The Kings crown

[vecvechookattack]

Had a (un)interesting chat at work today. At the moment, all of our Cap badges, Squadron crests (Squadron arm badges) etc etc all bear a representation of the Queens crown....even down to the buttons on our best Uniforms. When good Queen Bess departs to be relieved by Good King George( Charles)....does that mean that we will all have to change our cap badges, Squadron Crests etc etc to bear the image of the Kings crown ? And if we will do, who is going to pay for it....

....any prunners around when we last changed from the Kings Crown to the Queens crown ? What happened then ?

[allan907]

I suspect that not many are still around from them days. But my old man says that the hardest bit wasn't the buttons and badges - it was the nause of changing the halberds and pikes fer them new fangled percussion weapons. :}

[Flight Detent]

The answer to your question is YES!

We will all have to change to the kings crown, on all badges, crests, buttons and anything else that currently shows the queens crown!

Cheers, FD :uhoh:

[wiccan]

I "volunteered" :{ in 1962 ergo Queens Crown. As two uncles had "fallen" in Conflict, I was "made aware" that I "Could" wear the "KINGS Crown". This was THREE days before my discharge.....:confused: The "Rules" NOW, I am saying NOWT! :uhoh:
bb

[Talking Radalt]

Did those "rules" say anything "about" inverted "commas", smillies :D :mad: :oh: and CAPITALISATION?

[Jackonicko]

From the coronation of Edward VII (1902?) until 1953, military badges, flags, etc. bore a stylised and largely fictitious representation of the Tudor Crown (a crown which does not actually exist, since All Tudor regalia was destroyed after the English Civil War!).

Edward VII, who invented state pomp and pageantry as we know it today, regulated the shape of the Crown in iconography. The new standardised shape was originally called the Tudor crown because it was supposedly modelled on one worn by Henry VII, and it came to be known as the Imperial Crown because its image was standardised throughout the Empire. It has been said that the Tudor Crown's domed shape was chosen to make it more similar to the other European imperial crowns.

In 1952, Sir George Bellew, Garter King of Arms, persuaded the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, and the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, that it would be more appropriate if the crown surmounting the Royal Cypher was a realistic representation of the actual Crown of England, rather than being a representation of a crown that did not actually exist. There may also have been some desire to remove the Imperial Crown from iconography to reflect the end of Empire and the start of Commonwealth.

It was subsequently announced that: "The Queen wishes the St Edward's Crown to take the place of the Tudor Crown in all future designs embodying a representation of the crown."

It was decided, however, that existing designs should not be changed unless or until it was necessary to do so, but that when a design embodying the crown had to be changed, the St Edward's Crown should be substituted for the Tudor Crown. It was laid down that no unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense they should be deferred. It was stressed that Her Majesty had no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being used concurrently.

Thus current buttons, badges, etc. (though not all squadron badges) have the St Edward's Crown.

But this is simply the actual Crown - and not some 'female' or 'Queen's Crown', and this will be the crown that the next monarch will wear at their coronation, and which will therefore almost certainly be retained.

The idea that there is a "King's Crown" and a different "Queen's Crown" may be 'urban legend' and may be widely reported but it is simply wrong! The design just happened to change with the last change of monarch, which happened to be a change from King to Queen.

[J.A.F.O.]

Well, I'll be.

I never knew that Jacko.

[SASless]

Where is Beags when you need him....he has been around since Wellington's days and thus should be able to sort this out for us easily. Word has it....he still wears the same powdered wig.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Very interesting Jacko, makes for good reading.

However, most mil people have always referred to the two crowns as either King or Queen (types). I know I did and I have both as they were issued following promotions - now seemingly relics!

[GPMG]

So if Blair had had his way and become president, would we have had Cherie's ugly mug adorning our buttons and badges? Or perhaps Prescotts loving smile?

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Well in two jags Prescot can spend £600ish on changing his office door sign no doubt the MOD will spend millions changing all our buttons, etc, which will no doubt be paid for but a cut in capability somewhere!

[Zoom]

I reckon that that £600 would probably have bought a set of body armour for one of our soldiers...........................

Sorry, I digress.

[Beeayeate]

When I joined (1958) my father gave me his hat badge. When I first wore the thing it was questioned by the SWO at St Athan because I was ". . . to young to have had it issued." He relented when told it was my old man's badge and told me "Keep it clean and bright then lad."

Wore it long and hard for the rest of my time in the mob, kept it when I left. The same King's Crown hat badge is now worn by my son-in-law at BZ. He's had it remarked upon too, same sentiment allows its continued use. Now my father joined the mob in 1939 so the bagde has been in 'service' for yonks (or 67 years) - not bad for a bit of brass. Mind you, the pin lugs have been re-soldered a few times, the splt pin retainer replaced many times and it's quite smooth now, but it still polishes up a treat.

As 'Pop' says above, the difference was always known as King's and Queens badges in my time and, funnily enough, still is according to my s-i-l. Further, it would seem they're somewhat sought after.

Anyway, it always looked a lot better than those bright plastic things we were issued with in the early 70s. They looked nothing more than Xmas tree decorations to me.

.

[Rossian]

In rather the same way as Beeayeate I inherited a mess kit jacket from my FiL. As he'd been commissioned prior to WW2 the buttons had been well polished by a succession of batmen over the years. Most of the buttons were well worn but I'm sure the crowns were different from those on my first No5 (vintage 1963). Once or twice various PMCs had a little dig about "incorrect" dress but it's amazing what you can ignore if you put your mind to it.
The Ancient Mariner

[Roadster280]

Well in two jags Prescot can spend £600ish on changing his office door sign no doubt the MOD will spend millions changing all our buttons, etc, which will no doubt be paid for but a cut in capability somewhere!

Prescott? Office? What earthly use would that imbecile have for an office? Oh, I forgot, nailing his secretary. Back to thread...

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

But once Charlie takes over I wonder who will be the first brave Mr Vice to respond to the loyal toast with Ladies and Gentlemen the King, followed by a shake of the hips and a quiet uh huh huh:D ...............I for one will pi@@ my self:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[rab-k]

The Army in Scotland has a single Crown design, whoever the Monarch may be:

http://www.rampantscotland.com/graphics/royal_regiment_scotland_badge1a.jpg representing the Scottish Crown: http://www.rampantscotland.com/symbols/graphics2/honours472b.jpg

These also being used:

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/UNKG1032.GIF http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/UNKG1033.GIF

In place of:

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/UNKG1030.GIF http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/UNKG1031.GIF

[buoy15]

Lucky we only have to change badges and buttons
There was a time (circa 17th century and later) when the complete wardrobe of uniform (including swords) would change from silver to gold and back again, whenever the Monarch changed - at the expense to the individual, particularly the O's who, in those days, purchased their Commissions
Still got a genuine Crombie Long greatcoat with (gold) annodised Queen's Crown buttons for sale

[Cornish Jack]

I joined in Dec '53 and there was a considerable mix of crowns to be seen then. All we 'sprogs' were issued with the Queen's version but all the old hands had King's crowns. IIRC they were only changed with new issue clothing.

[Pontius Navigator]

About 1964 the buttons were all changed by order.

The original buttons, both anodised and plain brass, had the Queen's crown but for some reason the air box decided we would adopt a new button.

This button has exactly the same crown as its predecessor and was in all respects identical from a distance of 6 feet or more.

The new button was known as the Domed button as it had a higher profile than the previous flatter version.

There was no question of continuing to use the older button until one's uniform was changed. Officers all had to buy new buttons, at their own expense although the station tailor did all the airmen's. The 3 buttons on the No 1 were not too bad. It was the dozen of so on the greatcoat that cost as these were not sewn on and a tailor had to open up the lining.

Given Jacko's quote about Liz's attitude, I bet she never knew.

[Mal Drop]

Get real chaps. You'll all be sporting the new corporate logo...

[Blacksheep]

When I joined in '63, one of my fellow Brats had a King's Crown cap badge, given him by his grandfather. It was slightly more oval in shape than the Queen's Crown version that we had as standard issue and bore a King's Crown, but "Cookie" wore it every day and on every parade. Those who were Brats will know how often that badge was peered at (and even on occasions removed to see if there was any Brasso residue on the back...) on parades, but he was never picked up for it.

Even though the letters in the middle were RFC instead of RAF... :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah, real cap badges.

Can you reveal the secret? Was it really years and years of brasso that wore them flat or aa bit of judicious machining to make them smooth?

Once the staybright plastic badge came in well - standards.

Like the pair of brass buckles on the back of the webbing belt. Bl**dy useless and a sod to clean. The belts without buckles were highly prized.

[om15]

Rubbing the badge vigorously on a bit of brasso impregnated cardboard was the accepted way of getting a new badge started,
regards,
om15

[philrigger]

Rubbing the badge vigorously on a bit of brasso impregnated cardboard was the accepted way of getting a new badge started,
regards,
om15
;)
..........or on the underside of the bedside mat. I still have my Dad's Kings Crown cap badge - He joined in 1935 - which after being given it on his retirement in 1970, I wore every working day for the next 18 years. It had to have a few running repairs during its life.
When I joined in Jan '64 our working blue was the old national service best blue, ie of best blue shape/cut but made with working blue 'Hairy Mary' material. This had brass buttons with Kings crowns.
Good story of the Kings/Queens crown. I prefer the factoid version though.


Merry Christmas and all the best for 2007 to all Ppruners.


'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar'.

[Blacksheep]

The accepted method at Halton Pontius, was to put some of the RAF issue scouring powder on the back of the bedside mat and add Brasso to make a thick paste. Then the badge was rubbed vigourously face down in the paste until it was reduced to the fashionable flat surface. Hand polish with a yellow cloth to remove the scratchiness and Bob's yer uncle.

To digress a little - another old Brat tip. Take one pair of ammunition boots, smear in a thick layer of boot polish. Set fire to the boots and wait until the dimples disappear. Bull them up with Cherry Blossom, yellow cloth and loads of spit in the customary manner, to build up a nice layer of shiny black wax. So far, so good - its SOP - but to get the perfect finish, rub your hands together vigorously for a minute then use the heel of the palm to buff the bulled-up toe caps, insoles and heels to a perfect finish. The warm hand melts the outer layer of the 'bull' just enough to give that ultimate gloss.

Why?

I dunno. :confused:

Bull**** baffles brain... :}

[buoy15]

Blacksheep
Brilliant - was in O lines at St Athan in 62 and we shaved the iinsde of the hairy battle dress trousers to make a crease
Brasso and newspaper (lead print) was the best window cleaner ever!
Bull nights, Bed Packs and Kit inspections still give me a hard on
Polishing the centre deck with a 'bumper' till it looked like glass makes me wonder why I ever left
Happy days
Merry Christmas
B15

[BEagle]

I recall that the 'low dome' brass buttons were replaced by the 'high dome' staybright versions in around 1969?

Before then it was button sticks and picking the Brasso gunk out of the crowns with a matchstick at RAFC Cranwell.

'Kings' crowns' were still seen in the 70s, but not many since. Tradition certainly allowed 'hereditary' wings to be worn on flying suits.

There was still the odd 'flying O' (to give it it's polite name) on some navigators' uniforms when I joined. And, SASless, that was long after we started putting the bullets in the blunt end of guns, rather than using ye goode olde ramrods!

[Blacksheep]

It was tradition for the Wing Duty Officer to give Brats on Jankers an extra special going over on their last night - the apparent idea being to try and charge them with being 'filthy on parade' and get them back on Jankers.

Everyone in a room would bung in to help the victim (if he was a popular bloke) and we'd remove the buttons to bull up the backs as well as the fronts, then stitch them back on. You could get the crap out of the back of a cap badge or the crowns on the buttons with meths and a stiff brush, without damaging the shine. We'd bull the soles of the boots too and polish the steel studs. Once he was dressed to kill in full webbing - including ammo pouches and back pack - we'd lay him out on a toilet door and carry him over to Wing HQ around 9.30 pm, ready for the 10 pm final inspection.

In retrospect it's easy to see that in addition to discipline & punishment, the true objective was to mould team spirit and comradeship, but at the time it wasn't bloody funny.

B*st*rds! :}

Beags - Our Sqn Commander in Maitland (3A Wing) had served in Mesopotamia, dropping bombs on the 'insurgents' by hand. His King's Crown wings were King George the Fifths. 'Piggy' Sills his name was. Did you know him by any chance?

I still have my button stick and brass brush as souvenirs...

[om15]

Blacksheep,

Happy 1 wing memories, I remember the boots on fire technique, an alternate method favoured by a few was the hot spoon and candle way of removing the dimples on drill boots, I never did master any of it! I think the more keener brats used to put soap inside the creases of the working blue trousers to make a more impressive crease when ironed.
Bedpacks and bumpering centre decks, it all did keep us out of mischief I suppose. happy days. oh and coller studs,

Best regards,
om15.

[BEagle]

Fiery boots and soaped creases in your hairy blues - the joys of that I recall indeed from my time in the South Brick Lines at RAFC in 1968....:hmm: But collar studs were nothing new as we'd had those at school.

The only Sills I knew was Colin. I don't think even he was old enough to have dropped bombs on things in Mesoptamia. But I might be wrong....:O

[allan907]

At Hereford back in '63 (and presumably other training bases) the NAAFI had plastic shirt collars for sale. They beat scrubbing and washing the issue linen ones but were an absolute bugger come summer and one started to sweat a bit!

Bulling the toe caps and cleaning the instep was fine until some w*nker decided to go one better and extend the bull to other parts of the boot. I seem to remember spending the best part of a year getting my graduation parade boots bulled from top to bottom because of that.

On the day one gingerly exited the barrack block and form up in threes. Then came the order "Number 1 Flight. Aaaaaaaaa.....ten.......SHUN!" And with that, a year's worth of bull cracked into myriad pieces and left a neat pile of hard Cherry Blossom where 100 Boy Entrants had previously stood.

[petitfromage]

I was present with my Great Uncles 'wings' when I graduated. Like 80% of the air war fatalities he was killed whilst instructing in '42. (a solo student, on a practice glide approach, descended onto his aircraft killing both him and his student.)

I wore his wings, with 'kings crown', proudly for 13yrs. The same brevet is now mounted & framed in a quiet corner of my house.

Jacko, thank-you for the history lesson, much appreciated. Perhaps you could help further.

The 'kings crown' has been filled in with red thread. Its obviously amateur handly work - perhaps him, perahps his batman?
I've always believed that this was the equivalent of todays '1000 hour' patch.

Fact, myth, legend?

Regards
PF