Crosswind landings GRR!!!

[speedbird268]

Why do i think into things too much! ok... here is what i think ewhich i know is wrong:

if you use left rudder the plane will turn left, if you use right aileron the plane will turn right. SO...

If i do that on landing i am counteracting the rudder by using opposite aileron. So why cant i just land without rudder. i know i will be a mess on touch down but i cant seem to get the approach correct however somehow i managed to land fine before in a crosswind with rudder and aileron but i seemed to have enteredt it wrong another time.

[FlyingForFun]

if you use left rudder the plane will turn left, if you use right aileron the plane will turn rightNot that simple. Rudder yaws the aircraft, aileron rolls it.

What's happening Depends whether you use the crabbed appraoch or the wing-down approach.

For the crabbed approach: you need to yaw the aircraft to straighten up the nose, so that's where the left rudder comes in. The secondary effect of the rudder is roll, so you need right aileron to produce roll in the oposite direction - so the two roll effects cancel each other out, but there is enough yaw to line the aircraft up with the runway.

For the wing-down approach: you need to yaw the aircraft to straighten up the nose, so the initial bit is exactly the same as for the crabbed approach. But once you've done that, the wind begins to blow the aircraft off the centre-line. So you roll the aircraft into wind using aileron - the sideways component of lift now counteracts the wind. Being banked, though, will cause yaw, so you must maintain enough rudder to counteract the yaw from the bank.

I think you really need to sit down with an instructor and discuss this, though, because it sounds like you have some serious gaps in your understanding which can't be rectified by reading a post on an internet forum.

FFF
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[GrkPilot]

If you want to put side load on the landing gear don't use rudder :ugh:

[Paat]

I think you really need to sit down with an instructor and discuss this, though, because it sounds like you have some serious gaps in your understanding which can't be rectified by reading a post on an internet forum.

FFF
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Completely agree with FFF, this is not something that can be explained and fully understood here without running the risk of a subsequent landing incident or worse!

Regards

Paat

[Miserlou]

"can't be rectified by reading a post on an internet."

But we can try.

Let us visualize a crosswind from the left. You are tracking the cenreline in balanced flight. There is a difference between the aircraft heading and the runway heading/direction of flight (wind correction angle). If you apply right rudder, the nose of the aircraft will move to the right. However the left wing, due to the increase in airspeed in relation to the right wing, will rise. The ailerons are used to keep the wings level and stop the turning effect.

The maximum crab angle (difference between aircraft heading and direction of flight) is reached at either full aileron deflection or full rudder deflection where the two cease to cancel each other out. I don't remember ever running out of aileron so it is safe to say that the rudder will be the limiting factor.

Practice adding rudder and maintaining wings level at altitude. This is exactly what you do when you land in a crosswind.

[speedbird268]

Thanks for the help i appreciate it. I have done some more flying today and starting to get the hang of it. We had 10 knots gusting 15 but it was almost down the rwy:p

[Andy_RR]

I found that x-wind landings properly 'clicked' with me when my instructor doing my tailwheel endorsement/differences took me to a strip that was pretty much full x-wind component and made me approach and fly the length of it then go around.

It seemed like it must have been at least 25kts x-wind, but the exaggerated control inputs needed to do the manouevre finally cemented in my brain/reactions what each of the controls were actually doing.

Waving the hands in the air going through the theory was a pale imitation of this practical demonstration. For me, even doing circuits with a 5kt x-wind was a poor learning experience because the control inputs you need to sense are easily masked by turbulence, wind gradient or other disturbances.

my 2p

A

[Riverboat]

Having flown for a long time from an aerodrome with a single runway (hard) that is often subjected to quite strong, sometimes very strong, crosswinds - it is in an exposed position on an Island - I strongly belive that there is only one way to land an aircraft in a crosswind - or a crosswind of some significance, and that is wing down method. Not wings level as one of the posters wrote - this would not be good news in strong and gusty condistions as the upwind wing could easily get caught and lift up - a rather unpleasant condition that could easily lead to an accident.

No, keep the wing down. No need to lower the wing until you are fairly close to the touchdown -maybe 10 ft off the ground - and keep the wing down so that the upwind wheel touches down fist. Keep the weight on that wheel all the way through to slow taxiing.

How do you keep the wing down for maybe 10 seconds without the aircraft turning into wind?. By using opposite rudder. You are now yawed in the free air, but flying straight down the runway. You put the opposite rudder on shortly after (or at the same time) as lowering the wing. Don't put too much on at the start - just a small amount - and then as much as you need, which is often quite a lot.

Mainly though, concentrate on landing on the upwind wheel, and keep the weight on it.

I may not have explained it brilliantly, but I assure you that this system works, and most professional pilots do it. "Kicking straight" is a no-no in a really strong crosswind as it has the propensity for lifting the upwind wing, not something you want.

[FlyingForFun]

"Kicking straight" is a no-no in a really strong crosswind
Not true at all, Riverboat.

If wing-down works for you, that's fine. But the crabbed approach works equally well for pilots who are proficient at it, and that includes most airline pilots (because it feels more comfortable for the pax, and is less likely to result in an engine scraping the ground).

I agree with most of your post, and your advice on wing-low landings is good, but please don't rubbish other perfectly good methods just because they are not your method of choice.

In answer to your statement about the possible lifting of a wing, a crabbed approach requires lots of (probably even full) into-wind aileron to be applied as soon as the wheels are on the ground (exactly the same the wing-low method) in order to prevent this.

FFF
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[Miserlou]

And this is why FFF suggested that it isn't a good subject for internet discussion.

There are no absolutes or techniques which some-one will not find an exception to.
'Crabbing' approaches end in 'wing down' method landings anyway. My explanation ended above the runway at the point where the crab is removed, ie. in the flare. The coordination between rudder application and aileron input is the key to the success of the crosswind landing and if you can't straighten the aircraft at this point, a landing should not be attempted. I take no issue with the fact that 'normally' the aileron is increased such that the upwind is lower.

I made no attempt to cover the actual touchdown as this may differ according to type. Some aircraft have very little clearance due to low wing config, little or no dihedral and or long wings.

The term 'kicking straight' is used to get through to nosewheel drivers the fact that they should use their feet to line up with the runway. 'Kicking' sounds like a very hit and miss expression.
Should read 'rudder pressure should be increased to align with the runway and the aileron used to stop the wing lifting.'

[jamestkirk]

Someone above did say about the crab method by holding rudder in. personally don't teach this as it means flying the aircraft low, slow and out of balance I normally teach students to assess the wind and point the aircraft to wind by whatever amount is needed. making sure that ailerons control cenreline etc.

Does anyone else do this or the rudder method

[tonyhalsall]

I think I am a bit confused now.

Surely if the approach is to be at least relatively stable the approach will have to be 'wing down.' I just can't visualise a flat crabbing approach with wings level and I am not sure how that can be reasonably achieved without taking the a/c outside of its normal stable operating envelope.

Why not just let it fly in a stable condition with the pilot corrections being within stable parameters.

Dunno if that makes any sense - but what I am saying is that most aeroplanes want to fly and will fly with little workload and surely it is better to keep the a/c in this happy state than try to push, pull and squeeze it into unnatural flight conditions when the easy thing works best anyway.

Tony

PS - At great risk of being found out as being incredibly naiive despite having my license since 1987 - Is crabbing and wing down not one and the same thing anyway?

[Mariner9]

Tony, how is a crab approach not stable? If correctly flown, the TS wont show a turn, and the slip ball will be dead central. On the other hand, the wing-down method is a side-slip, and the slip ball will most definately not be centred.

Crabbing and wing down are not the same. When crabbing, you are flying wings level at an angle into wind which compensates for the X wind component, allowing you a straight approach to the runway. In the flare, and just before wheels touch, it is necessary to kick the rudder to attain runway heading.

In the wing down, you are side slipping into wind ie ailerons into wind, opposite rudder to maintain heading.

In my aircraft (Pioneer 300), the wings are too low and the gear too close coupled to use wing down in owt but the smallest X wind component. Would have thought that would be the case too for your Eurostar :confused:

[tonyhalsall]

I am struggling to visualise what I actually do and I do it almost all of the time cos the field I now fly from has only one runway.................

I tend to fly 'by feel' and (I think!!) I feel that allowing the wing to drop into wind and correcting with rudder it feels more stable than a flatter approach using power as flat crabbing feels more like I am fighting the aeroplanes natural tendancy and it seems like a bigger workload.

I am sorry if that does not sound too scientific but I have never really thought that much about what I do. maybe it is because more recently in my flying hobby I have been more focused on microlights and I tend not to do much in the way of powered approaches as I like to use as much of the aircrafts natural flying ability as I can - rather than the engine.

I will concentrate on my technique next time so I know what actually do - I don't really think about it.

[davidatter708]

At the end of the day it don't matter what method you use just as long as you feel comfortable and aint going to have an accident.
Dave

[Shunter]

Having learnt at Leeds/Bradford it's a novelty when you don't have a crosswind landing.

Boot the rudder in the flare to straighten up and make sure the wheels are in line with the runway (always a good idea), then tip the opposing wing down to stop it wandering off the centreline (yaw causes roll etc etc..). Putting the wing down also stops the wind getting underneath it and causing soiling of underwear.

And don't forget to use some into-wind aileron once you're down.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I found that x-wind landings properly 'clicked' with me when my instructor doing my tailwheel endorsement/differences took me to a strip that was pretty much full x-wind component and made me approach and fly the length of it then go around.

I've had an instructor make me fly about 1km six feet above the runway in a crosswind, but I'm not sure it helped my landings much.

Here's a solution to crosswind landings:

(1) Get a floatplane.

(2) Land into wind every time.

(Which is not difficult even with long thin lakes, as you tend not to get winds right across the lake, on account of where would such a wind come from and where would it go to?)

[shortstripper]

Here's a solution to crosswind landings:

(1) Get a floatplane.

(2) Land into wind every time.

(Which is not difficult even with long thin lakes, as you tend not to get winds right across the lake, on account of where would such a wind come from and where would it go to?)

Cheat := ;) .... But what about if there's a swell to deal with? (I'm thinking more of sea landings than lake) I assume you land along the waves even if the wind is across them?

SS

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But what about if there's a swell to deal with?

Wouldn't know, sorry. My one landing on the sea was in a sheltered bay in a flat calm.

[FlyingForFun]

When I did my float-plane rating we did x-wind landings. Reason being, so my instructor told me, that you need to do them when landing or taking off from rivers.....

FFF
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[moggiee]

Having flown for a long time from an aerodrome with a single runway (hard) that is often subjected to quite strong, sometimes very strong, crosswinds - it is in an exposed position on an Island - I strongly belive that there is only one way to land an aircraft in a crosswind - or a crosswind of some significance, and that is wing down method.
Try that on a low wing aeroplane with big flaps and you are likely hear unpleasant graunching noises!

Crosswind landing technique is very often dictated by aircraft type and design. For example, a Hercules employs the wingdown technique because of the high wing and the undercarriage whereas a VC10 uses the crab technique because of the low wing and big flaps (in fact,in strong crosswinds the preferred technique for the 10 to use an intermediate flap setting and higher approach speed to further reduce the risk of damage).