Land owner's permission? [Archive]

paco

10th Dec 2006, 07:27

I've posted this before, but I can't remember the thread:

In UK, the owner of a piece of land does not need special permission to use it as a Helicopter Landing Site provided it is not in a congested area (ANO), and it is only for private or business use, that of any employees, or people specifically visiting for social or business purposes (non ANO). No structure must be erected in connection with its use for helicopters, aside from temporary ones (such as windsocks), otherwise the Planning Permission (Zoning) people will become interested - there's no need to notify them of anything unless the land is to be used as a helipad on more than 28 days in any year. In fact, current planning regulations allow a helicopter to be used for personal, business and leisure uses "as many people use a private car" from the owner's dwelling house without limitation, making it exempt from planning control, provided the use is incidental, or ancillary to, the principal use of the land.

If you rent any house or land, you are usually the "landowner" for this purpose for the duration of your rental, so permission from the real landowner may not be required, but you would naturally need to check any leases or covenants that you may have signed that may negate this.

Phil

Heliport

10th Dec 2006, 09:18

Colonal Mustardcue the Flying Lawyer

There was a thread a while back where IIRC Flying Lawyer stated that he could not find anywhere the legal basis for the requirement to obtain landowner's permission before landing on his or her property.

JimBall

10th Dec 2006, 10:07

Rattle: With respect to the land owner's permission rule for landing, if a friend rents his house, do we need to speak to the Landlord to get permission from him before we can land?

Could you supply the rule to which you refer ? It's not in any of my docs.

MSP Aviation

10th Dec 2006, 15:07

here's my thinking:

in regards to whether or not the landowner's permission rule exists, i would assume that it's trespassing to land on one's property without permission, just like driving down a private road would be.

but, since a rentee/leasee can invite you into the house (give you permission to be on the property), they can give you permission to land on the property that they are renting, as long as their contract with the owner does not prohibit that.

Heliport

10th Dec 2006, 15:13

just like driving down a private road would be.
Trespassing?
Like walking up the private path to someone's front door without prior permission? :confused:

Oogle

10th Dec 2006, 16:54

Here's a hint:

Land OWNER.

:}

HillerBee

10th Dec 2006, 17:04

It differs from Country to Country. So which country are we talking about?

UK. No permission needed
USA. Permission needed

France. Written permission needed
Austria. Written permission needed
Germany. Written permission needed
The Netherlands. Written permission needed

Oogle

10th Dec 2006, 17:10

Hiller Bee
Looks like it only differs in the UK! :confused:

MSP Aviation

10th Dec 2006, 20:36

Trespassing?
Like walking up the private path to someone's front door without prior permission? :confused:

well, it's tricky. walking to the front door is one thing, as you're going to speak to the land owner.

but, say you walked on the private path, made a right, and walked into their backyard when they weren't home. that's trespassing. just like driving down a private road is, if they don't want you there. being on someone's property without their permission (if they don't want you there) is trespassing, and i can't imagine why landing an aircraft on it would be any different.

Heliport

10th Dec 2006, 22:27

You've brought in another factor - "if they don't want you there".

rattle

10th Dec 2006, 22:31

Here's a hint:
Land OWNER.
:}
There had to be one...
But is seems from the general replies, it is legal in the UK. Thank you all.

Creaser

10th Dec 2006, 22:42

well, it's tricky. walking to the front door is one thing, as you're going to speak to the land owner.

but, say you walked on the private path, made a right, and walked into their backyard when they weren't home. that's trespassing. .....

My laymans understanding is that if there is no gate or fence to prevent you entering a property it is not trespassing.
However it becomes trespassing if you are asked to leave and you do not.

So perhaps landing without permission on a country estate that is completely walled with locked gates would get a less favourable result in court than landing without permission on a property without fences or with open gates.

Creaser

paco

11th Dec 2006, 01:18

There is an implied permission in the UK for people to walk on property, because, after all, you want your letters and newspapers delivered, etc. However, you can specifically cancel that permission, such as the TV licence guys.

Bearing in mind that the "man on the Capham Omnibus" is used as a yardstick in English (not Scottish) law, meaning that judgements are applied according to what a reasonable person would think, I would suggest that landing a helicopter (unless in an emergency) on someone's property would be difficult to justify against walking up the garden path. The same would apply to opening a door having walked up said path.

Phil

thecontroller

11th Dec 2006, 08:17

i seem to remember reading somewhere that in the UK "trespassing" is not illegal, and all these "tresspassers will be prosecuted" signs were not enforcable by any law

any lawyers out there?

JimBall

11th Dec 2006, 09:24

There is no law of trespass in the UK. And landOWNERS are actually freehold owners who have the right to fence a piece of land and work that land. They do not own the land - they own what they put on the land. For proof of this, look at the hoops and licences that landowners go through to get extraction rights.

Ultimately the only land owner is the Crown. But if you enter the physical property that someone owns on a piece of land, without their permission, then you have committed an offence.

Very good book on the subject available through Amazon "Who Owns Britain ?".

There is an 18th century law which can be applied : if the landowner asks you 3 times to leave the land and you don't, they are able to call the police and ask for your removal. If you still failed to leave you would be arrested for any number of offences, but not trespass.

And there's nothing to stop the landowner/freehold owner pursuing you for damage to their property - crops, fences, animals etc - if they have the evidence that you caused such damage.

"An Englishman's home is his castle" is about as truthful as "the camera never lies" - of course entering his actual castle without his permission is an offence. But landing on one of his paddocks isn't.

Exo.

11th Dec 2006, 10:32

Whatever happened to the old rule that "An English[/wo]man's home is his[/her] castle"?

And before someone wisecracks, I believe that incorporates the land as well as the house...

Agaricus bisporus

11th Dec 2006, 11:09

Jim Ball, I beg to differ. trespass is a common law and civil offense, it is not arrestable, and thbe police most certainly won't come to arrest anyone no matter how many times you've asked them to leave - they cant, civil offences are not arrestable. You, as the landowner (tenant has same right) may use as much reasonable force as is necessary to evict a trespasser. If they have caused damage you may seek redress in the civil court, but not otherwise.

Clearly if you land in someones field without permission they have the right to evict you, which could make your return to the helo problematic...

Glider pilots sometimes have problems with bolshie farmers damanding high fees to allow access to recover gliders after field landings.

Clearly you do need landowners permission if you are to avoid costly ransom demands to get your machine back.

JimBall

11th Dec 2006, 12:18

AB: beg as much as you like, there's no escaping the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994! They can more than feel your collar......

Extract: Power to remove trespassers on land.

61.—(1) If the senior police officer present at the scene reasonably believes that two or more persons are trespassing on land and are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave and —

(a) that any of those persons has caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards the occupier, a member of his family or an employee or agent of his,
or
(b) that those persons have between them six or more vehicles on the land, he may direct those persons, or any of them, to leave the land and to remove any vehicles or other property they have with them on the land.

(2) Where the persons in question are reasonably believed by the senior police officer to be persons who were not originally trespassers but have become trespassers on the land, the officer must reasonably believe that the other conditions specified in subsection (1) are satisfied after those persons became trespassers before he can exercise the power conferred by that subsection.

(3) A direction under subsection (1) above, if not communicated to the persons referred to in subsection (1) by the police officer giving the direction, may be communicated to them by any constable at the scene.

(4) If a person knowing that a direction under subsection (1) above has been given which applies to him —

(a) fails to leave the land as soon as reasonably practicable, or

(b) having left again enters the land as a trespasser within the period of three months beginning with the day on which the direction was given,he commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale, or both.

(5) A constable in uniform who reasonably suspects that a person is committing an offence under this section may arrest him without a warrant.

thecontroller

11th Dec 2006, 12:20

"2 or more persons"

sounds like you're OK if you're solo then!

Flying Lawyer

11th Dec 2006, 12:47

JimBall is correct.

In England & Wales, a mere trespass is not a criminal offence.
The "Trespassers will be prosecuted" signs with which anyone who lives or has lived in the countryside will be familiar are meaningless - but probably effective because most people don't know they are meaningless.

Some here may be old enough to remember the 1982 incident when an intruder got into Buckingham Palace during the night and sat on the Queen's bed chatting to her. He wasn't prosecuted - he hadn't committed any offence.

The law started changing in 1994 to deal with certain specific problems but, even it's current form, simply going onto someone else's property is not a criminal offence.

Trespass is a tort, and the victim of a trespass is entitled to sue for damages to compensate him for any loss/damage he has suffered and, where appropriate, an injunction will be granted to prevent trespass continuing.

FL

MK10

11th Dec 2006, 14:47

my 2p worth, there never was a law of tresspass in scotland- so the new right to roam law means nothing- but , has given certain groups the confidence to roam wherever whenever. if they walk, or fly in ,does it make any difference? if you break the 500ft rule it might? if they disturb wildstock it may, if they endanger someone it will, but who,s going to enforce it?
PPR is a courtesy,good manners keep the peace kind of bag.
mk10

Hover Bovver

11th Dec 2006, 15:02

So if someone decides to land in my field, and rolls over because it is marsh, I guess it will be my fault for not putting up a sign saying so!

If someone "roams " on your land and hurts themself in the process whos fault is it?

JimBall

11th Dec 2006, 17:15

If someone "roams " on your land and hurts themself in the process whos fault is it?

FL will enjoy this one!

We once tried to protect ourselves from scrotes by erecting a fence with a razor wire top. Two things come into play: (1) the height of the fence - the razor wire must not be within reach of someone standing next to the fence (2) the signs - there must be regular signs around the fence warning of the dangers. Needless to say, we abandoned the project.

To answer your question, the "fault" will be determined by the judge on the day. If you can prove that you took all reasonable precautions (undefined) to make sure that your land was safe, then you would not be at fault. Disclaimer notices around the place would help at all normal entrances and a marked path (using fence arrows) would indicate the safe routes. If someone decides to go "freeform" that's their problem.

In some circumstances, it may be advisable to produce (God forbid) a Risk Assessment. Sign it, date it, have it co-signed by a Notary and keep it on file.It shows responsible custodianship.

And always remember: the drink you are about to consume is hot.

Welcome to the modern world.

paco

12th Dec 2006, 01:23

You mean like this?

http://www.electrocution.com/sharpedges.jpg

Phil

CromptonS

12th Dec 2006, 11:28

I remember asking my instructor about this, and he said that wether the law exists or not it can be surprising how many times you could have a temperature or pressure that you are not happy about and need to check. This will get you out of all or any trouble should you land in any. ( xcuse the pun )

havick

12th Dec 2006, 12:02

cromptonS, careful with that one. Serial offenders get caught out eventually. Plus remember the machine you are flying has a tail number/reg/company stickers (effectively flying bilboard).

*N.B. We've all done the cheeky landing to pick up the blonde with curves in the right place.

Sam Rutherford

16th May 2010, 07:51

When I was doing my flight training (a long time ago!), we were told 'land anywhere in the UK with the land-owners permission (and as a professional courtesy, inform Plod)'.

I have since been told that this is not (no longer) the case. You can land anywhere, and as long as you leave immediately when asked (and have not damaged anything or broken any other rules) - you are perfectly legal.

Would love to know if this is now the case (as it seems strange).

Safe flights, Sam.

toptobottom

16th May 2010, 08:18

Sam

Who told you that was no longer the case and where are you?

If you're in England, I think your source is getting confused between the CAA Act and the laws of Trespass. Even then however, you would not be immune from prosecution by simply leaving someone else's property when asked, even if you hadn't damaged anything. This is a huge and complex subject, but the bottom line is that you can't just land anywhere you feel like it (without the owner's permission) without also risking a claim being made against you, either by the CAA or the land owner, or both.

TTB

s1lverback

16th May 2010, 08:31

Always worth asking for permission. Doing so has meant that I now have a decent landing site near home that I can use anytime - but I always text or call the night before just to make sure; as nothing should be taken for granted.

Also, it avoids conflicts with other 'traffic' on the day.:ok:

Agaricus bisporus

16th May 2010, 11:51

Since we threw Common Law out with the bathwater last year (or rather allowed the Republic of Ireland to hold a referendum on the matter and do it for us...) I doubt anyone knows the current EU law on Trespass, but previously, although the land owner in theorey could bring a private case ("prosecution" for trespass is a tortology, it was not a statutary offence) he'd have to prove you'd caused damage - and probably financial loss to gain any favourable result, and crushing a bit of grass wouldn't cut the mustard. Win a trespass case for landing in your field? Dream on! In reality pure Trespass virtually never came to court in UK in any shape or form, and wins were even rarer.

But of course you must obtain permission first, and quite agree that even a regularly used site informing the landowner is only courteous.

But inform the Police? Why?
In all the years I flew into sites all over the country with several different companies I don't think we ever thought this necessary, what's it to do with them?

Also, nothing to stop you landing anywhere (safe) for safety reasons, technical, weather etc.

John R81

16th May 2010, 12:03

CAA would only get excited if your landing broke part of the Air Navigation Order. So landing on top of a multi-story car park would be right out for a single engined aircraft, for example.

Landing without permission and causing no damage - still difficult to see the cause of action for the landowner (I am a landowner, and occasionally have trouble with unauthorized camping).

Common sense says (other than in an emergency or for safety reasons) always seek landowner permission. That way we don't annoy too many people and risk the law being changed to "not off airfield" as in much of Europe.

Rambling - don't read on if you want to stay on topic:

Getting PPR does not always solve everything. Yesterday I had PPR to land at Dansefield House hotel (see Conference venue near London, meeting rooms, Hotel conference room (http://www.danesfieldhouse.co.uk/) ) between 1pm and 3pm for lunch. On approach from 1500 ft I could see a wedding party on the veranda, and in the grounds they were setting up archery and laser-clay rifles plus some other things. Having orbited I thought it would give them a chance to realise I was landing, as well as orientate myself. Wind from the North, I came in from the South but adjusted my track to avoid overflying a blue transit van.

On landing and shutting down, a chap came over to (a) thank me for not overflying the van which contained 12 birds of prey and (b) to ask if I would speak to him before starting / departing to avoid frightening the birds.

He was not informed of the helicopter arrival & I was not informed of a falconry display. Being nice people, we sorted things out.

And the lunch was absolutely fantastic!

John

SilsoeSid

16th May 2010, 17:32

But inform the Police? Why?
In all the years I flew into sites all over the country with several different companies I don't think we ever thought this necessary, what's it to do with them?

Wow, straight for the jugular from someone who clearly has a plod issue.

If you calmed down and thought about it for a while, when Jo Public calls the plod and says they have just seen a helicopter go down in a field just off the Axx, "it sounded funny as it descended and its all gone quiet now".
Would you;

a. Expect plod to call out all the emergency services immediately, or
b. Expect plod to confirm with the caller that the heli has actually crashed or is simply landing, as they are aware of a landing taking place there today.

Of course, if it has actually crashed, having the information from the pilot beforehand would enable despatch to the correct grid square happen more efficiently. Rather going to the field just off the Axx where Jo Public thinks they saw it all happen, but Jo isn't from around here so isn't quite sure of the actual location. Oh and now they aren't answering their phone.

You could call it courtesy, or just making things easier, people on side, etc etc. Or the local neighbourhood plod could be a heli-buff or simply helpful and give you some form of 'hls cover', keeping the local yoof away as you try to land in their 'footy pitch'. The reasons begin to become endless.

Memo to Agaricus bisporus...Plod is not all bad.

thecontroller

16th May 2010, 18:05

This was discussed a few years ago. Can't find the thread.

I seem to remember "Flying Lawyer" posted something along the lines of....

- there is no such law as "trespassing". All those "will be prosecuted signs" are nonsense

- you don't LEGALLY need the landowners persmission to land, but obviously it's a good idea to get it

- but... landowners (or anyone) can bring a civil case against you if you damage anything with your heli, or the downwash, scaring horses, ruining crops, chipping cars etc

ShyTorque

16th May 2010, 20:43

The CAA view appears to be that the landowner's permission must be obtained and that the local police must be informed.

At least, CAA permissions to land in a congested area that I have obtained (and I need these about three or four times a year) state both the above as a requirement of the permission. Regarding the police, I ring the local force control room and obtain an incident number.

thecontroller

16th May 2010, 21:41

found it

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/255592-land-owners-permission.html

and

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/236205-scene-set-incl-low-flying-rules-there-cultural-divide.html

Agaricus bisporus

17th May 2010, 00:10

Sid, - you have an unpleasant way of inventing personal "issues" where none were expressed, why do you need to do that? It sounds cheap. It is cheap.
You also seem to have a comprehension problem.

Several employers "did not feel the need to". How hard is that to understand? Clearly I did not make their policy.

But thanks for your patronising and unnecessary explanation anyway.
There's still no need to inform them - because its still not their concern, nor of any interest either I suspect. Do they really have the time to be regularly bothered with trivia like this? I doubt it very much.

Do we have to call the police before we fire a gun or put on a crash-helmet because "someone might think there is a robbery going on?" Or for any other legal activity for that matter? No, we do not.

If someone did report a suspected crash they'd be quizzed as to details, prior warning or not, and if there is any doubt the police are required to investigate further, so what have you gained? Absolutely nothing.
Sid, just because there may be specific times when you'd inform them (congested area, near busy public places etc) or the fire brigade or coastguard or even the local Bishop doesn't translate into you should do it every time, does it?

I wonder how much charter flying you've done? Most high-value clients prefer - and pay handsomely to come and go discreetly and without delay and rely on the discretion of the carrier to achieve that, so a bored copper popping up with his notebook out and officiously demanding details "just for the record, sir" -as they sometimes do - is unlikely to impress on occasions. You know the press monitor police radios, so you're asking to attract even more unwanted attention by doing this. Doesn't sound too good an idea to me.

Memo to silsoe sid; before slagging off, please read posts properly, dont make baseless wild assumptions/accusations and maybe engage just a little brain.:=

===================================================

Jim Ball, the act you refer to (Public Order act) was, I think, written to provide a way of dealing with a specific form of Criminal Trespass - namely Hare Coursing. The part you quoted refers specifically to "more than one person" who have refused to leave the land and have "caused damage or loss" or have "more than 6 vehicles on the land", though you'd have thought that all the above was already amply covered by the pre-existing laws, perhaps this illustrates how difficult it must be to prosecute for trespass, even with damage, refusal to leave, and driving all over farmers fields.

It doesn't seem to relate directly to the basiccommon law Trespass, for which you can't be arrested.

(Even so some might advise informing the plod before taking the dog for a walk so they won't have to respond when someone reports you for suspected hare coursing ;))

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 08:55

Agaricus bisporus;

There was me thinking that you were replying in all seriousness and trying to take me down a peg for merely expressing, that out of courtesy, sometimes it might be worth giving the local plod a call, until that is;

You know the press monitor police radios,

and I realised that you didn't really know what you were on about!
:ugh:

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 08:57

Just because you don't have to do something, doesn't mean that you shouldn't!

:ok:

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 09:08

Do we have to call the police before we fire a gun

No, you still need the landowners, this time written, permission.
But wouldn't it still make sense to think about informing the local plod of what you were doing?

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 09:10

Ok so the message may not actually get passed on, but it might still be nice for the local neighbourhood plod to know. After all, they would know what other activities could be going on around your LS, or even give you such advice as, 'I hope you wont be staying there long as there won't be much left if you are!'

Not seen the video of the stones being thrown at the Air Ambo as it's taking off?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/231877-yobs-throw-rocks-air-ambulance.html
or
THUGS TARGET AIR AMBULANCE; Youths even climbed on helicopter while patient was being treated inside. (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/THUGS+TARGET+AIR+AMBULANCE%3B+Youths+even+climbed+on+helicop ter+while...-a0134895857)

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 09:14

Several employers "did not feel the need to". How hard is that to understand? Clearly I did not make their policy.

But what you actually said was;

But inform the Police? Why?
In all the years I flew into sites all over the country with several different companies I don't think we ever thought this necessary, what's it to do with them?

Sounds like, in all those years, you went with it without question. Did the different company policies actually say, 'Do not inform the local plod'?
Were you not allowed to express and practise your own 'airmanship' ?

I say again - "Just because you don't have to do something, doesn't mean that you shouldn't!"

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 09:22

Finally, as the dishwasher needs emptying, I guess this sums up Ab, from only 10 days ago;

I for one have never "seen" a risk assessment in my life,..

I thought a risk asessment was a bull**** phrase for bureaucrats just to say "no".

permalink (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/412103-ash-clouds-threaten-air-traffic-post5677229.html#post5677229)

:eek:

I guess that's what being a mushroom is all about :ok:

thecontroller

17th May 2010, 10:09

I landed at a hotel the other day for lunch and was told i had to fill in a form with all my details for the local police, as the police want to keep a track of these things. I wasn't very happy about this, the hotel said "the police has asked us to do this". I'm not sure of the legalities of this, data protection etc.

(It was a private flight and PPR had been arranged with the hotel well in advance)

ShyTorque

17th May 2010, 10:22

Rattle, As will have noted, this has often been a contentious issue and there is usually some dispute amongst contributors here! :rolleyes:

I have been flying helicopters under both military and civilian rules for quite a long time (since the late 1970s); also under police ANO exemptions.

The best advice I can give is that it appears to be a grey area in UK law, so it's always best to ask in advance. If you do that, you will at least gauge the likely response of the landowner. Even with his/her prior permission, you will be expected to ensure 100% that no-one is endangered or upset, or put to expense, by any actions of yourself.

If you also inform the local police in advance and obtain an incident number (a simple routine phone call; don't abuse the 999 system to do it), you are covering your backside and hopefully preventing the police from unecessarily sending resources to investigate an incorrectly reported aircraft accident by a well meaning but poorly informed member of the public. The local non-emergency police numbers are published in the back of the Pooley's Guide or can be found by an internet search or in Yellow Pages.

Hope this helps. :)

JimBall

17th May 2010, 11:10

Blimey - so this one pops up again. Since Rattle's original 06 post we have of course been introduced to the new anti-terror laws.

So - imagine that you land without permission, get asked to leave and refuse. The landowner calls the police. They arrive to be greeted by your bolshie self quoting the ANO, no police authority, no law of trespass etc.

Any police officer would take that as an invitation to detain you under the anti-terror legislation. That's why they are telling hotels to provide details of helicopter movements - because they can.

And now that Lord West has disappeared with the old govt, let's hope we get some sense into the legislation. But I doubt it.

thecontroller

17th May 2010, 13:07

Considering you can get arrested for taking photographs these days, it's probably wise to get PPR before landing anywhere. If not from the landowner, then from the tenant, or anyone who would be affected by your landing (neighbors with horses etc). It's just common sense and courtesy. Not everyone likes helicopters turning up nearby like we do.

Sam Rutherford

17th May 2010, 14:01

My question was about the UK. Here in Belgium they're VERY anti-rotary. Actually, they're pretty anti-everything lighter than about 20T!

Why call Plod? In case someone calls them to say they've seen a helicopter 'crash' - in theory they can bring up your info and give you a call to check all okay.

There appears to still be a lack of clarity. CAA want PPR, the law doesn't?

As an example, landing on a beach - do I need the local council (or the Queen's) okay - or can I just go ahead and do it?

Cheers, Sam.

chopjock

17th May 2010, 14:35

So there you are one day, grovelling along in poor vis and you have to put down in a field. It would be somewhat impractical to get ppr from the land owner. It would be just as impractical to inform the police. Then IF the land owner comes over and asks you to leave three times and you can't yet, it would be nice to know the law and where you stand.
Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times and have never once been asked to leave. Sometimes even offered a cup of tea! :ok:

thecontroller

17th May 2010, 14:48

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/334144-landing-beaches-uk-rules.html

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/174131-landing-uk-beaches.html

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 16:23

So there you are one day, grovelling along in poor vis and you have to put down in a field.

Yawn,
chopjock, don't pretend that you don't know that your example is a totally different kettle of fish.

Look around and you'll find reference that pilots should not fear litigation when encountering deteriorating weather conditions or other state of emergency and it is only reasonable that any consequent damage to the property is compensated for. As a 'chop jock' you'll know your footprint will be little to none.

:rolleyes:

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 16:29

So there you are one day, grovelling along in poor vis and you have to put down in a field....
...Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times and have never once been asked to leave.

Would you like a Met refresher course?

nigelh

17th May 2010, 17:36

Silsoe ...is this a wind up or are just daft ??? Your idea of notifying plod is completely idiotic :ugh: What is it about some of the pilots on here that makes them lose the power of common sense and judgement for themselves !! I have flown around this country for years and have never heard of any problems ........... We,ve had the NSea taxi drivers worrying about ash and wanting someone in authority to hold their hand and tell them when to fly ....now we,ve got you trying to involve the police in something that is NOTHING to do with them ....and NEVER should be :ugh: Surely the CAA are enough for us to contend with .

ps just read your post above ....now you dont have to answer my question above .....it wasnt a wind up was it !!!!

chopjock

17th May 2010, 19:14

Would you like a Met refresher course?

Silso, do you only fly when the weather is fine? I suppose you never encounter unexpected bad wx then? Never had to put down somewhere? What do you do if there is low cloud in your path, not go?

toptobottom

17th May 2010, 19:32

Never had to put down somewhere?
chopjock, there's no doubt we've all to put down due to unexpected bad wx now and again, but not "hundreds of times" over a 17 year period!!!!!

chopjock

17th May 2010, 19:42

chopjock, there's no doubt we've all to put down due to unexpected bad wx now and again, but not "hundreds of times" over a 17 year period!!!!! I never said that I have had to put down hundreds of times due to bad weather though.:)

F.A.TAlbert

17th May 2010, 19:51

Encountered unexpected weather en-route? Nope......I have frequently encountered weather that has been worse than I had anticipated and in which case I either diverted, flew around or simply went back for a nice cup of coffee and a wad. Put down en-route.......naw too embarrassing isn't it chopjock. Well I would feel so anyway and certainly its the icing on the cake for those accusers of unproffessional standards. Do you suffer from 'gethomeitis' by any chance?:}

Dantruck

17th May 2010, 19:52

toptobottom

I've told you a thousand times...don't exaggerate!

Sorry...:E

Dan

toptobottom

17th May 2010, 20:04

toptobottom

17th May 2010, 20:06

Dantruck

I've told you a thousand times...don't exaggerate!

I know, I know - but hey - I'm just a heli pilot! DOH!! There I go, exaggerating again!! :E

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 20:32

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have read, "Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times" and though it to mean that in 17 years of flying, chopjock has had to put down hundreds of times.

So what does,"Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times" actually translate to?

Dantruck

17th May 2010, 20:36

I myself have only opted to put it on the deck just once due wx since beginning in this caper circa 1996....and of all places, t'was in so-called sunny Spain.

There I was, in the hills not far north of Cordoba (great little airport if you ever get the time) bumbling southbound from Cuatro Vientos (Madrid) in my R44 when all manner of fluffy grey stuff encircled me. "Bugger this for a game of soldiers" I explained to the px as I simultaneously bent it into a right-hand steep turn looking for a safe spot...just as I'd been taught. Anyone famiilar with those parts will attest all there was, and is...is olive trees, each a perfect 40ft apart, in serried rows, as far as the horizon. Suffice to say, it was a confined area landing, and on very private farmland to boot.

Did el farmer complain?...did he f@{k. Neither he or his goat ever turned up, and he wouldn't have given a tapas either way if he did, truth be told.

Point is: do as would be expected locally. Call UK Plod if you will, but don't then be surprised when he yawns down the phone in excitement. Sid...your 'airmanship' is to be applauded, but you must be a dot on that thin blue line, or completely out of touch...or both...if you think the average, well intended, UK pilot's pre-report will ever get passed on to anyone. Truly:=

Fly safe...and stay clear of the olive oil whatever you do:ok:

Dan

Whirlygig

17th May 2010, 20:39

It's not so much the putting down, but putting down without being asked to leave which implies no PPR. However, chopjock does not specifically state that all these "put downs" were due to bad weather so some could have been due to mechanical problems, being lost, fancying a fag and a cuppa or a nice snooze.

Cheers

Whirls

chopjock

17th May 2010, 20:46

Silso and TTB,
So what does,"Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times" actually translate to?translates to: "Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times"Doesn't say anything about bad wx.:)

Would anyone want to know why anyone would want to purposely put down regularly in perfectly good weather?

Whirls is pretty close.

Whirlygig

17th May 2010, 20:52

Not your land and without permission?

Cheers

Whirls

chopjock

17th May 2010, 20:53

Not your land and without permission?

Cheers

Whirls Pretty much spot on (I dropped in for fuel at Leics on Sat evening, sorry I missed you!)

Whirlygig

17th May 2010, 20:58

I hope not because I was extracting the micturation. :eek:

Cheers

Whirls

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 21:07

Silso, do you only fly when the weather is fine? I suppose you never encounter unexpected bad wx then? Never had to put down somewhere? What do you do if there is low cloud in your path, not go?

In answer to chopjocks questions;

1. No, but I give flight a second thought when the weather is nearing three times my legal limits.

2. Correct, thorough pre-flight briefing would probably be the reason why. Never unexpected bad weather, but anticipated weather problems en-route.

3. No, not yet, but it's an option I'm always prepared to take, especially as these days most of my flights are ad-hoc.

4.
a. Well, for the first 4 years of my flying career as an observer, I/we never encountered the situation where the pilot was caught out and had to put down. [See answer 2] (could have been interesting over the jungle or sea)

b. For the first 13 years of my flying career as a pilot, I had the option to fly through or over it.

c. For the last 7 years, I have had the option of punching up and returning to base. However, if the weather is bad, freezing levels are low, CBs around etc, I get caught out and there is a field handy, of course I'd land.

What would I then do? Inform both ATC and the Police. Closely followed by a pub recce, purely to locate the land owner of course, because I'd need their permission to take off!
;)

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 21:19

Classic, nice one Whirlygig :D

Right, so chopjock didn't put down hundreds of times in 17 years because of the weather. Which begs the question, would you fly around with someone who has to land hundreds of times because of mechanical problems, being lost, fancying a fag and a cuppa or a nice snooze?

Because that, or something very close, is what he/she is now telling us. :eek:

It's not the weather, so we are now being told, despite starting a post with, 'So there you are one day, grovelling along in poor vis and you have to put down in a field' and ending with the immortal line...'Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times'.

chopjock

17th May 2010, 21:31

Silsoe
It's not the weather, so we are now being told, despite starting a post with, 'So there you are one day, grovelling along in poor vis and you have to put down in a field' and ending with the immortal line...'Out of all the 17 years I have been flying, I have put down hundreds of times'. Two different sentences. There is a full stop between the two statements.
Also,
Which begs the question, would you fly around with someone who has to land hundreds of times because of mechanical problems, being lost, fancying a fag and a cuppa or a nice snooze?None of those, but like I said, close!:) (Well I have had a couple of mechanical problems! and I don't smoke)

Whirlygig

17th May 2010, 21:37

Weak bladder :uhoh:

Cheers

Whirls

SilsoeSid

17th May 2010, 21:45

Two different sentences.

In fact, two different paragraphs :p

Anyhool, I guess that's chopjocks digging rate slowing :rolleyes:

Back to topic, if you don't need the landowners permission to land, do you need it to take off?

chopjock

17th May 2010, 21:50

Weak bladderNo, but when flying 3 hr sorties I often take a p155 when I put down in fine wx for the other reason. :}

John Eacott

17th May 2010, 21:58

Our Civil Aviation Safety Authority has a foot note in all references to landings, which reminds/cautions pilots that Local Laws (used to be By-Laws) must be complied with. Here in Victoria helipads require Planning Permission, which then opens a can of worms over what is a helipad!

SS point about notifying Police is a moot point. I had one (approved) landing where the local Bill turned up some time later following a report of a helicopter crashing: my landings weren't all that bad ;) Another landing had a pair of young Constables maintaining "you can't land there, because we said so" which got very short shrift from me. Much as I initially tried to be nice....

Quite often around Melbourne the permission from CASA for specific low flying would include a requirement to notify the Police, and work around Docklands would need liaison with the Docks Authority. Probably to stop the dockers walking out on strike because of their perceived exposure to crashing helicopters: but it all worked well, and reduced the chance of misunderstandings in the long run.

I never bothered to ring Mr Plod unless something exceptional was planned: a routine landing would not come into that criteria IMO :=

ShyTorque

18th May 2010, 08:39

I never bothered to ring Mr Plod unless something exceptional was planned: a routine landing would not come into that criteria IMO

John, I agree but as I wrote earlier, the UK CAA make informing the local police a written condition of the granting of a landing permission in a congested area (i.e. for exemption from the UK Air Navigation Order's "Not below 1,000ft overflight of a congested area" rule).

SuperF

18th May 2010, 10:31

hi all

had a big long novel to post but computers, what can i say:ugh:

anyway, agree with john 100%

hey look, i'm new here, how long does that last?? :confused:

Aucky

27th Aug 2011, 20:30

This may be a silly question, but who (if anyone) do you have to get permission from to land on Commons, and open expanses of land in the Dales, Moors, Peaks, Pennines etc.. where the land is not privately owned and not part of a nature reserve - Local councils?

I remember being asked to land on a common in Bakewell (near sheffield) and through lack of understanding on who to contact, and lack of time to enquire on the matter I phoned a nearby farmer who was happy to let me land for free in his field, but it just occurred to me that I never got to the bottom of it... I seem to recall phoning the local council and they had no idea what I was on about...

Also what is the most straight forward way of finding out who owns an area of land if there are no buildings or people in close vicinity with local knowledge. I suspect this is not simple to answer and is circumstantial, with no quick solution...

Cheers

hands_on123

27th Aug 2011, 21:09

this might help...

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/255592-land-owners-permission.html

Open Spaces Society | Commons (http://www.oss.org.uk/commons/)

ShyTorque

28th Aug 2011, 17:12

I seem to recall phoning the local council and they had no idea what I was on about...

Local councils know absolutely nothing about the subject of helicopter landings.

I do know that they have the power to impose restrictions on common land. Some of the areas where I was once free to roam on my Enduro motorcycle are now re-classified as "Restricted Byways". Setting one wheel on there will now put a motorcyclist at risk of prosecution.

The answer is not to create a situation where someone will complain.

azeman

5th Mar 2013, 23:42

if i owned a helicopter would i be allowed to land anywhere that is safe and would bring no danger to others? for example an open field or a car park?

Bravo73

5th Mar 2013, 23:46

No.

At the very least, you need the landowner's permission.

Heliport

6th Mar 2013, 08:14

Bravo73No.

At the very least, you need the landowner's permission.

Why do you need that?

Bravo73

6th Mar 2013, 08:36

Can I pitch up in a helicopter in any 'open field' or 'car park'? No, I can't.

Will I need permission then? In this country, almost certainly.

Who should I ask? Well, the land owner seems the best place to start.

Do I need permission? Well, I imagine that a lawyer is about to tell me that no, technically, I don't. Because it isn't written down somewhere.

In practice, do I actually need to get permission? Well, yes. Because lots of people don't like random helicopters (or other vehicles) pitching up on their property without permission.

(Do I want to get into some sort of legal ding dong because somebody resurrected a 7 year old thread without directly answering the question? Hell no!)