've spent countless hours sitting outside at the airport chatting with fellow pilots watching airplanes fly around, and I still can not tell the altitude of an aircraft that's flying by with any accuracy. I feel that is justified by the attempts that you've made to have administrative actions taken against pilots for "flying too low" with the FAA and them not taking the action because they've reviewed radar tapes, etc. But I can tell you that the naked eye would not be able to tell the difference between 500 feet and 1000 feet when on the ground. But I digress; let's assume for a moment that your proposed action takes place. Where would training flights occur? Since we would not be able to do them over open fields in fear of someone hearing us? Maybe we could do them over an airport, you ask. However, that makes no sense, because now we have people building houses or moving within a mile of an active airport and them complaining about noise from "pesky airplanes" Which is probably one of the stupidest things i've ever heard of... You say you're not trying to shut out general aviation, but sir, we all know that is what you are proposing through your actions. So; now we have no flight training going on, by civilian and military pilots because we may raise the noise level on the ground by 8dB. So what right? Who needs military aviation? What harm could come from running out of airline pilots and not being able to train any more? No one thinks air travel is efficient or practical anyhow! W-R-O-N-G my good sir. Maybe I should sue NASA every time a satellite traverses the sky within my sight at night because it interferes with my right to look up and see the beauty of a natural sky?

I'm flipping through your website and i'm finding specific arguments of yours that are not valid or otherwise preposterous:

1.) You say that the FAA does not take legal actions against pilots? Tell that to the numerous pilots who are fined, have their tickets revoked, or face other administrative actions every year.

2.) "practicing noisy maneuvers that serve no purpose other than to please the pilots and to enrich those who rented them the airplane."-- I take it from this statement that you haven't spent much time talking with pilots about this issue, and i mean talking and LISTENING. Most maneuvers practiced by pilots in non-aerobatic aircraft aren't pointless as you'd like to deceive your readers into believing. Especially for student pilots these maneuvers establish coordination between the eyes, the mind, and the actions. I really wish that you would fly with an instructor some day and try some of these "pointless maneuvers" and maybe you would see how they relate to proficiency in the air. These maneuvers help the novice pilot understand the wind on the affects of the path of the aircraft. If you see an aircraft circling a tree 99 times out of a hundred it's not just putting the aircraft in a bank and holding it there and you'll get it right. Your eyes are constantly moving around, juggling looking for other traffic, keeping an eye on your point that you're circling, judging the effect of wind on your current flight path, deciding what kind of corrections will be necessary to keep the aircraft flying a perfect circle around the point. Those are all fundamentals of basic airmanship, navigation, and task saturation. These skills need to be practiced from time to time. You'll always be able to do them once you learn it, but you won't be nearly as good or safe unless you practice often.

3.) "Pilots enjoy anonymity while flying above our homes and lands. Pilots like this for obvious reasons. FAA likes it because it enables them to take no action on citizen complaints."-- Sir, we have no anonymity. As you mentioned, there is a listing of all aircraft and their registration numbers on the FAA's website. As a driver you have more anonymity than I do as a pilot. I can read the registration numbers on most aircraft while in the traffic pattern (an established 1000 feet) quite clearly. How many license plates can you read from 1000 feet? Even if you could read a license plate how much more difficult is it to get specific information on that driver such as his name and address? I whole heartedly support the FAA in their argument against overly large N-numbers under the wings of aircraft, mainly because of people like you and your followers. I like knowing that I have to be doing something illegal before someone can sue me. The easier it is for you to see those numbers the more likely we as pilots will receive more FRIVOLOUS lawsuits. Don't get me wrong, if someone is doing something illegal, actions need to be taken. But if you can not see those numbers, there's a good chance with most aircraft that they're not flying illegally.

There are more, however, I will not get into them at the moment for lack of time, but i'm sure you get my point, and if you don't please ask me.

We, as a people, are an overly litigious society, and you are no exception. It is my understanding that you did not attempt to talk to these pilots realistically in an effort to overcome these problems outside of the court room. I believe you are a prime example of someone taking advantage of a wonderful system of laws that we have here in the United states. But what's even more interesting is that you're taking advantage of these laws in order to please yourself while taking away the rights of others, and i hope you see that in the end you're really hurting yourself as well. So sir, i implore you to quit trying to infringe on my rights.

I'm assuming that this letter will never make it on to you website because i'm not making threatening statements to strengthen your cause. Honestly, I feel that those pilots are acting out of anger, and I don't condone it, but I don't blame them. If we threatened to take away your right to do a hobby that you are completely passionate about i'm sure you'd be angry as well.

The gist of this is that we have attempted to appeal to the masses, we will never be able to appeal to ALL people, but that's life. When i'm at the park reading I don't get upset that I'm hearing children ruin my concentration with their laughter while playing an "unnecessary" game of baseball. I just feel you are being selfish, but you have that right I suppose. So sir, if your proposed action comes to light (again, i'm not worried) and I am forced to quit training for my future airline career, you WILL be receiving a lawsuit from me for ruining my livelihood.

http://myspace-032.vo.llnwd.net/00200/23/03/200493032_m.jpg (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=3764607&imageID=200493032)
Brian Wicker
Arkadelphia, AR 71923
b-wicker@<hidden> (b-wicker@<hidden>)



matelot
8th Jan 2007, 10:19
Eloquently put. :ok:

Captain Smithy
8th Jan 2007, 10:31
Hmm. Immature and uninformed comments by immature and uninformed people.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your E-mail, Brian, especially your final point.

Grainger
8th Jan 2007, 10:38
Presumably none of these :mad: individuals ever uses a petrol mower to cut their grass . . . ?

Captain Smithy
8th Jan 2007, 11:07
In most cases, airfield was there first before the houses, you decided to live there knowing full well there's an airfield on your doorstep, fecking live with it. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Tough smeg. You don't like it, move somewhere else. Maybe I am biased, but that's the way I see it.:ugh:

D'oh! Silly smegging Nimbys. I liked one pilot's suggestion on the site that everyone goes and buzzes the houses at low altitude. Don't think the FAA would approve however:\

I have never actually found light aircraft all that noisy. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't. Plus I have lived under the flightpath for EDI all my life... so maybe I'm just used to it. But noise has never been a problem for me.

The Grandparents stay in Kirkliston, literally next door to EDI, and even there the nose doesn't appear to be that much. The occasional distant rumbling, that's all. Plus even they admit that the noise isn't a problem (no, they aren't deaf!).

All a bit immature, really.:yuk:

bwicker
8th Jan 2007, 11:25
D'oh! Silly smegging Nimbys. I liked one pilot's suggestion on the site that everyone goes and buzzes the houses at low altitude. Don't think the FAA would approve however:\



Yeah; i agree in that i would get sooo much enjoyement out of doing that, but in the end all it really does is strengthen their case.

Jerry Coe
8th Jan 2007, 13:50
What a bunch of pompous jackasses and spoiled sh1ts.

I wonder where they do their snowmobiling/ powerboating/ driving/ golfing/ etc etc etc. No doubt they p1$$ other people off while having their fun, and while they are 'anonymous'.

Do they send their kids to tear Florida apart during March break?

Good luck with your fight!

bwicker
8th Jan 2007, 14:05
well this doesn't need to be my fight; this needs to be the fight of ALL of us. In the end this effects us all; there are similar movements in europe popping up from what i've read. So this group has sued four of the aerobatic pilots (while aadmiting that they were flying legally) for the noise pollution. two of the pilots had to quit flying and sell their planes just to pay for the court costs; even with the help and full support of AOPA

VFE
8th Jan 2007, 14:37
I think it's fair to say that (certainly in the UK) those of us involved in general aviation pay more than enough attention to noise pollution. Many is the time I have actually flown with a student who thinks it better to put the aircraft in a potentially dangerous situation in order to comply with noise abatement procedures than to operate safely given an unusual set of circumstances, which is very worrying.

However, the people who started the above organisation sound like grumpy old age pensioners in a specific localised area who perhaps are subjected to more than their fair share of aerobatic flying. One can understand their grievance to a certain point, I mean, they are complaining about recreational aerobatics, not point to point X-country navigation, military flying, or any other air training exercise and if you were being woken up by someone doing aero's over your gaff everyday I think you'd soon lose patience too, I know I would.

I also fail to see how commercial pilot training could ever be affected should they succeed in banning aerobatic flying from certain areas - perhaps someone could enlighten me a little on that front?

Strange how this organisation should arise in America, being such a large country, with huge open expanses of land. If it was a UK organisation I'd understand more!

VFE.

Howard Hughes
8th Jan 2007, 16:06
Had a brief look around their website, that's just plain scary, especially their interpretation of pilots emails...:eek:

bwicker
8th Jan 2007, 21:45
I also fail to see how commercial pilot training could ever be affected should they succeed in banning aerobatic flying from certain areas - perhaps someone could enlighten me a little on that front?


"What we won't tolerate are aerobatics, Sunday flyers, leaf peepers, and flight schools using our airspace as recreational sites or as industrial training areas for their personal profit and amusement at the expense of the private property owners and residents below."-- quoted from their 'who we are' portion of the website.

if it were just aerobatics, i'd agree that they'd have a foot to stand on; but the aerobatic box that was over their homes was moved, and it's clear that they're not just harping about aerobatics anymore to include "sunday flyers"

They're still under the belief that in the states here a property owner owns everything underneath his property all the way to the center of the earth, to the box of sky that stretches forth to infinity above his property. However, it's not the case, there was a supreme court hearing over this matter which was ruled in favor for the aircraft; i believe it was United States VS. Clausby (not quite sure if i'm remembering the name right) which set teh precedent that a homeowner owned only the usuable sky above his property. anything above that (typically 500 feet) is public domain.

These people sit outside their homes with telephoto lenses photographing aircraft at perfectly legal altitudes (they even admit that these pilots are flying with their legal rights, BUT they're still suing them) and then filing reports to the FAA about noise complaints.

allan907
9th Jan 2007, 00:27
Through the wonders of Multi-map and Google Earth I give you the co-ordinates for Lancaster County Road, Harvard, Mass. Their website gives No 6 of this road as their HQ. Have Fun!!
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard2.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/Harvard1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard3.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard4.jpg

Keef
9th Jan 2007, 01:03
What a wacky setup! I sent them a reply to their website. Not a long argument, just a suggestion:

I hope none of you folks use a power mower to cut the grass around your property. Those things make more noise and cause more disturbance than any aeroplane. If I lived nearby, I'd certainly complain every time you used such a device. As for pet dogs, well - they really ARE a noise nuisance!

Naughty me!http://www.userbars.net/forum/images/smiles/ashamed.gif

allan907
9th Jan 2007, 01:28
Doing my Poirot act and stimulating "ze little grey cells", I suspect that the house in question is the one ringed.

In any event, with large secluded blocks the owners of these properties are obviously not without a dollar or two.

Further along Lancaster County Road can be seen a campus of some description (an outlier for Harvard University??). One would therefore conclude that the occupant of No 6 Lancaster County Rd may well be a luminary of said campus. In which case he's probably intelligent (despite the appearances to the contrary as displayed on the web site) and has the financial clout to start legal proceedings etc. He's also a typical Not In My Backyard prat - in any event he's going to be a tough nut to crack. Best to ensure that all pilots stay strictly legal.

PS - He's probably lonely - so be sure to visit him often. :E

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard6.jpg

Buster Hyman
9th Jan 2007, 01:46
Strewth! I'd hate to be a dog in his neighbourhood!http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/tiere/animal-smiley-037.gif

G-CPTN
9th Jan 2007, 03:59
Through the wonders of Multi-map and Google Earth I give you the co-ordinates for Lancaster County Road, Harvard, Mass. Their website gives No 6 of this road as their HQ. Have Fun!!
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard2.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/Harvard1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard3.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/harvard4.jpg
Images not visible and searching Photobucket returned:-

Sorry, the page you requested was not found

terryJones
9th Jan 2007, 12:32
42°31'46.66"N 71°34'43.91"W
That's where MultiMap says No.6 is.
Has anyone sent them a link to this posting yet?
Is there a way of 'cutting and pasting' Google Earth Co-ords? I had to look at the picture then write it down the type it in here...
There must be some military types who can go and play over there.
It is great here, we often have a couple going 'One on One' overhead. The noise is incredible, but the sight is fantastic...
(They must know someone here at Pprune, I keep getting 'server too busy' whilst trying to post...)

Buster Hyman
9th Jan 2007, 21:09
Crikey!

Don't give them a link to Jet Blast! It will confirm all of their fears!!!:eek:

Keef
9th Jan 2007, 22:56
It looks as if that website hasn't been updated since 2004, so it may be moribund.

allan907
11th Jan 2007, 02:01
Hmm. Images still coming up on the thread when I open it. Anybody else got problems with seeing the images???

High Wing Drifter
11th Jan 2007, 09:21
I hope none of you folks use a power mower to cut the grass around your property. Those things make more noise and cause more disturbance than any aeroplane. If I lived nearby, I'd certainly complain every time you used such a device. As for pet dogs, well - they really ARE a noise nuisance! Spot on! I live near Farnborough, Odium and Blackbushe and am therefore subjected to the huge BAP BAP BAP of low flying Chinooks, frequent biz jet depatures and numerous reasonably low light aircraft. Even when the air show is on it is the virtually ceaseless Summer afternoon cacophony of lawn mowers, hedge strimmers and power drills soon ruins an otherwise pleasant 40 winks in the Garden

frostbite
11th Jan 2007, 12:15
Perspective is a funny thing.

There are very few Chinooks fly into Southend, and even fewer fly over my house, so I always rush outside to gawp and enjoy when it does happen.

High Wing Drifter
11th Jan 2007, 13:52
They make the window frames in my bathroom rattle! I forgot to mention the machine gun fire from the ranges. Still the lawn mowers are the real noise.

Perhaps that is just a pilot rather than a gardener talking :ok: