EX R.A.F fast jet Navigators [Archive]

Tombstone

19th Dec 2006, 20:10

Good advice from threepointfour, I think it would be fair to say that most of the WSOs (Navs) on the sqn I serve on tried to get in as pilots & were either pushed straight into Cranditz as WSOs or failed flying training as pilots & were reselected at a later date.:{

On the other side of the coin I think there are WSOs out there, who are sitting in the back due to them failing to sell themselves enough at OASC.

FrodoMonkey is Pprune's resident F3 WSO & may be able to offer you some sound advice however, I don't think threepointfour, or any of the other F3 pilots let him out of his box much these days as I've not seen him on here for a while.

jonesthepilot

19th Dec 2006, 20:57

Don't want to sound pompous, but... try as a frontseater first. If no luck then enjoy some time in the back seat before crossing over. Back to front that is!!

threepointonefour

19th Dec 2006, 21:23

however, I don't think threepointfour, or any of the other F3 pilots

It's not the first time I've been mistaken for a pilot !!! But hey, what's a wing between aircrew? (Everything - ask the pilots.)

Having failed at pilot trg, and instructed at nearly all WSO stages, I can honestly say it's a great job. But more and more, with very limited scope (GR4 or Nimrod are the only real certs for a decent length of time) and a limited time frame.

That said, it's flying. And in the case of the GR4, flying a moderately fast jet. Sometimes at low-level. Cool or what? Just don't think long term re WSO and plan a route 'out' and you could be ok. Oh yes, and a heck of a lot of VVV hard work between now and Combat Ready on the GR.

[email protected]

20th Dec 2006, 06:52

There must be an anagram for Weapon Systems Officer which is at least as amusing as that for Navigator - Vagina rot :)

Mad_Mark

20th Dec 2006, 07:29

Surely if you want to be a Nav/WSO then you should know how to find this information out through the official channels (AFCO or the RAF careers website!) - then again, wants to be a nav... maybe not :E

MadMark!!! :mad:

Mr C Hinecap

20th Dec 2006, 07:31

I thought this was going to be a recruitment posting from McDonalds :E

Oh well - another thread let-down. :(

Tombstone

20th Dec 2006, 07:47

It's not the first time I've been mistaken for a pilot !!! But hey, what's a wing between aircrew? (Everything - ask the pilots.)

Having failed at pilot trg, and instructed at nearly all WSO stages, I can honestly say it's a great job. But more and more, with very limited scope (GR4 or Nimrod are the only real certs for a decent length of time) and a limited time frame.

My apologies threepointfour, I was certain you were an F3 mate!

I believe that the E3 is starting to fill up with F3 backseaters as FCs so, there is indeed an opportunity to re-role and keep your flying pay.

Dr Schlong

20th Dec 2006, 09:21

There must be an anagram for Weapon Systems Officer which is at least as amusing as that for Navigator - Vagina rot :)

How about "Effeminate prossy cows"? :p

flyboy007

20th Dec 2006, 10:27

I didn't think there were any Ex Navs!! Who is managing the Cartel Finances?

Bridge23

20th Dec 2006, 13:41

Just how difficult IS flying training?

Always_broken_in_wilts

20th Dec 2006, 13:45

For pilots it's piece of pi@@ but for our poor old nav brethren, who incidentally almost all smell of pi@@ it was way tooooo difficult...................i would suggest:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

frodo_monkey

20th Dec 2006, 14:09

Tombstone - still here old boy, just watching rather than contributing these days...

Nav2006 - if you have any questions PM me and I'll answer as best I can, but be prepared to wait a bit as its Xmas and I want to forgot all about work for a few days!

ABIW - next thing you'll be saying that all the guys who did best in flying training go to Albert... :E

Always_broken_in_wilts

20th Dec 2006, 14:13

"ABIW - next thing you'll be saying that all the guys who did best in flying training go to Albert... "

No but they do get to sit in the front seat/seats:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

rundll

20th Dec 2006, 16:20

Ooh I found somewhere other than the AFCO to ask questions :)

Hey guys/gals, I have a few questions as im hoping to apply for WSO after I finish my degree. But by the looks of it id be better applying for pilot, and then being dumped in the back seat :D

First off, is there a maximum weight to be allowed in the fast jets? F3, GR4 etc. I cant imagine it making much difference in a nimrod or a sentry, but maybe in a fast jet? Im 6ft 1 and spent the last 3 years bulking up to 14 stone from 11 :P, I dont think losing it would be too easy.

Secondly, does anyone know if its possible for me to apply now to commence IOT when I finish my degree in a year and a half or so? From what ive read alot of people dont make it through officer selection initially, so If i can try now, then even if i didnt make it I could try again before my degrees finished, and im forced into civilian work :)

And Thirdly, on the careers website it gives the WSO wage as 31 grand odd, is that the standard 26k flying officer pay + flight pay?
Edit: Also, out of interest, what is the official justification for flying pay?

Thanks alot for any help, looking forward to your answers.

Pontius Navigator

20th Dec 2006, 17:02

Just how difficult IS flying training?

Pass IOT first, then worry about FT.

sarsteph

20th Dec 2006, 19:23

rundll - you can apply to go through the RAF selection procedures while you're still at uni. If you're lucky and get through, you might even get some financial help through the scholarship scheme (though I'm not sure if you'd still get that when you've only got a year and a half to go - best to ask the careers people.)

As to height/weight, the Station Commander at a GR4 stn I used to serve at was a 6'5" and although not overweight, he must have been at least as heavy as 14st considering his height - he was a pilot. On fast jets, limb length/proportions are more important than overall height.

frodo_monkey

21st Dec 2006, 07:34

ABIW - Awwww, I was hoping for a festive Xmas bite, or a niblette of some description...:{ Banter will do though :ok: you pie-eater ;)

Pontius Navigator

21st Dec 2006, 07:49

But by the looks of it id be better applying for pilot, and then being dumped in the back seat :D

Don't bank on it. Today's need for navs will not necessarily remain into next year (2008) or beyond. This means nav competition will stiffen up again.

While all wanabee pilots must have sufficient N scores there will be no guarantees of a cosy N slot if you get washed out at a pilot. The system would rather have wanabee navs than navs from ex-wanabee pilots.

The ex-pilot nav success rate is not as agood as the straight through nav rate. Trust me, I'm a navigator and none on this EX bit. I may not be current but I will always be a navigator.

Always_broken_in_wilts

21st Dec 2006, 07:55

"Trust me, I'm a navigator and none on this EX bit. I may not be current but I will always be a navigator."

Have you got BUPA cover, some of these surgeons today can work bloody miracles............:E

Mrs L watched a tv prog last night where a bunch of doctors turned some 42 year old GE's bird into something slightly more pleasing on the eye so there must a surgeon out there who can cut the bad out of you Ponty!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Pontius Navigator

21st Dec 2006, 08:18

ABIW, just wait until you are EX too.

Once you may have been only 1/30th of my age. Now you are less than half my age and catching up rapidly.

You will become EX-RAF and possibly even EX-aircrew (Are pilots considered to be aircrew? Probably why the J has only 2 heads in the cockpit as there is not enough room for the brains). I bet you will never consider yourself as an EX-pilot.

Always_broken_in_wilts

21st Dec 2006, 08:24

Ponty,

Dementia must be setting in dude:p , check my profile and you will see that I am just the tea boy, was never clever enough for the really important job:ok:

Will be an Ex in 5 years 11 months and am going to retire to a life on the ocean, well med anyway, waves courtesy of PA spine and pension 05.....some days I really love this job:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Pontius Navigator

21st Dec 2006, 08:34

Ok, f****** k******

We can make an exception. The sooner you are ex the happier we will all be.:}

threepointonefour

21st Dec 2006, 08:41

Pros & Cons of Nav

Pros

1. You get the chance to fly in Fast Jets, and do a cool job
2. Sqn camaraderie can be outstanding - you truly can be part of a 'family'
3. It is exhilerating and exciting
4. Being a nav is better than everything else on the ground (subjective, I know - but you get to fly!)
5. You often get to 'run the show' as Tactical Lead with the pilot playing formation lead, but see 'con 3' below.

Cons

1. Limited shelf life - no long term prospects unless you switch from flying to a staff role later
2. No outside equivalent of a Nav - cost to RAF pilot to gain ATPL = 8k exams, cost for Nav to gain ATPL, 35k to 6ok plus 7mths trg/living expenses)
3. Always play second fiddle to (many) 'superior' pilots - especially during 'war'/ops (pilots get DFCs, Navs get lesser awards if anything at all, despite same work done/joint decision making)
4. The training is long and hard (cue, Top Gun quote ...)

Pros & Cons of Pilot

Pros

1. You get the chance to fly in Fast Jets, and do a cool job
2. Sqn camaraderie can be outstanding - you truly can be part of a 'family'
3. You're in control (although if I was to fly with an inexperienced pilot, he would do as he was told or we'd have words!!)
4. You have a readily transferable skill
5. It doesn't cost much to transfer that skill to the civvy world and earn upwards of 60-70k quite quickly
6. You get all the awards
7. Best job in the world (if you like flying!)
8. You get the chance to fly Harriers (surely a con) and Typhoon
9. If you get chopped, there is a chance (dependent on internal policy and market forces) that you could be re-branched as a Nav.

Cons

1. The training is long and hard

Just my two-penneth. As a nav, I can't really see why anyone would not want to try to be a pilot first.

Time Flies

21st Dec 2006, 09:42

You're in control (although if I was to fly with an inexperienced pilot, he would do as he was told or we'd have words!!)

:hmm:

The saying "no stick, no vote" springs to mind.

Always_broken_in_wilts

21st Dec 2006, 09:53

Time,

A pilot listen to anyone let alone a Nav, who most pilots and other crewmembers consider to be "white noise" anyway, it just aint gonna happen:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

threepointonefour

21st Dec 2006, 10:23

:hmm:

The saying "no stick, no vote" springs to mind.

Amusing, as ever.

But believe me, I always had a vote (especially in a twin-sticker!!) - if you ever believe you don't as a nav, then get one (by ability and respect) or else find something else to do.

Always_broken_in_wilts

21st Dec 2006, 10:36

"But believe me, I always had a vote (especially in a twin-sticker!!) -"

I love it when guys mix ambition with ability:rolleyes:

He will be telling us next about the time he wrestled control from the pilot to save the infant school he was about to demolish........................yawn:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

rundll

21st Dec 2006, 14:04

Thanks for the replies guys, can anyone tell me about the wages, is the extra 4.5k(?) over normal flying officer pay a flying bonus?

Im also getting the feeling that camaraderie between Pilots and Navs isnt so great :). I expected that a pilot and nav would be paired and train/go on ops together. but it doesnt sound like it from what im reading? I guess ive watched too much topgun...

Pontius Navigator

21st Dec 2006, 17:08

threepointonefour

21st Dec 2006, 17:55

"But believe me, I always had a vote (especially in a twin-sticker!!) -"
I love it when guys mix ambition with ability:rolleyes:
He will be telling us next about the time he wrestled control from the pilot ...

Actually ....

Note: No spelling mistakes / errors in this post were 'pie or curry -induced'.

threepointonefour

21st Dec 2006, 18:06

I'm also getting the feeling that camaraderie between Pilots and Navs isnt so great :). I expected that a pilot and nav would be paired and train/go on ops together. but it doesnt sound like it from what im reading? I guess ive watched too much topgun...

Don't pay too much attention to the 'banter' - I've flown with ALL manner of pilot from Typhoon/Harrier/Jaguar thru F3/GR4 to C130/Nimrod/Helo. They were all equally capable of scr3wing up in spades and seen it time and time again. Many of the FJ pilots wouldn't admit this, but I have met loads who would - each 2-seat FJ sqn is, by definition, twice as big as the equivalent single seat sqn which means more people to share the jobs and more people to have fun.

Incidentally, the RAF does have a bunch of Navs, Air Engs and WSOps who fly.

rundll

21st Dec 2006, 19:17

Incidentally, the RAF does have a bunch of Navs, Air Engs and WSOps who fly.

Thanks alot for your reply...really appreciate any insight.

Could you elaborate slightly on the above sentence, as you lost me slightly :rolleyes:

And thanks alot sarsteph, I suddenly had a terrible thought I would have to be ten stone :)

sarsteph

22nd Dec 2006, 11:03

Thanks alot for your reply...really appreciate any insight.

Could you elaborate slightly on the above sentence, as you lost me slightly :rolleyes:

And thanks alot sarsteph, I suddenly had a terrible thought I would have to be ten stone :)

I think what he means is that there is more to aircrew than just the FJ mates. Nimrods, Hercs, Sentries etc have Navs, air engineers and WSOps and even fighter controllers who fly.

As to the weight thing... Better to be as fit as possible before you try to join up. There are fat aircrew around :) but they generally got fat after they came through Cranwell!!) You'll be put through physical tests (like the bleep test) as part of OASC. The minimum standards for the bleep test are allegedly going up from April this year so more will be expected of you.

Fitness not only shows you have the physical capacity to do your job (important when pulling lots of g in a FJ or running away from the bad guys when they shoot you down:} ) but also shows a positive attitude to self-discipline which is another necessity.

I wish you all the best if you decide to go for it!

TommyTornado

22nd Dec 2006, 17:44

Nathan,

I applied as pilot....got nav...spent the last 4 years getting to the frontline....and GR4 back seating will not disappoint you. If that floats your boat. Training is hard whichever career you end up doing, albeit pilot training takes longer, (FJ does anyway).

But like many have already said...go for pilot. Means you'll be 6 feet closer to the sharp end. Unless you're a truckie mate....in which case you'll be six feet further from the microwave. :ok:

Depends how much you like curry and pies really.

TT

Korova

22nd Dec 2006, 22:42

Hi Everyone

I have been reading this thread with interest and thought it was time I came out if the shadows and asked all the navigators out there, ex or otherwise, whether you would recommend a career as a Nav/WSO?

I ask this because I have been offered a SSC as a WSO, but I read threads on PPrune and speak to different people and get contrasting views as to whether I should accept the offer or not.

It would be a more exciting career than my dull city job (which is the reason I applied), but I have only been offered a SSC, it is a career with a limited shelf life and I would be a second class citizen (if that) compared to the 'two-winged master race', which would be difficult to swallow.

So if anyone out there has compelling arguments one way or the other, I would love to hear them.

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2006, 07:13

whether I should accept the offer . . . It would be a more exciting career than my dull city job (which is the reason I applied) . . . a limited shelf life . . . a second class citizen (if that) . . . difficult to swallow. . . compelling arguments

I think you have answered your own question. Compare your question with all the other similar started questions in pprune; not only that, you did not start the thread.

That said I have served with a nursery man, an architect, a builders, a car-spray shopman, a banker, a physiologist, an electronics expert, a theatre director and many other professionals. They were all first rate aircrew and I would have been lucky had I been in a POW camp with them - German rules of course.

As Ratty said, Only you can decide what is right

threepointonefour

23rd Dec 2006, 08:31

... whether you would recommend a career as a Nav/WSO?

I ask this because I have been offered a SSC as a WSO,

Take it, but do plan ahead and use the system as much as it will use you. Do, however, maintain your integrity and sense of humour (you'll need that!). On the plus side, as I've said before, you may get to fly fast jets - if you're good enough!

( ... cast ... ) ... ( ... worm hitting water now ...)

Given your request for advice, one would assume that you are not one of those £5m bonus city-boys ... You only live once (just don't get shot down while living).

Tombstone

23rd Dec 2006, 10:09

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2006, 11:14

Tombstone. Korova may be female :)

Vage Rot

23rd Dec 2006, 13:01

There must be an anagram for Weapon Systems Officer which is at least as amusing as that for Navigator - Vagina rot :)

Bu99er! I'm outed - I'll have to change my cryptic handle now!!:ugh: :D

Vage Rot

23rd Dec 2006, 13:11

It would be a more exciting career than my dull city job (which is the reason I applied), but I have only been offered a SSC, it is a career with a limited shelf life and I would be a second class citizen (if that) compared to the 'two-winged master race', which would be difficult to swallow.
I've had 20 years of telling pilots where to go ;) and loved every minute of it. Anyone can do the 'monkey see monkey do' pilotty bits but it takes brains to ................................ bu99er, forgot, I joined as a pilot and got chopped abut a year in.
More seriously, it's not so much what you do but how you do it, it's an enjoyable job and, as with everything, if you are good then you have the respect of your peers of all branches.
With a bit of experience and airmanship you should find it easy to cross over if you do decide to take their offer however, think first. We are short of WSO(Nav) and pilots but, whereas it's (correct use of apostrophe!!) easy to attract pilots into the RAF it's no so easy to recruit Navs. Coupled with the fact that the chop rate from pilot, and re-role to Nav, is a lot lower than it used to be means a shortfall on Nav recruitment. They may just be dangling the Nav option in front of you so hold out for Pilot if that's what you want.
Good Luck!

rundll

23rd Dec 2006, 16:20

For those people who sign up now as a wso, how easy/likely would it be to retrain and rerole, as come 2015 i guess the need for navs will be significantly reduced, seeing as the eurofighter is a damn single seater :ugh:

A 6 year career doesnt really appeal. As I cant join till i finish my degree. Plus it would be completely soul destroying to do that for 6 years, then be forced behind a desk on civi street, its a depressing enough prospect in the first place.

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2006, 17:42

I suspect that the GR4 will be in service sometime after 2015. The following website suggests 2025: http://www.aviationweek.com/avnow/news/channel_defense_story.jsp?id=news/aw071706p2.xml

The following website mentions the JCA: http://navy-matters.beedall.com/jca1-1.htm otherwise known on pprune as Dave. As we have yet to order the aircraft one might suspect that 2012/2014 is optimistic. Either way 2025 for the GR4 looks not unreasonable.

The United Kingdom is expected to buy up to 138 of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II at a cost of about ₤8 billion to meet its Joint Combat Aircraft requirement for a replacement for the Harrier and the already out of service Sea Harrier FA.2 in RAF and RN service. The F-35B STOVL variant was officially selected for JCA in September 2002, but this is being reconsidered and the F-25C CV variant remains a serious option and a final decision is awaited. Regardless of variant, the first two aircraft are expected to be delivered in 2012, and a limited initial operational capability to be achieved by the end of 2014.

Billy Whiz

23rd Dec 2006, 23:47

First - threepointonefour is one of the few people here talking any sense and any would-be WSO/nav should heed his wise words. I am an ex-Tornado GR 1/1A/4 nav who is now a Training Captain flying Airbuses for a UK airline. The transition has been long and hard and it is only now that I have 'caught up' with the 2-winged master race. Incidentally, before anyone accuses me of having a chip on my shoulder, I was a nav from the beginning and never went through pilot training.

When I joined the RAF, navs could see a future to 55. Anyone joining the RAF as a WSO now would, in my opinion, be making a serious error of judgement as there is no future for them. The older you get the less your options are and you will find yourself at your 16/38 option being kicked out with no useful skills and starting again. Like it or not, it is a pilot's world in the RAF and I never spotted it. I had some great years with some great people but I woke up, smelt the coffee and left. It was by far and away the best decision I have ever made and I have never looked back. My best advice is that if you cannot get in as a pilot, do not consider for a moment the option of being a nav/WSO - it is the wrong move and will have lifelong repercussions.

Biggus

24th Dec 2006, 07:36

Some years ago the RAF published in open literature it's intention to move towards a '....pilot centric airforce...', or words to that effect (no change there I can hear some people say). This included moves to make the SH force all twin pilot as opposed to pilot/nav, etc.
The artcile said that by 2015/2020 (not sure which, article is probably in the loft - but I won't be going there again until it's time to put the Xmas decorations away!) the RAF would need approximately 100 Navs/WSOs! It also went on to say that there were currently over 1,000 in service (can't remember if it was 1,200 or more like 1,500). So you work it out - that is why WSOs are currently only being offered SSCs!
By 2020 the only aircraft needing WSOs will be GR4 (and maybe not for long), MRA4, E-3D front end (if they haven't redone the flight deck as a mid life update!). F3, C-130K, VC-10, MR2 etc will all be gone - and what will have happened to their WSOs? The 100 figure quoted above also assumed 21 MRA4s and 3 Sqns, as opposed to 12 and 2. So 80 is likely to be a more accurate figure. Some of those 80 are already serving today! Yes, there are other 'console operators' jobs that WSOs do, E-3D back end, ASTOR, etc, but other trades will be there doing the same job - they are not WSO specific roles.
It is against this background that you are considering a potential career as a Nav/WSO. You will be swimming against the tide! By all means find a rewarding and exciting career - but there are other alternatives, and if you still elect to go WSO, do so with your eyes open, and don't believe all the glossy PR.

AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS YOUR CHOICE!

Immelmann

24th Dec 2006, 09:12

Having flown front and backseat (instructor), trained a lot of WSO´s, I believe, if a man is thinking of becoming a NAVIGATOR and not immediately has the instinct to choose a pilot carreer, he probably is not quite the "pilot type".
Met no student pilot, who considered from the beginning to fly as a navigator!
And I had alot of student pilots.
Maybe there is a difference GAF to RAF? Don´t think so.

But obviously this question was adressed to EX Naviagtors! I do appologize jumped on this thread!:)

Standing to my opinion by experience!