OOA's dont count!!!

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Evidently, and according to the debrief I have just had from my Grnd Branch Desky, OOA reports are not looked at for promotion boards because everyone gets a god one and its what you do in your primary role at the stns that counts.

The Fat Lame and Lazy will again be rewarded over and above their warfighting contempories because of the stability that their lack of deployability gives them. After a robust discussion it was stated that the OOA reports would be looked at if a snapshot of an individual was required when in direct competition.

I despair for the minority of the service RAF that do deploy time and time again, but who will not be rewarded for it with advancement. I was advised 3 years ago when I returned from a 6 month Telic OOA that warfighting was all well and good but it disrupted reporting patterns and was not a good career enhancing move. The truth is being borne out now.:ugh:

[RETDPI]

It supports the old adage.
"War is no place for the Career Officer"

[BEagle]

"..and it's what you do in your primary role at the stns that counts."

Unless you're an officer - then it's how well you do your secondary duty as Oi/c Officers Mess Summer Ball or whatever.....

That tit 'Thrombo' once said that I didn't have sufficient involvment with the 'station'. Fortunately the Boss put him right on that - looking after the interests of 100+ people at the Flying Club did seem to count, after all. Probably of more use to more people than being some pointless Officers' Mess Entertainments Member counting fruit machine takings.......

[Bladdered]

Oooooooooooooooh yes they are!!

Desky speaks with forked tongue - and the fact that you have done an OOA and well (hopefully) will put you at an advantage over the many who have not done an OOA recently or in some cases at all. All reports are read if you are an A grader, although you have to remember that if you get a 5 minute read (I assume Desky went thro the PB process with you) then you are doing well. The 4 Members of the Board will always give credence to an individual who has reinforced a strong performance in rank with a demanding OOA job well done. Do all that and have secondary duties too and you really are the dogs doodaahs

Ed

[SaddamsLoveChild]

whilst I gree that that is what should have happened he told me to my face that it was NOT read even though I was an an A grade. I am not the only one to have been told this and it is a worrying trend if it is widespread.

Luckily I got the nod but I do worry for the others I met in sandy places that maybe wont reap the rewards for their sweat and tears.:uhoh:

[GlosMikeP]

Evidently, and according to the debrief I have just had from my Grnd Branch Desky, OOA reports are not looked at for promotion boards because everyone gets a god one and its what you do in your primary role at the stns that counts.

The Fat Lame and Lazy will again be rewarded over and above their warfighting contempories because of the stability that their lack of deployability gives them. After a robust discussion it was stated that the OOA reports would be looked at if a snapshot of an individual was required when in direct competition.

I despair for the minority of the service RAF that do deploy time and time again, but who will not be rewarded for it with advancement. I was advised 3 years ago when I returned from a 6 month Telic OOA that warfighting was all well and good but it disrupted reporting patterns and was not a good career enhancing move. The truth is being borne out now.:ugh:
sad if true and not at all how it worked with the Falklands war, when much dross and dead wood got swept aside.

[Rob's Dad]

Oooooooooooooooh yes they are!!
Ed
That may be so Bladdered, but it is not the advice given to 1st ROs in a covering letter from a star-ranking officer. I know because I actually commented adversely on this on the front of this year's AR after reading that letter. My Boss (ex-deskie himself) also phoned up my desk to enquire about this and was told it was correct! I think someone believes the parody that we all still conduct ops from 4-star hotels with pools.

I also found out at the same time that the policy issued (unbeknown to me ATT) in Nov? 04 has been reversed and that people exercising options are again read by PSBs. I assure you this was not the case as last year (after completing 4 month det in hazardous jt multi-national conditions in ME - having first had the temerity to exercise my option point - and, of course, getting the 'usual' glowing write up from my Army boss that I should be promoted immediately) PMA deciding that as I was leaving I would not be boarded and therefore they would not raise an AR on me:= . I also commented appropropriately on the previous policy in my latest AR - strangely no one has replied. Any relationship between this year's hari kari front-page and PSB reading is I'm sure coincidental as my boss was told that I could be promoted in, erm, 4 years:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

I'm not sure how the RAF do it but the RN look predominately at potential. Potential in the next higher Rate / Rank is the key to everything. You may be the best Airman, Flt Lt the service has ever had but if you don't have the potential for the next higher Rank you 'aint gonna get it.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I had a comment along the lines of "he is an excellent airman on operations and has performed in acting/unpaid posts whilst deployed admirably but isn't as involved with station activities as his contemporaries" on an assessment once, in the same year that I clocked up 286 days (LSSA claimable) deployed.:rolleyes:

I suppose its the important things that matter eh?

[Dan Winterland]

I got marked down one year because I didn't have a station secondary duty. That was because I had three very busy Sqn secondary duties. I was actually told that being OIC of the station playgroup carried more weight that being Pilot Leader. (Actually, they strike me as being very similar jobs!).

In the subsequent years I didn't have time for station secondary duties because I was too busy studying for my ATPL!

[Mad_Mark]

because everyone gets a god one

Is he the 1st, 2nd or 3rd RO? :)

[SaddamsLoveChild]

He's the one who preboards you and then puts you forward he sets the initial tone............

[petop]

Have to say for us Army type people, it works in our favour on a CR that you do an OOA.

[Bladdered]

Certainly seems to be some inconsistencies here in terms of advice that need clearing up that I trust DPMA(GT&S) (have a great retirement Sir) and DPMA (O&AA) are I am sure monitoring. ;) ;)

[endplay]

A secondary duty is an opportunity to display an attribute that may not be apparent in a primary role. As an RO you may not necessarily observe this first hand but should comment on it from evidence obtained from other sources. (OIc, success of the Summer Ball, football team etc). Similarly an OOA report is an observation of your subjects performance in his/her primary (and possibly secondary) duties in a different environment and should be used as evidence in your assessment. Ditto post training reports (F292 for OR ground trades)

If you don't do it this way then a sizeable chunk of the an individuals reporting period is lost.

And has it occurred to you that most people get a good OOA report because they rise to the challenge and actually deserve one? I've found that people do the "work hard play hard" bit quite well when given the opportunity.

[brickhistory]

Not useful, perhaps, but maybe of interest:

A fairly recent change for us (USAF) is that one's deployments are now put on the board info sheet - the name/job/education sheet - that the board uses to winnow out the first rejects. After that, they delve (briefly) into one's record.

No deployments = put in the 'consider next time' category.

[RETDPI]

Not useful, perhaps, but maybe of interest:

A fairly recent change for us (USAF) is that one's deployments are now put on the board info sheet - the name/job/education sheet - that the board uses to winnow out the first rejects. After that, they delve (briefly) into one's record.

No deployments = put in the 'consider next time' category.
Simple really, isn't it?
Certainly no more unjust than the long standing RAF practice in my old ground branch. One of the main reasons I PVR'd.
So much for the last words from Cranwell:
"Throw yourself full tilt into the job , show us how good you really are, do all the Service asks of you and a lot more, and then let the career take care of itself"
Silly Boy!

[Klingon]

As an ex-desk officer responsible for pre-boarding I can say that OOA certainly does lend weight but only if the home assessments are consistently supportive. Board officers aren't the idiots you might think, they smell a rat when a guy can't be bothered to get out of his pit at home but is an OOA hero when away.

Prom boards know about the "Halo" effect and will set aside those OOA reports that appear embellished (same goes for loan service reports) and the cut and paste variety (Theatre Cdrs are busy chaps after all).

On the other side of the coin, no OOA and you need a good excuse. In my experience the only guys who I ever heard complaining about the inequity of the system where those who weren't doing so well out of it and hoped that a few theatre medals might boost their chances of a leg up. Sorry guys but there is just too much genuine competion!

[Uncle Ginsters]

Originally Posted by Klingon:
Sorry guys but there is just too much genuine competion!

There is?
Is that why there's all this talk of an SO2-centric FRI to stop said-same 'genuine competition' from leaving?
Is that why it's rumoured that the line on the last board was drawn somewhat lower than ever before, or at least lower than usual? (no disresepect to those succesful on that board :D )
Is thas that why there are an ever-increasing number of Flt Lts looking to leave at their natural break points for a second career rather than pushing for their 'two-and-a-half' ?
I'm not a cynic - but my eyes are firmly open, like many others on this thread! :eek:

Uncle G

[vecvechookattack]

Of course the trouble with a "natural break point" is that it does exactly what it says on the tin. It is designed to weed out those who don't want to commit. Thats what its for....to get rid of the top level of mid seniority guys so that there isn't a surplus all wanting promotion. If nobody went at the break point there would be chaos.

[PTT]

As an ex-desk officer responsible for pre-boarding I can say that OOA certainly does lend weight but only if the home assessments are consistently supportive. Board officers aren't the idiots you might think, they smell a rat when a guy can't be bothered to get out of his pit at home but is an OOA hero when away.
Prom boards know about the "Halo" effect and will set aside those OOA reports that appear embellished (same goes for loan service reports) and the cut and paste variety (Theatre Cdrs are busy chaps after all).
On the other side of the coin, no OOA and you need a good excuse. In my experience the only guys who I ever heard complaining about the inequity of the system where those who weren't doing so well out of it and hoped that a few theatre medals might boost their chances of a leg up. Sorry guys but there is just too much genuine competion!

So what are those of us who spend up to 6 months a year away supposed to do? We certainly won't get "consistently supportive home assessments" since there simply isn't time to get anything constructive done at home, and I'd suggest that anyone who claim's otherwise is actually reliant on an excellent 2ic of whatever secondary duty it is that they claim to be doing.

As for genuine competition, surely this is a military service whose primary purpose is to fight wars? I'd have hoped that experience of those things would lend more wieght to promotion prospects than merely being a decider between two otherwise "consistently supportive home assessments."

[Blacksheep]

Prom boards know about the "Halo" effect May I respectfully suggest that the current ratio of Group Captains and above to Flight Lieutenants indicates that the halo effect is not in fact ignored and the current promo process is probably too lax?

Sorry, just an old civiilian plonker being provocative again... :suspect:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Of course the trouble with a "natural break point" is that it does exactly what it says on the tin. It is designed to weed out those who don't want to commit. Thats what its for....to get rid of the top level of mid seniority guys so that there isn't a surplus all wanting promotion. If nobody went at the break point there would be chaos.

Vecvec, i couldn't agree more, under normal circumstances....but the steady-state after all of your non-commitals have left should still leave you with:

a. Enough experienced operators to do the job whilst maintaining some level of knowledge/experience.

b. Enough ladder-climbers(or enhanced pension seekers:O ) to fill the SO2 posts.

You need some degree of both. My point is that, at the moment, i'm not convinced that we have either!

[Mightycrewseven]

So what are those of us who spend up to 6 months a year away supposed to do? We certainly won't get "consistently supportive home assessments" since there simply isn't time to get anything constructive done at home, and I'd suggest that anyone who claim's otherwise is actually reliant on an excellent 2ic of whatever secondary duty it is that they claim to be doing.
As for genuine competition, surely this is a military service whose primary purpose is to fight wars? I'd have hoped that experience of those things would lend more wieght to promotion prospects than merely being a decider between two otherwise "consistently supportive home assessments."
PTT....oh dear, oh dear.
I am probably on the most deployed Sqn in the RAF. I have spent 7 months on various OOAs this year and am scheduled for 8 months in 2007. However, like you, I still have 4/5 months back at base to take on a suitable high profile duty. Yes, I know we spend that time preparing for our next OOAs, CCS/IDT/IRT/Acclimatisation Trg etc etc, but this does not take up every hour of every working day.
You are totally correct in that we shouldn't have to do this to get promoted but the fact is, with more and more of us having the 'warfighting' tick, this isn't enough to be competative. You will have to face up to the fact that there are many of us that are deployed AND do more and more duties back at base, in order to compete for the few promotion places that are available. This includes early completion of CST.
Yes, this means we have no time for a 'life' but, like i've already flogged to death, there are tenough personnel out there that are willing to sacrifice this for a chance of promotion.
It's tough but the bottom line is; if you want promotion, you have to compete.
M7 sends
ps I have carefully selected my Secondary duty, in which there is a very good 2ic who gets the recognition she deserves!

[Vage Rot]

As an ex-desk officer responsible for pre-boarding I can say that OOA certainly does lend weight but only if the home assessments are consistently supportive.


Home assessments?? Where's home? Most of us spend more time abroad than in the UK!


Board officers aren't the idiots you might think, they smell a rat when a guy can't be bothered to get out of his pit at home but is an OOA hero when away.


God forbid that some personnel may have that warfighting character that comes good when it matters if there are paperclips to be be counted at home. But then, when the proverbial hits the fan, I'd much rather have in charge some bluntie who can run a ladies tea party than a solid chap who knows what fighting is about,:=

[siddar]

Outsiders view here but I would think you would take all those who have deployed and screen that list for those you view as capable of being promoted. Some will just not be cut out for promotion some will need more time to be ready. But you take as many of those that have deployed that are ready first.

After that you screen those that havent deployed and take the best of those to fill out rest that you need.

People that have deployed have earned that right to be considerd first what is point of military asking society to show respect towards vetrans if military itself doesnt.