BBC story on poor Armed Forces Accommodation

[AonP]

An interesting story currently been run by the BBC on a story which will ring true to all those still serving:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6229393.stm
Also some good example pictures from a large transport base on the British Armed Forces Federation website:
http://www.baff.org.uk/Home.html
I wont hold my breath for action or new money though!

Where is generally accepted to have the worst accommodation in the RAF, I would guess that it isnt at one of the stns up for closure?

[LFFC]

Things really must be bad for the general to be quite so vocal:

BBC News Website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6229393.stm) The adjutant-general, Lt Gen Freddie Viggers, told BBC News the Army must now "fight our corner, in defence, to get our families what they deserve".

Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".

[Polikarpov]

"Today" are running with this at the moment and there'll be more features on it between now and 09:00.

[Saintsman]

What a good idea it was, selling all the MQs to a Japanese Bank. That's got to be the way to have top class housing.... :hmm:

[Python21]

Have just been listening to the Today programme and the wife from Brize Norton who was interviewed spoke very well putting the case better than any senior officer. Her husband is OOA and leaves in 6 months with the poor accommodation being a contributing factor in his decision to leave. She also complained about the lack of welfare facilities.

[AlanM]

Oh no..... I can see a few extra bull nights being offered as "encouragement"!

Seriously though - it is simply not acceptable in this day and age. I can imagine units being constantly overseas and returning to unused accomodation as a problem.

Top brass.... get it sorted.

[mbga9pgf]

Things really must be bad for the general to be quite so vocal:



Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".

Believe it or not, rentals have been dropping nationwide now for some time. So I never understood where they got last year's 15% rise from, that is, unless they know CPI/RPI is actually much higher than the ONS is lettign on that is... :hmm:

[snakepit]

I remember when the Gov sold off all MQs with promises of "This will raise 500 million which will be spent on the remaining stock." :)

Its been a long time since then and I haven't spent one night anywhere in the "improved accommadation" yet, just the same old crap.:*

The cost has, not surprisingly, jumped to 1 billion now. I think it would be a safe bet that before anything is done it will cost 100 billion.:ugh:

You aint seen me right.

[BEagle]

I recall a bunch of us having a go at the 'Families Officer' in the OM over 20 years ago about the dreadful state of the housing at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome. Many pre-fabs in use as AMQs - they'd been flown in by the US in the mid-60s with an assumed 10 year life span. I see from the photos that they're still in use. The OMQ patch was an eyesore - all the Families Officer would say was "It's to scale".

In the OM, brown, tepid water dripped from the taps. Many of the 'transit' rooms still bore the irremovable stains 23 years later. At one Mess Meeting we were told to shut up when we objected to proposals to spend hundreds on new curtains for the 'Ladies Room' (virtually never used) - we said that we wanted the single rooms fixed first! Fortunately I moved out to a local town as soon as I could!

At one of his Waddington briefings, ACM Sir John Allison told us of some difficulties he'd had with DHE and its 'customer service'. "Chaps - I'm not saying that I deserve any special treatment, but if that's the way they treat people in general, I hate to think what it must be like for those just starting their time!"

Let's hope we see those who defend our country's interests being given the homes-for-heroes they all deserve. No 'key performance indicators', 'targets' or other 'pseudo biz-speak' - just money and tangible action!

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, we stayed in one of those concrete boxes a good number of years ago. Our sleep was disturbed when our host turned over in bed to get his hankerchief, and that before he blew his nose.

He was not in the same bed or even the same room but next door!

[Proletarian]

Whilst I completely agree that insufficient money has been spent over many, many years on services single and families accommodation (S&FA), anyone who served in the forces over the last 30 years or so also knows that often considerable variations existed in the standard of the S&FA considered acceptable within the three services.

In my experience, generally speaking, the RAF seemed willing to spend/invest more on improving/maintaining their S&FA than the other two services. The RAF has always wanted to have a 'follow the flag' policy for servicemen and servicewomen's families and at least made some effort to provide appropriate pro-rata accommodation. Sadly, this was not always achieved and some particular eyesores stand out. For instance, the appalling concrete prefabs at Carterton should have been demolished years ago, but still continue to be an utter blot on the landscape. I believe they were built in the mid-1960s and were only expected to last for 30 years. Having lived in one of the 'better' ones for a number of years and watched the continual deterioration of the others, I have every sympathy for the serviceman's wife who spoke so well on the Today programme this morning about the problems she has encountered. When the Tory party decided to sell off the defence estate to a Japanese bank, I don't think anyone really believed things would improve, unsurprisingly with few exceptions they have actually got worse.

Of course there were often considerable variations and some units, particularly the ones about to close, often had much better S&FA than another fairly adjacent unit; unfortunately projects and plans usually work in the long term, whilst policy decisions, often driven by internal MOD politics, seem to work in the short term. Budgets can only stretch so far and priorities must be established, but however bad some S&FA was at RAF units, IMHO it was generally of a considerably higher standard than that occupied by the other two services. The Navy were at least fairly honest about their approach to families accommodation - in an ideal world they would prefer not to have any. Consequently, they have had a long-established assisted house purchase scheme, which encourages their personnel to get into the housing market as soon as possible, whilst at the same time reducing the requirement for families accommodation and much of the attendant service family social support. What families accommodation the Navy had available was often poor and consequently served as an even greater incentive for individuals to purchase their own home.

Sadly, IMHO many of the problems with the current standard of much the S&FA occupied by the Army are almost entirely their own fault. Whilst I accept that many old barracks were in a poor state of repair and need to be demolished and replaced, this was not always the case. Over a number of years, many RAF units, where considerable sums of money had previously been invested over a number of years to improve the standard of the S&FA, were handed over to the Army. Sadly, the policy of continuing to invest in improving/maintaining this estate often appears to have been curtailed and the result has been a gradual deterioration in their overall quality - particularly in the single accommodation for the junior ranks.

Having worked alongside the Army and seen how some of the troops behave, I can fully understand why so much Army single accommodation is so bad - put simply, they seem all too keen to trash the place at every opportunity. Many service personnel who have served down in the Falklands and lived in the 'Death Star' will have seen the different service attitudes at first hand, particularly if they take a walk down the far end to the Army accommodation.

Previous governments going back many, many years have continually failed to ensure that the Defence budget included sufficient money 'ring-fenced' to improve the standard of all S&FA throughout the services. But the Army should also be honest enough to admit that their own attitude to improving/maintaining S&FA, particularly for the single junior ranks, has often left something to be desired, often the result of the way it has been treated by the occupants themselves.

Proletarian

[WhiteOvies]

It certainly seems to vary considerably but I have seen some fairly recent improvement in accommodation, e.g. new Wardroom at Yeovilton, new Junior ranks accom at Wittering. All to the 'Travel Inn' standard which is pleasant enough but, as pointed out by a builder on the BBC news website, only designed to last about 10 years with paper thin walls and the cheapest fittings. I wonder how long MoD thinks they'll last? :hmm: The old blocks at Wittering are not as bad as the phots on the beeb but seeing missing tiles and hanging light fittings in the showers was not unusual at COs inspection time.
Not so sure about MQs though. Have seen very nice new ones (again at Yeovilton) and some pretty tatty old ones (at Gosport). The RAF MQs seem to vary from OK down to adequate but my experience is limited, most appears to have sold off already turning the patches into estates.

The worst accom I have ever seen was an Army Barrack block at a camp near Boscombe Down. Should have been condemned decades ago.:*

[mary_hinge]

Now on Jeremy Vine show, Radio 2

[moggiee]

Now on Jeremy Vine show, Radio 2
The whole phone in on Radio 5 this morning was about this subject.

Isn't it nice to see the senior officers standing up for the troops for a change? Does anyone else remember Sir Mike Graydon's embarrassing climbdown a few days after he dared open his trap about 10-15 years ago?

[Talking Radalt]

I recall a newly posted oik turning up from recruit training to hold at "a certain" unit awaiting trade training. Upon being shown a PortaKabin* and being told that was home until further notice, said oik simply threw his holdall over his shoulder, walked to the nearest station and jumped on the next train home.:ok:
*Other mobile office and accommodation building solutions are available

[Brain Potter]

The poor standard of service accomodation has seen a rising number of folks decide to move into private accomodation if they are at all able. This trend is also influenced by the generally widening gulf between what the MoD considers acceptable and the increased expectations of the wider population. However, compare and contrast the increase in rental charges of SFA (above inflation) with the stagnation/reduction in allowances associated with living in private accomodation. For example, Home-to-Duty has been reduced under JPA (18 vice 20 journeys per month), and in no way reflects the deliberate government policy to increase the cost of motoring for "environmental" purposes. I'm sure that pay-per-mile road pricing will make this situation much worse. Furthermore, the refund of legal expenses for private moves has remained capped at the ridiculous figure of £5000 for years and in no way reflects the true cost of moving house, particularly once over the 3% stamp duty threshold - as more and more people are discovering. This allowance doesn't even appear to be linked to RPI, never mind to the massive increases in the cost of housing.

Before anyone says anything so trite and intellectually deficient as "you don't have to live out" - just consider what would happen if everyone who currently lives in private accomodation exercised their right to be provided with SFA/SLA. The accomodation system would collapse under the strain and the cost to the MoD in excess rent payments would be enormous. In fact, everyone who lives "out" is doing the MoD a massive favour. A cynic might suggest that the MoD might actually prefer to let the poor standard of public accomodation continue to drive people into private accomodation as a cost-saving measure.

[Top Right]

Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".

Does anyone know where the policy resides for our continuing rent increases? Or is it held secretly by Civil Servants? We keep being told that our rent should be comparable with civilian comparators, but with which civilians are we being compared?

If it is public sector civilians, who are the ones that undergo moves every 2 to 3 years for the balance/mix of routine postings/regimental moves and career-progression changes of role/location?

If it is commercial sector, then they can choose where they live according to their pay and relocation schemes.

Perhaps I am overly optimistic to expect MOD is comparing like with like ...:ugh:

Does anyone believe we could get to the expected bottom line of SFA rental targets through an FoI question?

[LFFC]

Does anyone know where the policy resides for our continuing rent increases? Or is it held secretly by Civil Servants? We keep being told that our rent should be comparable with civilian comparators, but with which civilians are we being compared?
:ugh:


It's all decided by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. Here's the full quote from their last report, which can be found on the MOD website (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/6D265526-082E-41F7-B959-CFDA341C3CBA/0/afprb_rpt_2006.pdf):


Accommodation
5.2 In line with our remit on maintaining broad comparability, we consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators. The Service accommodation rental charges, however, are intentionally set below market rates for comparable civilian accommodation to reflect the inherent disadvantages associated with living in Service accommodation. These disadvantages include the lack of choice, lack of security of tenure on postings or on leaving the Armed Forces, lack of an option to buy and restrictions on decorating or making other changes. We are also mindful of the fact that there are considerable advantages to the Services of having personnel located close to, or on, bases.


Incidentally, I see that the worst quality families' accommodation for the most junior soldiers/airmen increased in price by 4.7% last year! Their best quality quarters increased by 9.3%!

[Antique Driver]

Glad to see the media highlighting the poor standard of service accommodation.

MQs at a certain secret Wiltshire airbase are in a similar state of repair - I have heard reports of families waiting for up to 18 months for general repairs to be carried out, shoddy and even dangerous workmanship. A colleague of mine with two small children was left with no heating or hot water for two weeks over the Christmas period even though temperatures dropped below freezing!

I know many will say that you can always buy your own house - but how many serviceman can afford their own property close to their place of work? Why should we spend money on a property we only live in for 6 months a year?

Yes our rent probably is lower than the civilian market but I still pay around £400 per month (plus uitilities) for my antiquated, un-modernised and below standard FMQ. There is no money for improvements - I have a kitchen, bathroom and plumbing that date from the 1950's and have constantly been told that they will be improved when the budget allows -so far I have been waiting 8 years!!

We expect a decent level of housing, nothing special - just up-to date, warm and with working amenities, for our families while we risk life and limb for our country! Is this too much too ask?

If our lords and masters are worried about recruiting and retention they should start to pay more attention to our poor living standards.

Why waste £30 billion on a Trident replacement? - use that to improve our kit and accommodation and maybe even sell a few Typhoons so we can all have new kitchens, bathrooms, carpets, cheaper utility bills and housing of an acceptable standard.:)

[Cornerstone958]

This is not a new problem. When posted to a well known training establishment near Wendover in the 60's my MQ was condemned by the SMO. It did result in a move but the only decent accomodation that we have lived in was in Germany during 26 years sevice.:bored:

[Aeronut]

Well covered on the lunchtime BBC news but what annoyed me was the reporter interviewing the anonymous brize wifey claimed that service personnel stay "virtually rent free" perpetuating the myth that its all free accommodation!
Its highly variable but an MQ with a garage costs about £300 and we pay a probable national average £115 per moth in lieu of council tax for the worst possible housing.

[SirToppamHat]

Proletarian makes a good point about the differing priorities (and funding levels) applied by the 3 services to their own areas of interest. However, the DHE (now DE(HD)) have been running the show on the FQ side for quite some time now and we ought to be seeing some standardisation.

That said, I have nothing but contempt for Portillo and his lackeys, who allowed the vast majority of the MQ estate to be sold for peanuts in the mid-90s, and in many areas this is biting us in the arse - especially with the policy of releasing a percentage (10%?) of the FQs we have each year. Stn cdrs are coming under pressure at some units to identify FQs they don't need.

When I was at High Wycombe, the Stn Cdr (a wg cdr) was so fed up with the DHE that he personally took responsibility for the air ranks and gp capts so they didn't have to deal with DHE themselves. Anyone else had to report stuff in the usual way. Came home one day to find our oil-fired boiler had been condemned during a routine safety inspection as it was leaking carbon monoxide into the house (which explained my kids' headaches). DHE refused to replace it for 6 weeks because we had an immersion heater and coal fire - hardly practical with 3 children, one aged 2! When I mentioned it to the 1* he said he had never had any problems with DHE - I wonder why?

On the SLA side, the MoD will point to Project SLAM, which was intended to provide modern accommodation for our people, but has cost an absolute fortune (I have heard several figures varying from £30K to £70K per room). If anyone has the correct figures, please post them, I am sure they will be of interest, but considering the MoD already own the land (said to be more than 50% of the cost of a new house), how on earth did they come up with these costs? They would have been better building 'off-the-shelf' Travel Lodges. I am sure these would have been more than acceptable for the the vast majority of ranks!

Fundamentally, though, the MoD is broke, so don't expect much - it's nice to hear someone at the top speak out though.

STH

[Aeronut]

Did the British Armed Forces Federation initiate/escalate this story having written to the Times 29 Dec (accoridng to their website)?

If so - well done - I had wondered what the £30 to join would be used for.

[downsizer]

2006 and I have no shower in my antique in wilts! Also the wiring is that old and out of date when I enquired about getting one fitted privately the plumber/electrictian wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

[ProfessionalStudent]

STH

I don't know the figures, but I was at dinner recently with a chap who sold the likes of SLAM to the MoD. The plans they offered originally were the same they had sold across the country to Universities, the NHS etc for their accommodation needs, which on the whole are similar to our SLA and there are several standards to choose from.

He said that the MoD refused them all and opted for a "bespoke" version, to the point where some rooms were only a foot or so bigger in any dimension. To this, his company rubbed their collective hands together and charged somewhere between 50 and 100% more.

How accurate these figures are, one can only guess, but if you want a wardrobe, an off-the-shelf, flat-pack one from MFI will cost you £110, but a bespoke version just a little bigger to your own specs made by a chippy will cost you in the region of £500-700.

The MoD paying over the odds for little or no extra tangible benefit? Not in my lifetime :ugh:

[Top Right]

LFFC,

Thanks for your prompt pointer towards the AFPRB report - very useful.

But I thought the AFPRB undertakes its review annually whilst there is an undercurrent of increasing our SFA rent over a period of time to bring it in line with civilian comparables. So are these continued rent increases just annual "good ideas (recommendations)" from AFPRB, or is there a greater MOD policy to keep ramping up the prices? Or am I completely wrong and the AFPRB sets policy as well as "recommendations"?

If I were a cynic I'd be thinking they want to keep pushing up the prices to force more of us out and sell as much as possible.

[MarkD]

Why waste £30 billion on a Trident replacement? - use that to improve our kit and accommodation and maybe even sell a few Typhoons so we can all have new kitchens, bathrooms, carpets, cheaper utility bills and housing of an acceptable standard.:)
Except as you well know the "savings" from Trident abolition won't go to such things, will they?

[Jacks Down]

SLAM is indeed hugley expensive - our FMS people have been talking about 60-70k per bedspace. As the 'owner' of a SLAM block I can vouch for previous posters' claims that despite the huge cost it was definitely built by the lowest bidder - although superficially excellent the fixtures started falling off in the first week of occupation and in 10 year's time it's going to be pretty tatty. Once the current projects are finished there aren't going to be any more, so MoD are being disingenuous when they imply that all will be rosy when the project is over. When SLAM was offered my station asked if they could have the money but project manage ourselves through local contractors to get a far better deal. No prizes for guessing the answer to that one!

No money has been spent on the FQs on my unit for several years and slowly but surely they are deteriorating as a result. As someone who has been a landlord of a property as well as a DHE tenant I don't know how they get away with the service they provide. I can't help but feel that the estate is being deliberately run down do reduce occupancy levels to the point where it can be argued that quaters aren't needed any more and the whole lot can be sold off to civilians. Or pehaps the more rational explanation is that the original sell-off was an ill-conceived plan to raise a quick buck with insufficient regard to the long term consequences, but now that MoD realise this it's all too late and too expensive to do anything about it.

At least it's encouraging to see this becoming an issue in the media, perhaps we'll get a hastily thrown together initiative to paper over the cracks in the next few weeks...

[tacr2man]

You only need to look at EX USAF Upper Heyford to see how to waste an asset. All the single quarters were modernised when the USAF was there, better than Holiday Inn , Modern hospital, bowling alley the works all just sat there empty for several years rotting away.
No need for an extra runway at heathrow heyfords is used for parking cars. :confused:


Thames valley tonight more on the Brize Accom at 18:00 approx

[Top Right]

Tacr2man,

You make a good point, but if UH was the same format as Bentwaters and Woodbridge (ie a small piece of the USofA) then there would have been serious infrastructure issues with taking it on. Back in '92 there was the beginning of a plan to relocate many deployable units (and maybe even the Harrier Force, since in those days they were the "deployable" FJs) to Bentwaters/Woodbridge - but despite the initial "bravo, good idea chaps" the simple fact that these small pieces of USofA were fully wired with US power (110 volts) and US telecomms meant that the exorbitant infrastructure costs to bring them to UK standards were a key factor in binning the plan.

[tacr2man]

The private sector who bought up and sold on the Married quarters seemed to have sorted the problem and made a profit.
There is another example just off the A52 about 20 red brick, I would think officers quarters empty Wharton is it?

At heyford youve got the london- birmingham rail line just off the end of the runway (almost parallel) and the M40 J10 about 3 miles

[air pig]

Ask the question ?? Would an MP live in the accomodation for two years, if yes ok then, if NO why is he or she not complaining about the situation. HM Forces should not have to accept anything less than the man in the street.

Call the local enviromental health, building inspectors and the Health and Safety Inspectorate. Crown Immunity was abolished for the NHS some years ago, was it not the same for the Armed Forces ???? Most organisations esp the HSE will accept an anonymous tip off, or ask someone like BAFF to contact them.

Service personnel need the same conditions as the rest of the population living outside the fence, the vast majority who do not have to put their lives on the line on operations, and still have to worry about their family at home.

[hobie]

Looking at some of the photo's this morning I can't relate any of them to RAF Married Quarters that we ever occupied (Hullavington .... Wahn .... St. Eval .... Biggin hill .... Northolt) ...... handing over a Quarter to the Barrack Warden was a fearfull project if you tried to get away with anything less than perfection ..... everything had to be spotless ...... not a bin or pot missing, the Lino like a mirror, etc etc ...... if something needed decorating we did it .....

I remember my Grandfather retiring (ex Sqd Ldr) to become Barrack Warden in Locking ...... a fearfull gentleman indeed ..... :p

[Tracey Island]

Strange how when everybody moves out of a MQ they're always "immaculate" yet on moving in they're a complete heap..?

[Roadster280]

Sadly .....

Sadly, IMHO many of the problems with the current standard of much the S&FA occupied by the Army are almost entirely their own fault.

Sadly, the policy of continuing to invest in improving/maintaining this estate often appears to have been curtailed and the result has been a gradual deterioration in their overall quality - particularly in the single accommodation for the junior ranks.

Having worked alongside the Army and seen how some of the troops behave, I can fully understand why so much Army single accommodation is so bad - put simply, they seem all too keen to trash the place at every opportunity.

Proletarian - Firstly my apologies for selectively quoting you, however the length of the entire post would be excessive.

Secondly, the ex-RAF accom being handed over to the Army is in itself approximately 70 years old. RAF Colerne for example, was built at the same time as RAF Scampton, and even in RAF hands, Scampton is a decaying pit by all accounts. Topcliffe is a shed of a place. Dishforth was largely rebuilt for the AAC, Upavon vastly changed, North Luffenham another RAF backwater, the list goes on. It is not as though the RAF has relinquished decent accomodation; granted because it didn't have any in the first place.

Thirdly, trashing the accomodation at every opportunity is 1) in keeping with the finest traditions of the Service (blazing pianos anyone?), 2) billed to the miscreants, or collectively billed as barrack damages and most importantly 3), mildew on a decaying ceiling is hardly in the same bracket as puking in the ablutions.

[hobie]

Strange how when everybody moves out of a MQ they're always "immaculate" yet on moving in they're a complete heap..?

Sincerely hope my honesty is not being questioned ..... :cool:

I can't say we ever moved into anything much lower in standard than we would be happy to hand over .... perhaps today, the post of Barrack Warden has gone to the dogs .... :confused:

[L J R]

Hobie,

But the advent of the digital camera has saved us hundreds on cleaning at move out. 'Go to the Video Tape' is proof is that we ONLY bring the place up to the standard we were given on move in, dated pictures to prove it!


...and finally, I am getting pis**ed off at those in the public that appear to believe SFA/SLA etc are free or at 'reduced' rates. When will MoD's corporate comms or PR (or whatever they are called) actually re-educate the critical public of their perceptions of the military family?. The thread on the BBC feed-back line supports the view held by a large portion of the icecream licking public. As I understand it, a consideration in setting the military wage (X factor is it??) takes into account the so called reduced housing costs associated with those who may have to utilsed the DHE (or whatever they are called today) service.

[It's Not Working]

Hobie

I remember my Grandfather retiring (ex Sqd Ldr) to become Barrack Warden in Locking ...... a fearfull gentleman indeed ..... :p

There was a delight of a Barrack Warden there in the mid-80s, if my memory serves he was Irish. Was that Grandfather? Be straight with him and he'd back you to the hilt while turning a Nelsonian eye if necessary. BS him and you paid.

[snapper41]

2006 and I have no shower in my antique in wilts!

I lived in Brize OMQ prefabs in the mid-90s, and had no shower. I asked DHE that, if I paid for a shower unit (and I would even leave it there when I moved), would they fit it? Silly me - of course they wouldn't. The rumour when we lived there was that the prefabs had been 'lifed' to 1985, so were 10 years overdue for replacement even back then. The airmen's flats were/are apalling, but having recently seen the AMQ patch at Digby, it's a close second.:yuk:

[FOMere2eternity]

Hobie,
...and finally, I am getting pis**ed off at those in the public that appear to believe SFA/SLA etc are free or at 'reduced' rates. When will MoD's corporate comms or PR (or whatever they are called) actually re-educate the critical public of their perceptions of the military family?. The thread on the BBC feed-back line supports the view held by a large portion of the icecream licking public. As I understand it, a consideration in setting the military wage (X factor is it??) takes into account the so called reduced housing costs associated with those who may have to utilsed the DHE (or whatever they are called today) service.

Perhaps we should have TAXPAYER emblazoned above the other pocket of our greens or maybe a seasonal message to confirm/deny the latest story? Or maybe with our new fascination with badges we could express our mood by wearing a selection: black house = not happy with AFQ, red £ sign = getting the operational dosh etc.

[Crashed&Burned]

As a broad rule of thumb, building and fitting out a room in a Travelodge is around £25k. Why does the MOD pay £70k for accommodation of a much lower standard. Beats me.:ugh:
C&B

[FOMere2eternity]

Travelodge rooms don't have to undergo the rigours of testing at Boscombe Down, to ensure our accommodation is unfit for purpose all around the world. :hmm:

[Melchett01]

STH said Fundamentally, though, the MoD is broke .....

Ok, I can just about cope with that fact. But one thing I cannot get my head round in any way shape or form is this:

We, the British taxpayers are paying more and more and more in taxes. Whenever anybody dares to put up the idea about tax cuts or mention a review of spending (I seem to remember this was the automatic response to the recent suggestions about cutting inheritance tax), they automatically go on the offensive about how much extra they are spending on various things - NHS, education, defence, CT/CN etc and which services would we like decimating to fund such a cut.

So, with all these billions being poured into various projects, here is my question: Mr Blair, would you care to explain why, when you are pouring billions into various projects, are all the organisations that have to work with this administration fundamentally bankrupt? Just what exactly are you doing with OUR money? Would you care to explain or would you prefer an investigation into misappropriation of funds?

[Talking Radalt]

Why does the MOD pay £70k for accommodation of a much lower standard.

Maybe it's something to do with the phrase "General/Air Commodore/Rear Admiral* How about a place on the board of directors when you retire from that tedious military lark?" :hmm:
*Delete as applicable

[airborne_artist]

I was a Midshipmite at Leeming in 79, as the RN ran EFTS there for a while. We lived in the SEECO (sp?) huts that were an annexe to the OM. They were made of sheet asbestos, and you could here the guy two rooms down turn a page. They were effing cold in winter, and effing hot in summer. The only benefits to living in them was a) we were away from the grown-ups and b) we paid C 50% of the normal rate.

They were prefabs built to last 5 years max in WW2 - and we weren't fighting any wars then, let alone two at once, so where is the money going to come from now?

Miraculously when HRH the Duke of York went through, space was found in the OM for the dark blue. :E

[Bus429]

I'm not a military man but, like most, I support the military, irrespective of the premise of Tony Blair's toadying excursions.
I'm appalled that the situation affecting your accommodation; what were your senior officers doing to allow the situation to degrade to such an extent? (It cannot have happened overnight).
However, the buck stops with Blair; he talks big, does little. Have you received any of the equipment he promised late last year? He is a despicable man.

[L J R]

Bus,

I think your PM stated something along the lines that the military would get everything they ASKED for. Does anyone actually know what has been ASKED for.

....I put it to you that little has been asked for. Just lots of winghing.

[Melchett01]

think your PM stated something along the lines that the military would get everything they ASKED for. Does anyone actually know what has been ASKED for.

....I put it to you that little has been asked for. Just lots of winghing

What, apart from the extra helicopters for Afghanistan? And the extra mortar rounds for Afghanistan last summer?

But then again, we've been asking for a new govt for the past few years as well - didn't get that either, so I guess we shouldn't be so surprised :ugh:

[WIWOWessex]

Proletarian - Firstly my apologies for selectively quoting you, however the length of the entire post would be excessive.

Secondly, the ex-RAF accom being handed over to the Army is in itself approximately 70 years old. RAF Colerne for example, was built at the same time as RAF Scampton, and even in RAF hands, Scampton is a decaying pit by all accounts. Topcliffe is a shed of a place. Dishforth was largely rebuilt for the AAC, Upavon vastly changed, North Luffenham another RAF backwater, the list goes on. It is not as though the RAF has relinquished decent accomodation; granted because it didn't have any in the first place.

Thirdly, trashing the accomodation at every opportunity is 1) in keeping with the finest traditions of the Service (blazing pianos anyone?), 2) billed to the miscreants, or collectively billed as barrack damages and most importantly 3), mildew on a decaying ceiling is hardly in the same bracket as puking in the ablutions.

When the Army took over Abingdon in the mid 90s they ripped out all of thenewly installed single man JR accomodation and installed multi-man rooms. All of the OR MQs had recently benefitted from fitted carpets but the army insisted that the oiks could not have that and ripped up a foot wide strip around each room.

I agree that the RAF have for the most part got some (relatively) decent accom but that which they have got has been looked after within the increasingly parsimonious budget. Because of the Army "move the regiment lock stock and barrel every 2-3 years" approach to postings, the inclination to look after what you've got is not there. Instead there has been, IMHO, an element of "let's rip out whatever we can and take it with us to the next barracks".

However, whatever the reason behind the state of the accom provided, there is no excuse for Tony's Cronies not to fulfill their obligation to the men and women, serving and supporting.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[SamCaine]

From being a thread about the state of accommodation this now appears to have degenerated into an inter-service slanging match to point the finger at some alleged and/or perceived poor housekeeping. :mad:

Shall we try and put up a united front against the politicians who created the conditions for the Armed Forces of the UK to get into such a state? Or shall we, as usual, try and score points against another service? :ugh:

Yes, there are servicemen/women who don't attempt to live the way they should. But when you're given a doss house in lieu of a quarter/SLA I'd not be too keen on wasting time/money on the pit either. :sad:

The point of the matter is that the govt. wouldn't allow prisoners to live in half of the places we're asked to, and then they have the nerve to make people pay for the privilege. What sort of society treats those who have serve their country worse that those who have wronged the whole of society?