Alcohol and Pilots

[Heliport]

I know most posters here tend not to read the other forums, but you might find this thread in Rumours & News worth reading:


>>> LINK (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256861)

[verticalhold]

T'is a slur. We do read the other forums! Feel sorry for the guy. I can't help feeling we've probably all known someone with a problem. Its bad when it spills over into the workplace, when that workplace is a cockpit god help us. the media love to show us up when they can.

[Heliport]

It wasn't meant as a slur - far from it.

[unstable load]

I was gobsmacked by the level of absolute vitriol from some of the guys there. One of them even had the gall to admit that he had been over the limit, but still the poor bloke who was the subject of the thread was getting lined up for execution.
BLESSED ARE THE SELF RIGHTEOUS!!
Kudos to the two guys who posted their experiences!!!
An eye opener for me.

UL.

[George Semel]

I was dumb enough to go and read that stuff, good grief, I would not want to be in any aircraft with them. Biggest mud slingers in general have the same problems if not worst. Nobody is perfect.

[asara]

I know I am generalising and probably stereotyping here, but I am sure that many of you may have experienced the following.

Why is it that so many of the younger and newer pilots need to impress us with their drinking abilities. So many of these aviators "need" to quench their thirst right from knock off time to late in the evening, by which time these people are well over the legal driving limit.

Why do they feel the need to brag about their next day's flying performance while they were "so hung over"?

Why do they feel the need to brag about who outdrank who?

Having questioned some of these aviators about their requirements and responsibility about drinking and flying, without fail I will receive the "I am not flying until 0800 so I am ok"

Do these aviators not understand the concept of the alcohol rule?

These aviators do not have the maturity to control their drinking and bragging habits, yet are allowed to control a complex piece of machinery.

Why is this culture allowed to continue, with many more experienced pilots laughing, thus encouraging, rather than attempting to curb these actions.

Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing.

[Heliport]

Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing.
Why?

Is there a problem in Australia of aircraft crashing because pilots were under the influence of alcohol?

[asara]

Not sure if that was a bona fide question or a sly remark.

Anyway, are you against it?

Surely the contents of the attached thread and maybe some personal encounters would suggest it is warranted.

Do we always need to be reactive, rather than proactive...

[Heliport]

Bona fide question.

[asara]

Thanks Heliport.

Is there an ATSB investigator that could enlighten us on whether drugs and/or alcohol are a contributing factor in any aviation accidents.

Regards

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

interesting reading all around.

Some weired pilots around - especial fixed wingers......

I had my alcohol-experience during RN flight training. Land away - planed with two nights - so I drank a lot on the first...
Next morning I heard "Come on boy, we need to fly back."
I said, I'm hungover but my my Instructor said - he's in charge and he isn't.
And he showed me how bad it is to fly hangover - I had to fly, part of it in IMC the bastard!
But it thought me a lesson - no drink and fly.
We're professionals - and alcohol could be drunk - but not if you have to fly.
Nothing against one or two eveneing beers or one or two redwine (glass, not bottle) if you have a good nights sleep before the next job - but party until 6 to go flying at 8 - is not only forbidden, it's unprofessional, too.

Greetings
"Flying Bull"

[B Sousa]

You may find this amazing, but more Helicopter accidents are caused by Sober Pilots than Drunks.
Northwest Airlines has a proven example of Pilots over the limit who skillfully made a few Instrument approaches only to be "outed" because of AIA (Alcohol Induced Attitude).

Back to the good old days..........No Drinking within 50' of the Aircraft.

[ATN]

... and no smoking 8 hours before flying.

ATN

[Flying Lawyer]

asara


I don't feel strongly about it, but I'm against random drug and alcohol testing. I'd take a different view if I thought there was a need to do so in the interests of flight safety; I don't. (See below.)
Would you include all professions/jobs where a mistake might lead to death or serious injury of others? eg Surgeons, doctors, pharmacists? Train drivers, bus drivers? All public transport drivers?
Lawyers? Lives aren't literally at risk, but a mistake by a lawyer can have the effect of ruining someone's life.
Where would you draw the line?


Nothing I've read or heard suggests to me that random breath-testing of pilots is warranted. Of course I've heard stories, but I've seen no evidence that it is or ever has been a flight safety problem.
This topic has come up previously in threads relating to airline pilots. Those who claim there's a problem have been challenged to come up with examples of accidents where there is evidence that a pilot was under the influence of alcohol. From memory, they've come up with a couple of certains and a few possibles - from all the millions of miles flown every year since accident investigations began and records were kept.

Of course there are occasions when we should be proactive, but there should IMHO be some basis for fearing an accident might happen unless we take action to prevent it. I've seen no evidence that there is any basis for such a fear.


FL

[unstable load]

One of the bases where my company operates has a policy where EVERYONE gets to blow before they start work!

Extreme? The oil company seems to think not.
Forward thinking or Paranoid? I think the jury is out on that one.

I am not sure whether I would be happy with that being enforced on me, but having said that, I do see the thinking behind it.

[B Sousa]

"One of the bases where my company operates has a policy where EVERYONE gets to blow before they start work! "

You may wish to clarify this....You mean on a daily basis, first hire or just something to show your loyalty to the Boss....

[skadi]

You may find this amazing, but more Helicopter accidents are caused by Sober Pilots than Drunks.
Northwest Airlines has a proven example of Pilots over the limit who skillfully made a few Instrument approaches only to be "outed" because of AIA (Alcohol Induced Attitude).

Back to the good old days..........No Drinking within 50' of the Aircraft.

1. I hope, that there are much more sober H/C-Pilots in the air than drunk ones..., so the statistic you mentioned is wrong!!
2. Did the Pilot made the approaches or the Autopilot????:E

skadi

[212man]

Maybe this is the datum?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3UDCoQnXjA

Made me chuckle, anyway:)

[asara]

Nice one 212man :D :D

[asara]

G'day Flying Lawyer,

I was a bit concerned at your comment "Of course I've heard stories, but I've seen no evidence that it is or ever has been a flight safety problem", so I checked the ATSB (Australia) website and found a report of which the following is an extract

Drug and alcohol use in pilots can have a detrimental impact on aviation safety. Important cognitive and psychomotor functions necessary for safe operation of an aircraft can be significantly impaired by drugs and alcohol. The purpose of this study was to determine the prevalence and nature of drug and alcohol-related accidents and incidents in Australian civil aviation. A search of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau’s accident and incident database was conducted for all occurrences in which drugs or alcohol were recorded between 1 January 1975 and 31 March 2006. There were 36 drug and alcohol-related events (31 accidents and five incidents). The majority of these occurrences were related to alcohol (22 occurrences). The drugs identified included prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications and illegal drugs (including heroin and cannabis). Drug and alcohol events accounted for only 0.02 per cent of all the occurrences listed on the Australian Transport Safety Bureau’s database. Drug and alcohol-related accidents accounted for 0.4 per cent of all accidents. Furthermore, 89 per cent of drug and alcohol occurrences resulted in an accident, with the proportion of these 32 occurrences that resulted in an accident quite high, at 86.5 per cent. Fatal accidents accounted for 67 per cent of all drug and alcohol occurrences. The results of this study show that the prevalence of drug and alcohol-related accidents and incidents in Australian civil aviation is very low, but that the related accident and fatality rates are high. The planned introduction of a mandatory drug and alcohol testing program into the Australian civil aviation industry will provide a more prescriptive approach to the issue of drug and alcohol use in pilots. Education and training remain important elements of an overall approach to reducing the significant impact of drug and alcohol use on flight safety.
(http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2006/b20060169_001.aspx)



I must say that I was surprised to read that drug and alcohol related accidents accounted for only 0.4% of accidents, and it is a figure I find hard to believe.

Surely this cannot be correct and actually question their methodology. As far as I am aware (please correct if I am wrong) there is no requirement for Blood Alcohol testing after an accident (in Australia), and if there is I suggest that it either may not be routinely performed or performed at a time where the persons Blood Alcohol level no longer becomes a factor.

With so many Alcohol related road accidents and other acts of stupidity it is difficult to believe that alcohol cannot be a problem in the aviation industry.

Regards

[Flying Lawyer]

G'day asara

Let's see where we've got so far -

You said: "Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing."
You were concerned at (doubted the accuracy of) my response: ".......... I've seen no evidence that it is or ever has been a flight safety problem."
So, you checked the ATSB website and found a study, the specific purpose of which was to determine the prevalence and nature of drug and alcohol-related accidents and incidents in Australian civil aviation.
The study found that, in just over 31 years:
there were only 22 alcohol-related incidents
drug (incl prescription drugs and over-the-counter medications ) and alcohol events accounted for only 0.02 per cent of all the occurrences listed on the ATSB's database, and for only 0.4 per cent of all accidents.
Because the evidence doesn't support (or, more accurately, demolishes) your preconceived notion (hunch?), you:

assume it cannot be correct
question the study's methodology.
suggest that either blood/alchol tests may not be routinely performed following an accident or, if they are, they are performed when the pilots' blood/alchol level "no longer becomes a factor." (Please correct me if I'm wrong but, I take it the last point means you're assuming it would have been, at least in some instances, if the test had been performed earlier. ie You're trying to find some reason for your hunch being correct and the study's findings flawed.)
I don't know the answer to your question about whether there is a requirement for blood/alcohol testing after an accident in Australia. In most parts of the world, it's routinely measured as a matter of course from pilots killed in fatal accidents. I assume that happens in Australia, but I don't know.

We also need to bear in mind:

that not all accidents/incidents are a result of pilot error. (The study doesn't appear to have differentiated.)
that, even if alcohol is found in a pilot's system following a 'pilot error' accident/incident, it does not necessarily follow that alcohol either caused or contributed to the error.So far, we've only considered percentages relating to accidents/incidents. To get a true perspective, we'd also need to know the percentage of flights flown by Australian pilots every year without any accident or incident. I don't know the figure - perhaps you can find it - but I think we can safely say millions of miles/hours are flown each year without either accident or incident.
ie 22 alcohol-related incidents in how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of flights in the 31 years?


With so many Alcohol related road accidents and other acts of stupidity I refuse to believe that alcohol cannot be a problem in the aviation industry.

Which? Road accidents caused or contributed to by a driver's ability being impaired by alcohol? Or other acts of driver stupidity generally?
If you think the degree of care and responsibility exhibited by professional pilots embarking upon a flight is no better than the degree of care and responsibility exhibited by drivers before driving, I can only assume you either don't know many professional pilots or, if you do, you move in very odd circles.You "refuse to believe that alcohol cannot be a problem in the aviation industry." :confused:

You refuse to believe?
There's not much point in a discussion if you aren't prepared to approach it with an open mind, free of preconceived notions.

Even assuming for the purpose of discussion that more pilots have flown with alcohol in their systems over that 31 year period than have been detected:
Where is the evidence that they are crashing in consequence?
Or causing incidents falling short of an accident?
ie Where is your evidence that alcohol is a flight safety problem in the aviation industry?

I based my assertion on a knowledge of the stats, and two decades dealing professionally with aviation accidents/incidents.
Just out of interest, what's your basis for your assertion, and your wish to see "Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing."?


FL


BTW, I referred to professional pilots because you referred to the aviation industry. My comments apply equally to private pilots.

[moosp]

Thank you FL for bringing the subject back to rational and empirically based discussion rather than the emotive stuff that is so often seen when the words, “Pilot” and, “Alcohol” appear in the same sentence.

Asara has missed his vocation and would be better employed by a UK tabloid or a German picture weekly. He has a tenuous grasp of the situation.

There is massive evidence that as a cause of aircraft accidents, flown by professional pilots operating under an AOC or FAA regulatory Part, alcohol consumption is so inconsequential as to be statistically irrelevant.

The resources that are already put into alcohol abuse of pilots would save more lives if it was redirected into fatigue issues, maintenance oversight and operational discipline.

There is no problem about professional pilots and alcohol from a flight safety point of view. In a multi crew environment it is detected by the other crew. The self policing works. However from a socially divisive, media driven aspect, it is becoming a nuisance.

I am appalled that even pilots themselves suggest that random testing should be brought into aviation. Do you honestly believe that your profession is so degraded that you need a jobsworth to tell you if you are competent?

[soggyboxers]

FL,

Just to illustrate your point, in the offshore helicopter industry in Africa, there is a routine, random drug and alchohol testing policy in effect. This is at the insistence of some client oil companies. Pilots can refuse to agree to be tested, but if they do, they have to leave! The usual policy is that all pilots are tested a minimum of once and a maximum of twice annually. The doctor usually just arrives in the crewroom as crews arrive in the morning and asks the pilots whose names are on his list to go with him for their D&A tests. I don't think anybody has ever failed one so far, which only goes to show that there's probably not a problem. It may, of course, show that the fact that where such a policy is in place, people are less likely to transgress :E

[Stan Switek]

I have no problem working for an employer who wants me to drug test. "Disease" or not, I have no sympathy for those who abuse alcohol & use illegal drugs.

[SayItIsntSo]

I am in the corner of those who believe that, statistically, there isn’t an alcohol problem within the professional pilot fraternity. I have seen with my own eyes evidence that sexual frustration (and its associated mental state) may be a greater cause for concern. Anyone want to start random testing for that?

However, I wonder how many professional pilots have ‘selective memory’ when completing the section of the medical examination form that asks how many units of alcohol they consume per week.

[topendtorque]

Random drug testing, no I’m not a fan of it either, just another tax. I remember the episode of Capt Lyle’s, and at the time we all thought poor bastard, he’s a gonna. Indeed a very pleasant surprise to hear of his recovery and selfless enthusiasm in helping his fellow man. Mrs Lyle must rate a mention as a very special person too, spot on.

In our outfit dope was zero tolerance, however alcohol was viewed more tolerantly, imbibed way too much in many cases. I’ve no doubt the bottle to throttle linkage was less than nominal, at times; however touch wood never with a problem.
One sad event we had was a young bloke who was exceptional as a driver but was a casual user of dope. He had been very careful and kept it away from his work, however one day he sets off on a long x country, a-smoking-on-the-way. He misses his one waypoint in three hours, gets lost, lands after dark facing towards lights 9 K’s distant and walks. It’s thick, medium level brush, he gets lost and four days later, in delirium and on the verge of perishing we find him. Needless to say EVERYONE knew about it so how we handled it was being VERY closely watched.

The boss and I shared the commercial view that we should try to keep him. The CP was not happy about it, anyrate as soon as the kid gets home he says to me, “Am I sacked?”
I says, ‘No, just go rest up a few days, talk to your parents (who of course were beside themselves by now) and settle yourself down a bit.’

When things were calm I gave him 24 hours to respond to a simple question, which was, ‘Can you give us a guarantee that you won’t do it again?’ I figured and was thinking of the arguments to use that we would somehow muscle this through with the authority if, as I hoped, he would say yes. Such was not to be.

Now after reading Lyles report I reckon we may have handled it better rather than losing a top young bloke to a milk delivery truck. Live and Learn!

FL asked if after accident blood testing was done in OZ and I don’t know that it is, but I am quite sure that a deceased pilot will be tested. I know of one case many years ago where an action was commenced by a passengers widow some years after the accident (about five I think). (It was a fw lightie in Tasmania) The pilots’ body was exhumed and in a cutting edge bit of work the pilot was positively tested for alcohol.

However as heliport has asked about our Aussie sobriety I’ll go back to some of our genetic pool and tend the following (anecdotal) evidence for consideration. It’s a bit of history from some archives of my old man’s. I’ve copied a couple of passages from the squadron (tongue in cheek) diary which was kept for posterity beside the official ones. Note the punctuation.
The event is 77 sqdn RAAF moving from Darwin to Milne Bay, via leave in Sydney, ground party have already departed leaving the flying types behind.

31/01/1943
‘So after having seriously depleted security guards grog supply, and with they, our hosts, becoming more and more intolerant of us, it was an extremely happy day for all concerned when 19 kittyhawks and one Douglas transport took the air on the morning of the 31st. and headed south for Daly Waters; leaving 457 squadron of spitfires to hold the fort; as far as Livingstone field was concerned anyway. After a fast and uneventful run to Daly pilots were refreshed with a couple of icy cold brews, (Cracking show!) very thoughtfully provided by the mess there, and after a splendid lunch the squadron departed, with Hudson escort, for Cloncurry. After quite a tedious journey provided by “K” type Dingy Cloncurry hove in sight.’ ---

Not much grog in the Curry apparently, seems it was a poor show!

‘An early start was made for Charleville next morn -- we arrived safely, tho’ it is true
That many had some anxious moments with the tricky wind gradients on that ‘drome’ and Tom Watson taxied in with flaps down, thus laying himself open to a demand of “drinks all round.”
Naturally no time was wasted in heading toward the nearest Pub where an ample supply of beer seemed available, so all and sundry proceeded to get “stuck into it”, and it is not to be wondered at that when they departed from Charleville some three hours later, these same pilots appeared to be in an exceedingly happy frame of mind. ---
That night Amberley received quite a good doing over in one way and another.
Feb 2nd.
That evening the C.O. spilled 2 stupendous items of news. –
Firstly seven members of the squadron had been promoted to the exalted rank of Flight Leuitenant. The lucky ones – (Jim Joe Bill etc, etc) - Fearfully Good Show Chaps!! Particularly noteworthy was the way these types kept our glasses filled during the session that followed.’

The second item was - three weeks leave.
Their trip to Sydney had a couple of gems,

‘A couple of very dapper Dutchmen hove out of the murk and took charge of the kite, and we were soon taxying at no mean speed across the ‘drome’. For those that had not already had their nerves shattered by our “ride of death” provided by the Amberley Transport Section the take-off that followed supplied the finishing touches. No such pansy business as running up or testing magnetos for these boys and three point takeoffs seem to be their speciality. So with a couple of too cold “cyclones” struggling manfully we staggered off the deck, with the cabin floor at such an angle as to make us wonder whether Pythagoras knew what he was about. Maybe these blokes had never heard of Angle of Attack, but we had 500 ft over the hangars, which is pretty good going for a “Lodestar.”

As for the types in Sydney, their life held but one purpose, that being to consume the greatest quantity of grog possible in the shortest possible time. In this regard they were extremely successful, the Longbar of the ‘Australia’ providing an ideal rendezvous. We were firmly established at this self-same spot on the morning of the 4th. Feb; when the C.O. burst in, and after making his way to the bar, and smartly downing a couple of ales, he revealed to us the very latest Good Guts. The news was so surprising that several of the lads very nearly spilt their brews~ Bad show! Anyway we learned that we had been allotted 24 brand new P40K’s, so we made a further spirited attack on the “Australia’s” grog supply, before removing our various semi intoxicated persons towards “Silvers”, in search of a spot of nourishment.’

And in such vein it continues.

My mum, wistfully said a few years ago that many of their number were unable to kick the ‘Drinking Jag’ after the war, I don’t know whether so much in sorrow for them or more for my benefit ~ at the time. I don’t say all Aussies and esp. the air force of today is like this but I am not too ashamed to admit that I’ve taken the odd cold shower trim change and am glad to have come out of it. There you go. It’s the act of addiction that was the problem for me, beer, caffeine or tobacco was only the vehicle. For others of course it can be a simple craving from a body chemical imbalance, if only the right supplemental jag could be found?
Cheers TET.