The real reason the RN and RAF are in danger of becoming token forces

[ChristopherRobin]

There's a lot of threads on the forum and elsewhere such as AARSE and the meejaa about the catastrophe that is the navy's downsizing and the RAF's increasing irrelevance where money has been spent in spades (Typhoon) and it's obselescence where money should have been spent but wasn't (transport fleet, SH etc).

Now many people think that this is because of the government's complete lack of knowledge/experience of the military, but it occurred to me in a post-prandial moment of reflection today that this government isn't stupid and neither is Her Majesty's so-called opposition.

Ask yourself this: why would the government really preside over swingeing cuts in some parts of the military and not others? But especially why is the opposition so muted on the subject unless...unless they had an agenda by which they had something to gain too?

No, this isn't the start of a conspiracy theory, but think on this. Who has the type of (nuclear) aircraft carriers their lordships in the Admiralty would give their spines for - assuming they had some of course? If you said the yanks, get the conehead hat on. If you said the French then top marks.
Secondly, who has the first-class medical facilities and specialist CRBN detection kit that will be needed in the 21st century and is developing serious capability through solid investment in uber-UAVs such as Global Hawk (to be known, of course as the Euro Hawk)? Prat at the back? No it isn't the Irish, it is our old friends Ze Germans.

Now for your third and final question: who is the only nation in Europe that has troops that are crazy enough, up for it enough, and capable enough to mix it with Johhny Taliban and the Mahdi Army despite overwhelming odds, zero support from their government and mounting casualties?

It's us.

So what?

Well, David Cameron's not exactly eurosceptic, nor is Gordon Brown, and as for Mingis - forget it.
The reason why none of these contributors to global warming actually say anything is because this, if nothing else is, must be the biggest combat indicator that Britain's full integration into a United States of Europe is not only not to far off, but has already been tacitly accepted by all parties. No doubt the parties all think it's a great idea, but a tough sell to the uneducated untermensch like us who cannot see the bright shining 'truth', so like all tough sells, don't sell it in one go, but make lots and lots of little sells, in this case starting with the military.

Britain being invaded? No problem, because the French will sail to save us! Falklands in danger of being invaded? No chance, because our GCHQ intercepts and German Eurohawks flown from Ascension will warn us! Somebody need their aarses given a good kicking on the ground? Stand aside cheese eaters and step forward the British Army's thin red line of 'eroes.

Think about it. Watch the news. Watch your MP and watch the parties. If the opposition isn't making hay, then they're either totally, unforgiveably crap (possible) or they're letting someone else achieve their aims, for whom they can conveniently blame later. If the government is getting away with it then why?

This year marks the 300th anniversary of the Union. When the USA was 200 they landed the first spacecraft on Mars. What have we done? What are we doing? F**k all, because the government doesn't want patriotism. That is not conducive to compliance or apathy. What has the government or opposition said against the possibility of the Scottish Nats getting into Holyrood and tabling a referendum on independence? Nothing - because it won't make any difference when it's just another state in the US of E. Why did John Prescott want a regional assembly in the North East? So the whole country would be primed with regional assemblies along the lines of America's state governors. How will the Northern Ireland issue finally be solved? By both North and South being states in the US of E.

This is the beginning of the Britain's death of a thousand cuts and we are being offered up as the thin end of the wedge. My prediction in an envelope is a european defence treaty that will supersede NATO within the next 2 years and it will be along the lines of: Brits - blood and guts; everyone else - everything else.

Many people have posted comments along the lines of "you took the Queen's shilling so shut up or PVR", but boll*cks to that. I'm a citizen soldier and what's happening is not only wrong but will end up in British deaths when the frogs don't turn up to give air support, so that gives me a vote as well as a voice.

If you love your country the way it is then it's time we in the military stood up and were counted. How? All those who are leaving the forces in the next 18 months (ie prior to the next general election) put themselves up for election either as independents, in a party (doesn't matter which, they're all the same) or we form our own party. Me, I'm going to have a tilt at the second option unless there's support for doing the third.

After all I'd hate to throw a political party and no one turn up.

So what say you men of Britain? Are you with me or against me?

[Cannonfodder]

Bloody good speech mate.
You know what, I think you are right........
Where do I sign up.:ok:

[SamCaine]

Well said Chris. Follow me, I'm behind you all the way. :ok:

[prometheusracer]

I'd like to voice my support for your third option. That'll at least provide an alternative to the voters of UK. I'm not a retiree, I'm afriad, but have just managed to skid to a halt, preventing myself jumping on this sinking boat that is the armed forces.

Bring back the Forces!
Bring back the NHS et al!
Down with paying for the USA's mistakes!
Down with Europe!

[h73kr]

If we need a down-sized services, and it can be justified, then so be it. If only we concentrated on defence, rather than meddling in other peoples countries, we'd probably be fine.

[Lazer-Hound]

Chaps, take off your tin-foil hats. The idea of a US of E dies when the French and Dutch (both founder members) kicked out the proposed European constitution in 2005. What we're seeing with the current round of cuts and overstretch is good old fashioned Whitehall incompetence.

[UAV689]

tell you what, if I was in charge no department of mine would spend £7 million on some company come in and put black tape on desks in a bid to make us work better...they must of p**ssed themselves all the way to the bank..
and today I hear that the EU wants us to abolish pints 'cos they ain't metric...on second thoughts drinking liters might not be so bad ;)
sign me up to this new party, shotgun the cabinet position of minister for common sense!!

[ChristopherRobin]

Help for the deserving poor. Scroungers stand by. Business - be honest and plenty of it. Low taxes. Get businessmen who know how to run a big business like the NHS to sit at the hand of the minister (and not Patricia Hewitt). Tough on crime - 3 strikes and you're out so start building more prisons. Rehabilitate drug abusers and fry drug pushers - auto life sentences. Death penalty for child abusers, rapists and murderers, or chemical castration.

Chain gangs in pink suits for young offenders instead of ASBOs, civic pride, rewards for achievement in schools, sportsdays where not everyone gets a prize, free market economics and trust in people wanting to run successful businesses without interference from politicians who don't know anything about it. But that said, more politicians from business and while we're at it, no one should be allowed to enter politics before the age of 40 so they can live in the real world first.

But really ratty, many of the things you have mentioned are no business of the government whatsoever in a free country. You're only asking how I would deal with them because you're so used to the nanny state we currently have, and I don't condemn you for that - well done for reminding me it isn't just about defence.

Oh and on the environment? Go nuclear short-term, invest in fusion long term!

To the hustings!

[Exrigger]

Well going by the comments and suggestions on these and other threads, I would hazard a guess they nobody could do any where as bad a job as the current incumbents. It amazes me that virtually everyone on the street knows what is needed for the items you mentioned, but the current lot have no idea, interest or the mentality to cope with the job they chose and 'we' voted them in to do.
The right answer would be lets throw money at it but not actually control what the money will actually be used for or who it goes to. A bit like all the relief and charity work in less well of places, since Bob Geldorf raised over £27 million for Africa with comments like a pound could set up an African family for a year, then why has this money not made one jot of difference and we are still being asked for more. It is down to the same reason, throw money at it and run away quickly while making sure 'we are alright jack'.

[ChristopherRobin]

Hey I got my first heckler! Brilliant!

[serf]

Christopher,
perhaps you could move to Scotland and fight the election in May, proportional representation - you dont even have to be first past the post - perhaps if you stood in Moray (lots of services peeps) and had a services agenda, you could get in !!
From the Scottish parly:
'The Scottish Parliament is made up of 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs). There are 73 constituency MSPs and 56 Regional MSPs, 7 for each of the 8 regions – see map below). Each person in Scotland is represented by one constituency MSP and seven regional MSPs.
The system used for elections to the Scottish Parliament is a form of proportional representation known as the Additional Member System (AMS). Using this system, each voter has two votes. The first is cast for a constituency MSP, via the same First Past the Post system. The second vote is used to elect the additional (regional) members. The additional members are elected at a regional level to ensure that, as far as possible, the share of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament reflects the share of votes cast for each party'

www.scottish.parliament.uk

[ChristopherRobin]

I'd really love to Serf, but QRs state that I can't do anything political until I leave, so I'll miss the scottish elections, but might be in with a chance for a general election if Gordo doesn't go to the country until 2008!

[SASless]

So what say you men of Britain? Are you with me or against me?

Straight out of the George Bush school of politics!

Funny thing how it goes down well now but chokes when it comes to other issues.

Can there not be some middle ground?


(....all that being said....I suspect the original poster is closer to the truth than we know!)

The scary thought would be having French troops on one flank and Italians on the other.....never mind the enemy to your front. How does one count on the other nations showing up when it is not their ox being gored?

[FJJP]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you can gain a release from the Forces to stand for Parliament...

[Widger]

Winnie the pooh,

sorry but I think your rant is way off the mark. There are a lot of threads on Pprune slating the Government for this and that but the truth is...the MOD gets a budget and it is the MOD that decides how to spend it. Yes, it is true that Iraq and Afghanistan are expensive and the MOD should be getting an appropriate amount of MORE money to cover those costs. However, it was the MOD and the two winged master race that decided that they needed 5 million Typhoon to beat off the red hoards and that decision is now coming back to haunt the RAF. The problem is that procurement takes far too long.

Things are not rosy in any of the force and I am finding it very hard to look on the bright side. However, if I look at the positives, the RN has bitten the bullet and sacrificed, SHAR, and a whole load of escorts and is probably going to cull a whole load of Warfare Officers.....well what is good about that? Well the good is:

If you are a Marine, you now have excellent kit and some good platforms. Albion, Bulwark, Ocean, all the Bay Class etc. Life has not been this rosy for the Green Lids since the 50s. If you are an aviator, the focus of the RN is on aviation. CVF WILL happen (not as quick as it should). The efforts of Alan West and a whole host of others have ensured that our younger members will have an RN to be proud of, with REAL global projection. The first stage of that is 800 and 801 forming as GR7/9 squadrons, a potent force, in action NOW producing the goods. What would SHAR be doing now?? Probably nothing, so yes there is risk, but the RN FW community are probably better off now without SHAR. CVF with JCA and MASC will be magnificent, yes there will be heartache along the way and the management probably have not been very good and putting everyone in the picture about this, Portsmouth may go...so what...rather a big cut now than death by a thousand cuts. We will always want more and bigger but, we have a budget and we need to stick to it.

Am I a realist or naive? Good question. I hope my optimism will be rewarded this year with a confirmation of the order for HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Now, maybe the RAF need to do some more navel gazing!

[Ivor Fynn]

Roghead,

Here, here. The country has gone to the dogs over the last few years, Govt spending our hard earned cash on politically correct euro trash and not the people who were born and bred here. We all pay our taxes only to see the majority of it wasted. Its a real shame to see a decline in living standards for the average UK tax payer, whilst johny migrant, peter prisoner and those on benefit see a rise in living standards at our expense.

Ivor

[brakedwell]

Am I a realist or naive? Good question. I hope my optimism will be rewarded this year with a confirmation of the order for HMS Queen Elizabeth.

I thought the Queen Elizabeth was already plying the high seas with a load of well heeled Americans on board. When control freak Brown takes over the sinking ship, HMS Titannic comes to mind.

[Widger]

Prometheus,

Whilst I admire your commitment, there is almost certainl an entry in QRs about this action and I will not be a part of it! :=

[Wyler]

Watched Gordon Brown interview at the weekend and read articles various in the Telegraph. He sees the reslolution of conflict from an economic/discussion perspective and not a military one. He will be more than willing to negotiate with Syria and Iran rather than the G. Bush 'Surge' option. Therefore, Mr Brown sees the Military as a last ditch option and, judging by the disaster that is Iraq, he will be loathed to order the use of Force for the forseeable future. The same would apply to Dave and his Tories as well. Consequently, I envisage a staged withdrawal from present conflicts and the shelving of military options for some time. That will affect funding.
He will bolster home grown 'security' because that makes the average troll on the street feel better and is good for votes.
Until we get a viable oppostion and a swing towards the right, nothing will change and, as I have said many times before, the European, daylight working, all holidays at home, Defence Force is just around the corner.

[Archimedes]

Mmmm. I think QRs probably does have a line or two that covers staging a coup... :eek:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Alternatively - you could say "down by the bow and sinking fast." It depresses me no end how the RN has lost capabilities in the last five years.

If you are a Marine, you now have excellent kit and some good platforms. Albion, Bulwark, Ocean, all the Bay Class etc. Life has not been this rosy for the Green Lids since the 50s. If you are an aviator, the focus of the RN is on aviation.

Both groups should try to avoid hostile nations with a Navy or an Air Force for the nest eight to ten years.

The amphibious vessels mentioned above may be good at putting forces ashore, but lack the means to defend themselves - hence escorts (ie frigates and destroyers) are needed. See this old article by Tim Ripley (http://www.global-defence.com/1997/DefencePower.html).

Also see the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152) where all these things were discussed - not just SHAR.

Odd that the Government seem to consider it wise to plan to use troops to defend energy infrastructure in the UK, but seem to ignore the possible need to protect shipping elsewhere. Things will happen in the Gulf in the next couple of years. The nuclear stand off my lead to an Israeli or US strike, Tehran may decide to hit back at the international community for imposing sanctions, or (as seems likely) Iran and Saudi Arabia will come to blows.

Shipping in the Gulf will need to be defended - which might be tricky with a Fleet considerably smaller than we need. Admiral West said we need "about thirty" frigates and destroyers. Have we got about thirty? No!

What if Tehran decides that seaborne resupply to forces in Iraq will cease? Having to defend convoys for a thousand miles, looking out for submarines, mines, shore based missiles, missile armed attack craft, aircraft (some with anti ship missiles).....

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I think the gamble is that somebody else will cover the requirement; probably the nation with rather a lot of stars in its Flag.

[brakedwell]

So true GBZ. This disasterous "government" won't be around to reap the whirlwind they have sown. Blair and Cherie wil be raking in a fortune on the after dinner speech circuit and "Prudence" Brown will be sulking in the Highlands - and we will be reliant on Uncle Sam.

[ChristopherRobin]

Thanks friend.

[ChristopherRobin]

Blimey, you will be asking for his hand in marriage next. Although legal it is not compulsorily.

What's the matter Ratty? Does being jealous make you unable to spell? Don't worry rats, there's enough of me to go around!

[Arthur's Wizard]

I was thinking along similar lines during the last election.

If a good percentate of people in the Armed Forces registered their proxy vote in a particular constituency, say Sedgefield for example, and then a willing individual ran for election as an MP in that constituency, imagine the fun that could be had by 100,000 members of HM finest voting for their own man/woman.

The leader of the Labour Party losing his seat to the 'Forces Candidate' would be one hell of a way to get your point accross:E

[Yarpy]

Christopher Robin is no child.;)

Set me thinking. The country I grew up in was self governing, well policed, well educated, industrious, un regulated, private, free, largely indigenous and rich in heritage.:)

The country now is externally regulated, policed by ineffective cowards, dumbed down and scarcely literate, reduced to a service culture, bureaucratic, intrusive, restrictive, full of immigrants and poisoned with political correctness.:ugh:

Why? A generation of egotistically bad politicians have sold out to government by the EU without any democratic mandate. My parents had a vote on the Common Market by my generation never had a say in the European Super state.:suspect:

I dream of turning on the six o'clock news to find a nice Army General sitting in Downing Street. :)

I would like to hear that the Cabinet has been ousted, the police are back on the streets, children are learning to read and write again, the bureaucracy has been scrapped, databases have been wiped, law and order restored, the people given a vote on withdrawal from the EU and the troops have come home to police the borders.:)

Other countries can look after their own interests so why can't we?

Oh, and I would kick Al Fayed back to Egypt whilst I am about it.
:}