Would you recommend a career in the military [Archive]

SaddamsLoveChild

18th Dec 2006, 13:39

Was asked the same question yesterday at a family luncheon and my answer direct to his father and the individual concerned was: Yes if its for a short-service commission but only after having secured a degree in something useful to either build on when he is in the service or to gain Fg experience to get his licenses and leave for civvy street. Otherwise the answer was a resounding NO!:=

Never thought I would say that when I joined over 21 years ago, in fact I wouldnt have said it 4/5 years ago.............tells a tale I suppose.

L J R

18th Dec 2006, 13:39

Yes, but not THIS military.

Chugalug2

18th Dec 2006, 13:51

Never thought I would say that when I joined over 21 years ago, in fact I wouldnt have said it 45 years ago.............tells a tale I suppose.

Could you enlighten us on the significance of the second figure SLC? Not trying to pry or anything, and if you'd rather not I'm sure we'd all understand! Just curious, that's all. ;)
As to myself, left 33years ago and have unhesitatingly recommended the RAF to all enquirers. Not now though, having read the various threads on this Forum. Now I feel sadness and anger in just about equal proportions, sadness at what the service I love has been reduced to and anger against those who have contributed to its downfall. :sad:

308Win

18th Dec 2006, 14:14

It's a difficult one this. I joined 10 years ago and was lucky enough to be offered a SSC out of Uni and was only offered a PC and a juicy carrot of a job 2 months ago in a vain attempt to keep me (despite no ISS or JOCC:E ).

Would I do it again? Probably. I have had ball, done some things that Joe Bago'donuts on the high street would never even dream of doing and have had the privilege of working with some great people.

That said, there are downsides: higher Op tempo means more time away, less good deals, longer working hours and overstretch.

If a life behind a desk doesn't float your boat, then there are worse jobs out there, but in this day and age you would be foolish to enter without an alternative plan just in case. I have no doubt doing what we do and facing the responsibilities so early in our careers help make most of us better people.

I turned down my PC - priorities change and to be honest, the thought of doing 12 hr days 5 days a week with limted chance for leave doesn't fill me with joy, but for a fresh faced slightly less cynical young thruster it's a pretty good life charging around the blue tearing the arse out of someone else's jet... In the end, the individual must make his own decision. I have never regretted it and I don't know too many people that REALLY do (despite the grumbling:} ).

SaddamsLoveChild

18th Dec 2006, 14:29

Chugalug: sorry mate typo corrected now to read '4/5' years. A bit busy and got distracted

threepointonefour

18th Dec 2006, 16:46

No.

Unless you have a burning desire to fly fast jets - then there's only one place you can do it. But best to do so on a SSC if available.

Everything else can be done outside. You can even get shot at in AfgIrak as a Journo. For more money. Much more.

And sadly the positive secondary effects are also dwindling; mess life, course/sqn spirit etc. Much of it is a sign of the times. A great proportion of it is a downward slide of service values and principles.

Biggus

18th Dec 2006, 17:02

This has been done before, as indeed have most things on pprune....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82439

Started in Feb 2003, 5 pages, 86 replies, and things have only got worse!

Always a Sapper

18th Dec 2006, 17:36

Normally Yes.....

But not with this morally deficient and incompetent Labour Government in charge, or come to that anything remotely resembling a Government with the same individuals in it as this one...

They are not fit to lead a troop of Girl Guides much less a fine nation as the United Kingdom.

Mr Teatime

18th Dec 2006, 17:43

countdeblades

18th Dec 2006, 18:25

I have to ask the question as I have just convinced a son of a friend that the RAF wasn't for him. He is smart and hard working and I couldn't bring myself to lie to him. I really cannot recommend a career here anymore. I was encouraged to join the RAF by a serving member and have in my long service career recommended this life to many. Just interested if this was a common occurance with impacts on recruitment? :sad:

PVR......... scuse me for splitting hairs but your original title was about a career in the military. You then say you advised against a career in the RAF. :hmm:

It may come as a surprise but there are other Services within the military....... did you try and sell them to the lad?

I would highly recommend a career in the military (albeit green:ok: ) but would not want to see someone miss out on a spell in the forces because they were put off by the blinkered advice of someone who thinks that 'military' stops at the RAF Careers Office:ugh:

Standing by........

Merry xmas

polyglory

18th Dec 2006, 19:20

I have to ask the question as I have just convinced a son of a friend that the RAF wasn't for him. He is smart and hard working and I couldn't bring myself to lie to him. I really cannot recommend a career here anymore. I was encouraged to join the RAF by a serving member and have in my long service career recommended this life to many. Just interested if this was a common occurance with impacts on recruitment? :sad:
My family having been all Army , before Waterloo and beyond, my brothers and I have been all Air Force, besides my self, being Merchant Navy and Air Force.
My children will make their own choices and they have said If and when we make our decision it will not be the in the Armed Forces of the UK.
Its their choice and I can understand their decision, a very sad day indeed in my view to see a family tradition end.
But I do admire their decision, they are heading South to OZ and Bon Voyage and they will be welcomed with open arms, to what ever Service they decide to join.
I could go on, but I am sure you get my drift.
Grandfathers old Regiment
Nec Aspera Terrent

toddbabe

18th Dec 2006, 19:21

unless your a pilot where you get the best experience and best training then not a chance, it has changed beyond all recognition in the last twenty years.

Biggus

18th Dec 2006, 21:16

Don't know why I bother........

pvr not dwr

18th Dec 2006, 21:24

[quote=countdeblades;3026230]PVR......... scuse me for splitting hairs but your original title was about a career in the military. You then say you advised against a career in the RAF. :hmm:

Thats because I'm in the RAF and can't recommend (although prepared for jointery i.e Air wing Hms Garrison afgannyraq). I wondered if other (for now) services would recommend.

:confused:

Jeep

18th Dec 2006, 21:24

Yup. Bloody marvelous.

h73kr

18th Dec 2006, 21:24

I have to ask the question as I have just convinced a son of a friend that the RAF wasn't for him. He is smart and hard working and I couldn't bring myself to lie to him. I really cannot recommend a career here anymore. I was encouraged to join the RAF by a serving member and have in my long service career recommended this life to many. Just interested if this was a common occurance with impacts on recruitment? :sad:

I would say you absolutely did the right thing. I joined the RAF more than a few years ago myself, stayed for about 6 years, and to be frank it was (and presumably still is) a complete shower of sh#te that is so massively up it's own arse it can't even recognise it's transparent and manifold failings. Maybe I was a square peg in a round hole, but recruiting and retaining skilled and intelligent staff and expecting them to routinely do things they don't really want to do 'just because' is always going to be a problem I would say. Better oppurtunities out than in I would think, on the whole.

countdeblades

18th Dec 2006, 21:34

pvr not dwr

18th Dec 2006, 21:39

Don't know why I bother........

To be fair Biggus some of us where hot and sandy CAW first time this went round. My advice and opinion has changed as a direct result of the overstrech of the last three years.

Interesting reading and comparison however.

pvr not dwr

18th Dec 2006, 21:42

[quote=pvr not dwr;3026462]

Understood..............

but send the lad down the Army Careers Office :ok:

But I like him he's a good kid:)

countdeblades

18th Dec 2006, 21:48

[quote=countdeblades;3026483]

But I like him he's a good kid:)

That could have been beaten out of him in the RAF :rolleyes: The system seems to have worked thus far...........:sad:

The Helpful Stacker

18th Dec 2006, 22:00

I was asked at my last assessment (when I has made my intention to serve my current commitment and no more clear) if I would recommend the RAF to a friend. "Not if I wanted them to stay a friend" was the only answer I could honestly give.

If you were at your wits end and had no other options then yes, as a last resort, I would recommend the military but ever since Options For Change the military have taken a beating from its political and quasi-political (high ranking military) masters and it doesn't appear it'll end soon.

Yes I know the military has always played second fiddle to the other government portfolios at the treasury trough but it appears in recent times its been taken to new levels and the lack of ability for the rank and file to realistically do anything about it is being fully capitalised.

As I always say though, overall I have enjoyed my service and feel I have contributed to the best of my abilities and will look back mainly with fond memories but I fear for the future and those I leave to go on.

h73kr

18th Dec 2006, 22:05

'Helpful Stacker' you've just reminded me of my final annual assessment before I binned my Number Ones....

Sgt. 'what shall I put as your ambition?'

...'erm, to leave the airforce and specialise in something else'
(wasn't being provocative, just factual)

- pause -

Sgt. 'erm, I can't really put that down'

-pause -

'oh, why not?'

Sgt. ....'well, it's not going to do your career in the RAF much good is it?'

:D

Just couldn't quite grasp the concept that I actually wanted to leave!

DESPERADO

18th Dec 2006, 22:15

Almost time to leave. 19 years man and boy. Going because:
a. Its time, don't want to be sweaty old bloke in crewroom.
b. Wife wants to move overseas, somewhere nice and sunny where it doesn't take 3hrs to drive 50miles and you don't have to queue for eeeeeeverything! And somewhere that still has English as its primary language when dealing with utilities companies on the phone.
c. I am pretty tired - had 12 years continuously on Op Sqns.

But, I have loved every minute of it!!!! The places I have seen, the things I have done. I am very proud of my contribution. Kids leaving school could really get a lot out of a military career - I am RAF, but I think all 3 services have much going for them. I have seen so many kids over the years who have been made into men (and women) by the services.

We all get a bit jaded after a while - but I must admit I am a little surprised by the whining on this site. I have done 14 or so Op tours and enjoyed them more than everything else. I have also made the point on other threads that I stopped believing a long time ago that I was doing it for Queen and Country (because the Country doesn't give a sh!t). Working hard and fighting with my mates, knowing that the guys on the ground are relying with their lives sometimes on me doing my job right are the reasons that I have stuck with it and the reason that I feel proud to have served - I can't think of too many other jobs, police, fire maybe, that could give even remotely the same sense of comradeship and teamwork.

I have actively encouraged, and still am encouraging my son and the kids from my local cadet sqn to join up.
Life is too short to sit behind a desk and watch it on CNN pass you by.

johnny99

18th Dec 2006, 22:52

A big yes. Have completed the first 16 years with another 16 to go. Loved every miniute. Away as much now as I was when I joined my first Sqn many moons ago. It is not as good as it was but older and bolder guys said that to me 16 years ago. To all potential recruits I advise you to go in with your eyes open, be prepared for hard work and time away but over all enjoy it. Yes the airships need to make some changes as I don't really want to be the one to switch the lights off.

A Merry Christmas to all.

Second that. Anyone who is prepared to do some hard work, want’s do something extraordinary, work with some truly unique, talented and motivated individuals then join the military. Sure every organisation has its highs and lows and every generation has a different vision for their service. In our hearts we don't do it for the politicians, or the country; in the end they all turn their backs at some point. We do it for each other because we know what we share something unique. The RAF set me up for life - my advice to anyone is go for it: give it your all and reap the return.

argue for your limitations and they're yours

Pongochap

18th Dec 2006, 23:01

Almost time to leave. 19 years man and boy. Going because:
a. Its time, don't want to be sweaty old bloke in crewroom......

But, I have loved every minute of it!!!! The places I have seen, the things I have done. I am very proud of my contribution.....

We all get a bit jaded after a while - but I must admit I am a little surprised by the whining on this site. I have done 14 or so Op tours and enjoyed them more than everything else.....

Life is too short to sit behind a desk and watch it on CNN pass you by.

Desperado,

Bravo, and from a Crab - well I never!

The military has many issues but I'm still astounded at the whining that goes on as we get paid to complete flying training and then operate front line aircraft. The crewroom will not decide whether the Army gets Chinhooks or the RAF JSF etc.... so why not focus on what you can influence.

It's a job without equal as it's not a job, and you're surrounded by some exceptional people.....

What I'd say is don't expect to warm and comfortable throughout your military career and don't let the whinging majority stop you and make you think life is better sat behind that desk, watching it on a box.

Finally - know when it's right to go and you start to avoid doing what you're put on that op tour and in that aircraft for..... just because you can't think of anything better to do.

Otherwise, I'd recommend it to anyone. It was always different 'In our day'. But, as Desperado, says

I have loved every minute of it!!!! The places I have seen, the things I have done...

Well said D

Rigga

19th Dec 2006, 11:44

I have advised elsewhere, to enlist for the minimum term possible, get what qualifications they can out of it and some really good training and experience in whatever trade/specialisation they wished for.
During their time in (whatever service) they will either like it or not, but can exit as contracted with at least "a trade" and experience behind them.
I have also recommended the easier option of comissiondom first, trade second.

So my answer is Yes! - But use it like it owes you something.

Army Mover

19th Dec 2006, 12:05

My daughter had a flying scholarship from the ATC and had her sites set on a career in the RAF. My son was intent on joining the Royal Marines. This Government has managed to put paid to all of that. :=

flyboy007

19th Dec 2006, 17:10

Nope! Nope! Nope!

Wrathmonk

19th Dec 2006, 17:35

Not as a full career. With the amount of "stuff" being done by all 3 services you have pretty much "seen it, done it" very early on. Assuming short term engagements will still be around I still think the military has much to offer up until you want to get some stability, see the wife and kids etc. Stability and military life are genrally not compatible (although I grant you some people have been very lucky). That is then the time to launch a second career be it airlines or something totally different. Personally I'm coming up to an option and will be taking it - I've done "my operational bit" (and more) over the last 20+ years and sadly any future "bits" will always be in a CAOC / HQ or something similar.:sad:

threepointonefour

19th Dec 2006, 19:05

I guess you could pose this one at all those serving members who wouldn't recommend the RAF as a career to a young man/woman ...

"Why do you stay?"

If you can answer that and not use the words "money", "cash" or "pension", then you've obviously found the end of the rainbow.

I think that life is far too short to do a job you don't like or believe in, whatever that may be. You are a long time dead.

For those of you who stay, I recommend the FISH principle.

flyboy007

19th Dec 2006, 19:12

Let me be the first to reply; I'm not staying. Agree, life is too short.

SaddamsLoveChild

20th Dec 2006, 08:28

Me neither, I freely admit I am prostituting myself for the pension; it doesnt make me a bad person. It is clear that the service wants people only to stay for a short time and go before they want stability and qualify for the pension which is expensive. Experience is nice to have but it costs money and uncle Gordy wont give us any, to that end the agile, fit deployable air force doesnt want to deploy with an extended baggage train, however with nearly 40% of the RAf unfit to deploy because of medical/fit test issues it is hard to see how we can be agile!!:ugh:

PVR timed for 3 days after my pension point............got my tin of green paint and will use it to paint the grass green if it isnt greener out side.

threepointonefour

20th Dec 2006, 09:21

... tin of green paint and will use it to paint the grass green if it isnt greener out side.

From a cursory glance, I reckon that not only is the grass is greener but the sky is also bluer. But I might just have to work!

OOpsIdiditagain

20th Dec 2006, 09:37

Not a chance!

L1A2 discharged

20th Dec 2006, 09:38

Strangely, despite leaping out myself, I would still recommend suitable candidates to try to join up, any Service.

The life can be brilliant, camaraderie is still there - especially doing the job we are established for in dangerous locations.

Unfortunately the enjoyment at home bases has been eroded to the point of oblivion, too much trivia, too little time to do the job to the standards we were brought up with - its all 'now, now, now'. Little availablity for longer term outlook.

NorthCountryBoy

20th Dec 2006, 12:21

My advice to anyone considering joining the RAF right now would be to choose very carefully whose advice you take !! - . I have read with interest a lot of balanced and informative posts on this thread and from some of those you an easily pick out the current serving posters who are understandably becoming dis-illusioned with the RAF and the ones who have been out long enough to be viewing thier experiences with the rose-tinted spectacles that a few years away from it all brings (I include myself in this bracket).
Having served 10 years in a non-commisioned ground trade I can honestly say that I thoroughly enjoyed at least 90% of that time. I saw some amazing places & sights, worked with some great people and enjoyed a sense of camaraderie and teamwork that from my experiences in the 6 years I have been out of the RAF I believe does not exist anywhere outside of a military environment.
I am very proud of my time in the RAF, and without question the values, skills and knowledge I picked up during my time have enabled me to get to where I am now - but would I recommend it to anyone else ???? - not a chance !!. Toward the end of my RAF career I saw the way things were going and voted with my feet - I've never looked back since, and from following threads on here and speaking to friends who are 'trapped' by the lure of imminent promotion / looming pension and still serve, I have no reason to think I was wrong.
If I were so presumptious as to think that someone would actually FOLLOW my advice - it would be to think VERY carefully for yourself and don't be swayed by anyones advice good or bad.

Grumpy106

20th Dec 2006, 12:45

Without a doubt - yes. However, be careful what Service and Branch you choose. The operational branches will provide excellent job satisfaction, whilst the support side of things also have their merits. Having served 18 years as an operator both in the air and on the ground, I can safely say that I have enjoyed every minute, have worked with some exceptional people, done some incredible things and seen some amazing sights. Take the nay-sayers opinions with a pinch of salt. There are a lot of disgruntled people on these forums who I am sure would admit to having had a good time at some point in their careers. Yes, things have changed, mostly for the worse, but the people who I am working with now, only a few months out of training in the majority of cases, are having as good a time now as I did at their stage of career. They listen to my tales of 'the old days' (God, I sound ancient) with a wry smile and buy me a pint of mild every once in a while to keep me sweet, but one thing hasn't changed - you get out what you put in. Give it a go, it is a different way of life, a vocation not a 9-5 job and will give you a great background for other jobs should you find it is not for you. And good luck!

Merry Christmas to all.

Exrigger

20th Dec 2006, 14:26

Northcountryboy: I was thinking the same as you, I joined up in 68 and had every intention of staying in until age 55, unfortunately they changed the rules and I was the wrong rank at the wrong time and had to go at age 47. I concur with your comments, I have been to some amazing places, worked with fantastic guys of all ranks, been to a real war. I have also worked with the worst types of guys (latter part of my 30 years) but despite the huge changes, cut backs and government/MOD abysmal treatment of the forces these days I would only advise my kids/friends kids etc on the opportunities as I see them and show them where to get the latest advice from and then make their own minds up. I would neither recommend nor put off someone who wanted to join up, to discourage them I think could possibly make the future work load of the current serving personnel harder without new blood coming in.

buoy15

20th Dec 2006, 16:22

I had a fabulous time but there again, it's all about timing - joined in the early 60's and stayed the course to enjoy the best the RAF had to offer - it's all gone now - oh dear! very sad, never mind!

motley2

20th Dec 2006, 18:09

Don't do it!!! Having spent 9 years in the Army and transferring over to the RAF in 2001 it has got worse over the years. I'm putting pen to paper next March on return from the Falklands. Falklands I hear you cry....Yes that's right. 4 months down here after doing 2 in Afghanistan with a possible 2 more months next year.

Tell you what you can do with this job...shuv it up your :mad:

Better things to do with my life......

timex

20th Dec 2006, 18:12

threepointonefour

20th Dec 2006, 19:23

So the first 9 yrs were OK then....:ok: :ok:

But you quote timex as if his last couple were a blip, and that the next 9 will be ok. The truth is that the next 9 will be exactly like the last 2. Only worse.

timex

21st Dec 2006, 09:23

But you quote timex as if his last couple were a blip, and that the next 9 will be ok. The truth is that the next 9 will be exactly like the last 2. Only worse.

No, I actually said the first 9 were OK, nothing about the next x amount of years....Anyone who thinks the future is going to be brighter needs to get a Job as PR for Bliar.

And the quote was tongue in cheek....:) :)

threepointonefour

21st Dec 2006, 09:41

And the quote was tongue in cheek....:) :)

Sorry - missed the tongue and cheek ;)

joe2812

25th Feb 2007, 09:13

Hello again all,

I was hoping if I could ask your opinions on whether or not the RAF of today is still worth joining. As current or ex service-folk I figured it was better to hear it from the horses mouth rather than the glossies and the guys at the AFCO.

The RAF is something i've always wanted to do, a Pilot in particular. Mum and Dad were both in the RAF, grandparents RAF, numerous family friends, god-parents and the like... Some still in but most out by now.

I'm a 20 year old who has just left University part way through the second year of a BEng Aero course. Difficult to explain and I know it doesn't look too good on me to have dropped out (although I prefer 'withdrawn'!) without completing.
Unfortunately I just wasn't enjoying the course and if i'm honest - and it's not nice to admit - my family were struggling to pay to have me there. I came home at Christmas and was just so unhappy at the thought of having to go back I decided not to return.

As it stands i've been working full time since then trying to decide what to do. The RAF was almost certainly my choice after Uni, but my degree put me off flying and the entire Aero industry. I know most will be thinking that I obviously didn't want it badly enough and wouldn't have made the cut had I gone through with it anyway, but i'm thinking i'd still like to go for a Commission, possibly Pilot/Aircrew of some sort but then perhaps something new and different.

My other option was to join the Police as i've been carrying out the duties of a Special Constable down where I was at Uni for a while. I know that coppers are mostly hated but I figured it's an enjoyable job, scope to move away and try lots of different areas of speciality etc.

Anyway, to the point...

I know that the RAF of today isn't the RAF that you joined. Less fun, less money, and more top-heavy than ever. My Dad has said the same, and that if I join now ten years down the line i'll be saying exactly the same.

But in reality, is a Commission in the RAF something you would recommend? Were it your child, is service life in this day and age a option you'd throw into the mix?

Be sure I have my tin hat on for the incoming, and prepared for the "if you have to ask then you don't want to do it badly enough" posts, but would appreciate some honest opinions.

Many thanks :ok:

Joe.

jayteeto

25th Feb 2007, 09:22

When I joined in Jan 1980, people were saying the same things as they do nowadays. No money, poor leadership, bad government, blah blah. I have been out three years and I think that people are spending lots of time away, however, some elements always did that!! I would not have done as much time in if I had been on constant operations, but, and BIG but, I do not regret joining up at all. It is a life that you have to see to believe. Good friends, great experiences, ups and of course downs. Recommended?? Of course, 100%, do not listen to whinging old duffers like me and in 22 years time, you will be blah blah blah about how it was better in 2007......

Raymond Ginardon

25th Feb 2007, 09:40

I would agree with jt.

However, and you knew it was coming because you made a reference to it, you will be competing with people who have a single minded UNQUENCHABLE BURNING DESIRE to do it.

I wouldn't be put off by little setbacks (believe me, when you look back they will seem little) like age and flunked degrees - getting in is (IMHO) more to do with drive and raw potential (oh, and luck).

Never give up,

Ray ;-)

TorqueOfTheDevil

25th Feb 2007, 11:03

I would agree with the above two replies - there are many features of service life which a lot of people might find disagreeable (the amount of time away, the lack of control over your destiny, and the constant moving around every three years or so being the most obvious), but if these things don't bother you, you'll enjoy service life. Of course, to some people, the three things I've mentioned are a positive thing, not a drawback!

As for the points Joe makes: there may be less fun to be had than in the 'old days' but that doesn't mean there's NO fun at all any more. Less money - do you mean for the individual, or the MOD as a whole? As aircrew, I feel very well remunerated for my efforts, but as far as I'm aware (and I may be wide of the mark here), people of most trades - certainly the engineers I've spoken to - are content with their wage too.

I've been in nigh on ten years, and I enjoy life very much (though I am in a cushy niche, I must admit), and have no desire to do anything else at the moment. I have enough hours to get a CPL/ATPL without difficulty, but I'd much rather stay in the RAF because the flying's much more fun than almost any civvy aviation, and the lifestyle to my liking too. This may well change depending on where I end up next...

As for withdrawing from uni - okay, it doesn't look great on the CV, but then I've heard of people with much more 'turbulent' experiences in education etc making it into the RAF to fly. Nothing is impossible (well, kind of)!

Good luck,

TOTD

RAF_Techie101

25th Feb 2007, 11:24

At least he can spell and use proper English grammar like what I can... Makes a change from the usual wannabes we get on here...

:8

Rafsux

25th Feb 2007, 11:38

I will concede before I start that any views expressed are my opinion, based solely upon my experience.

The RAF these days will have you away from home much more often and for longer than even a few years ago. Unfortunately the destinations are pretty much hot sandy and less than desirable if you get the idea.

As for pay - not too bad to be honest, if it weren't for that I doubt as many would still be in the RAF in fact.

The lack of morale does to agree come from above, if many are honest they will allow that people are continually expected to do more with less and that the trend sees no reversal in the near future.

Obviously up to you, but there are many downsides to consider before you sign up, spend the time to find out what they are, ideally from a few different bases around the UK to get a real feel for the RAF as a whole. The glossy brochures do paint a nice picture, but then they would wouldn't they given that they are recruitment tools.

On balance I regret having joined, so now it's time to look for a better option........

Good luck.

Clockwork Mouse

25th Feb 2007, 11:59

Suggest you study the posts on PPRuNe for a couple of weeks. If, after that, you still have a desire to join the RAF, then you must have what it takes!

MrBernoulli

25th Feb 2007, 12:03

For life in the operational multi-engine and rotary RAF world the answer would be a categorical NO.

TheWizard

25th Feb 2007, 12:12

For life in the operational multi-engine and rotary RAF world the answer would be a categorical NO.

Why?
Accepting that is your own personal point of view but I think for the benefit of Joe you need to expand.

There are still plenty of people in both of those 'worlds' that are happy to continue with their careers.

Pontius Navigator

25th Feb 2007, 12:19

I would contest the point about moving every 3 years. This may be true of several branches but it is less so for aircrew.

What bases are open to ME? Once AT you will probably remain AT, etc.

For FJ, once Harrier you would probably remain Harrier etc.

True there are moves induced by stations closing but that is not on the 3-year plot. The 3-year plot really kicks in once you reach sqn ldr and decide to climb the greasy pole - but again that is a whole different ball game.

Effectively the sqn shag stays put if he is hacking it.

To some extent whether you move house is up to you and depends on where you put down routes. On the other hand the younger people might look forward to moving every few years - I did. I then did 3 tours, 2 stations, in one house and 4 tours, 3 stations in another; one of those tours was a double and another extended.

For non-aircrew it seems that station life and a static location are not high on the shopping list. You can Admin in an HQ or Engineer at some agency of other and the work is then very much a job with a station tour just one of many career options.

For Ops Support the ATC and FC will have their little slots with either little incentive to move or no places to move to.

The 'escape' tour is often into the training system but the training system is also a fertile hunting ground for the non-formed unit OOA tours.

Clockwork Mouse

25th Feb 2007, 12:51

If, having studied PPRuNe, you are still not put off, I suggest you go for it.

Shoot high and try for a commission as aircrew. You have nothing to lose and much to gain, even if you never actually get to be an aircraft captain. Enjoy the ride. Do not be put off by talk of underfunding, too many demands with too little equipment, too much hot, sandy spots etc. As a junior officer you will not be exposed to the frustrations and pressures which come with more seniority and responsibility. Do not see it as a lifetime commitment. You can decide that much later.

When you are no longer enjoying it, leave. You will be very employable whatever level you reach and will have matured, learned a lot about people and life, and will almost certainly have made life-long friends.

DESPERADO

25th Feb 2007, 12:54

Do it. Loved every minute of it and knowing what I know now would still do it 10 times over!

wokkameister

25th Feb 2007, 13:05

My answer would depend very much when you asked me. 50 feet over Helmand watching the sun rise, then absolutely yes.
Clearing my emails, dealing with an ever growing currency list, leafing through the latest eye catching initiative, which yet again fails to address any of the problems.....then no.

CD's, History of the RAF books, new rank tabs....meaningless. Let's feel like we are valued and people will stay.

joe2812

25th Feb 2007, 15:00

Thanks for the first 10-or so replies... Surprisingly more positive than I was expecting if i'm honest...

I didn't mean less money in terms of pay, I meant it as funding in general. I was brought up in the RAF way of life, growing up in various lovely locations... Lincolnshire, Fife, Gutersloh etc, so know what to expect from the lifestyle.

It's just with so many people seeming to bail out, it puts questions over whether or not it actually is an enjoyable career?

Without a doubt it offers more than 99% of civilian employment. The teamwork, the opportunity to travel (not always to the best catered places in the world), and not having to worry about what to wear in the mornings. The pay while yes important to a degree isn't the be all and end all. If it was i'd have looked to fly buses.

Thanks again for the replies, any other opinions would be great.

Joe.

Melchett01

25th Feb 2007, 15:29

Well without wishing to be a killjoy, I would have to say no I wouldn't recommend it these days.

I joined up almost 10 years ago, and like you, I lay awake the days before I went to IOT wondering if I was doing the right thing. I came to the conclusion that Ithis was something I had always wanted to do and so would regret it later on in life if I didn't and put it down to pre-IOT nerves.

But now, all I can see is the best aspects of military life being slowly eroded and replaced by the accountants and various civilian organizations that are gradually creeping into the armed forces sphere of influence. I can't see much in the way of leadership - their Airships are being strangely quiet whilst the army and navy are becoming increasingly vocal about the conditions we are being forced to endure.

Our political masters lie through their teeth - and infuriatingly get away with it every single time - and don't value us one iota. Yes the money is ok (you will never be rich) although taking the levels of responsibility you will have and comparing them with a civilian management/execs with comparable levels (not types) or responsibility, then we are grossly underpaid.However, one thing that you need to remember is that even the biggest chimp in the RAF will shine in civi street. It will give you an incredible springboard to the future, and whilst you may not realise it at the time, the ability to make life and death decisions under the highest levels of pressure imaginable is a quality rarely found in civi street.

The question is, do you think you can see through an ever growing pile of crap to get to the ever shrinking pile of diamonds at the bottom? If so - then the RAF is probably for you. But hand on my heart, given the current state of affairs, no I can't recomment it. But you are young, give it a try, you have nothing to lose and you might just enjoy it as I once did.

Exrigger

25th Feb 2007, 16:19

Slight thread creep but Melchett01 your comment 'It will give you an incredible springboard to the future, and whilst you may not realise it at the time, the ability to make life and death decisions under the highest levels of pressure imaginable is a quality rarely found in civi street.' does this mean that those who have left the services left this ability behind or that they do not need this attribute once they have left the services.

I joined up as groundcrew but enjoyed my time, saw plenty of places, posted a lot, been to Falklands, Ireland and Gulf War 91 to name but a few. But towards the latter part of my career (the nineties) the RAF life started changing for the worse and no matter how much we bleated about what the changes will do, the management took no notice, so my response would have to be read these forums, ask people you know and then make your own mind up as you are the only one who can decide.

Melchett01

25th Feb 2007, 16:34

Ex,

No it means what it says - your average candidate for finance, manufacturing - pick a sector - will not have had the exerience of making those sorts of decisions and the potential repercussions of getting them wrong. Just because you leave the mob, it doesn't mean that you don't take the experience of making those decisions with you. And should you leave and then decided to jettison all the skills you have picked up, then that's your choice but probably not a good one.

Compared to the average civi st newby Joe's age, whose biggest worry is getting the bosses tea order right or maybe passing a series of accountancy exams (which can be retaken without anyone dying if failed), the average service person will pick up experience involving far far harsher consequences if they fail. And that is most definitely a valuable experience for the future. If nothing else, it allows you to put a lot of seemingly important but in the end trivial mistakes into perspective.

I_stood_in_the_door

25th Feb 2007, 16:57

Joe,

Do not be put off by all the whiners - they have an option after all.

Once you can get your head around the Service (which ever one you choose, thay all have their own foibles!!) 'way of life' you can manage almost anything they hit you with. We are, after all, all volunteers.

After 21 years I am still smiling and enjoying my life in the services and eager for more. And that includes all the camping trips enforced by Mr Bliar and all the other nasty add ons we get nailed for. However, by buggery I have had some fun!!

If all the poor lambs who have posted on here about the poor this and the cr*p that, they must be very naive to think all would be rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up. Its what we do, why do you think we are given a rifle for heavens sake?!?

Not that I always agree with our Govts foreign policy however, I do what I am paid to do. If people have a problem with that, then why join up? Sure, we have our procurement and management problems and the sad losses we see almost daily (I, too have lost close and good friends) certainly expose and sharpen the failings at all levels from the Government down.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, aim high and go for it. Do not be put off by individual perception. The place is full of people complaining about pay, conditions, Op tours etc but they all see the bottom line and carry on. To them I say carry on normal jogging or vacate the building.

Think long and hard about joining - its not always 'jump in and take her to heaven 5 times a day and back for tea and medals' but it is a great way of life and you will learn skills and make friends that will last a lifetime.

Go for it. Sure, things have changed but hasn't the world?

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:8

Exrigger

25th Feb 2007, 17:14

Melchett01 thanks for that, I was not sure if I had read/understood what you had written correctly, but I had.

I_stood_in_the_door, I agree with most of what you say but a lot of the people on here joined up before you and everything was 'rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up', most of us also did what we volunteered for without complaint and also had a lot of fun on the way. But most people are merely saying that the climate in the forces has changed drastically now, so we are not in a position to advise on wether it is a good idea for mr x or y etc to join or not join. With regards to 'If people have a problem with that, then why join up?' again agreed, but what of the people that joined up before it changed, as has been said then they should leave, which is what a lot are doing.

muppetofthenorth

25th Feb 2007, 17:33

Well, I'm still hoping to get in.

I've been reading all the posts here for many months now and still want in, that's not a bad thing, at least in my book.

threepointonefour

25th Feb 2007, 17:43

The RAF is still the only place that you, the British citizen, can fly a fast jet.

Unless you're R Branson Jr.

I agree with the others, including Clockwork Mouse.

ps. I am fairly critical of many RAF things, but can unreservedly say that if you can have as much fun as I did in my first 10-12 yrs, then it'll be worth it. Sadly, for many of us the novelty fades and wears off all together, but that would probably have happened in any job.

Just go for it. You only live once.

I_stood_in_the_door

25th Feb 2007, 17:52

ExRig,

It seems that the majority of problems have been highlighted since T*AT or TWOT came to be.

How many people have since signed up during T*AT/TWOT and still have the nerve to gripe. Problems and failings have been well publicised since it kicked off and during TWOT/T*AT.

That is my problem - many of the peeps joined (with their parents consent - theres plenty of them moaning too) with a view to a '9 to 5' job - something you and I know it isn't.

Apologies to all those that joined before me but I believe in all I posted.

If others don't then thats their right. Why we live in a democracy, no?

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:ok:

Exrigger

25th Feb 2007, 18:20

ISITD, Firstly thanks for your reply and again I agree with what you say, my father actually tried to stop me joining even though as a kid (Aden & Nairobi which was a wonderful time for me) and he himself enjoyed the life.
I know I am probably going to regret this, as these are acronyms I have not heard before (and I am to tired to work them out), but what is TWOT/T*AT, it will probably be obvious when I know.

I_stood_in_the_door

25th Feb 2007, 18:29

ExRig,

T@AT came first - The War Against Terror.

Then our delightful cousins noticed their mistake and it became TWOT - The War On Terror. Or something like that!!

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:D

Exrigger

25th Feb 2007, 18:37

Thanks ISITD, I feel so dumb now :O and as I said its obvious now you have told me, cheers.

Seldomfitforpurpose

25th Feb 2007, 18:48

It's only to be expected, after all you were a rigger :E

Exrigger

25th Feb 2007, 18:55

OK I asked for that :D , cheers for now.

Seldomfitforpurpose

25th Feb 2007, 19:45

Sorry but could'nt help my self :D

TorqueOfTheDevil

25th Feb 2007, 19:51

Okay, my turn (and no I 'm not at my sharpest either!)

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

Can anybody help?

joe2812

25th Feb 2007, 19:58

ISITD = his username...

Dunno the other..

I_stood_in_the_door

25th Feb 2007, 20:46

Chaps,

Lead, Follow Or Get Out Of The F@cking Way!

ISITD

:8

NRU74

25th Feb 2007, 21:12

Joe
You must also consider the ethical apects..
Do you want to be placed in a position where you can be sent into either of two war zones in conflicts which we [I]cannot win ?
Once you sign on you have little or no control over what you do or where you go

Pontius Navigator

25th Feb 2007, 21:31

NRU74

You make a useful point Do you want to be placed in a position where you can be sent into either of two war zones in conflicts which we cannot win ? In what are now called Wars of Choice.

WOC for the politician however not for the soldier. The serviceman has since the Second World War been involved in many conflicts or potential conflicts most of which could not have been foreseen when they joined the services. Some of these too could have been WOC.

Korea was, in a way, a WOC. Then Suez. Kuwait (1961). Indonesian Confrontation was also probably a WOC as it furthered political interests. Aden, Kenya, Rhodesia, Belize - all colonial actions and not foreseen by those already in the services when they blew up.

Only the length stability of the Cold War gave us any certainty of a mission during our careers.

No, anyone joining now is joining a mystery tour that may not include Iraq or Afghanistan!

Rob's Dad

25th Feb 2007, 21:55

(not that the diversion wasn't amusing):D

Joe

I'm in the process of leaving at my 16/38 point. Would I do it all again? Damn right. The RAF is a vocation and you sound as motivated as most of us once were about Service life: you would get such a wide range of experiences and responsibiliy that when you talk to your civvy friends in 4 or 5 years time you will wonder how the hell they get themselves out of bed in the morning.

So why then do you read all the negativity? Don't mean to be patronising but when I joined up I was probably like you are - full of fire and ready to change the world: I could not have given 2-hoots about how long I was on Det, whether or not my family got free dental treatment, how many secondary duties I had to do, or even what the pension was. The bitter 'old' scapers should, I recall thinking, accept the world had changed and get out so us young guns could continue to drive it forward. Sadly though the frantic pace of life which I found exciting when younger became a sapping bind of constant change as I get older. For me, I noticed that when I had a family to consider then I suddenly did care whether I did not see them for weeks and months on end, I did care when they are bottom of the local NHS Dental waiting list for the worst dentist in the area, I did care that my time at home was being spent running clubs and societies for others to enjoy while I was away, and I really did care about my pension.

Slowly but surely, I found was in danger of become the bitter old dinosaur I used to bitch about. I had reached a crossroads when I could either continue to believe that while the emperor is not entirely clothed he is worth accepting for all the great things he brings me (job stability, pension, decent salary, taking a morning off to see my kid in the school nativity play, like minded colleagues and neighbours, leaving my car/house unlocked behind the wire, etc etc) or I could note he was start b*llock naked and would never again respect him the way I used to. I suspect it always was this way and that many people reach a point of weariness circa the 12 year option point when they either persevere onwards or decide enough is enough - which is probably why there are option points.

Fortunately each new generation has within it a group of fit, motivated and capable people who will always be attracted to military life. Seems to me you are at a crossroads now: follow your heart or always think 'what if'.

Good luck

RD

Chugalug2

25th Feb 2007, 22:28

Just a brief endorsement of Rob's Dad's post. I left (PVR'd) after 13years, mainly because having managed to subvert the system and stay flying, albeit via two cancelled ground tours, I realised that the ice would not support a third foray. It was then that the penny dropped, that flying was my first love rather than the Air Force (that's going to get me into a spot of bother with Mrs C!). But I also didn't want to hang around filling up the Mess Complaints Book with tirades against thoughtless young officers. The RAF is essentially a young person's world, run by older persons, which is less fun. My advice, go for it, have your fun and experience a fulfilling though increasingly dangerous life, then leave and start a second career. If however you decide that you want to stay on at that point, it will be a positive choice rather than one driven by inertia. Would I change what I did if given the chance? No way, both joining and leaving were the best decisions I ever made (oh, oh, I see more trouble bearing down!).
Good luck, Chug

Eul0gy

26th Feb 2007, 11:10

i am in the same position as you , looking to join up after two years of a computing degree that was boring and i hated it , i am not looking at pilot becuase i don't have the high school quals , but communications and IT techie.

anyway i would say go for it , i am currently working full time in a job and most of the stuff i have heard from people in the RAF i have heard from people i have worked with in civvi street, complaining that it aint what it used to be, pay aint great and the people at the top don't care about the people at the bottom.

what i can say is that if you get in then you will have all this just like in civvi street but at the end of that you will be a pilot and something mutch better then most civvi street jobs :)

Exrigger

26th Feb 2007, 12:04

Rob's Dad, I agree although my exasperation point came after 25 years, I missed most of one daughters growing up I got back to the family when she was a teenager (nightmare), the youngest I missed a big chunk of her early life. But the wife allways said I put the RAF first and the family second and I had to agree, my change came when they changed all the rules and became political but I still wanted to stay in to the bitter end but was not allowed.

Eul0gy, again agree for all those that think civvy street is better with higher wages, well my experience (again cannot speak for aircrew) is that I have had to live away from home and commuting every weekend for 41/2 years to get a decent wage (still no where near what my rank is paid in the RAF), people still complain about going away for courses, low pay bum management, the one thing that is missing from civvie life is what the services can bring to your life and that is excitement and a unique life experience.

Again this is from my experience prior to 1999, since I have just watched and listened.

startermotor

26th Feb 2007, 12:53

Peoples attitudes towards any form of employment change as their personal circumstances change. I for one have been in for 26 years and on the whole i have had a terrific time. many 'ups' a few 'downs'.
During my time I have had 3 children they are now at university or in 6th form.
Over the past few years i like my buddies have spent between 4 to 6 months a year in one sand pit or another, every year.
This puts a very big strain on family life, therefor my attitude has changed.
Now if you are prepared for this and as a young lad it might not be a factor for you , then do it and enjoy what the services has to offer.
any doubts i suggest you dont.

Mr-Burns

26th Feb 2007, 13:45

Now I know this isn't gonna go down well but anyway ......

If you don't want to fly - don't join the RAF. Its what the RAF is good at. If you want a ground job, join the Army - its what they are good at.

(and I'm not aircrew !!!!)

Doctor Cruces

26th Feb 2007, 17:08

My first boss, who was a Spitfire pilot just as hostilities finished in WW2 told me on a weekly basis that it wasn't the Air Force he joined and bemoaned the fact.

I thought he was mad as it was great.

As I got older and the youngsters I was in charge of weren't even born when I joined, I was telling them that it wasn't the Air Force I joined and I couldn't wait to leave.

They, too, thought I was mad as they thought it was great.

I suspect it will ever be the same.

Glad I'm out though, it wasn't the Air Force I joined when it came time to go!! :)

Doc C

Jinx611

26th Feb 2007, 20:25

I have just joined the RAF, I graduated IOT last year and am currently doing pilot training. All i can say is so far (i appreciate my view may change in 10 years time) is that it's been everything i wanted it to be and more. Where else can you get time off for free or cheap adventurous training? the camaraderie, the banter, the support from mates and colleagues, the health care (not perfect but in many cases better than NHS) the responsibility in some jobs that would take a civvy years to be trusted with. Also, whilst you are young and have no children to worry about (i am assuming you dont!!) what have you got to lose?

I appreciate that i will be going to sandy war zones often (i am streamed ME and want to fly Hercs) and that in the future settling down with someone can be difficult if you re away frequently. But nowadays it's easier to leave than it once was and, if at the end of training, it isn't what you wanted or expected then you don't have to do it for the rest of your life.

I personally love it at the mo and am excited about my new career and am enjoying the life. I also don't plan on staying until i'm 55 as yet but for the next 12 years (short service commission) i am looking forward to the flying, operationally or not. When my 12 years is up i will be in my early 30s still which is plenty of time to do somethig else should i desire.

Hope this helps.:ok:

Jinx x

BelixA

27th Feb 2007, 09:55

Six years ago I would have recommended joining to anyone. But not now. I notice that most of the people saying yes are trying to relive the good old days, but sadly there are no good days and not likely to be.
If you enjoy doing your own admin and very soon having to be a part time PTI aswell as 2 operational detachments a year, guard, orderly dog and all the other ****e jobs that the few of us that are left are being dumped with then please join.
Only 7 years to go :ugh:
If I could afford to PVR i would.

demobcurious

27th Feb 2007, 12:00

I would recommend joing the RAF.

I wouldn't recommend working for this Government.

dallas

27th Feb 2007, 12:30

I would recommend anyone try the military, but also add that it's not a life-long career anymore. Provided they join with their eyes open to the realities of going to sandy places regularly - as some of the youngsters I know do readily accept - they'll enjoy some unique opportunities, even in sh1tty places. It's all about expectations.

I'm a bit older now and getting fcuked around - often unnecessarily - has just drained my desire to stay. We've taken our eye off the ball over the years and now have far too many people getting in the way of our core product, either adding to the workload or distracting people from it.

But for someone young with no better ideas, there are far worse starts than 6-12yrs in the forces. Just keep a healthy eye on the door.

TonkaEngO

27th Feb 2007, 15:03

Listen to Jinx611.

Far too many whingers complaining that 'its not the RAF that I joined etc etc'. Dont let the door slam on your way out guys.
Things have changed and will continue to change - it is a very different world with very different challenges to be faced.
I do speak with some experience - both as airman and commissioned - 26 years total so far. There have been low times but the highs far outweigh them - and continue to do so.
Please do not be put off, but listen to all advice and then make your decision.

Wyler

27th Feb 2007, 15:13

Yes I would.

I have just left after 27 years and I am delighted to be out. I have seen loads of change and I did not like most of it, especially in the last 5 or so years. The kids joining now though, accept it as it is and those that I have seen seem happy(ish) with their lot. No doubt, in 20 years time, they will be as bitter and twisted as the rest of us but, hey ho, whatever.

BelixA

27th Feb 2007, 15:22

There appears to be a pattern forming.
Amazing how the Officers are the ones that think the RAF is worth joining these days.
Its comments and attitudes like "Dont let the door slam on your way out guys" that are causing so many groundies and us aircrew alike to leave.
Try talking to your guys now and then, and you might get the real picture.
Tell me again why we need 400 Group Captains?????

dallas

27th Feb 2007, 15:46

Tell me again why we need 400 Group Captains?????
I refer the gentleman to my previous post:
We've taken our eye off the ball over the years and now have far too many people getting in the way of our core product, either adding to the workload or distracting people from it.

And I would have thought 400 is a bit on the low side isn't it?

Exrigger

27th Feb 2007, 16:16

I refer the gentleman to my previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas
We've taken our eye off the ball over the years and now have far too many people getting in the way of our core product, either adding to the workload or distracting people from it.

So if there are to many people getting in the way of our core business by adding to the work load or distracting people from it, how will adding more Group Captains improve this situation i.e you said 'And I would have thought 400 is a bit on the low side isn't it?' or did you mean that more Group Captains are require to resolve the problems, but less of some of the other ranks?

BelixA

27th Feb 2007, 16:24

I do believe he was Joking.

400 is somewhere near the mark.:rolleyes:

dallas

27th Feb 2007, 16:25

What I meant is I thought we had more than that, especially with medics added to the throng. We certainly don't need any more. What we do need is 100% manning in trades and branches that operate the actual aircraft. We seem to have lots of parasitical trades/branches that were always intended to support those concerned with flying, who have adapted to create their own empires unrelated to flying whatsoever and often with little awareness of it. Admin would be a prime example of contradictory cost and contribution.

Exrigger

27th Feb 2007, 16:37

Thanks Dallas, I did not want to make assumptions, unique I know for some threads :) , thanks again.

achtung

27th Feb 2007, 20:45

I can't knock it. It does provide some great training and sometimes not taken seriously outside the airfield gates... would I do it now..... no. It really is not what it should be...... like the Navy, it has been run down to a point where it no longer functions as well as it should....and from the indications already, will be further shrunk.... keep away mate.

ZOFO

27th Feb 2007, 21:40

To be honest I would quite happily stay, but to quote an old classic "It isn't what it used to be" Some of the new "people" I have had the pleasure to meet/train are just not up to it. I think that the only way round this is to "call me old fashioned" to return to a Scheme of "National Service" but with the provisio of not 6 weeks basic training but 6 to 12 months, thus installing a bit more Military "Way of life"/"discipline back into what is sadly missing in the force(s)(If you want a fighting force, you must train it to fight first and I don't just mean in the boozer on a Saturday Night). Basically the choice is up to the individual, stay in or get another job. It will never happen in my lifetime but the thought was there.:)

I_stood_in_the_door

28th Feb 2007, 07:28

There seems to be many people saying how bad it is now 'but only 7, 12, whatever' years to push. Why not leave now?

Oh sorry, one forgot. Silly me. You must be hanging on for the pension - now isn't that a nice perk to have. A non contributory pension at that.

If its that bad, please go now or shut up. If all is to be believed on here, moral is almost at an all time low and your negativity just adds to the problem.

Make the choice, but please bin the fcuking whining. As I said in an earlier post, we are all volunteers and the answer is simple. March into G1/PSF or Fish HQ and PVR/sign off. Please!!

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:8

teeteringhead

28th Feb 2007, 08:13

A non contributory pension at that.
... come on ISITD, you should know better than that. I can't find the exact words from the AFPRB (yet) but their recommended rates are reduced to account for the pension rights. Put simply, you (assuming you are serving) do contribute, but it's not there on yer pay slip in actual figures.

So if you're serving. RTFM before coming out with stuff like that. Come to think of it, if you're not serving RTFM anyway before coming out with crass remarks like that .......

....... civvies reading this might even believe you, like many of them think we don't pay for MQs.......

Edited to add: Couldn't find chapter and verse from AFPRB Report (last year's before anyone gets excited!) but try this from the Army's "Serving Soldier" website....As a Regular soldier you are automatically a member of the Armed Forces’ Pension Scheme (AFPS). You do not contribute directly from your pay into a pension fund, but the AFPRB does make an adjustment to your salary to take into account the relevant benefits of the Services' scheme when compared with civilian pension arrangements.

QED

charliegolf

28th Feb 2007, 08:38

Teeters,

The pay is even better than it appears then!

More seriously, the pay is the pay is the pay..... everyone coming into the service accepts it as at least very reasonable, and with a free pension on top.

I agree with ISITD where he reflects on the "Only x years to go" sentiments expressed by some. That's only x years of your life gone forever mate.

CG

I_stood_in_the_door

28th Feb 2007, 13:59

Teeters,

Yes, I believe that is all rolled up into the so called 'X Factor' we recieve.

And you mean I get paid more than I actually do? Great - best get another fire going to burn all that cash I failed to spend this month from my almost pop star wages (even huge after my pension contribution, thanks!!).

Still serving and will continue to. And proud to serve my country. Not so the excuse for government we have at the moment.

Bring back Maggie and all who sailed in Her!!

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:8

teeteringhead

28th Feb 2007, 14:24

Bring back Maggie and all who sailed in Her!! ... I'm certainly with you on that one!!:ok:

Pontius Navigator

1st Mar 2007, 18:41

The Armed Forces Pay was originally abated by 9% which was the assumed pensions contribution. About 10 years ago this abatement was reduced first to 8% and then 7%. In other words if a serviceman is paid £100 net then this was actually equivalent to a civilian wage (gross) of £107.52.

Now the X-factor is not linked to the pension abatement but is an uplift of 13% to account for the normal wear and tear of service life over that of civilians in comparable jobs. It is not a combat supplement. Other allowances like food and accommodation refunds, hard lying money, etc etc are also extras.

So let us return to the £100 net that a serviceman gets. His civilian counterpart would get only £95.12 (13% less than the £107.52) from which he would then have his pensions contribution deducted.

I think the maths is right but you will see there is only a £4.88 difference/£100 before the civilian pension is taken in to account. If the pensions contribution was about 7% then this would drop the civilian pay to just £88.50 (our pre-X-factor pay).

What is a typical civilian pensions contribution then?