Lost Wingman on IMC Lift-Off

[DelaneyT]

...anybody ever initiated the 'Lost Wingman' instrument procedure ... right at lift-off in IMC (formation takeoff) ??

Any other tales of tense lost-wingman instrument-procedure events in the real-world of military formation flying ?

:eek:

[L J R]

A famous Vic T/O at Marham springs to mind......

[Wrathmonk]

Surely it could only have been considered a Vic T/O if all 3 got airborne!:E Perhaps a Vic Roll into a singleton parked in the over-run would have been better! :D

[SASless]

No lost wingmen...but can tell a story about dropping out of cloud on a GCA....to find myself smack dab in the middle of 12 UH-1's that happened to be in a huge "Vee". The sudden appearance of a Chinook from out of the murk into the middle of their formation raised a few eyebrows for all concerned. I guess the radar could not pick up the 12 small helicopters or else a controller had a very questionable sense of humour!

[threeputt]

...anybody ever initiated the 'Lost Wingman' instrument procedure ... right at lift-off in IMC (formation takeoff) ??

Any other tales of tense lost-wingman instrument-procedure events in the real-world of military formation flying ?

:eek:

"Lost wingman" not too much of a problem if you are the leader. A good wingman "sticks, searches and reports". If he can't complete any of these functions then he/she "f***s o** out of the way sharpish. Notwithstanding that, providing that you have briefed the "lost leader" procedures then you should be fine and dandy (something about x degrees off for y seconds and z feet away from your leaders height. No doubt someone far more current can explain those more efficiently. I've had a senior moment and can't remember because it is more than 15 years since I last did it in a GR1.

In a well planned, night, IMC sortie a lead Tornado GR1 crew could, and often did, take off and fly the mission without ever seeing any of the remainder of their 8 ship until they were taxying back to dispersal. Worked really well out in the Goose. Happy times, 7 hours planning a 1:45 sortie!!

They've even got a golf course out there for me to 3 putt on.

[rudekid]

Leading a formation recovery in proper IMC for a PAR when the 3 ship ahead executed an IMC lost leader. As they were in the descent, the man 'out' levelled off and by the time he'd picked up a squawk and his leader had stopped bleating on the radio, he was co height with my 3-ship.

Not only co-height but merging blips on the radar! Normally, this wouldn't have been a fear factor but I happened to see him pass across my nose (iN IMC) at my level about 50 metres in front. :eek: My reaction was to pull like a bXXXtard as I thought I would hit him. My two wingmen were then out, lost leader. You should have heard the RT extravaganza!

In retrospect, I should have done nothing and been a stable lead for the babies on the wing. However, that's all very well until you see someone across your nose in IMC.

It was interesting to hear the RT from the ATC perspective afterwards, the controllers choice of words as the blips merged showed how close we all were.

Still, learn something everytime you get up there...:}

[West Coast]

"to find myself smack dab in the middle of 12 UH-1's"

I'd employ the Korean driving theory, bigger vehicle has the right of way.

[GlosMikeP]

Not lost on T/O but did once join up with another on the approach to Lossie in 79. ATC had lost/confused us both in their flap at being suddenly red with loads of aircraft short of fuel and no good div.:eek:

[threepointonefour]

...anybody ever initiated the 'Lost Wingman' instrument procedure ... right at lift-off in IMC (formation takeoff) ??


Easy-peasy. Drop back, co-ord heights with leader and 'paint' on a-a radar. Alternatively, brief a 'snake climb' as a wotif, job done.

Sadly, these days you also need to be legal with ATC which means lots more comm and a loss of formation control.

[L J R]

......Multiply your formation position number by 10, select that attitude in pitch, remain wings level and select full AB. Doesn't work very well if you are number 9.

[threepointonefour]

...... Doesn't work very well if you are number 9.

But 9 beats 18 any day of the week!

[ShyTorque]

Our new sqn boss was dead keen on battle formation and wouldn't take advice that it wasn't really practical for support helicopters. We were embarked on a 6 month trial of battle formation training at every opportunity, to our chagrin.
Early one morning, I was No. 4 to himself and two squadron beefers, out doing battle formation.....
We had to knock it off due to fog suddenly forming everywhere. On our way back to base, the fog thickened very rapidly indeed and we were obliged to climb above it. We were called into close diamond formation. As we got closer to base, the wx deteriorated further (not forecast)and the boss requested radar vectors. Our fuel state wasn't at all good (never was in the Puma) but suddenly, the world was full of "fuel priority" calls from returning Harrier pilots also aborting and we were sent off on a wider pattern, to their benefit.
Shortly afterwards, the fog suddenly turned into thick cloud and we were in solid IMC. The numbers 2 and 3 immediately called that they had lost the leader and were "out", breaking off left and right. This threw ATC into chaos and they began to get overloaded. Back in close line astern, my only visual reference was the Boss's anti-coll on the tail pylon and so I hung onto it for grim death! I was too scared to break formation a) because I had not a lot of fuel and b) I was worried that there were other aircraft everywhere, including our other two Pumas, not yet identified on radar! At least ATC knew where WE were...
I was bit dismayed when I heard the boss request a PAR but I stuck with him in cloud all the way down. I made one call: "4's still in, gear down"! We broke cloud at less than 150 feet. My biggest worry was that if the leader suddenly raised his nose to slow down, I would lose that anti-coll light, my one visual reference, below me and I would be about one rotor span away from him unsighted, in cloud with no fuel. :uhoh:

We landed safely. The boss made great score that the junior pilot had stayed "IN" for a formation PAR when the two beefers bugged out, gave kudos to me. However, I don't recall doing much more battle formation after that, we reverted to good old Tac. :hmm:
BTW, I don't think there ever was a helicopter SOP for IMC formation. :O

[MightyGem]

Back in WW2, 3 USAAF B17s were descending in formation through cloud, back to their base in East Anglia. One of the crews was on their 25th mission and would be going home.

One of the other pilots became disorientated, and rolled his aircraft into the 25th mission aircraft killing all on board both aircraft. :(