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View Full Version : Q on international enforcement of airspace violations


IO540
8th Dec 2006, 13:21
Just wondering how this works, whether there is an ICAO provision for this.

Let's say you bust some airspace in France and then land in the UK. There are several options:

a) the DGAC asks the CAA to prosecute you on their evidence

b) the DGAC prosecutes you in your absence and the CAA enforces the judgement of the French Court

c) the DGAC can shout but can't actually do anything, all the time you never go to France

In case anybody is wondering, I haven't done anything :) Just curious how it works.

A few years ago I busted a TRA in France; about 6 months later (when all detailed records of the flight, including notams, were long binned) the CAA wrote asking who was the pilot. I requested the radar plots which showed the transgression but also showed, from the squawk, that I was under a radar service at the time, yet the French ATC said nothing at the time. It was resolved with no real action taken but I did wonder what could happen.

Recently a Belgian pilot got done a few k by the CAA for busting the Eastbourne air display TRA, but he chose to come to the UK for the court hearing.

IO540
15th Dec 2006, 08:07
not a lot of takers on this one, it seems :)

pistongone
15th Dec 2006, 12:12
I had an intersting experience a few years back! I flew from Stapleford to Plymouth in the PA32 and i had radar and squawks all the way there and back.So i was a little mystified when RAF Nettishead called to ask why i had been in French airspace, apparently the French had requested this? I called and spoke with Sqdrn Leader someone or other, and i explained that i had worked civil and military radar all the way there and back. I also expressed concern at the apparent inability of the RAF, who should surely have been able to gleen as much without the need for a call to the clubb, casting unwarranted aspersions on our trip! IIRC the furthest we flew over water was a couple of miles off shore by portland bill, towards the isle of white, keeping out of the solen zone!
Any one had similar calls from the Mil?

niknak
15th Dec 2006, 13:41
Its normal practice for the Authority of another nation to inform the CAA of your transgression and then, depending on the alleged offence, the UK CAA will take appropriate action and inform the original reporter of their solutions.

Unless you've flown through a Presidential Motorcade baring your nether regions as you do so, it's very unlikely that anyone will hold it against you.
If the CAA knock on your door and lay out the facts and you know you've made a mistake rather than a deliberate act, admit it and take the advice they give you.

If you are guilty and deny it, the CAA will report their findings back as above and you should be aware that some Nations have longer memories than others......

Cobalt
15th Dec 2006, 14:43
This happened some way back when I lived in Germany, had a German PPL (pre-JAR), no IR, and was flying a D-Reg PA28

On a VFR flight across France to Germany, I got myself into a bad pickle weatherwise :uhoh: and decided to land in a field instead of pressing on and entering IMC - no other way out that I could see.:(

This of course is highly visible - gendarmerie, local press, and their AAIB all were on the scene, but no harm done, and next day we re-launched the aircraft and went on.

The French CAA looked at the incident, wrote a report (in French) to the German CAA (LBA) saying that, with the weather reports that I had, I should have expected the bad weather (which I did) and not taken off or diverted much earlier (which i didn't), so I deserved "at least a severe admonishment" or a penalty in their view. := From that point, it was in the LBA's court.

The German LBA forwarded this letter and a translation to me with the request to comment and a letter effectively being a notice of intention to prosecute. After outlining my sequence of events, which pretty much agreed with the French, as well as agreed with their view that I should have turned around a lot earlier (duh!) and being worded with genuine "I have learned my lesson" attitude, the LBA then closed the case without further prosecution - which in these cases is probably best practice, because prosecuting this sort of thing beyond a "written warning" is stupid as it sends entirely the wrong message to VFR Pilots in marginal weather.

So in my experience, the foreign CAA tells your CAA what happened, and your CAA prosecutes you or not based on their practices and based on the facts, i.e. in theory it should not be that different from a local incident. Don't know what the UK CAA will do with letters in French, though, they might go straight into the bin, or if they care as much about the Paris TMA as they care about London ;-)

Wether the above is true for more serious things like landing unannounced at Charles de Gaulle after flying loopings on their three mile final I don't know, they probably will arrest you on the spot and want to prosecute that directly.

david viewing
15th Dec 2006, 16:14
I suppose many of us would imagine that if any European authority would be likely to come down on you like a ton of bricks, it would be the UK CAA...
A little different to the quote from an FAA spokeswoman at the end of this story (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=b4831587-6e57-4d08-bfd2-820d3f49baa5&). And that in response to an aircraft allegedly 22 years out of maintenance, an unlicensed pilot, and crashing into a house after running out of car fuel! (allegedly).

IO540
15th Dec 2006, 16:48
David

He reminds me of those Japanese soldiers who carried on in the jungle, thinking that WW2 has not yet ended. I am sure the CAA would have done him with a 4/5-figure fine+costs.

However, that article is a misleading representation re safety issues. He was not an A&P so he could not do Annuals, ADs, etc, but he could (and obviously did, otherwise the plane would not have gone on for those years) pilot maintenance.

Great many engines on the CAA Private G-reg fleet have not had their crankcases opened for 20-30 years. If the compression checks, it's OK.

So, the difference is the Annual. What is special about an Annual? It's just a load of extra stuff to check, lubricate, etc. There are ADs to do but on an old simple plane there are unlikely to be many that are safety critical.

So, it's quite possible that this plane was in reality in exactly the same safety condition as if it has been to a maintenance shop every year, etc. It's perfectly possible for a reasonably mechanically minded person to maintain a simple plane to the same actual level as regulation requires and he would probably do a better job of it (it's just illegal).

Back to the subject, is there some ICAO provision for shifting the prosecution to the country of registry? The ICAO docs are online (http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/)but not searchable.

Kirstey
18th Dec 2006, 09:42
I love everyone's completely misguided opinion on the UK CAA. Do ANY of you have any experience of the legal team. Does anyone know ANYONE who has been prosecuted for any indiscretions? I know it happens, but I've never once thought "bit harsh".

Did any of you take the chance to meet the CAA at the "Future of GA" conference back in November?

IO540
18th Dec 2006, 16:29
Allright Kirstey what do you think the UK CAA would do with somebody flying without a license, in a plane whose CofA expired some years previously?

WorkingHard
19th Dec 2006, 19:37
"Do ANY of you have any experience of the legal team?"
Yes Kirstey, what would you like to know please? How they are very good at leading questions, how they are very good at slightly misquoting regulations, or how when they are proved absolutely conclusively they are wrong do they send a one sentence letter "This file is now closed"

david viewing
20th Dec 2006, 13:10
Kirstey I should think some of us would recall this famous case (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220752&highlight=caa+prosecute). Whilst I completely appreciate that every story has two sides, it's very unlikely that the FAA would have reacted as the CAA reportedly did here.
In particular FAA rules are designed to prevent maintenance organisations holding owner's property hostage and also help expedite the provision of ferry permits.
I believe that the CAA deserve much of the press that they get and it is good that they are making some effort to listen to GA as in the recent and excellent conference. One way they can improve matters is by noting how the FAA, with it's apparently superior GA safety record, balances the reward/punishment ratio.

Whopity
21st Dec 2006, 20:57
The State in which you infringe will be the one who brings the action. In the case of the French DGAC they normally report the infringement to the UK CAA if the infringer is a G registered aircraft, or if the pilot has a UK licence and is flying a F registered aircraft!

The UK CAA invite the individual for a voluntary interview; the individual has the right to refuse, to go alone or with a representitive. The CAA has no power to do anything but may offer the infringer some sort of remedial package such as additional training and or a test. If the infringer accepts this, it will be reported to the DGAC and the case will most likely be closed.

If the Infringer opts to ignore the CAA then the DGAC will invariably take action in the French courts; fines can be up to 15000 Euros for a TRA infringement or more if deliberate.

IO540
22nd Dec 2006, 07:04
Whopity

You have described the actual situation. I just wondered, in my original Q, whether there is some international law or ICAO underpinning to all this.

Let's say the DGAC take you to court. To enforce the judgement, would they have to apply for an extradition along the normal lines, or is there another process which is available to aviation offences specifically?

Kit d'Rection KG
22nd Dec 2006, 10:41
In my experience, ARE don't act in the majority of cases which they look at, and only go for the 'dead cert's. This is understandbable, given the difficulty involved in getting laymen to understand the intricacies of aviation, its regulatory environment, and the practical application of the rules.

Whopity
22nd Dec 2006, 12:52
If you commit a road traffic offence in France what happens? in the main unless its serious, you will probably get away with it. If an infringement was serious enough they would extradite you and take you to court but the process is expensive, hence the way it currently works. When we get the United States of Europe it will presumably become easier!

Cathar
22nd Dec 2006, 17:03
IO540
Article 12 of the Chicago Convention is relevant to your question. It requires that:
Each contracting State undertakes to adopt measures to insure that every aircraft flying over or manoeuvring within in it territory and that every aircraft carrying its nationality mark, wherever such aircraft may be, shall comply with the rules and regulations relating to the flight and manoeuvre of aircraft there in force. Each contracting State undertakes to keep its own regulations in these respects uniform with those established from time to time under this Convention. Over the high seas, the rules in force shall be those established under this Convention. Each Contracting State undertakes to insure the prosecution of all persons violating the regulations applicable.
As I read this places an equal obligation on the State of Registry and the State in which the incident occurred to ensure that offenders are prosecuted.
Whopity has suggested that the CAA has no power to take action in respect of offences committed overseas in G registered aircraft. It was not clear to me whether this comment was just in respect of TRA infringements or it covered all offence. As you are no doubt aware, the majority of the provisions of the Air Navigation Order, Rules of the Air Regulations etc have extra territorial application and apply to aircraft registered in the UK wherever they may be. The CAA therefore have the power to prosecute incidents which happen abroad if such incidents constitute a breach of the ANO.

IO540
22nd Dec 2006, 20:43
Interesting, Cathar.

Each Contracting State undertakes to insure the prosecution of all persons violating the regulations applicable.

The question is whether the local-airspace penalties also need to be enforced (by the country of aircraft reg or of the pilot license). I am sure the answer to that is NO.

For example, the penalty in France for busting one of the nuclear TRAs is something silly like Euro 10,000 or aircraft confiscation (no reference; this is forum rumour). I don't see the UK CAA confiscating the plane on behalf of the DGAC. It is slightly more likely they would fine the pilot Euro 10,000 but again unlikely; even high profile widely publicised busts like the Eastbourne one (which caused a real problem) drew a much smaller fine.

Busting some UK TRA by flying a few hundred m inside it horizontally, or 300ft too low through the top of it, isn't likely to result in such a fine even if prosecuted (which is itself unlikely).

The business of confiscation is also fraught with problems, IMHO. If Joe Bloggs owns the plane and does the bust while PIC, it's clear. But what if Joe Bloggs lent/rented the plane to the pilot? Under UK law, the plane would not get confiscated then (AIUI). Then you have Joe Bloggs on board but not PIC at the time....

zkdli
23rd Dec 2006, 08:28
All,
The talk here is of the CAA A.R.E fining the pilots etc. The CAA does not fine anyone:) The CAA takes them to court if they decide it is necessary
and the Magistrates fine people.
Speaking to Magistrates, the amount they fine peolpe is based on that person's ability to pay and is a multiplie of their weekly/monthly earnings. If someone was fined £1800.00 pounds, that would be a multiple of there earnings (after I think, deductions for essentials).
I know that CAA ARE prefer to use other methods than the courts and in the case of infirngements where ATCOs have filed CA939 paperwork they normally try to use training methods rather than the big stick of court.

Flyin'Dutch'
23rd Dec 2006, 21:23
I am not a legal eagle but I doubt that a national regulator is a party in any case where the alleged offence took place outside their jurisdiction.

In the same way that you will not be 'done' in an English court for a speeding offence on the Continent.

If you bust a French TRA they will have to prosecute you in France. Fairly well publicised case about 10 years ago where a French parachutist fell through a British glider wing. The chaps were invited to go to court in France.

IIRC they went but if they hadn't gone I doubt that they could have been forced.

Certainly don't think that the CAA could have taken any action against them.

IO540
24th Dec 2006, 08:58
Was that the case where the parachutist was a son of a high ranking French military officer, and was illegally parachuting through IMC?