Alcohol and Pilots..............

[BRL]

Some of you may find this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256861) interesting over in the R&N forum.

Here is the Rotorheads view (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256203) on the situation.

[1d2d3d4d]

A very interesting thread indeed.

How does one know when when one's system is clear of alcohol? Just how long could too much stay in the system or is 1 unit/hour + 1 hour absolute?

Chris

[Julian]

I have been employed in an industry for the last 16yrs which for the large part has had random drug and alcohol testing. In fact I believe its the same industry as BRL, albeit a different area.

I have been tested several times under the process, which allows for testing either 1) randomly, 2) due to new assignment/promotion and 3) 'due cause'. I have also been tested under all 3, the first two, several times as a matter of course and the final when someone else was involed in an incident that led to all staff being tested. I have never tested positive I may add!

Limits we use are, I believe, same as drink drive limits the police use. Drugs wise, the limit is none at all in your systems without good cause (i.e. medication).

I have never found the process stressful, has not really affected my social life and is now accepted throughout our industry as a matter of course. Everyone I know still has a drink but thinks about before going on a bender - if you are then a days leave next day may be in order. The most noticable change has been the pub lunches that used to go on, especially on a Friday, has now ceased.

Does it work? Yes I know of several cases where staff have been suspended for both alcohol and drugs in their system. Do I support its use in our industry? Yes, whilst a lot of grumbling at first was heard I would say overall it has had a positive effect.

Under the DnA policy a staff member with a problem (drugs or alcohol) can declare it to management and recieve assistance and will not be suspended. If they have a problem and dont declare it and get caught then its suspension and usally dismissal.

DnA testing (thats Drugs and Alcohol not any complex sprial strings of proteins :} ) is undertaken on anyone in our industry that is in a 'Safety Critical' position. This does not only include staff such as BRL but filters right through to staff such as design, installation, test and commissioning staff, etc - anyone who can have an effect on the safety of a system not only during it final intended purpose but also in the implementation, operation and maintenance of that system.

I guess in this vain, I would ask if , as a pilot, you saw your role as P1/P2 of an aircraft as 'Safety Critical'?

Just my view as someone who already operates under a DnA procedure already.

J.

[Whopity]

Does anyone know the limit for pilots? or where to find it?

It might surprise you

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003/20030020.htm

[DX Wombat]

How does one know when when one's system is clear of alcohol? Just how long could too much stay in the system or is 1 unit/hour + 1 hour absolute?

ChrisYou can only know definitely that you are clear if you have a blood test, or, if there has been a sufficiently long period of time since you last had an alcoholic intake (don't forget it can appear in trifles, cakes and mince pies at this time of year) The 1 unit per hour is a very good guide but is only an approximation, it may take longer, especially if you are dehydrated and / or have not eaten for some time.

[Legalapproach]

Whopity

As I understand it the limit for pilots effectively means no self administered alcohol. The very small amount allowed covers those individuals whose body produces a small natural amount of alcohol. The maximum limits equate to around a quarter of the normal drink drive limit which in turn is roughly 5 units of alcohol.

The amelioration rate of alcohol is roughly 1 unit per hour (about 1/2 pint of normal stength beer) for a normal sized healthy male but can vary enormously between individuals and as DX Wombat says can vary depending upon physical condition, whether you have eaten or not and what you have eaten.

The problem is that these figures are all very approximate and it is very risky to try and self-assess.

[Whopity]

Sure sounds like it. To put things in perspective

The limit given for pilots is:

9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath;
20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood;
27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine. multiplied by 3.5 times = 31.5; 70 and 94.5 so he was still legal to drive a car where the road traffic act limit is:


35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath;
80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood;
107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine.

[scooter boy]

Getting a alcohol blood or breath check as a pilot is IMHO very unusual at present and in most reported instances the individuals concerned were either "shopped" by colleagues or caught after flying erratically. The third group of positive test samples comes from postmortem toxicology specimens.

The bottom line here is that alcohol, (even alcohol consumed the night before the morning after) severely affects performance, judgement and mood.

Many drugs are worse.

Even if blood or breath limits are not exceeded the negative effects of alcohol and drugs can drag on for far longer than we would expect.

I only drink if I am certain that I will not need to fly and/or work the next day.

Getting up the next morning is so much easier if you haven't had a drink the night before,

SB

[Flying Lawyer]

Whopity

Those press reports which mention the blood/alcohol reading quote the prosecutor as saying tests showed the pilot had "134 micrograms of alcohol in 100 milliliters of blood."

That statement doesn't make sense. As you correctly say, the legal limit is:

9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath
20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of bloodEither the prosecutor erroneously said micrograms when he meant milligrammes, or the news agency reporter misheard him.
As it was a blood test, the reading must have been 134 milligrammes, not microgrammes.


scooter boy in most reported instances the individuals concerned were either "shopped" by colleagues or caught after flying erratically I've followed the reports closely since the law enabling police to breath-test pilots was introduced, and represented the first pilot at Heathrow to be prosecuted and sent to prison. I have seen nothing to suggest your assertion is correct.

I can't think of a case in the UK where the pilot was "shopped by colleagues", nor where a pilot was "caught after flying erratically."
There have been extremely few cases in the UK but, to the extent that it's possible to identify any pattern, pilots have been "shopped" by security guards when going through security to airside.

The nearest I can recall to your second category is that ridiculous nonsense at Manchester where two police constables decided it was appropriate to breath-test both pilots after a passenger told police the pilots must be drunk because the aircraft had to do a go-around. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
See: Pilots breathalysed after go-around (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160845)

The bottom line here is that alcohol, (even alcohol consumed the night before the morning after) severely affects performance, judgement and mood. Surely it depends, amongst other things, upon the quantity of alocohol consumed and the elapse of time between when it was consumed and when the pilot performs his aviation function?


FL

[WestWind1950]

Whopity
I can't think of a case in the UK where the pilot was "shopped by colleagues", nor where a pilot was "caught after flying erratically."
FL
We had a case here in Germany this past summer. Short before the unkontrolled airfield closed, a flight instructor and his student left on a cross-country night flight, taking off 5 min. before sunset. At first the student did the radio and all sounded find to the guys in the tower. Soon after take-off and after changing to FIS, the instructor took over the mike, and was hardly intelligible to the controllers. They also flew VERY erratically. For weather reasons they could no longer fly to their plan destination and had to be talked down into FRA. Both had WAY over the limit!! Both had their certifications revoked. The student had planned to become a professional pilot one day..... he can forget that now! :suspect:

[Captain Smithy]

Whaaaat, whatsssshhh wrong with having a few sssssshhherries to ssshhhteady the ssshhhenssshhes before a lessshhhon? Whatsssshh wrong with that?

[scooter boy]

scooter boy I've followed the reports closely since the law enabling police to breath-test pilots was introduced, and represented the first pilot at Heathrow to be prosecuted and sent to prison. I have seen nothing to suggest your assertion is correct.

I can't think of a case in the UK where the pilot was "shopped by colleagues", nor where a pilot was "caught after flying erratically."

Surely it depends, amongst other things, upon the quantity of alocohol consumed and the elapse of time between when it was consumed and when the pilot performs his aviation function?


FL[/quote]

FL,

Thanks for your comments.
Some examples that spring to mind to qualify my assertions:
I recall a BA captain who was prevented from taking to the air in Norway as I recall after cabin crew raised concerns. Big fuss about 1 year ago - in the papers and on BBC news.

Also I have heard of a couple of cases of the police being called by ATC after very erratic flying - one I think in the US and another in the UK, I think it was Bournemouth but I may be wrong.

My point was that although the blood levels of alcohol may revert to normal the hangover effect can last much longer.

SB

[PompeyPaul]

Sure sounds like it. To put things in perspective

The limit given for pilots is:
9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath;
20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood;
27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine.multiplied by 3.5 times = 31.5; 70 and 94.5 so he was still legal to drive a car where the road traffic act limit is:

35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath;
80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood;
107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine.

I can't think of anything more terrifying than being in control of a plane with alcohol and or drugs in my system.

[gingernut]

Metabolisation of alcohol depends on a number of factors, including weight, sex, age, fitness, food intake etc etc.

A very rough guide has been quoted, 1 unit is burnt off every hour or so.

Perhaps pertinent to flying is the detrimental effect alcohol has on the balance mechanisms within the ears, some figures I've seen, suggest that this can hang around for aproximately 48 hours, long after any detectable amounts are found in the ear. :)

Have a very Merry Christmas, and safe flying.

[bookworm]

I can't think of anything more terrifying than being in control of a plane with alcohol and or drugs in my system.

How about not being in control of it? ;)