Motion: This Government is imperilling the UK

[Lyneham Lad]

OK, call me naive but................

The motion raised is that the current Government of the United Kingdom is by the nature of it's policies and funding of the Armed Services in all respects, either by design or by consequence, putting the future safety and defence of the Realm in jeopardy.

All those in agreement - do we raise a petition, wait for a coup d'etap or emigrate?

Seriously, how on earth do we mitigate against further damage to the UK's ability to defend and feed itself? Clearly waiting for Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to do something constructive is sadly entirely a waste of time. Perhaps it is down to Ppruners to take the lead..........

Oh no, a black Reliant Robin has just pulled up outside - I may be gone for some time......

Edited to put back carriage breaks for readability

[will fly for food 06]

I ve been racking my brains for months thinking how i may help resolve this situation in some way. Firstly i support the troops and would buy a beer if i met one in a bar and i if meet one in uniform i would shake their hand.

An online petition does sound like a step forward.

[newt]

I second the motion !!

Can I be in charge of the firing squad?

Who would be first on the Ppruners list?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Good grief..............wot a load of old bolleaux.

If you are in and don't like it stop whinging, PVR and f@ck off and organise your coup:ugh: and leave the rest of us to crack on with the jobs in hand.

If you are a civvie please feel free to sympathise but please leave it at that as all serving folk are happy enough to take the queens shilling so must be content with their lot:ok:

[will fly for food 06]

I have PVR'd.

[Lyneham Lad]

If you are in and don't like it stop whinging, PVR and f@ck off
ABIW - such an erudite turn of phrase. A glass of red too many this evening perchance? :hmm:

Do you really consider that the current policies of this Government and their funding of the Armed Services are NOT damaging the ability of this country (now and in the future) to defend and feed itself?

[ShyTorque]

If I were still serving, I would be a little careful about posting on this topic before reading MAFL, or whatever it might be called these days. Seriously. :=

[nigegilb]

Chill out ST, LL said coup d'etap which in case you are not aware is a parachute training school in Pau, France. Besides the guys on arrse call for a coup every week. It is standard practice in the third term of a Labour Govt.:eek:

[An Teallach]

All those in agreement - do we raise a petition, wait for a coup d'etap or emigrate?

Coup D'Etat? Don't make me laugh! The Armed Forces aren't strong enough nowadays. With a surprise attack and a following wind, the AF may be able to take Devon and perhaps even hold it for a couple of weeks. :}

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

LL

Try reading all my post fella. I take it you are happy enought to spend your wage packet at the end of each month..............yes? Then stop bleating and crack on with it as the rest of us do:ok:

Of course if it's that bad, as I suggest you could always PVR.........let us know when you do:yuk:

[maximo ping]

ABIW; now thinking as far as a month ahead? You'll go far m'lad, just the sort of strategic thinking that we've been missing for so long...:ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Max,

Sorry fella but after 32 years in you are going to have to expand on your post for this old chap:rolleyes:

[maximo ping]

Fair point mate, one does get used to the same myopic point of view from those above, and we do all have the chance to vote with our feet.
Doesn't mean you have to do their ill-considered work for them though...

[ShyTorque]

Chill out ST, LL said coup d'etap which in case you are not aware is a parachute training school in Pau, France. Besides the guys on arrse call for a coup every week. It is standard practice in the third term of a Labour Govt.:eek:

Yes, but I don't think this government can spell, either.
On Arrse, they were possibly asking for a chicken house.

P.s. I saw the light and chilled out many years ago, but this government will always be on the lookout for someone else to hang for blame.

[ratty1]

but this government will always be on the lookout for someone else to hang for blame.

Well they started with Saddam I guess.

[ShyTorque]

I think they were still blaming the conservatives well into their second term as "the previous government" until it was pointed out that they themselves were the previous government.

I blame the voters.

[Whirlygig]

Don't blame me luv - I didn't vote for them!

Cheers

Whirls

[ratty1]

You can also blame those that couldn't be bothered to get off their plump behinds and vote.......................Also Tone made sure that most of the Army couldn't vote due to the rule change in Proxy voting. Very sneaky.

[MaxReheat]

Lyneham Lad
This must be tele-apathy. After reading so many articles in recent weeks documenting not only the insideous neutering of the UK's armed forces but also the general decline in the nation's overall moral and social structures, brought about by this disgraceful man, Bliar, I was going to kick off a thread along similar lines but thought it too radical to raise the matter of 'coups'.
However, when I was a stude back in the mid/late seventies and the nation was on the point of collapse under yet another hopeless Labour administration, I recall that there was a lot of 'talk' at the time about the great disquiet in the Services about the way the country was heading which was, at the time, directly down the tubes. Bear in mind that the Services were doing quite well materiel-wise (though not in pay) and the Cold War was in full swing so no shortage of Chieftains and Type 42s. I played a rugby match at Camberley and in post-match chat in the Mess I asked what the view amongst the then staff college students was. Understandably, the deepest thoughts of the Army's brightest weren't all disclosed to a visiting student but it seemed quite clear that 'change' had been discussed in some quarters.
While the economy might be holding up, according to Broon, everything else about this country has declined into a morasse of New Labour mediocraty under Bliar. His legacy will be the utter and complete devastation of everything that used to be worth living in this country for. I hope that the ballot box will do the job, sooner rather than later.

[FJJP]

Coups are a feature of third world countries.

Oh, Oh.....

[chevvron]

Does anyone have the suspicion which I've long harboured that there was someting 'fishy' with the last GE results; I know opinion polls said basically Labour win, but not by such a large margin. Could the results have been 'manipulated' in any way by the winning party?

[An Teallach]

You've been spotted, you mutinous dogs!

Armed forces face Brown's fury
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:29am GMT 07/01/2007

Defence chiefs believe that the Armed Forces are now viewed by senior Labour figures as a "Tory organisation", leaving them at risk of incurring the wrath of Gordon Brown, the Chancellor.

Senior officers fear that relations with Labour are so bad that the Chief of the Defence Staff will have to issue official orders at senior level, banning the leaking of stories damaging to the Government.

Months of unofficial briefings by senior commanders have sparked increasing fears that the Ministry of Defence will be left the "poor relations" of Government spending, with defence budgets slashed during this year's Comprehensive Spending Review.

The crisis has been fuelled in recent months by a deluge of leaked documents and a series of bitter attacks on the Government's defence policy by senior military figures, complaining that the Armed Forces are under-resourced but over-committed on operations around the world.

Defence chiefs are also understood to be deeply concerned that the leaking of documents will appear to the wider Labour Party as part of a "corporate strategy" to extract more money from the Treasury ahead of the review.

Defence chiefs believe that the military's fondness for traditional values and conservative tendencies have left them with very few friends within the Labour hierarchy. Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.

Only John Reid, who served as both a minister for the Armed Forces and as defence secretary, is understood to have had a fruitful working relationship with the military.

Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said that it was "disgusting but predictable" that Labour should treat the problems within defence as a party political issue rather than a national issue.

The recent level of leaked stories from within the MoD is regarded as so "grave" that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, plans to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.

It can also be revealed that MoD officials are threatening to launch leak inquires similar to that which exposed Dr David Kelly, the scientist who committed suicide after claiming that the Government had "sexed up" its dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Documents leaked last week showed that half of the Royal Navy fleet is to be mothballed, that there will be no officer promotions in the Navy for five years and that the Army has been forced to raise the maximum age of new recruits from 26 to 33 in an attempt to stave off a recruiting crisis.

Over the past few months, in what is called the military's "autumn of discontent", virtually every area of the Services, from the treatment of injured soldiers to the appalling state of accommodation, has come under public scrutiny.

Details of plans to cancel parachute training for four years as part of a £1 billion cost-cutting programme were leaked to The Sunday Telegraph last month. The officer who provided details said he felt "morally obliged to act because the Government was not listening to the military".

A senior MoD source said: "The leaking going on is severely damaging and there are people within the Treasury who now view the military as pro-Tory and that is going to have an impact on budgets. We all understand the frustration of those who leak documents to the press, but they ought to consider the consequences of their actions."

Patrick Mercer, the Tory spokesman for homeland security who was an infantry commanding officer, said: "The Armed Forces are not a political organisation but they have simply had enough of being treated with contempt by this Government."

Mr Fox said: "The reason that leaks are appearing is because of the build-up of frustration and anger in the Armed Forces about the way in which Labour are increasingly willing to commit our forces to combat without giving the support they require.

"These are men and women who are prepared to pay the ultimate price for this country's security but who have been betrayed by a Government which is possibly the most self-serving and party political in our history."

[Exrigger]

AT wrote:
Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.

I think this is pot kettle black as the government is the biggest waster of taxpayers money with the NHS a close second, particulary if you look at money used against results.

Also does it not strike you as funny that this concern over the leaks that are straining relationships between the government and services brings about a leak of a possible plan to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.

[chevvron]

Agree with exrigger; the government's solution to all problems (apart from MOD) is throw money at it; it comes out of taxpayers pockets, that's why we're taxed to the hilt; any further shortfall is made up by cutting the defence budget.
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Strange how this government views the military as so 'pro-Tory'. Back when I were a mere whipper snapper at RAF Locking I was on guard the week when the present government came to power and of all the personnel in the guardroom I was the only one not to vote Labour.

Perhaps what the military is is not 'pro-Tory' but 'pro-continual useful existence'. I know I'd like to believe that if another Falklands were to happen tomorrow that we in the military would be able to swing into action and do what the general public would expect us to do. Unfortunately we are being continually hamstrung by the holders of the purse and the action of 'us' biting the hand that fails to feed us was inevitable.

I don't fully blame the government for their inability to understand the military psyche though. Labour is a party joined at the hip with the CS and it may be that the Labour party believes all in public service display the same attitudes, military personnel included.

[mbga9pgf]

Agree with exrigger; the government's solution to all problems (apart from MOD) is throw money at it; it comes out of taxpayers pockets, that's why we're taxed to the hilt; any further shortfall is made up by cutting the defence budget.
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!


Problem is, it is not coming from the publics pockets. In fact, most has either has been borrowed, or they have created a much greater money supply (M4) by printing more notes. All at a time of prolonged growth, when they should actually be paying it off. We currently pay around 28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government. The armed forces budget is only greater than this by 4 Bn. Great hey? Great legacy to leave the nation.

I would seriously worried about this nation's economy as a whole and how the hell this nation is going to function after global IRs return to the long-term norm.

[Roghead]

Coup D'Etat? Don't make me laugh! The Armed Forces aren't strong enough nowadays.
Probably, and sadly that is true. However, one has to look at the "opposition" and as our glorious Government couldn't organise a gang bang in a brothel, it's just possible that even our neutered senior officers could mount a reasonable challenge to them........ Couldn't they?:rolleyes:

[Exrigger]

mbga9pgf wrote:
Problem is, it is not coming from the publics pockets. In fact, most has either has been borrowed, or they have created a much greater money supply (M4) by printing more notes. All at a time of prolonged growth, when they should actually be paying it off. We currently pay around 28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government.

Ultimately it still comes out of our taxes, hidden and direct, to pay for the governments mis-management of the countries finances, this how they pay the '28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government'. They cannot sustain producing money as written above as they will spiral into recession/bankruptcy, hence lets find excuses to increase taxes to help limit the debt damage that we have caused.

[Exrigger]

As an aside to all the threads that have comments re the government and if the chancellor takes over from Bliar before the next election what difference this will make to the services and country, I thought that if a leader steps down/dies that the deputy leader takes over. Where did we vote for somebody else to take over, surely there should be a referendum or an immediate election. Or does this government now believe it is above all this and can do what they like, sorry I have just answered my own question.

[Lyneham Lad]

Given the widely reported antipathy of G Brown (and his Treasury minions) to the Armed Forces, if we think funding and shortages etc are bad now, just wait until he steps into Bliar's shoes.............:eek:

Possible PM Brown scenario:-
He will retain Trident and it's successor in order to keep the UK's seat at the top table but everything else (future carriers, JSF, later batches of Typhoon etc etc) will be savagely pruned. He will extricate the UK from Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as he can. Not for ideological reasons but to justify further 'savings' on the defence budget so that more money can be thrown at the NHS and education. We will, as already postulated by a very senior Naval chap, end up with a coastal defence force and little else (apart from Trident).

......takes shelter, stands-by for incoming.

[Polikarpov]

Nothing left but Trident: any minor infringement on the UK's sovereignty anywhere in the world to be met with a nuclear response.

Interesting defence strategy!

:ugh:

[alex_holbrook]

As a response to the first post, I'm not so concerned about the damage that anyone else could do to this country, although what Labour are doing to the Forces is simply criminal, as I am about the damage that the government is doing to this country. What they've caused and created in this country will take years, maybe even decades to rectify. I for one am gradually becoming slightly embarrassed about living here.

[An Teallach]

All this talk of Gay Gordon being the next PM of the UK may be slightly misplaced. The Scottish elections next year may well show contituencies finally wake up where for years you could put up a chimp with a Labour rosette and see it get elected.

As the SNP is the natural opposition here, Gordon may be the last UK Prime Minister!

[BillHicksRules]

Chevron,

Does anyone have the suspicion which I've long harboured that there was someting 'fishy' with the last GE results; I know opinion polls said basically Labour win, but not by such a large margin. Could the results have been 'manipulated' in any way by the winning party?

So what if it was?

Do you really think the other lot would have done anything the least bit different?

Cheers

BHR

[BEagle]

Gay Gordon......

Priceless!

[norilsk]

I seem to remember some serious planning going into a coup back in the 1970s. It had a strong colour of purple!

[RNAV8R]

Please, please, please God - let this be the final nail in the coffin of the current administration. I was in a (pompey) pub this evening and a civilian friend asked me when the military would have the balls to take over running the country!!!!!!!!
What on earth is going on so that the administration are so far out of touch that the ordinary man in the street is asking when there will be a coup - not suggesting this is a good idea, but at some point in the near future the balloon will burst - sign all the petitions you can guys, we MUST at least make some attempt to let these buffoons that what they are doing is foolish, short sighted, near termist - but most of all DANGEROUS.
God bless this country - his blessing, may be needed!

[MarkD]

Online petitions don't do a damn thing in my view. More MPs with time in the service do more - in all parties. Stand for nomination at all levels - especially for local councils with military bases. To my mind Ashdown got far more attention because of his service record than his ability as a politician probably merited.

I note that in the US, most of the Democratic Congressional gains in the recent election have been made by men with records in police, CIA, FBI or the Armed Forces (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07lizza.html?ref=washington) who were specially sought out by Democratic recruiters (NYT, free reg required).

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

the scientist who committed suicide shouldn't that be 'the scientist who "committed suicide" '?

[BigBusDriver]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/savethenavy/#detail

For those uncomfortable with openly calling for a coup, this one seems to be gaining some momentum.

[ProfessionalStudent]

More fuel to the fire...

[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=427075&in_page_id=1770"]

MoD spends £2.3billion on new offices while families of soldiers live in 'squalor'
JAMES SLACK

More than £2.3billion has been spent on a palatial headquarters for Ministry of Defence staff while soldiers and their families suffer in squalid living conditions.

The full cost of refurbishing and running the Whitehall office provoked fury from within the armed forces, along with demands from MPs for a financial inquiry.

The huge outlay - to be met by taxpayers over the next 30 years - involved the demolition of three miles of walls to create an 'highly innovative' open plan HQ, with restored marble and oak features.

The 3,100 civil servants have luxury office chairs, worth more than £1,000 each, three large plasma screens on each of the 10 floors, a gym, restaurant, coffee bars and 'quiet rooms' for relaxation.

The building also contains 3,500 oak doors for a total cost of £3m, or up to £1,200 each, and a 'terrazzo' marble and stone floor It contrasts starkly with the disgraceful conditions of ordinary troops, whose families live in ageing barracks blighted by leaking roofs, broken windows, faulty wiring and damp.

The overall cost of the HQ is almost half of the value of the long-overdue £5 billion renovation project a shamed Government was forced into promising them last week, albeit over the next ten years.

Colonel Tim Collins, who led an infantry battalion into Iraq in 2003, said civil servants took 'every opportunity to feather their own nests' at the expense of the armed forces.

He told the Daily Mail: 'That is why they are sitting in £1,000 chairs, while soldiers live in rat-infested quarters.

'What these people need to remember is that soldiers have to go and fight and die, they do not. They get a choice of where they live, soldiers go where they are sent.'

Soldiers and their families swamped Army messageboards to complain at the revelation.

Gail Richardson, 34, a soldier’s wife who lives in a damp and cold prefab in Bulford, Wiltshire, said the high cost of the building 'smacked of hypocrisy'.

The Tories called for an investigation by the National Audit Office (NAO), the spending watchdog, into the private finance refurbishment project.

The party said it was concerned that the scheme -where the government repays the cost of refurbishment and maintenance over 30 years - was not value for money, even allowing for inflation during that period.

Shadow Defence Secretary Liam Fox said the cost for the building 'stretched credibility' at a time when British troops were short of vital equipment, including armoured vehicles.

He added: 'It will infuriate ordinary servicemen and women who are paying taxes to subsidise the lavish headquarters of the MoD when they themselves have to live in sub-standard accommodation.'

The government has previously admitted to a cost of £746m for the private finance deal.

But when inflation is taken into account, actual payments over the 30-year period - as revealed in a parliamentary answer - will be £2.35 billion.

Luxurious fixtures and fittings include 3,120 European oak doors bought from Swift Horsman, a specialist supplier, while a further 380 original oak doors were restored at a cost of £1,200 each.

Matt Roberts of Swift Horsman. 'Everything was to the highest standard. Each of the original oak doors had to be restored by hand.'

The Herman Miller Aeron chairs - the kind used by David Dimbleby on the BBC’s Question Time - have been described as 'the most comfortable office chairs in the world'.

One senior officer said: 'I've worked in a good few headquarters in my 16-year service career and these are certainly the best. It's plush and incredibly pleasant.'

It comes at a time when, in addition to the squalid living conditions in barracks, the Armed Forces are facing a shortage of funds.

The government admitted that almost half the Royal Navy’s 44 warships might have to be mothballed to save cash.

The £2.3 billion could have funded the annual salary bill of 160,800 newly-qualified soldiers earning £14,300-a-year, 82 Apache Longbow gunship helicopters, 13,772,455 sets of bullet-proof body armour, costing £167 each or 766 Challenger II tanks, at a cost of £3m each.

It also emerged the Queen could lose a third of the soldiers who guard her at Buckingham Palace because they are badly needed to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Army cutbacks mean the men will be sent to the troublespots to reduce the amount of time troops are spending on the frontline.

The move could affect around 700 of the 2,000 or so troops who are tied up on palace ceremonial duties in London and at Windsor Castle.

The MoD said there was no overspend on the headquarters and the deal had been praised in an audit by the NAO in 2002.

A spokesman said: 'The modernisation has been a huge success, allowing us to dispose of five other central London buildings and save £18m a year - money that is being reinvested in the front line and other essential areas, including new accommodation for service personnel and their families.'



Must get a job there. Fancy me one of those fancy-dan chairs...:ugh:

[GlosMikeP]

Gay Gordon......

Priceless!
Try this then. When I was at NATO the French referred to this government as 'The Pink Parliament'.

[Antique Driver]

A Coup?? With what? !!!!!

[Yarpy]

Coups are a feature of third world countries.

Third world countries hold coups when their leaders become too autocratic.

That means we can have one too

[mbga9pgf]

Third world countries hold coups when their leaders become too autocratic.
That means we can have one too


Third world countries arent in as much national debt as we are either!

[Roghead]

one has to look at the "opposition" and as our glorious Government couldn't organise a gang bang in a brothel, it's just possible that even our neutered senior officers could mount a reasonable challenge to them........ Couldn't they? Is that deja-vu, or am I just repeating myself?
Antique Driver- A Coup?? With what?
What's needed? :(

[Antique Driver]

I really do hope that this thread is tongue-in-cheek, I can't believe people are openly talking about what, in my mind, amounts to treason.

We are supposed to be loyal,professional military personnel who swore an oath to defend this country.

If you don't like what this goverment is doing to the military then do something about it through the proper channels - get off your arses and vote or speak to your MP.

If you can't do this and feel so strongly then why don't you just p:mad: ss off and leave - I don't want to be serving alongside a bunch of conspirators.

Don't embarrass yourselves or our proud military any further and remove this thread asap!!!

[Lyneham Lad]

I really do hope that this thread is tongue-in-cheek,

Well, of course it is. :E How could us loyal citizens even think such perfidious thoughts.

[Roghead]

We are supposed to be loyal,professional military personnel who swore an oath to defend this country
Exactly old boy.
We've read your previous posts, so we know your history now.... pity really, you seemed to be OK:E