Freeze On Navy Promotions For 5 Years

[allan907]

Headline item on Radio 4 this morning. What the bl**dy hell is the UK government up to??

A 5 year freeze on promotions will do wonders for morale. Or perhaps that's the intention. Get rid of the people above Lt Cdr 'cos they've not got any ships left to deal with.

:mad: :mad: :ugh: :ugh:

[R 21]

Sky are saying it is for SENIOR Navy Officers. Im sure a few less Admirals etc about the place is no great harm to the lads?
:confused:

[henry crun]

The Telegraph says it is not just admirals.

Quote "An official Navy document passed to this newspaper states that all promotions to the rank of Lieutenant Commander or above will be halted until 2012."

[nigegilb]

It appears the MoD does not have the moral rectitude to pay redundancy money. Cheap way of getting rid of the brightest.

[SirToppamHat]

Link to article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/06/navy06.xml

Not sure what the current position is in the RN. Whilst the RAF has always (AFAIK) promoted to Sqn Ldr (Lt Cdr/Maj) competitively, my understanding is that some elements of the other Services have promoted to this rank automatically based on time served.

It will be interesting to see precisely what the official line is on this, and whether it spreads to the other Services. If so, then I would think you can say goodbye to an awful lot of lieutenants and equivalents. In my world, these are the people we are short of.

A bunch of us were discussing some of the current options (scare stories!) yesterday, and came to the conclusion that at least some of what is currently appearing in the media may be related to the annual spending rounds - almost as if the Service Chiefs are engaging in brinkmanship to see who can frighten the politicians most!

STH

[Jimlad1]

Chaps

This months Navy News has an abbreviated section on this lifted from the RN Intranet. If you read it, it makes clear that this paving the way for a large reduction in personnel - most likely to 20,000 matelots plus RM by 2015.

[Tiger_mate]

My trade stopped recruiting for 2 years in the early 80’s. The consequence of this was felt for many years after that, and although time healed, it was a stupid policy based upon logic that defied me.

This announcement is worthy of an April 1st joke. The consequences will be felt for many years to come and will promote (pardon the pun) an exodus of PVR, cross service transfer, and indeed international transfer with almost immediate effect. Inevitably it will be the guys (& girls) that you would want to go to war with that will leave; leaving behind……well you can guess the rest!

I guess our antipodean friends will be rubbing their hands in glee and the expertise pool now available with minimal training costs.

Assuming that nothing happens by accident, this may well be a cynical way of avoiding redundancy payments. Sympathies lay with those that no longer have their expected career path, for I know exactly what that feels like.

[nigegilb]

It has been suggested on ARRSE that this should be looked at in terms of constructive dismissal.

[mary_hinge]

Not sure where all this leads, who does, but see also:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236345.stm

Recruitment age for Army raised.

[Melchett01]

I take my hat of to this government. They have managed to achieve what Hitler tried and failed to do - the systematic destruction of the armed forces and undermining the will to fight of those who remain.

I have no doubts in my own mind that the devestation being wreaked at the moment will have much further reaching impacts than that inflicted in 1940 during the retreat at Dunkirk; back then it took a few years of solid graft to get the forces back into some sort of fighting shape. This time, it will take a generation or more. Assuming that we do ever recover.

Congratulations Tony, George et al - if Adolf were still around, he'd be sending a big box of Iron Crosses to Downing St & MOD.:D :D :D

[chippy63]

And will this be mirrored in a similar freeze on promotions for the myriad civilian pen pushers and trouser- seat polishers who lurk gollum-like in the MoD?
Stupid boy, chippy!

[nigegilb]

just wonder if this has anything to do with Gordon Brown. Blair is desperately seeking a legacy in the ME, when we all know his legacy is that illegal war. Which brings us to Gordon, is he trying to sort out his final act as Chancellor, to decimate the Armed Forces he so clearly dislikes? Can't wait for him to takeover as PM.....

[PompeySailor]

This was brought up in briefings about 6 months ago as part of another new directive/strategy. It is generally known that there are massive cuts ahead for the RN, particularly when it comes to the shore support areas. Civilianisation is the way ahead as far as they are concerned.

It's not a complete freeze, it's a "reduction". There will still be promotions to cover wastage, but that's not really much of a boost to the poor buggers waiting to move upwards.

It's not strictly constructive dismissal, as promotion is not a "given". No company guarantees you promotion, it's all still based on selection to meet the requirments. ARRSE tends to go off on these "sue them/hit them/kill them" rants on a regular basis without really knowing the background. There are a couple of quite clever legalese people on their, but they don't come out to play very often, mainly because they tend to end up winding people up with their attitudes. A shame, because ARRSE would benefit from a steadying legal hand at times.

Anyway, there will be cuts. The Civil Service went through it, and now the Headquarters staffs will be put to the sword of cost-cutting as well. Be aware that during the briefings it was intimated that the dark blue were not the only ones about to take cuts (I have forgotten the figures), this has only come out as an RN story because of the Galaxy publication. You might want to dig upwards (or sidewards) to get the information as it will be relating to you!

[orca]

I think that cuts are in order - particularly in the 'tail'. Last time i looked we had approximately 50 commands, DD/FF/NAS, which could and should be filled by a Commander. At the same time we had 900 commanders. Doesn't add up to me. Can't really see why we need more than one admiral and one dockyard for 35,000 people and 45 surface ships.

[gijoe]

Link to article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/06/navy06.xml
Not sure what the current position is in the RN. Whilst the RAF has always (AFAIK) promoted to Sqn Ldr (Lt Cdr/Maj) competitively, my understanding is that some elements of the other Services have promoted to this rank automatically based on time served.
STH
Not true.
Promotion in Army/RM/RN is based on merit and selection but it is not the big jump that moving from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr entails. 95% of people who hang around and put up with the housing long enough will be selected. The next rung up is the big hurdle for Army/RM/RN.

[Jimlad1]

"And will this be mirrored in a similar freeze on promotions for the myriad civilian pen pushers and trouser- seat polishers who lurk gollum-like in the MoD?"

Sorry to prevent someone else enjoying a rant at the CS, but the answer is a resounding YES. Obviously its difficult to directly compare the 2 systems, because of differing recruitment practise. Suffice to say that there is a general freeze on creation of new posts, and its actually very difficult to authorise advertising for replacements - many posts are now gapped. There is still some promotion / recruitment for attrition, but far less than you'd think.

[bad livin']

STH - certain individuals were indeed guaranteed promotion, based on bursary/commission structure that's gone by the wayside. I've had one CO and one oppo in that very bracket.

[Oggin Aviator]

BL - only if they joined before the introduction of the 3TC and if GL; they would therefore be on reserved rights (ie all Lt GL promoted to Lt Cdr at 8 years seniority - even if completly useless). Post FTC all promotion is by merit - a far better system IMHO.

There is not a freeze on promotion, just a reduction to address a perceived imbalance - whether the consequences will be as severe as the recruiting reduction 10-12 years ago (now leading to a black hole in certain levels of Lt seniority) we wll have to see.

IMO it might (stress just might) force out some of the dead wood who are hanging around for a juicy pension. This will be good for the service as a whole. Agree the aforementioned literary ex Lt is outspoken however his book contains some interesting stuff about the way Defence is run.

Why not just add 1p to income tax, use this additional revenue to give this country a Navy, Army and Air Force to be proud of, well equipped with well paid, well housed, well looked after therefore motivated people. As someone mentioned in the ToryGraph today the Government should think about focussing on its primary purpose - The Nation's defence. Getting involved overseas is another argument however I guess if we want to hold onto the seat on the UN Security Council maybe we need to, maybe we dont ........

Soon there will be nothing left, just as potential adversaries overseas reach their zenith - then we will be in the poo.

Oggin

[bad livin']

Oggin - yes, both were and did. Lucky for some!

[jockspice]

It will be interesting to see how many exercise their PVR, both in the next few weeks and after the February signal.

[bad livin']

Jockspice - having spoken to a lot of mates, many of whom this will directly affect and who in many cases are already starting to sniff across to the other side of the fence, I suspect the PVR rate (especially among those around FNO time Lt Warfairies) will rocket. Half the people I joined up with are already actively seeking specialised jobs outside their core training as they feel they're getting no operational exposure to speak of and are sadly wishing in many cases they'd joined another service. Volunteers for the 'Stan and Iraq training and other jobs amongst my contemporaries are numerous.

[pr00ne]

Oh for goodness sake, before you get so hysterical about this and do yourselves an injury, try reading the leaked memo;

“The leaked memo, from Vice-Admiral Adrian Johns, the Second Sea Lord, said: "In order to rebalance in favour of the front line we are focusing on officers of Lieutenant Commander and above. I anticipate a temporary reduction in promotion numbers primarily in the officer cadre for the period 2008 to 2010 and recovering to present levels in 2012."

Now, does that REALLY justify a heading of ALL promotions to be stopped for 5 years?

More nonsensical defence reporting from the Torygraph……………………….

[professor moriarty]

I did this several years ago after getting hacked off with the way things were going. I had 14 great years and would do it all again...well most of it! I have never looked back and though I am now working harder, but earning considerably more I find myself valued far more on the outside than in the Mob.

[forwardassist]

pr00ne
As Oggin, jockspice and a few others that have commented are currently in the service (and the bracket) in question, I suspect they will have seen the actual document, rather than relying on leaks or reporting, so they will know more than you. :}
I am also concerned with those who are already making regular visits to sandy places and will continue to this year; I think the phrase is "turbo-threaders!" :uhoh:

[Tourist]

If they actually intend to minimise Lt Cdr and above promotion I full support them. We have too many of each rank, and the problem is worse the higher up the ranks you go.
However, stop Lt to Lt Cdr promotion and there will be a lot of unhappy bunnies. Particularly the people who just sold their souls for FTC.

[Oggin Aviator]

Now, does that REALLY justify a heading of ALL promotions to be stopped for 5 years?

I have read the memo and above is not what I think or am alarmed at.
2SL said:
"I anticipate a temporary reduction in promotion numbers primarily in the officer cadre for the period 2008 to 2010 and recovering to present levels in 2012."

targeted at Lt Cdr and above.

As someone who may be slightly affected by this (as I suspect Jockspice is as well), as WAFUs we will realistically just be getting into zone for 3 rings when it should be back to normal. Do three crunchy appointments and jobs a guddun lol.

...... I guess that's if they keep the FRI going, eh Jockspice ?? !! :E

[jockspice]

Oggs
Not this callsign, mate!
Once bitten, and all that....:=

[The Ferret]

After reading all this nonsense - even if it may just be merely a reduction in promotions rather than a complete cut - I am so glad that I left 2 years ago! I served for 28 years and left as a Lt Cdr with 14 years seniority and lots of empty promises - and now it is just getting worse. The only way I was ever going to be promoted Captain was to leave the Mob - and I acheived that as I walked into civvy street. I am sorry to say that this is going to cause alot of grief down the line where there will be a big gap in experience as people leave - it is a sorry state when MOD cannot afford to make people redundant and have to resort to this underhand policy!

The Ferret:cool: :cool: :cool:

[PompeySailor]

After reading all this nonsense - even if it may just be merely a reduction in promotions rather than a complete cut - I am so glad that I left 2 years ago! I served for 28 years and left as a Lt Cdr with 14 years seniority and lots of empty promises - and now it is just getting worse. The only way I was ever going to be promoted Captain was to leave the Mob - and I acheived that as I walked into civvy street. I am sorry to say that this is going to cause alot of grief down the line where there will be a big gap in experience as people leave - it is a sorry state when MOD cannot afford to make people redundant and have to resort to this underhand policy!

The Ferret:cool: :cool: :cool:

Why the surprise though? Look at the "Headquarters Reorganisation" that cut swathes through the civil servants. Granted, there were too many of them, and some were a little more than fixtures and fittings, but the relocations did nothing but ensure that many of them left - taking knowledge with them. Some of them are now re-employed via agencies! The DV Offices did the same - moved from Portsmouth to York, and lost most of the expertise; look at the shambles of temporary DVs and backlogs. Rather than simply saying that they want to restructure the Forces, full stop, and work out what they really want to do, they cut promotion numbers on one hand, change the recruiting age for the Army on the other, and fanny about with relocation of units and training establishments whilst not giving enough people enough of the story. I know guys that are into 2OE (an extra 10 years) who are simply waiting for a bad draft to put their notice in. I know of Officers, senior and junior, who are doing the same thing. They are all actively using the Forces to get their professional qualifications up to speed, and they will leave no matter what the Return of Service states (it's been challenged in court, and the MOD have lost before). This government has managed to reduce the Forces to nothing more than a Defence Force, and I am glad the media are finally starting to pick up on the wealth of stories that were previously kept in check by the MOD Media Comms and the fear of the OSA. If serving 2*s and upwards can go to the media, it removes the fear for everyone - the common enemy is sitting in parliament these days.

[MaroonMan4]

It is really simple

If you dont like what is happening then leave - as posted above, it is harder work, and at time longer hours, but most of the time I return to my own bed, do bath time for kids and have a life.
If you think that the 'old days' of actually being 'looked after' by the Forces with the public and Service valuing you - then forget it. The moment you start to feel a teeney weeney bit bitter or twisted it is time to go.
It is a shock to the system, but wife and kids will appreciate it - there are jobs out there, not just the airlines/rigs, but Defence related and numerous other professions where our skills are appreciated and remunerated well.
It is too easy to sit whingeing in a crew room/behind your desk/in the cockpit - be proactive and give your self options - then you can leave when you want to of it gets that bad.

[Mr-AEO]

This all came out in the Galaxy Briefing note before Crimbo. Of note, the real gist sits between the 5 year freeze as touted in the torygraph and the 2 year rebalance as quoted above. I wonder what the real truth is, and what everyones first question to their appointer will be this year??

And important to note that this 'freeze' includes CPO to WO and 2OE (Extended Service).

Oh, how we love to p1$$ people off in over Crimbo, seems it's becoming a habit:mad:

It would be interesting how this affects each branch etc, because some will be much worse affected than others.

[orca]

I personally don't think there will be too many immediate PVRs. What it will do, however, is concrete quite a few people's decision to go at IPP. Let's face it, you only stay past IPP if you are about to get a third stripe or have made it onto the PA spine. Or you're a weirdo. (Gumshield in)

It makes a lot of difference to the guys that now may not even be in zone when the decision point comes - and Mr Branson won't wait forever!

In summary, give it two or three years, and then we'll see people taking their options in droves.

Apologies to all weirdos.

[Wannabe1974]

What a sad state of affairs that such a fine Service is being rapidly dismantled by an ungrateful Government, who must be bordering on the criminally negligent.
I'm on my resettlement and my final date is in 4 weeks. I was a Warfare Lt and can only say that I'm glad I made the choice to go, although the state of the Navy was not a massive factor. I pity those left behind that have to put up with this bolleaux.
I only hope that the rest of the nasty rumours I heard don't come true (only one CVF, only 6 T45, 9 operational FFDD in 2007, all T22 to be scrapped, One LPD to be mothballed, Navy to reduce to 20,000 by 2015 (actually that one's a fact), Collingwood and Sultan to close, HMNB Portsmouth to close etc ad infinitum).
I did wonder when I left if I should be turning off the light. Well I would have been only we weren't allowed the lights on in the day at Collingwood!.

[bad livin']

Wannabe, I sincerely hope you share my pleasure in the idea of Collingwood being razed to the ground. What a hellhole.

[Wannabe1974]

Wannabe, I sincerely hope you share my pleasure in the idea of Collingwood being razed to the ground. What a hellhole.

Well there is that.
Perhaps they could build some Barrett homes for WE's on it? ;)

[stabout]

This all sounds like a rather depressing situation that this rubbish government is putting Officers into. If you are approaching the end of a short/medium service commission then consider going to the North Sea.
Why?
Work 182 days a year roster either with Bond or CHC Scotia.
Get paid the same as you were in the Navy with the certainty of earning a lot more. The only way you will earn more in a civvy flying job is working with BA Mainline or Virgin but then you will be working more than 182 days a year.
Final Salary Pension Scheme at CHC (like gold dust now!)
Know your roster months in advanced so you can plan a life.
I know this sounds like a sales pitch but compared to the Navy it awesome, I now have quality of life and don’t get shot at!
All three companies Bond Bristow’s and CHC are recruiting and with your backgrounds you will be snapped up.

[Mr-AEO]

Ah..but are there any Oil/Gas Rigs in Portland?....? or off helston??..

Who want's to live with the Jocks for heaven sakes;)

[bad livin']

Those who can punctuate and spell are welcome...

[stabout]

Only trying to help old ship mates!:sad:

I'll go back to my english lesson now.

[scroggs]

The only way you will earn more in a civvy flying job is working with .... Virgin but then you will be working more than 182 days a year.
Final Salary Pension Scheme at CHC (like gold dust now!)
At Virgin, I work a maximum of 195 days a year - usually quite a few less. A Final Salary pension isn't necessarily as great a thing as you might think. Unlike the Military Pension, a commercial company's pension scheme's fate is tied to that of the company - if the company goes down, so does the pension scheme, as several have found to their cost over the last couple of years. The government's pension rescue service isn't worth a damn. My defined-contribution scheme is mine, whatever happens to Virgin and wherever I work in the future.

[Matt Skrossa]

Reminds me of the very senior Lt Cdr speaking to his Appointer;

'Every year the promotion signal comes out with the cry round the fleet 'how the f*ck did that t*at get promoted, this year I wish to be that officer'.

From a personal view and judging by my illustrious career I thought that the RN had frozen promotions for the last 12 years!!!!

[Widger]

Hear Hear,.......waves ballot paper!:D

[WhiteOvies]

Another morale kick in slats! I think how it will manifest itself depends on which branch you are and where you currently sit in the scale of things. There will always be some pull through, dead mans shoes is a traditional route for RN promotion (bloody war and sickly season etc!)

Hopefully Lt Cdrs at IPP will leave in droves leaving lots of jobs for Lts :hmm:

It's not looking good if you're a fishhead though, no ships to drive, and IMHO this is indeed a crafty way to cut staff numbers without throwing your money away asa generous redundancy packages.

For the youngsters who were not looking at promotion til 2010 at the earliest anyway I can't see it being an issue, certain branches still have black holes from the previously mentioned recruitment freeze anyway.

Lots more bitter and twisted RN officers forecast for 07/08:(

[Widger]

Hmmmmm.....puzzle, start to fit it does. Jedi (U) you wish to be. Way of the green side (lid or ovies) you must turn.

[WhiteOvies]

Or way of the Dolphin ;)

[Wannabe1974]

It's not looking good if you're a fishhead though, no ships to drive, and IMHO this is indeed a crafty way to cut staff numbers without throwing your money away asa generous redundancy packages.

Well quite. Had I stayed in I would have been looking at promotion in the next 2 years. Assuming that I now would not have been promoted until 2012, that would have made me 37/38 on promotion to Lt Cdr! And then only if I was selected! I can't think that I would have been hanging around much longer in those circumstances. Of course were I a pusser, I would have been promoted immediately on being eligible (do they have anything to do with promotion I wonder??:= ).

Does anyone have the number for that truck driving school? Truckmaster I think it's called....

[Union Jack]

On a purely historical note, I believe that the original basis for automatic promotion to Lieutenant Commander was that, prior to 1914, the Lieutenants' List was divided between those under and over eight years' seniority respectively. The rank of Lt So, Cdr was introduced as a further distinction and thus a Lt Cdr was in a sense originally deemed to be a "senior" Lieutenant rather than a "junior" Commander in the way a Lieutenant Colonel is a "junior" Colonel, at least before the need for equivalence arrived when the Light Blue were invented, sorry, formed.

Sadly, this adds little or nothing to the real and very important current issue, and we can only hope for the best for those most affected
by whatever finally emerges from the Madhouse.

Jack

[pigfist]

Hmmm, did anyone notice the irony on the Telegraph website? Read the Google adverts at the bottom - one from defence.gov.au advertising jobs for the 'navy'. Do you think that will help the MoD'd recruitment and retention issues when the senior Lt RNs log on to the Aussie ADF site and think 'FOST' vs Bondi beach? Guess the promotions board on 18 Feb will be even more eagerly awaited than usual. Notice that the article makes no mention of which branches are 'over-manned' by Lt Cdrs. Obviously it couldn't be the pussers because there are never enough of them...................filthy REMFs.

'Remember, everything has a pk of one if it hits you'

[Willi B]

There's situations vacant in OZ - see http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/default.asp?p=526

[tigerson230]

hi

im in secondary school i have my whole life ahead of me, ive always wanted to be in the mod. so much in fact go to welbeck, however the two main options i had in my mind was the RN or the RAF but now the royal navy have just lost one potential member.

ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i mean what a stupid idea! all it is is a sly scam to save money, yet they wonder why people are reseigning

see ya

[orca]

May I be the first to issue the SOP slap down:

Before you leave school be sure to get the hang of punctuation.

Calm down, it's just banter - not that you'll ever find out if you're not going to join!

See? Capitals and punctuation marks actually work!

[Tiger_mate]

He is 11 years old, nearly 12; opinionated, and saves every penny of pocket money for a sixth form education at the MOD College / Wellbeck. He does have strong desires for a comissioned career in the military, and despite a parent in the RAF, was biased towards the Navy. If an 11 year old can (without influence) come up with an opinion such as this, then it says a lot for the IQ of the source of this decision.

Compared to his peers, the text was at least understandable. However, he has had the 'after post' debriefing about logging on here at all!! If he posts again, we will debrief around the back of the hangar :=

[Union Jack]

'Every year the promotion signal comes out with the cry round the fleet 'how the f*ck did that t*at get promoted, this year I wish to be that officer'.


Reminds me of the time in Singapore, all too many years ago, when, shortly before the promotion signal came out at 1730 GH, the Gunnery Officer of my carrier announced in the wardroom anteroom that, if the CO of the Sea Vixen squadron (well, I did say it was a long time ago ...) were to be selected, he would eat his hat.

At approximately 1740 GH, Guns was to be found chewing rather ineffectually on his Panama hat, surrounded by cheering members of 89* NAS, all drinking at his expense!

Jack

[Argus]

Goonery officers posted to the FAA tended to love ‘liquorice legs’, swagger sticks and loud conversational remarks about falling in on the flight deck in procedure alpha, or facing aft and saluting.

As a genus, they were not the brightest, and generally lacked a sense of humour, peripheral vision and savoir faire. They were thus handicapped in dealing with aircrew.

One exception was Lieutenant Special Duties (as he then was in the mid 60s at BRNC) Frank Trickey RN, a man who stood 6’ 4˝, of which 6’3˝ was chest, and whose normal conversational tone could be heard some 300 yards away. His wit was quick, and his repartee matchless, especially in pointing out to general list seaman officers that he’d earned his rank and not merely drawn it from the clothing store.

I believe he went on to command a frigate (no mean feat for an SD officer commissioned from the lower deck), and was in charge of the ceremonial arrangements for the Charles/Diana wedding at Westminster Abbey.

[Haggis37]

Check this out.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/list/open?cat=911

look down the list to the fourth petition.

Unless some time has elapsed and it's moved up to third....second....etc

;)

[pigfist]

Haggis,

Outstanding piece of research (although possibly indicating you have too much time on your hands!). Whether you are light/dark blue/stinky pongo I commend you to get on to the site and sign the on-line petition -if nothing more than to annoy Tony Bliar.

[Kitbag]

I see that a petition to recognise Borat as the Leader of Kazhakstan has more signatories than one querying the legality of the Iraq adventure. Perhaps that is a more perfect reflection of the electorates interest and knowledge of world affairs.

May our God/s help us (just trying to be a bit PC. If anybody doesn't like it- tough, I have my own views)

[pigfist]

Kitbag,

Can't believe I missed that one!! Can you imagine the look on Sacha Baron Cohen's face if they actually got that one through!! First Lady Isla Fisher................there's a thought.:p :p :p