View Full Version : Pprune Posting Policy
Dear Ppruners,
Most concerned this morning to find that my post asking a number of questions about a certain school in San Diego has been deleted by the moderators. Apparently this school haven't paid a bill for advertising and are 'persona non grata'.
What's even more annoying is the tone taken by the moderators with me. "Any mention of this school" will be deleted, "no exceptions". Who on Earth do the moderators think they are talking to? Dear me.
Perhaps you are just as sorry as I am that Pprune would delete a perfectly valid post simply because of an internal matter. I mean, don't we live in a free country? Non payment of a bill has nothing directly to do with us save for the point that potential students might be concerned about the reason for the non payment. (i.e. is the school solvent)
Pprune needs to be an open forum or it is utterly pointless.
Birky
If the school is getting free advertising from the thread but hasn't paid it's bill then removing the thread seems fair enough to me, remember this forum isn't a "free country", it's Dannys, he pays the bills and ultimately decides what goes and what stays, you have a choice!
In which case PPrune's owners are no better than the Rupert Murdochs of this world.
Surely, the one and ONLY value PPrune has is the honest input of the users. Without that I may just as well believe all the blurb some of these FTOs put out about themselves.
Just because the BBC didn't like Tony Blair wouldn't give them the right to stop mentioning him in news bulletins. Strikes me that Pprune needs to grow up a bit, no?
Kerosine
5th Jan 2007, 14:10
Where is the line drawn between discussion and advertising?
Do all organisations mentioned pay to remain named?
I'm assuming Mr T of OBA doesn't contribute to his free publicity?
I figure that, good or bad, all comments about any FTO have to be left to market forces.
If a school has disgruntled detractors then, if it is being treated unfairly, it will have supporters too. It's then up to each user to filter through the posts to make up their own mind.
If Pprune want some money from this school, then get it the normal legal way. Don't lose the plot guys! This needs to be a free forum or die.
I fear you may be missing the point, there may be legal wranglings already underway with said school, up until recently OBA could not be mentioned at all due to ongoing legal concerns, the mods/owners will delete posts as they see fit, it is their forum and they take ultimate responsibility for it, if you think they are no better than Rupert Murdoch why don't you start your own free speech forum and see how far you get?
chrisbl
5th Jan 2007, 17:16
In which case PPrune's owners are no better than the Rupert Murdochs of this world.
Just because the BBC didn't like Tony Blair wouldn't give them the right to stop mentioning him in news bulletins. Strikes me that Pprune needs to grow up a bit, no?
Get real - the BBC is a public service so they have to be balanced.
The owners of Pprune have set out their policy - either go with it or get off the forum.
I take it you use the forum for free.:=
ChrisBl
Well, that's your opinion I guess. But then, that's precisely my point. You've been able to express it openly!
Birky
Walk the line
7th Jan 2007, 01:00
I agree. The name of the site should NOT have been removed if the reason given was "non-payment of advertising", thats rediculous.
Unless there are other reasons as mentioned above (legal proceedings etc) - it is contrary to the whole point of an open forum. Unless your point was derogatory or potentially deformation of character it should not have been removed.
So are Bristol, Oxford, OBA, Aerofan, FTE, EFT paying for advertising just to retain a positive thread??!! Come on PPRUNE, let the industry work itself out - dont canalise wannabes to where YOU want them to go!:8
;)
WTL
Walk the line, I would draw your attention to the rules which you agreed to when you registered:
PPRuNe Discretion
PPRuNe and its assigned agents reserves the right to remove a post which does not relate to the topic being discussed in the forum. In addition, PPRuNe reserves the right to organise discussion forums in order to best serve the majority of our members. For example, narrow-interest or minimal activity topics may, at our discretion, be relocated to a more appropriate discussion forum, or deleted entirely. PPRuNe or its assigned agents also reserves the right to prohibit or delete discussions that are thought to violate applicable law or that may be harmful to other members, the websites that comprise PPRuNe or the rights of PPRuNe or others. That said, we cannot ensure prompt removal of offending discussion forum posts. We also reserve the right to remove your membership from you should you violate these Guidelines.
Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for PPRuNe to review all messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that PPRuNe does not actively monitor the contents of all posted messages and is not responsible for any messages posted. PPRuNe does not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and is not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of PPRuNe or any entity associated with PPRuNe.
Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. PPRuNe has the ability to remove objectionable messages and will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if it is determined that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realise that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately, in fact, we may not edit or delete posts that break our rules at all. We have many time constraints on us and cannot guarantee that we will be able to edit or delete posts that break the rules/user agreement. If you do not agree with this then do not view or register for PPRuNe.
Although this PPRuNe does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at PPRuNe reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless PPRuNe, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). We at PPRuNe also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.
Use of the site is at the discretion of the Administration of PPRuNe, and that any use may be terminated by the Administration at any time.
PPRuNe is a provider of an "interactive computer service". Postings on PPRuNe are "provided by another information content provider" and not PPRuNe unless posted by the owner. PPRuNe is not the "publisher or speaker" of any posts in the discussion forums unless posted by the owner. The user agrees as a condition of registering at PPRuNe to be truthful in regard to all information given during the registration process, to use the site as per the instructions, not to disclose their password to others for use, and that the site has a license (permission) for use of anything the user submits or posts to the site.
scroggs
7th Jan 2007, 16:53
Read and inwardly digest the above rules of engagement here on Pprune. There is no 'right' of free speech here; this is Danny's front room, and you behave yourselves as he demands when you accept his hospitality. There are many factors at work in a site of this size, and we are neither able nor willing to explain all of them to you. You have to accept the place as it is. That includes the fact that certain organisations and individuals are persona non grata. The explanation I or any other moderator may give may well be a gross simplification of the facts; in essence, the reasons for any loss of appearance privileges here are none of your business.
Anyone who has a problem with Danny's house rules are, of course, welcome to take up the argument with the man himself. Until and unless he changes those rules, I will apply them as he dictates.
Scroggs
Oh dear...
Let's get this straight. PPrune is an important forum and for that the organisers/moderators or whatever should be pleased with themselves.
However, ironically, it strikes me that some of the moderators aren't aware of how much users like me do value its existence and its erstwhile openness. Otherwise they wouldn't be quite so careless about the ethics involved with deleting users' input.
Anyway, now I have got that compliment out of the way, I think I may have run out of enthusiasm for this thread and a little worn out by the pompous self-importance too. To quote Mr Scroggs...
"Read and inwardly digest the above rules of engagement here on Pprune. There is no 'right' of free speech here; this is Danny's front room, and you behave yourselves as he demands when you accept his hospitality".
Talk about delusions of grandieur! I'm off to 'behave' myself somewhere else!
Birky
Don't forget your tea cup Birky, you will probably need it wherever you go next.:}
Wee Weasley Welshman
8th Jan 2007, 07:18
Yeah, and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out...
WWW
pchappo
8th Jan 2007, 08:51
its simple - if you dont like the rules - go and find yourself another forum where you can post by your own rules...
Or
try setting a forum up yourself and run it ......
itsbrokenagain
8th Jan 2007, 13:56
Also I think that the moderators know the reality of the posts here whether good or bad.. that is they create publicity for the school in question.
One school I used to work for that is thankfully now deceased which was on the Florida East Coast would actually get more inquiries and bookings when bad things were written on pprune about it! And there was lots of bad publicity!!
frostbite
8th Jan 2007, 14:27
I find it mildly amusing that none of the contributors (aside from the mods) to this thread have seen fit to financially contribute to the site.
Come on guys! You can do it for just a fiver.
Baboon Boy
8th Jan 2007, 16:28
Is it me, or has mcgoo taken it upon himself to become some kind of self apointed guardian of PPRUNE? If lost count of the number of times he as directed posters to "use the search facility", etc in a very authoritative manner. See here for an example: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258927
Mcgoo, are you a moderator in disguise?
or do you have some kind of personal connection with the owners of this forum?
If neither then you are a very sad man.
Baboon Boy, I have hardly ever said "use the search facility" whether it be in an "authoritative manner" or not, I do however while using the forum put a link to the sticky thread if the answer to a posters question is in there, it's called helping and is the point of a forum surely and must be a better response than no reply at all, as for your example I posted a link to the age thread that at the time was three threads down from the original question, it takes about 2 seconds to direct someone to the link, wheres the issue?
captain_rossco
8th Jan 2007, 17:07
always giving a helping hand mcgoo, and we're grateful for it.!:ok:
Actually, you may get some sort of pm re: navigation in the not too distant, am plodding through it now, and by plodding i mean crawling!
Rossco
Mr Grumps
8th Jan 2007, 19:08
Whilst only a lowly engineer newbie, I highly value the work that moderators and administrators do. I run a forum for a charity and whilst this is not a well known one, there are still problems with spammers etc trying to put totally inappropriate posts on the site. As it is effectively a source of information, the accuracy of post has to be good. I don't have the problem of advertisers but I do supply links to other sites etc and if these prove to be a bit dodgy then they are deleted. As other people have said 'its Danny's house and his rules. If you don't like them don't post.' The same rules apply to I think all forum sites.
Kerosine
8th Jan 2007, 21:31
Maybe it gets taken for granted as being there to use almost unconditionally, as does the rest of the internet. A faceless webpage free for all.
Is Danny some mafia boss? Does he post? Is he famous? :hmm:
Walk the line
8th Jan 2007, 22:47
Ok, the original issue was about PPRUNE's removal of a San Diego Schools' name from the site.
While I understand PPRUNE and its administrators have every right to pick and choose threads they wish to remain active - I dont think it's correct for threads that may actually benefit wannabes to be removed, however, I accept that sometimes (legal reasons etc) it has to be done. The original point dealt with the payment of advertising fees;
Anyone who is familiar with internet advertisig will know that everytime someone clicks a link (sometimes in the boxes beside your name) the linking website makes money, this is known as CPC (Cost per click). This advertising I understand, and non-payment would definitely warrant removing the schools' link from the site.
However, I feel that removing a thread that contains information relating to a school should be aired without prejudice. I feel removing potentially beneficial threads go against the whole principal of a forum.
BUT - I signed up for it, I really like PPRUNE and it is a valuable resource to both professional pilots and wannabes....so I will lump it and continue visiting and contributing with the same zeal......
:ok:
WTL
As a relatively new Prooner, I found it most helpful when I was guided around the site by others who had been using PPRuNe longer than I had. Instead of feeling threatened by their "authoritative" comments or choosing to be insulted by them I found that their directions were helpful, increased my 'proon operating efficiency' and without exception given in a friendly manner.
So I say, congratulations Mcgoo for your community minded attitude, thanks.:ok:
Baboon Boy, to you I say:
... are you a moderator in disguise?
or do you have some kind of personal connection with the owners of this forum?
If neither then you are a very sad man.
Off you go, back up ya tree mate.:E :}
scroggs
9th Jan 2007, 08:45
Ok, the original issue was about PPRUNE's removal of a San Diego Schools' name from the site.
While I understand PPRUNE and its administrators have every right to pick and choose threads they wish to remain active - I dont think it's correct for threads that may actually benefit wannabes to be removed, however, I accept that sometimes (legal reasons etc) it has to be done. The original point dealt with the payment of advertising fees;
Anyone who is familiar with internet advertisig will know that everytime someone clicks a link (sometimes in the boxes beside your name) the linking website makes money, this is known as CPC (Cost per click). This advertising I understand, and non-payment would definitely warrant removing the schools' link from the site.
However, I feel that removing a thread that contains information relating to a school should be aired without prejudice. I feel removing potentially beneficial threads go against the whole principal of a forum.
BUT - I signed up for it, I really like PPRUNE and it is a valuable resource to both professional pilots and wannabes....so I will lump it and continue visiting and contributing with the same zeal......
:ok:
WTL
You have no idea of the matters that precipitated the decisions you refer to, and thus are not qualified to make any comment about them. Suffice to say that it is nothing to do with CPC advertising.
The fact is that any organisation that is mentioned on these forums is effectively getting free advertising, even when the commentary is unfavourable - there is no such thing as bad publicity. We have no problem with that for the most part; the exchange of information is more important, most of the time. However, where our efforts are abused by an individual or organisation, we reserve the right to remove all and any mention of that individual or organisation, and thus deny them the oxygen of publicity via these forums.
It is no different to what you may do in your own house - if you refuse to discuss, say, politics in your house, then all your house guests must live with that policy or leave. They have no say in the rules which you set in your house, no matter how unreasonable those rules are. We are not quite so dictatorial - most of the time - but this is Danny's 'house', and what he says, goes. There is no right of free speech, and no right of appeal.
Scroggs
Kerosine
9th Jan 2007, 13:48
As much as the powers that be wish these discussions didn't arise, I can't help but laugh at the whole bloody thing.
Good on you guys for having your hissy fits!
A much satisfied PPRuNe user,
Dave
ps. mcgoo, hope things work out between you baboon boy
Keygrip
9th Jan 2007, 18:14
Apologies to those of you who posted intelligent or witty stuff in there. It all became irrelevant after weeding out the absolute garbage.
Considering the thread was about "House Rules" do any of you really think that the majority of that garbage was worth writing in a "Professional Pilot Training" forum?
scroggs
10th Jan 2007, 17:27
For further insight into Pprune's policy, I refer you to this post, made by Pprune Towers (one of the two owners of the site) in Military Aircrew today:
Tigs,
You've made a series of assumptions in the above post. They may well appear logical to you. They appeared logical to the guys in 2001 who claimed our database of addresses had a base value of several million.
We weren't interested then and we aren't interested now.
You guys aren't customers. Don't kid yourself. You are users.
We don't give a stuff regarding advertisers. No sales people - none. We got suckered into that sales thing a couple of years ago and ended up with the site being run to pay the sales people. I've very glad to say we fired them a year ago. Advertisers now come to us under our terms. No pay by the click. No forum targeting. No one on commission. We set a price - they pay it or the ad doesn't appear. Just in case you can't read between the lines we don't like ads - they are a pain in the arse. Get the site back down to 10,000 users and we can do without ads like we used to.
We do our own thing and as the Australians and Jetblasters have discovered we have no qualms simply shutting down a forum until folks get the point.
Military Aviation threads stay. Charity threads go. The political testiculation goes. We put our time and money into running a set of aviation forums for the past ten years. We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully. We run the site for our pleasure not yours. You want to play political strategist or polemicist go elsewhere.
That is our choice and not yours. Please understand this. We don't care, we simply don't care if you use the site or not. As I said at the outset your assumptions are wrong. This isn't a commercial site, we've never borrowed a penny to fund it. We have no need to 'stroke' customers and advertisers because both come to us.
And so to those assumptions again Tigs - by everything you understand regarding commercial reality and customer service this site should soon be a wasteland. However, a search on my posts will find a 6 year history of taking the cyberbaseball bat to forums. The tumbleweed has still not appeared despite such long term lack of respect by Danny and I. It is extremely annoying but it is our site, it is private and while we thoroughly enjoy the pissed off going on the blanket with protest posts and threads there is only one thing to remember - the house always wins.
Sum up: Charity threads get chopped, non service threads go, political science wankfests for apprentice leader writers go. It's a huge internet out there and loads of other places are desperate for non aviation stuff.
Regards again,
Rob
scroggs
chrisbl
10th Jan 2007, 21:46
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant and that is meant sincerely.