Private Jet fighters

[world]

Where can you get jet fighter rating without joining the military?
How much does it cost? Is it legal to fly jet fighters? What kind of medical certificate do you need?

[NigelOnDraft]

If you are willing to adapt the true meaning of "fighter", then a good place to start would be Swords Aviation (http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk) (2 x Jet Provost at North Weald)

[Oxeagle]

As NigelOnDraft mentioned, the Jet Provost is a good starting point. Similar to this is an Aero L-29 Delfin jet trainer, costing around £50-80,000 but I expect the running costs on this (or any other fast jet) would be truly horrendous. Next step up would be an Aero L-39 Albatross advanced trainer/light ground attack aircraft costing around £300,000 for a decent model. There are also the classic Vampire and Venom fighters, and the Folland Gnat of which I believe there is one for sale at the moment. Finally, I believe that one of the largest fighters you can fly in the UK is a Hunter. Talk to Delta Jets at Kemble, they operate Hunters, Gnats (I think) and Jet Provosts.

Ox

[Speed Twelve]

World

Don't know what licence or experience you have, but yes it is possible to fly ex-mil jets even on a PPL.

If you are going to hire someone else's or get involved in a syndicate there will be minimum experience requirements for insurance purposes. In any case you'll need to do a conversion and then have the type entered specifically on your licence. Medical-wise, Class 2 would suffice.

In the UK at least ops tend to be limited to Day VFR only.

JP/L29 as mentioned probably your best bet to begin with. The difference in performance/fuel burn between the Mk3 and Mk4/5 JP is marked. Even a JP will go through fuel at a horrendous rate at low-level. Regardless of what you end-up flying, compared to light piston-engined aircraft you're practically on a fuel-emergency in a mil jet as soon as you take-off! Flying discipline needs to be high, you'll always need to fly with a diversion, even though VFR.

Hunters, Gnats are considerably more complex, and being swept-wing, much more likely to kill you if you have a bad day. Lots of systems to learn, pretty complicated emergency drills, Gnat in particular.

Finally, I wouldn't personally fly an ex-mil jet without a live ejection seat. Some in the UK have had the seats disarmed which severely limits your options should the donkey quit. Knowing when to make the decision to jump-out explosively is also handy, it has caught-out a few pilots from non-military backgrounds over the years...

[world]

Thanx a lot for the replies!

[stickandrudderman]

How come nobody has asked World the million dollar question?
Are you a terrorist?:}

[NigelOnDraft]

Ex mil aircraft fly on a Permit to Fly basis. Therefore they cannot fly for Hire and Reward, so you cannot hire one, and you cannot be instructed in one unless you own some or all of it.Sort of true, but not quite ;)

Depending on the aircraft's owners wishes / agreement, you can fly their aircraft and pay the "costs" - under the terms of AIC60(W128)/2006 - without buying a share.

You never strictly get instructed on the aircraft, since as stated they are permit to fly. I am a JP "instructor", yet have no instructor rating... We essentially do a "conversion".... although with the 4 colour board briefs, soprtie profiles and write ups you would be hard pressed to not see it as "instruction" ;)

As above, Swords (link above) offer the ability to be instructed up to (but not including) solo without being an owner. You do need to get the relevant "training exemption" from the CAA in order to log the hours... (and despite all the above, then as P U/T !)

[soay]

How come nobody has asked World the million dollar question?
Are you a terrorist?:}
That was a conversation stopper! :ooh:

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Depending on the aircraft's owners wishes / agreement, you can fly their aircraft and pay the "costs" - under the terms of AIC60(W128)/2006 - without buying a share.

I'm not sure that this is strictly true. Yes there is a way to get exempted from the "No hire & reward" rule for a Permit aircraft in order to train on it, but I think you'll find that you have to have a very good reason for the CAA to grant an exemption i.e either having bought an aircraft and then require training on it by a third party or about to buy a share in said aircraft. In the last case, I am reliably informed that the CAA grants a 'one flight only' exemption. Guess how I know?

A good example would be if you were fortunate enough to be able to buy a single seat Mk9 Spitfire and had no previous Spitfire time, you could then buy time in a 2 seat Spitfire trainer to get current on type etc etc.

[JP1]

Nigel,

How much would it realistically cost to take a low hour PPL holder to solo in the JP.

I'm only a third of my way through my PPL training, but have thought about pursing some training in a JP when I have the licence. But flying regularly in a JP would be cost prohibitive, unless I win the lottery!

Thanks
JP

[NigelOnDraft]

I'm not sure that this is strictly true. Yes there is a way to get exempted from the "No hire & reward" rule for a Permit aircraft in order to train on it, but I think you'll find that you have to have a very good reason for the CAA to grant an exemption i.e either having bought an aircraft and then require training on it by a third party or about to buy a share in said aircraft. In the last case, I am reliably informed that the CAA grants a 'one flight only' exemption. Guess how I know?And I can reverse it, and say "Guess how I know". I "instruct" people on the JP who are not owners - we do it under the AIC I mentioned above. The owners set a limitation that they are not to fly solo wihtout buying a share - but the CAA / AIC set no such restriction.
How much would it realistically cost to take a low hour PPL holder to solo in the JP.See Swords Aviation (http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk) link, which details costs both as an owner, and under the AIC. I believe the insurance requires a total of 125hours+ prior solo... As a wild guess, for an able PPL, who is willing to study, work on 5-10 hours to solo. However, the membership / CAA CAP 632 for Mil Aircraft is not really designed around "getting solo", but completing a course to a Full Exemption which allows you to fly Pax. Getting solo would only be ~half, or even less, of the syllabus...

[neilcharlton]

Have a look at this thread as well should give you some more info
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212347

I'm looking to maybe go down the same route when i get my PPL .
Budget on 290 / 300 an hr in the mk3 JP and 400 ish in the mk 5

Say you need 10 - 15 hrs to complete the course your looking on £4000 for the converstion .

If you always fly with a friend and split the cost its £150 an hour after you pass the course.

Most flights i've been told last about 45 min so your probably looking at £125 an hr each .

Not bad when you can blast around the country side at 400mph.

[xraf]

........If you always fly with a friend and split the cost its £150 an hour after you pass the course.

Most flights i've been told last about 45 min so your probably looking at £125 an hr each .

I'm sorry I just couldn't walk past this one.

So you're saying although its £150 an hour if you only do 45mins its £125 an hour!!:p

Regards
Xraf:ok:

[wbryce]

Have a look at this thread as well should give you some more info
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212347

I'm looking to maybe go down the same route when i get my PPL .
Budget on 290 / 300 an hr in the mk3 JP and 400 ish in the mk 5

Say you need 10 - 15 hrs to complete the course your looking on £4000 for the converstion .


From the swords aviation link provided by NOD, then they quote £800 per hour (45mins airborne), or if you become a share owner then the costs are £4000 for 5%, £200 standing order every month and a £100 hourly dry rate (with fuel costs this will become roughly £400-£500ph).

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Nigel,

Check your PMs:E

[NigelOnDraft]

'C'D - PM replied to ;)
Others quoting rates. Be sure you are recognising which are "dry" and which are "wet" - all "dry" except the £800 initial flight...

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Say you need 10 - 15 hrs to complete the course your looking on £4000 for the converstion .

If you always fly with a friend and split the cost its £150 an hour after you pass the course.

Most flights i've been told last about 45 min so your probably looking at £125 an hr each .

Not bad when you can blast around the country side at 400mph.

What are you basing the 10-15 hours on?? That cannot possibly give someone who has just got their PPL enough experience to fly a jet (albeit a cr@p one). Surely, you cannot just buy yourself a 'fast jet rating' after 15 hours.

Please tell me that I don't have to share the sky with these people? Most people have a good 20 odd lessons to learn to drive a car let alone a a 'jet'.

I would like to see what is covered (or more imprtantly omitted) in this 15 hour course that allows weekend warriors to don their e-bay flying suits and speed jeans and waterski several miles behind a (slow) fast jet:}

[stickandrudderman]

Hmmmmmmmm, no answer.....

[172driver]

Not that it made a lot of practical sense, but could you fly one of these birds around Europe on a JAR PPL ??

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

cost of flying these aircraft is about to jump.

at some point next year, minimum levels of excise duty will be imposed on kerosene when used for propulsion. The level specified in the relevant EU directive is €302 per 1000 litres - i.e. about 20p a litre.

HMRC however, will probably impose the same level as diesel.

Ouch

:{

[18greens]

at some point next year, minimum levels of excise duty will be imposed on kerosene when used for propulsion. :{

Will that apply to commercial aviation as well? That will cause a big market upset. How come we haven't heard any bleating from the airlines?

[neilcharlton]

theres a discussion doc on the AOPA website . they are asking for everyone to write to their MP's about it .