Cessna 152 Landing Advice

[Orville The Duck]

I am currently at around 12 hours and in the circuit stage of training. I am finding the whole process of setting up the descent and landing rather confusing.

I have been trained so far as follows (assuming calm conditions, I don't even want to think about wind at the moment!):
1. Wait until the runway is at approximately 45 degrees ahead and to the left of the aeroplane;
2. Apply carb heat and reduce power to around 1600 / 1700 rpm;
3. Pull back to keep the nose up until the airspeed drops into the white arc;
4. Bring in 20 degrees of flap, lower the nose and trim for a 65 knot descent (it's a few weeks since I flew and I can't remember exactly what the rate of descent is at this speed and power setting, around 400 to 500 feet per minute I think);
5. Look for the runway extended centreline and carry out a descending turn onto it, maintaining the 65 knot airspeed.
6. Maintaining runway centreline, bring in the last stage of flap, set the attitude and trim for a 60 knot final (again, can't remember the descent rate);
7. Keep centreline, airspeed and approach path in mind throughout the descent;
8. Maintain the 60 knot airspeed, making adjustments as necessary to power, attitude and trim to maintain the correct approach path until the flare;
9. Flare and maintain back pressure while the aeroplane floats and sinks to the ground;
10. When all wheels are on the ground, pull back hard on the column until the speed reduces.

The bits I'm struggling with mainly are the final approach, flare and landing (none of which I have managed to do yet without a fair amount of input from my instructor).

I find that when the approach path is becoming too steep or shallow and I have to make corrections my brain turns into goo and I find I have no idea what to do other than increasing or reducing power.

When the approach is becoming too steep (runway lengthening and runway numbers moving up the windscreen) and I add power to reduce the rate of descent, what do I need to do with the attitude to maintain the 60 knots. Likewise, what should I do to maintain the airspeed if the approach is becoming too shallow and I need to reduce power. Also, when over the airfield and I take the power right off for landing, what should I do, and how is it best to judge when to start applying back pressure for the flare?

As I'm not sure what I should do before I do it I find instinct takes over, with various degrees of jabbing at the controls and throttle without really understanding how it will affect the approach. My obvious worry is that I may cause a stall with very little height and time to recover.

I would be very grateful for any advice anyone can offer. If anyone can take me through a step by step landing it would be great. I'm desperate to get the process logged into my brain before I fly next, as I am finding that the landing is really holding back my progress, especially as I only get to attempt it 4 times or so per lesson. I hoped I would be getting somewhere near my first solo by now, but it seems like it is still a long way off yet if I can't get this sorted.

Cheers,
OTD.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Attitude is speed.

So your power input, whilst keeping the same attitude, will just flatten or steepen the approach depending on whether you add or reduce power.

You write that you are worried about stalling it on the approach.

Because you are only looking at 2 things in this phase of the flight, the ASI and out of the window that will not happen! So don't worry!

Your eyes should be glued to the picture outside the window and every few seconds you give the ASI a quick glance, adjusting attitude to maintain your approach speed.

Once you think, **** if I continue like this I am going to stuff it in at the aiming point, you cast your view to the far end of the runway, close the throttle ease the stick or yoke back and keep looking at the distant end of the runway.

That flattens out your approach path and starts to slow you down.

You keep looking at the far end and slowly bring back the stick/yoke making sure that you keep the thing in the air without going back up again.

Keep doing that and eventually you will run out of flying speed and the machine settles down at or around the stall speed.

That's it.

Bit like riding a bike. You can write a few tomes about it, practise it a few times and get it right and you'll never understand why you ever struggled!

Have fun and don't rush or self pressure for that first solo. Your time will come. Added pressure will just lead to frustration. And it is fun that you are after!

Enjoy!

[jamestkirk]

Don't worry mate.

From your post, you obviously have a good understanding of what you need to be doing and that foundation is great.

You are only 12'ish hours in so don't except that after a couple of hours in the circuit you will be making oerfect landings etc.

The only advice I would give is to stay in the circuit a little longer than about 4 slam and off's.

If we have a student who is up for it, we do approx 8-10 circuits in one session. You need a couple of circuits to settle in, a few to practise and a couple to fine tune.

Just as Dutch just said, relax, enjoy it, dont pressure yourself, learn from what you do wrong, think ahead of the aircraft (on base, think about setting up on finals) and LOOK OUT THE WINDOW.

Don't worry about rate of descent too much in 100'fpm but on where and what height you should be in the appropriate visual ref points in the circuit.

Let us know how you get on

JTK

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Frank's advice is very sound; I do not have much to say on the subject except to emphasize that POWER CONTROLS RATE OF DESCENT and ATTITUDE CONTROLS SPEED. It can be a bit of a fine balancing act to bring these two into a stable relative equilibrium but remember that, memorise it and practice it, and you should find that you build up more capacity to comprehend more information as you gain experience. As somebody else has mentioned, the theory you have written above is good, now memorise it and - more importantly - UNDERSTAND it.

All the best, Jack.

[MikeJ]

I'll add a few more comments to those of Flying'D'.
1. Where are you learning? If you are only getting 4 landings for each hour paid for, consider finding a small club airfield, which will give you 7-8 landings in this time. Even if you had a lesson every day, the first circuit will just enable you to catch up to where you were at the end of the last lesson.
If one a week, you may need two more, leaving only one for development!
2. Without any implication of criticism of either of you, this sort of problem has often been solved immediately by change of instructor. Instructor/student 'gel' can make a real impact on rate of learning.
3. Don't even begin to think of rate of descent. Flying'D' is so right in saying that once the descent is established, you look at nothing but the outside world, and the ASI every few seconds.
4. Personally, I always found it unsettling to be changing speed during the approach, finding it much better to get established at 'over the hedge' speed when commencing descent on base leg, and then holding it on the nail. Especially get accurately trimmed at this time. My instructor, all the decades ago, would after turning final, often get me to let go the yoke, to test my trim.
5. As F'D' says, if you are on the button on speed, you will never stall on the base/final turn. Only a stupid pull back during the turn will do that.
6. I learnt on a C150, and the speeds you quote seem high. Its as difficult to land at too high as too low a speed. The aircraft must cease flying when the mains touch the ground. Possibly it was nearly a 100 years ago it was learnt the best approach speed for calm/light winds is 30% above stall speed for the configuration used. With 20deg flaps, I thought that the C152 stall is about 35kts, which gives 45kts approach. Even adding a bit more, should one be more than 50kts over the hedge?
7. With the problems you report, I would also suggest that you keep the 20deg flap through the landing, and not disturb things by putting on the final stage flaps late in the approach.

Just a few personal comments. Others may disagree.
MikeJ

[matelot]

1 - 4 looks like you're doing your downwind drills actually on base leg. Is that the routine for a 152?

10. When all wheels are on the ground, pull back hard on the column until the speed reduces.

Isn't that a good way to get airborne again?

[ronnie3585]

Indeed that is a good way of getting airborne again! The main purpose of lifting the nose wheel is to keep the load off the nose wheel, the reduction of speed is secondary.
As mentioned before you shouldn't be bothered with the rate of descent. When you turn finals you should be concerned with your position relative to the runway i.e. the picture out the window, and your airspeed. Dont try to aspire to figures and numbers (except airspeed!) on finals. Try to fly a stabilised approach that will give you a healthy airspeed and keep your aiming point static in your window

[the dean]

hi orville,

do'nt worry.it will come soon.

the flare is the last bit to learn.one day it will just be there.

tip from an old instructor i had 35 years ago...sit up in bed..clode your eyes and fly round the circuit seing all the actions you would take and visualizing the runway. it will help..you can practice as many touch and goes as you like at no cost before you sleep.

most important...watch the runway come up and decide at what point you would start the flare.

remember the circuit is learned by the brain in chunks or segments of knowledge.

secondly...try to get a copy of alan bramsons book...''make better landings'' it should help as it specifically deals with such.

thirdly a few words of advice...( referring to your numbers...):

1.WRONG.... when the runway is 45 BEHIND your shoulder or the trailing edge of the wingtip..not 45 in front.

2.WRONG...carb heat and power should be done AFTER not before you turn base as you can best see and judge the runway from there not when you have your back to it and some days you may have a tailwind on base and others a headwind...so its best to leave any power reduction till then.1600/1700 seems about right for most light singles.

3.WRONG..you do not raise the nose and destabilize the approach but you apply back pressure slowley to hold the nose level ( relative to the horizon ) only to let the speed bleed off.

4-9 this all seems fine ( bearing in mind everyone does things a little differently so long as it is within reason and works...but you have not mentioned what power setting you use on the approch. adjustments should be small watching for anysign of getting high or worse falling short.
too much or too little power added to late or too soon might de-stabalize your approach.

10.WRONG..the touchdown hasbeen on the maingear only ( to protect your nosewheeh which is for steering not for landing on )..and so continue to apply GENTLE back pressure to let the nosewheel gently to the ground.

basically you have the drill and i do'nt want to cause confusion between you and your instructor....and perhaps you have got a little confused in what you have typed so this is not intended as a reflection on your instructor...but maybe you should have a look again at the theory book you are using to refresh your memory...and try to get ''make better landings'' if you can find it.

remember it has been said that a good approach makes a good landing...and that a good landing it when the plane wants to get on the ground but the pilot does'nt want it to...so hold off as long as you can:D ( provided you are close to the ground and not in a strong crosswind)

good luck and stick with it...you're almost there..

gear up.:ok:

the dean.

[combineharvester]

Hello!

lots of good advice above. remember one thing, in all stages of flight keep the aircraft trimmed.

I teach that for the approach configuration (taking into account headwind/tailwind for the base leg)
15-1700rpm
20 deg flap
One whole back trim (top of wheel to bottom)
Should give 65-70kt and a sensible descent rate

If this all works (all other variables being equal) taking full flap on final will give 60-65kts with a negligible trim change if any.

Ask your instructor if they mind teaching you some flapless approaches, if you can master these (due the higher nose attitude in the flare) a normal powered approach seems comparitively easier

Remember, we're in this to enjoy it! (as i say to my students, this is not thie military, i cannot court martial you or throw things at you if you balls it up, so lets just got and have a crack)

hope this helps

[east_sider]

Orville,

I'm at about the same stage myself and having some of the same problems - mostly with flare and hold off. I've been taught as follows: once turned onto base, carb heat on, 1700 rpm, airspeed in white arc, 2 stages of flap. Attitude for 65kts then trim, usually two back ish. The most likely point to stall is on the turn from base to final, so no more that 20 degrees AOB for that turn, preferably 15 degrees. You are probably making the other turns in the circuit at up to 30 degrees AOB if required...? Once on final third stage of flap down, attitude to maintain 65kts. Then threshold 1/3 of the way up the screen, attitude for speed, power for rate of descent. If runway is moving up screen power up, you are undershooting. If runway moving down screen power down, overshooting. Once I'm sure we'll make the numbers power off (this still seems very high sometimes!!) then to judge the flare look to the far end of the runway and gently pull back, then keep her flying as long as possible. Apparently my job is to fly the machine not try and land it!!

Here is a good thread from a while back with some further thoughts on judging the flare:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74587

Stick at it and happy landings!
ES

[Flyin'Dutch']

Here is a good thread from a while back with some further thoughts on judging the flare:

ES,

Oh my gawd, a blast from the past, I was too gobby all that time back too!


:}

[sierracharlie]

"When the approach is becoming too steep (runway lengthening and runway numbers moving up the windscreen) and I add power to reduce the rate of descent, what do I need to do with the attitude to maintain the 60 knots."
If your adding power and wish to maintain the 60kts you will have to pitch up and raise the nose attitude. Only by a fraction mind .....
"Likewise, what should I do to maintain the airspeed if the approach is becoming too shallow and I need to reduce power."
If the approach is shallow, (do you mean low?), then add power and raise the nose attitude.
If the approach is high reduce power and lower the nose to maintain the approach speed
The actions are almost simultaneous. Final tip is to relax. Reset your grip on the controls. All too often students clench the controls so hard they wnd up with white knuckles.

[Whirlybird]

my brain turns into goo and I find I have no idea what to do other than increasing or reducing power.


What you have written is an absolutely classic description of overload. In other words, it's what happens when your brain can't yet cope with all the information it's being given, so it gives up on everything other than the bare essentials. Get used to recognising it. It happens a lot during flying training. The first most common time is when learning to land. The second is when you start trying to navigate, and suddenly...you can't fly any more. Or, if you can, you can't work out the simplest calculation in your head.

So, what can you do about it? Practise, practise, and more practise. That way, each individual thing you're doing gradually becomes second nature, until landing is not a series of loads of different things to do, but just a few (turn, descend, approach, flare), and eventually, you just land. It takes most people quite a long time to reach that point, and I'm not sure you can shortcut the process by doing it all in your head. Personally, despite having 300+ hours (f/w, not rotary), I read all these posts and found myself horribly confused!

Your description of how to land sounds pretty accurate to me. There are different ways of doing it, but at this stage stick to one method - your instructor's. I think you'll find that after a few more hours - or even less - it'll start coming together. If not, then think about changing instructor, as a different method of teaching may help if you're really becoming stuck.

If I had a penny for every post I've read on here from someone who feels they'll never manage to land, I might not be rich, but I'd be able to afford a lot more flying. You are not alone.

[matelot]

@ Orville - now that you've read all the advice, no doubt your head will still be spinning. Could you really recall any one post and adopt that method when you'd reached base leg?

At the end of the day, you will have to be guided by your instructor at the time. These posts show that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that you are not alone in getting to grips with this manoeuvre.

Once you've understood what's happening to the a/c, you'll start to fly more by feel and intuition. You won't be trying to force the numbers: if it feels right, the numbers will be there in support of you.

It's a learning curve - you're on it - you'll get there.

[RatherBeFlying]

As many have said, a good approach is needed for a good landing. The trick is to start it from the same point.

For the time being, it may be easier to use local landmarks for locating the downwind leg and base turnpoint (when you get to the stage of flying to different airfields, you can bring in the various rules of thumb for spacing your downwind leg and turnpoint to base, but then you will be well into the post-solo stage).

As you watch the runway during your approach, the spot you will hit is not moving. The ground between you and that spot will appear to be moving towards you, and the ground past that spot will appear to be moving away.

To control this spot you can add flaps or add/subtract power. All of these actions change your trim especially on a C-152. Because the trim changes, the position of the landing spot on the windshield changes; so, you have to keep your eyes on the spot where you will hit and continue to adjust power.
If you frequently get yourself in the situation of continuously adjusting power, you don't really know where you are and are only learning where you don't want to be. If that is the case, try an approach without adjusting power -- a simulated power failure from downwind is an excellent exercise.

For beginning the flare you need to get used to the control response. The dirty secret is that as you are losing airspeed, the control power is decreasing with the square of the airspeed. So you begin the flare with just a bit of back pressure so that you don't balloon, but enough that you don't hit nosewheel first:uhoh: then end up with the wheel all the way back just as the a/c runs out of flying speed and the wheels squeak.

As you transition into the flare, many advise that you transition your gaze from the aim point to the far end of the runway. This focuses your attention on the horizon. I happen to use peripheral vision clues myself. Do what ever works for you.

Another exercise (on a long enough runway) is to add power and simply fly a few feet above it in the flared condition. Remember to establish a full power climb in time to clear obstacles.

[Nil Flaps]

GDAY ORVILLE,

First off, for 12 hours you're doing good mate. Stick with it, it'll come. Yes, it overloads your brain when you're up there (did me too) but the best advice I can give here (no point repeating what others have said) is think POSITIVE on finals - tell yourself you CAN do it.

Sounds like a really dumb and obvious thing to say but I'm proof that if your approaches are rusty, and just an inkling of doubt starts to creep into your mind, invariably it all goes to ****, especially on finals. I don't mean you'll crash but you will end up needing a fair bit of input from your FI if you get into a negative mindset.

Thinking that you CAN do it (even if you're not entirely sure of your skills), things really do start to fall into place.

I'm guilty of wasting a few lessons by thinking negative thoughts and they were the lessons where I made little progress. But when I finally realised I was doing this (and realising the $ I was wasting!), I started to make a conscious effort to think I CAN DO THIS... and my flying improved heaps. I'm not saying you ARE thinking negative thoughts, but be honest with yourself, and if you ARE, try using this daft bit of advice - it works. :ok:

Another thing, about turning base. I used to be taught to pull the power back to 1700rpm on base turn - then all of a sudden, my schools FI's (all of them) started teaching everyone power to idle.

So, now we always pull power back to idle on base turn. As far as I know, this has been done so your speed can decay faster, and allows you to get that initial 20 degrees of flap (when in the white arc) out quicker.

Once on base leg, I am then told to use power as required. This always differs, but you find it's usually somewhere around 1500rpm. The most important thing though is to ensure you maintain 65kts on base, rather than worry too much about your RPM.

Many of our FI's started putting their hands over the RPM gauge when students got fixated on engine RPM - esp. when turning base. They did it to me a lot and it soon teaches you to LISTEN to the engine and get to know the sound it makes at the right speeds/RPM's - just so you don't fix on that one instrument all the time. Of course, that doesn't mean they never want you to look at it, but that you are not preoccupied all the time with just that one insrument.

Ask your FI about the power-to-idle method on base turn. See what he/she thinks. :ok:

Also, once you have that 20 degrees of flap out, do 5 small downward turns on the trim wheel. This is not taught (my FI gave it to me as a tip) but this is usually the sort of trim you need to hold 65kts on base. It's not always exact but a pretty good measure.

Keep at it. This is not at all unusual to be having a few issues with this at your stage. Trust me, you're doing good. ;)

[davidatter708]

If I were you I would tyr only 20 degrees of flap because the 3rd stage brings you down like a truck and needs a lot of power to keep a good approach. Also as the attitude is very nose down the flare feels very weird and you sort of have to do 2 flares one to flying along the runway then one to get the nose high to get a nice landing.
Also dont worry too much about what you instrments say except your speed just judge where you need to be for instance if your low bit more power level out slightly and the oposite if your high. Happy Flying and I hope this helps

Dave

[dbromle]

Insert step 8a?
Carb heat off in case of go-round?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Insert step 8a?
Carb heat off in case of go-round?
Matter of opinion, that one - go with what the instructor says.

I was taught to push in carb heat at the same time as the throttle for a go-around and never had any trouble with that.

(Except once, with a crosswind way beyone what I would have flown on my own and a young nervous instructor who didn't like the way I'd screwed up the previous approach.)

[Pilot DAR]

Hi Orville,

You sure are getting lots of good advice here! Everyone has their own approach to landing (pardon the pun), and as long as the technique is somewhere near what the flight manual says, it is very likely to set you up for a fine landing. There are a number of distinctly different ways to land a 152 with great results. What they would all have in common would be the feel of the plane at any point in the approach. Your instructor is there to keep you safe while you learn for yourself at your pace. Do not fixate on the instruments (one night, while working on your night rating, your instructor will turn off all of the instrument lights to simulate an electrical failure, but leave the nav lights on for safety!). When that happens, you'll have only the feel of the plane to finish your landing.

So pay attention to the feel of the controls above anything else. And yes, from time to time, just let go completely for a second. If you can't, you would have been better to trim it. The 152 is easy to keep trimmed. The 152 is also exellent in letting you feel how it's flying. Trimming is an important part of feeling the controls. How crisp is the pitch and roll control? Learn to fly it when it's mushy, then you will know when you should speed up a bit. By the time you finally stall the plane, the feel will be so different from normal flying, there'll be no mistaking it! Don't worry!

The Cessna 150 flight manual used to contain instructions on how to land with no elevator control. It was very challenging. If you can find those instructions, brief your instructor, and give it a try (it'll work fine on a 152 as well). Using all of the controls will seem really easy after that!

Don't distract yourself with trying to remember everything all at once - that's what your co-pilot is there for. Crew resource management is just that - your instructor is crew, and a resource to you. Manage the resource, ask for help when it's going to help you learn, or fly safely.

With 5000 hours of general avaition fixed wing flying, I'm now indulging in helicopter instruction. While I'm flying, I tell my instructor what I'm ready for, which for the first 10 hours had him doing all of the radio work and watching for traffic, while I felt the new sensations in the controls, and listened to what the machine was trying to tell me. I'm doing the radio and traffic work now, it came naturally in it's own time. If my instructor asked me to do something which was too much a distraction, I'd tell him, "you do it please, I'm concentrating on....I'll pick that up when I'm ready". He's fine with that, as I have explained that I'm not in a rush, I'm there to learn properly.

It will take you hundreds of hours to become a safe, experienced pilot. So build the time, even if it seems a little out of order at the beginning.

Enjoy all of the well intentioned wisdom in this forum. We all went through it, the frustration is part of the discipline of learning. It's worth it, and you'll have the respect of your peers when you succeed.

Just think of all of the advice you're going to have to write in here decades from now!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:
" then to judge the flare look to the far end of the runway and gently pull back, then keep her flying as long as possible. "


Using the far end of the runway to judge flare height is a guarantee that you will never be able to accurately judge flare height.

Chuck E